Progressives always talk about mininum wage

[thereisnospoon]

Only a small percentage of workers make actual minimum wage. A much larger number makes a little above minimum wage.

How much difference does it really make if you are paid 8 bucks an hour vs 7.25?

And I really like the way you right wingers go after the low income folk. First you think low income people are your personal sworn enemy if they get welfare. Then when they go out and get a minimum wage job, ( the only job they qualify for) you think they are pieces of shit because they need food stamps to eat, then you say for them to just get a job paying more money while they work hard at their minimum wage jobs trying to survive. Then when they want to be paid enough money for their labor that they don't need food stamps, you all act like they are robbing YOU.

Poor people can't win with you rethugs. No matter how hard they work.

Define "go after"..
You are another one of these 'magic wand' ( just waive the wand and pay them more) people who has no clue what it takes to run a business and operate at a profit.

 

[thereisnospoon]

I have a really hard time taking someone's views on economic policy seriously if they've advocated for minimum wage laws

Agreed. Market forces. FED needs to keep their noses out of it.

That's just what the fast food workers are doing now. Using labor market forces to effect their labor market rate. Why hell, they might even form or join a union to represent their interests in the market.
I'm sure you support union representation for labor? Labor, being just another "commodity" needs to be professionally represented for both the benefit of the company and the worker.

No they aren't. They are using threats of mob rule to make demands which in the end are unrealistic.
And you can forget the unions. They are powerless to do anything.
You people forget that most fast food restaurants are owned by independent franchisees. Furthermore, half of the states in the US are right to work.
In any event, even if a union such as the UFCW attempted to organize fast food workers in say New Jersey, the union would have to deal with several hundred franchisees. Not only that, the business owners would have to agree to meet with the union reps. The owner is under no obligation to make this happen. All he has to do is wait out the employees who wanted to join to screw up. Not do their job, call in sick one too many times, show up late, or any other number of violations of company policy....And out the door they go.


Unions are a big pain in the ass. Hence the reason why only about 7% of private sector workers are represented by labor collectives. Unions are on their way out.

 

[thereisnospoon]

Wonder how long that will last?

Please elaborate.

Maybe I'm just in a pessimistic mood, but with government mandating every other thing under the sun, how long before they're telling us which jobs to take?

"By the power vested in me as the President of the United States, I, Barack Obama, so do order..."

 

[Rct_Tsoul]

The key to minimum wage or not paying a living wage for your area is ....Who makes up the difference?

If you don't pay your workers a wage on which they can support themselves or their families, it is the taxpayer who steps in to pay housing subsidies, food stamps for medical care

THe business profits off of substandard wages and leaves it up to the taxpayer to make up the difference

This is the only way you can remain competitive as a business, if you were to pay an economically viable wage 1950's style, your competitor will pay minimum wage and overtake you, once you eliminate your competitor, you keep it at minimum wage and enjoy the spoils.

Prostitution
Child Prostitution
Obedience
Power
Influence

In the end, less natural resources are being used by the sheeple, thus saving you money and protecting the environment.

 

[OnePercenter]

the price of labor should be set by supply and demand, just like anything else. If your skills are minimal then you get minimal pay, if you have a lot of skills, you get top pay.

Why should an employer go out of business in order to pay a low skilled employee a wage that should be reserved for a highly skilled employee?

Where does it say that an employer is required to support his employees?

No one is forced to work for any rate of pay.

You are mixing two topics with your left wing bullshit about "looking out for our least fortunate". Thats what charities and churches are for, and they do a much better job of it than the government.

So let me guess. You're one of those old, 'I've got mine so fuck the rest of you' sociopaths?

Yeah, I've got mine, and I worked very hard for many years to get it. I worked 80 hour weeks and 14 hour days, so don't give me your liberal shit. I also give to my church and several charities in order to help the "less fortunate".

But back to minimum wage. Why not make it $100/hour? Then everyone could live an upper middle class lifestyle. Better yet, lets give every citizen $4K per week whether they work or not, that would be "fair", right?

Your big Mac would cost $150 but everyone would be getting a "living wage" right?

Well, no because the price of everything would go up and your big income would not buy any more than it buys today.

Your entire liberal philosophy is nothing but bullshit.

Apples to apples, your Kids and your Grand Kids are not going to do as well financially as you. This has to do with your failed voting record if you voted Republican. Some legacy your leaving.

If minimum wage from 1970 to today would have kept up with cost of living, minimum wage would be $23.50/hr.

Raising minimum wage to $23.50/hr would increase GDP by $170B/yr.

I've NEVER promoted handouts, but keep in mind that for every dollar of welfare spent on people, $1.50 is returned to the economy. Because unlike corporate welfare, it's spent to contribute to the economy.

As we've discussed on USMB, McDonalds workers in North Dakota make $16.00/hr, but the cost of the Big Mac is the same as anywhere in the US. Employee costs are 100% subsidized.

Prices have gone up, and wages haven't. Something has to be done.

 

[OnePercenter]

Agreed. Market forces. FED needs to keep their noses out of it.

That's just what the fast food workers are doing now. Using labor market forces to effect their labor market rate. Why hell, they might even form or join a union to represent their interests in the market.
I'm sure you support union representation for labor? Labor, being just another "commodity" needs to be professionally represented for both the benefit of the company and the worker.

No they aren't. They are using threats of mob rule to make demands which in the end are unrealistic.
And you can forget the unions. They are powerless to do anything.
You people forget that most fast food restaurants are owned by independent franchisees. Furthermore, half of the states in the US are right to work.
In any event, even if a union such as the UFCW attempted to organize fast food workers in say New Jersey, the union would have to deal with several hundred franchisees. Not only that, the business owners would have to agree to meet with the union reps. The owner is under no obligation to make this happen. All he has to do is wait out the employees who wanted to join to screw up. Not do their job, call in sick one too many times, show up late, or any other number of violations of company policy....And out the door they go.


Unions are a big pain in the ass. Hence the reason why only about 7% of private sector workers are represented by labor collectives. Unions are on their way out.

Too bad. In 1956 we had a great year for the economy and the middle class. All do to pro-Union Republicans.

 

[edthecynic]

Same reason the GOP National Debt went up an average of $650 billion per year while Bush claimed an average deficit of $300 billion per year.

Yes, it is. There was no surplus. They ... wait for it ... lied.

There never was a budget surplus during the Clinton admin. There was a whole bunch of creative accounting though.

Creative accounting the Right has no trouble accepting 100% when GOP presidents use it!!! Bush used the same raiding of the SS Surplus to make his deficits appear smaller until the SS Surplus ran out in FY 2009.

 

[Mac1958]

Where in the world have you gotten the idea that someone HAS to work for someone?

Who told you this?

Is this serious?

.

Where in the WORLD do Statist Libtards get the idea that companies ONLY exist to give people jobs, and the EMPLOYEE dictates terms when they are not qualified to receive a payraise contrary to what the market dictates?

Nobody gives someone a job. They receive labor from which they derive profit. You make a profit off of every employee. It is the employee who is giving you something

What?

You make a profit off of every employee?

What, preciseliy, makes you thnk that?

And a business doesn't give someone a job? Does that mean that anyone should be able force someone to employ them?

Have you ever run a business? Have you ever come close to running a business?

And I sure would like an answer to my original question: Do you see any down side to arbitrarily doubling the minimum wage?

I also asked earlier where you heard that someone has to work for someone else, that they can't work elsewhere.

I've asked several reasonable questions, could you answer them for me?

I can't believe what I'm seeing here.

.

 

[ba1614]

Where in the WORLD do Statist Libtards get the idea that companies ONLY exist to give people jobs, and the EMPLOYEE dictates terms when they are not qualified to receive a payraise contrary to what the market dictates?

Nobody gives someone a job. They receive labor from which they derive profit. You make a profit off of every employee. It is the employee who is giving you something

What?

You make a profit off of every employee?

What, preciseliy, makes you thnk that?

And a business doesn't give someone a job? Does that mean that anyone should be able force someone to employ them?

Have you ever run a business? Have you ever come close to running a business?

And I sure would like an answer to my original question: Do you see any down side to arbitrarily doublilng the minimum wage?

I also asked earlier where you heard that someone has to work for someone else, that they can't work elsewhere.

I've asked several reasonable questions, could you answer them for me?

I can't believe what I'm seeing here.

.

As you mentioned above, it's incredibly easy to see who has never ran a business and dealt with all that goes into it.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Nobody gives someone a job. They receive labor from which they derive profit. You make a profit off of every employee. It is the employee who is giving you something

What?

You make a profit off of every employee?

What, preciseliy, makes you thnk that?

And a business doesn't give someone a job? Does that mean that anyone should be able force someone to employ them?

Have you ever run a business? Have you ever come close to running a business?

And I sure would like an answer to my original question: Do you see any down side to arbitrarily doublilng the minimum wage?

I also asked earlier where you heard that someone has to work for someone else, that they can't work elsewhere.

I've asked several reasonable questions, could you answer them for me?

I can't believe what I'm seeing here.

.

As you mentioned above, it's incredibly easy to see who has never ran a business and dealt with all that goes into it.

This is why economics 101 and Business needs to be part of public education. People are to stupid these days.

 

[Mac1958]

Nobody gives someone a job. They receive labor from which they derive profit. You make a profit off of every employee. It is the employee who is giving you something

What?

You make a profit off of every employee?

What, preciseliy, makes you thnk that?

And a business doesn't give someone a job? Does that mean that anyone should be able force someone to employ them?

Have you ever run a business? Have you ever come close to running a business?

And I sure would like an answer to my original question: Do you see any down side to arbitrarily doublilng the minimum wage?

I also asked earlier where you heard that someone has to work for someone else, that they can't work elsewhere.

I've asked several reasonable questions, could you answer them for me?

I can't believe what I'm seeing here.

.

As you mentioned above, it's incredibly easy to see who has never ran a business and dealt with all that goes into it.

They're making all kinds of statements that prove they simply don't know what they're talking about, claims that are obviously based on nothing more than ideology and ignorance, and then they won't answer my direct and reasonable questions.

I wish they would just come out and admit that they don't like private business, and that no facts are going to change their minds.

What concerns me is how many people really believe this stuff.

Sometimes I regret ever having read a thread, and this is one of those times.

.

 

[Mac1958]

.

This would be like me attacking an auto mechanic for the way he tears apart a transmission, when I have no fucking idea how to tear apart a transmission. Worse, I then arbitrarily create barriers that make it far more difficult for him to tear apart a transmission, then call him a whiner for complaining about it.

This is fucking madness.

.

 

[ba1614]

.

This would be like me attacking an auto mechanic for the way he tears apart a transmission, when I have no fucking idea how to tear apart a transmission. Worse, I then arbitrarily create barriers that make it far more difficult for him to tear apart a transmission, then call him a whiner for complaining about it.

This is fucking madness.

.

And they would really freak out because the evil transmission shop owner charged a couple more bucks to deal with those barriers.

 

[editec]

Basically all debates about wages and compensation are really debates about WEALTH DISTRIBUTION.

Inflation can confuse the issue, of course, but it still comes down to how TODAYS PIE (I note it as today's pie because we all agree the pie change size over time) will be divided among the people.

Increasing wages have never caused inflation, fyi.

Increasing wages CANNOT cause inflation.

If you just stop for moment you realize that demanding (or even getting) higher wages does NOT CREATE new money.

ONLY BORROWING creates new money in our system, folks.


THINK about this, folks...because in most cases I am pretty certain that most of you believe that increasing wages CAUSES INFLATION.

Increased wages cannot do that, kiddies.

ONLY the banksters (or the government with the help of the banksters) can create NEW MONEY.

You are incorrect...
Easily explained.

Okay I'm listening

If a business has it's labor costs arbitrarily increased, the business will increase the price of it's goods or services to maintain profit margin.

with ya so far.

They will increase costs IF the market allows for it, Otherwise they decrease profits, or they go out of business

If there is a mass increase in the cost of labor, the same thing occurs on a wider scale.

Perhaps..see above

The bottom line is the more things cost to produce, the more the business must charge for the product. Same goes for service. The more the business pays to provide the service, the higher the cost to the consumer to receive said service.

so far you have attempted to explain that increasing costs causes increasing prices...which may be true, if the MARKET ALLOWS IT.

Your definition of "new money" is also off.

No lad, its not.

New money is the creation of wealth as business and individuals save, spend and invest.
Your 'new money' is new physical currency which is of course just part of the inflation process.

the above says absolutely nothing, ya know.

The other is what is known as an 'over heating economy'...An economy that grows out of balance.

You have forgotten that you were attempting to explain to me where "new Money " come from. so far you have avoided answering that question.

One way to fight the inflation created by a robust economy is to raise interest rates. This slows the rate of borrowing which calms inflation.

The above is NOT explaining where New money comes from.

There is no 'free money'. The idea that business can simply 'pay them more' is absurd.

FREE MONEY?

Now what the fuck are you talking about?

Nice try to bullshit your way, lad, but you don't understand macro, that's for certain.

I'll say it again and perhaps you will get it.

Increasing wages do NOT increase the money supply. How could they?

All increasing wages can do is change the balance of who has the existing money.

New money is created when the people or the government borrow money from a bank at interest.

When a lot of new money is created, more money than can be absorbed by new goods and services...INFLATION happens .

Note that the workers salaries have doodleshit to do with the rising costs in that case?

Rising costs are the result (in that case) of more money chasing the same amount of goods and services.

Thus ends the lesson.

 

[Mac1958]

.

This would be like me attacking an auto mechanic for the way he tears apart a transmission, when I have no fucking idea how to tear apart a transmission. Worse, I then arbitrarily create barriers that make it far more difficult for him to tear apart a transmission, then call him a whiner for complaining about it.

This is fucking madness.

.

And they would really freak out because the evil transmission shop owner charged a couple more bucks to deal with those barriers.

Yes. Then it would be fine if Our Great & Glorious Leaders in Central Planning stepped in and imposed price controls, putting that industry out of business and fully under control of the Government, claiming that private industry just can't handle the responsibility of tearing apart transmissions.

This is amazing.

.

 

[ba1614]

.

This would be like me attacking an auto mechanic for the way he tears apart a transmission, when I have no fucking idea how to tear apart a transmission. Worse, I then arbitrarily create barriers that make it far more difficult for him to tear apart a transmission, then call him a whiner for complaining about it.

This is fucking madness.

.

And they would really freak out because the evil transmission shop owner charged a couple more bucks to deal with those barriers.

Yes. Then it would be fine if Our Great & Glorious Leaders in Central Planning stepped in and imposed price controls, putting that industry out of business and fully under control of the Government, claiming that private industry just can't handle the responsibility of tearing apart transmissions.

This is amazing.

.

"amazing" is one word to use I suppose lol

 

[zeke]

What?

You make a profit off of every employee?

What, preciseliy, makes you thnk that?

And a business doesn't give someone a job? Does that mean that anyone should be able force someone to employ them?

Have you ever run a business? Have you ever come close to running a business?

And I sure would like an answer to my original question: Do you see any down side to arbitrarily doublilng the minimum wage?

I also asked earlier where you heard that someone has to work for someone else, that they can't work elsewhere.

I've asked several reasonable questions, could you answer them for me?

I can't believe what I'm seeing here.

.

As you mentioned above, it's incredibly easy to see who has never ran a business and dealt with all that goes into it.

They're making all kinds of statements that prove they simply don't know what they're talking about, claims that are obviously based on nothing more than ideology and ignorance, and then they won't answer my direct and reasonable questions.

I wish they would just come out and admit that they don't like private business, and that no facts are going to change their minds.

What concerns me is how many people really believe this stuff.

Sometimes I regret ever having read a thread, and this is one of those times.

.

Hell I got time to waste before I do some WORK this AM.

So you are wondering if business makes a profit off every employee. Now maybe that wasn't worded correctly, but if an employee of mine IS NOT contributing to the profit of my jobs, they won't stay around as an employee.

In your business do you continue to pay an employee who is not contributing to your profit goals? Are you so altruistic that you continue to employee people who do not contribute to profitability? Not me, I'll fire your ass.

And why are you so confused about whether business's "give" people a job? They don't. When I hire someone, I am willing to pay for their labor and experience. In exchange, they are willing to use their labor and experience for my benefit in exchange for my dollars. I didn't "give" anyone anything.
I am an employer, not the government.

Now to doubling the minimum wage and what would happen. Don't know and haven't heard of anyone offering to double the minimum wage. One thing for sure, the people who work for minimum wage would be happier. And they would be spending more which would help the economy.

But I am sure you are all concerned that a multi millionaire business owner might not be able to pay himself that multi million dollar bonus IF the owner were to pay a higher minimum wage.

You rethugs sure cling to a failed idea. First it was tax cuts create jobs. You got you tax cuts, jobs didn't happen.
Now its that an increase in minimum wage will crash the economy and make millionaires poor.

All bullshit all the time with you rethugs.

 

[billyerock1991]

Because it doesn't keep up with inflation.

Yet, inflation is the problem, not the wage.

What is (massive) inflation caused by?

Printing Money.

What is printing money caused by?

Borrowing money.

What is borrowing money caused by?

Progressive Programs.

----------------------------------------------------------

So Progressive Programs demands that we borrow, which means we print mass money, which means we get mass inflation, which means wages are weaker; then Progressives try to fix the problem by more government intervention, raising the minimum wage, cause more unemployment, therefore more welfare programs, therefore more borrowing, more money printing, therefore more inflation, therefore even weaker wages.

Rinse and repeat!

------------------------------------------------------------------------

1913, the Progressive Era:

and still you didn't identify the spenders either now did ya

 

[Mac1958]

Hell I got time to waste before I do some WORK this AM.

So you are wondering if business makes a profit off every employee. Now maybe that wasn't worded correctly, but if an employee of mine IS NOT contributing to the profit of my jobs, they won't stay around as an employee.

In your business do you continue to pay an employee who is not contributing to your profit goals? Are you so altruistic that you continue to employee people who do not contribute to profitability? Not me, I'll fire your ass.

And why are you so confused about whether business's "give" people a job? They don't. When I hire someone, I am willing to pay for their labor and experience. In exchange, they are willing to use their labor and experience for my benefit in exchange for my dollars. I didn't "give" anyone anything.
I am an employer, not the government.

Now to doubling the minimum wage and what would happen. Don't know and haven't heard of anyone offering to double the minimum wage. One thing for sure, the people who work for minimum wage would be happier. And they would be spending more which would help the economy.

But I am sure you are all concerned that a multi millionaire business owner might not be able to pay himself that multi million dollar bonus IF the owner were to pay a higher minimum wage.

You rethugs sure cling to a failed idea. First it was tax cuts create jobs. You got you tax cuts, jobs didn't happen.
Now its that an increase in minimum wage will crash the economy and make millionaires poor.

All bullshit all the time with you rethugs.

So now I'm a "rethug" again. Okay, whatever keeps it easy for you. And while I can't get anyone to answer my direct and reasonable questions, I will be happy to answer your sarcastic and condescening questions.

No, we do not continue to pay employees who are not contributing to our profit goals. But, as you know, that is not what was said. What was said demonstrated a clear ignorance of business economics.

Not sure why you thnk I'm confused about whether a business "gives" someone a job. Perhaps you can point that out for me. "Gives" is nothing more than a word - a job is a freely-agreed-to arrangement between a business and an employee. I don't know if you know this, but the business makes projections and myriad decisions based on its cost of labor. When that cost is arbitrarily and significantly increased without those employees increasing their output/efficiency/value, that immediately and adversely effects the business.

Regarding the theoretical doubling of the minimum wage, perhaps you haven't read this thread. Not my problem.

And indeed, the folks who would receive a massive wage for doing the same job would be thrilled. I bet they'd like it even more if the government arbitrarily made their mean boss triple or quadruple the pay for their bottom-end job. I wonder if you have the nerve to tell me if you see any down side to arbitrarily doubling, tripling or quadrupling pay for the same job. I guess we'll see.

And then, of course, you arrive at the "multi millionaire business owner". They're just running all over the place, aren't they? You have to swat 'em away like mosquitos at a freakin' picnic. That's such a simplistic and ignorant comment that I'm not sure how to respond. I will say that of the +/- 40 business owners I have for clients, maybe two or three have a net worth of over a million. Yet the rest don't matter to you. Hm. I wonder why that is.

Okay, just kidding, I know why that is.

I hope I have satisfactorily answered your simplistic, ignorant, stereotypical and sarcastic questions.

.

 

[Redfish]

Well, I imagine in your society, people starve and children suffer. But I believe I live in the greatest country on earth and we are capable of looking after our least fortunate

Why should someone have to work for you and then have to beg in order to survive? He is your employee. Why are you dumping him off on society to take care of?

the price of labor should be set by supply and demand, just like anything else. If your skills are minimal then you get minimal pay, if you have a lot of skills, you get top pay.

Why should an employer go out of business in order to pay a low skilled employee a wage that should be reserved for a highly skilled employee?

Where does it say that an employer is required to support his employees?

No one is forced to work for any rate of pay.

You are mixing two topics with your left wing bullshit about "looking out for our least fortunate". Thats what charities and churches are for, and they do a much better job of it than the government.

Where are employers going out of business because of excessive wages? They are able to pay their low wages because you and I make up the difference

GM and Chrysler were going out of business because of excessive UAW wages. Those companies were being destroyed by excessive wages and benefits---------sooooooo the great obozo saved the UAW by using our money to bail out those failing companies, and the excessive wages and benefits are still in play. How long before the next govt bailout is needed?

this is liberal lunacy in action.