Prop 8 in California

[Truthspeaker]

I tell you what, Father time. At least you make an intelligent argument and don't hurl around insults. I prefer discussion that way. We can debate the downfall of nations in a different post. But my opinion is simply that homosexuality is one factor that contributes. I argue from a primarily religious standpoint.
I do think that logically an irreligious person can understand my view that when societies get too accepting of "free love" and sexual promiscuity outside of marriage then it does create a sort of security breach by weakening the family which is the basic unit of society.
When the family is damaged. The quality of it's citizens and strength of their character becomes compromised because they are not taught wholesome values. Homosexuality is not the only factor of course but I do believe it is a major one.

My arguments are primarily religious and irreligious people will always tend to disagree with me. I am primarily here to call the bluffs of people who claim that they do believe in God and still state that God would accept this sinful act. Because if they are religious they don't understand the scriptures. If they are closet Atheists, then they just need to admit that so we can agree to disagree.

 

[Father Time]

I tell you what, Father time. At least you make an intelligent argument and don't hurl around insults. I prefer discussion that way. We can debate the downfall of nations in a different post. But my opinion is simply that homosexuality is one factor that contributes. I argue from a primarily religious standpoint.
I do think that logically an irreligious person can understand my view that when societies get too accepting of "free love" and sexual promiscuity outside of marriage then it does create a sort of security breach by weakening the family which is the basic unit of society.
When the family is damaged. The quality of it's citizens and strength of their character becomes compromised because they are not taught wholesome values. Homosexuality is not the only factor of course but I do believe it is a major one.

I don't think allowing people to embrace free love will weaken the family. It may weaken the numbers but I think that the families people choose to have won't be weakend. If your neighbors are into free love that's groovy (sorry couldn't help myself) but I don't see how it affects the strength of your family personally. I think if you let them do as they please some would go into free love and whatnot but a large enough chunk will remain as traditional families because it's so ingrained in our culture. To make a long story short free love will probably be a sub culture not the main one that defines us.There are countries that have gay marraige and even legalized prostitution in Europe with similar divorce rates to ours (and I think similar rates of married people but I can't remember).

Ok I'm rambling a bit and not providing sources (I can't post links) so let me end with that there are benefits to family that free love and lust will never top so I don't think we have to worry about family being a fad anytime soon.

I also think a family doesn't have to be traditional to help society.

 

[Sunni Man]

Sodomites are sick, perverts. Getting all excited about another man's fecal material is just plain dog nasty. Homos are mentally ill degenerates who do nothing but spread disease and infections. They should be locked up for the welfare and safety of society.

 

[Father Time]

Sodomites are sick, perverts. Getting all excited about another man's fecal material is just plain dog nasty. Homos are mentally ill degenerates who do nothing but spread disease and infections. They should be locked up for the welfare and safety of society.

There's quite a difference between homosexuality and coprophilia (sexual attraction to feces).

I've actually met some gays and they're not mentally ill nor perverted, and just like straights, they can easily not spread disease with condoms.

It'd do people good to stop making blanket statements about very large groups of people.

 

[Sunni Man]

There's quite a difference between homosexuality and coprophilia (sexual attraction to feces).

I've actually met some gays and they're not mentally ill nor perverted, and just like straights, they can easily not spread disease with condoms.

It'd do people good to stop making blanket statements about very large groups of people.

Gays are sick, nasty, pukes.

They have anal sex. That is smearing feces between each other.

That is gross!!!

 

[Truthspeaker]

Father Time, I have a fundamental disagreement with you on two counts. I do believe that breaking down the traditional family will cause degeneracy and eventually lead to a nations downfall.
The other is that the traditional family is not as engrained in our society as you think it is. We are a free love society. Just watch TV, everywhere we go people tell us it's ok to have sex out of marriage, that it's ok to be homosexual, do drugs and have babies out of wedlock. People have been told this more and more since the 60's and there is a huge difference in society now and 50 years ago. I disagree and say that the traditional family is no longer engrained in us, and therefore does directly affect my family because they will influence my kids, who will not stay in my house 24 hours a day. so it does directly affect my family. which is why so many californians decided to vote against homosexual marriage. It's ALL about our families.

 

[eots]

I don't think allowing people to embrace free love will weaken the family. It may weaken the numbers but I think that the families people choose to have won't be weakend.

well there is power in numbers ..to diminish numbers is to weaken

If your neighbors are into free love that's groovy (sorry couldn't help myself) but I don't see how it affects the strength of your family personally. I think if you let them do as they please some would go into free love and whatnot

its not love ..it is a sexual act..and while the act itself in a closet some where will have little effect.. but the agenda of those that engage in these sex acts as a philosophical and political movement is having a profound negative effect on society

but a large enough chunk will remain as traditional families because it's so ingrained in our culture.

no..not ingrained in our culture... ingrained in our humanity

To make a long story short free love

no one is condemning love

will probably be a sub culture not the main one that defines us.There are countries that have gay marraige and even legalized prostitution in Europe with similar divorce rates to ours (and I think similar rates of married people but I can't remember).

Ok I'm rambling a bit and not providing sources (I can't post links) so let me end with that there are benefits to family that free love and lust will never top so I don't think we have to worry about family being a fad anytime soon.

I also think a family doesn't have to be traditional to help society

they are values that under attack that must be guarded and protected

 

[FireGod]

Well it is nice to know that what should have no effect on you actually destroys your families. As you have no control over what you teach your children. Nor do you control how you deal with your children. It is nice to know that an obvious minority can singularly be responsible for the family values that you hold so dear. Where love between people is only right when it is between heterosexuals. If you truly want to do what is right for your children, family and country then stop getting so fucking emotional about everything and start using that space in your heads known as a BRAIN.
Really the hypocrisy is really puke worthy, as it EXPECTED that there is tolerance for NORMAL, well guess what? It is normal for people to have sexual relations with one another. It is normal to fall in love. It is normal to HAVE sex.
What is also normal, is to be FEARFUL of things that we do not understand. What is normal is to be FEARFUL of those who go against our beliefs. It takes COURAGE to get over the fear. It takes COURAGE to accept those who hold different beliefs than you. It takes COURAGE to think rationally. It takes COURAGE to question that which you do not understand, it takes even more COURAGE to question that which you hold as a core belief.
Think about it like this, if that which you hold dear is not worthy of scrutiny then it is not worth you holding dear.
At least that is the way I see it.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Well it is nice to know that what should have no effect on you actually destroys your families. As you have no control over what you teach your children. Nor do you control how you deal with your children. It is nice to know that an obvious minority can singularly be responsible for the family values that you hold so dear. Where love between people is only right when it is between heterosexuals. If you truly want to do what is right for your children, family and country then stop getting so fucking emotional about everything and start using that space in your heads known as a BRAIN.
Really the hypocrisy is really puke worthy, as it EXPECTED that there is tolerance for NORMAL, well guess what? It is normal for people to have sexual relations with one another. It is normal to fall in love. It is normal to HAVE sex.
What is also normal, is to be FEARFUL of things that we do not understand. What is normal is to be FEARFUL of those who go against our beliefs. It takes COURAGE to get over the fear. It takes COURAGE to accept those who hold different beliefs than you. It takes COURAGE to think rationally. It takes COURAGE to question that which you do not understand, it takes even more COURAGE to question that which you hold as a core belief.
Think about it like this, if that which you hold dear is not worthy of scrutiny then it is not worth you holding dear.
At least that is the way I see it.

You are welcome to see it however you like. But I thought it odd of you to say stop getting so emotional when you clearly are the one who is angry about this to the point of cursing at us.
I also find it odd that you think it takes courage to accept the views of those I disagree with. Why would I just accept something I have clearly thought through and disagree with? Courage?
I certainly have come to every decision in my life by questioning it, thinking it out, sometimes by trial and error, sometimes by common sense.
I do tolerate other peoples views, I just don't have to take them as my own, or sometimes even take them seriously.

 

[FireGod]

Acceptance is not agreement.

Yes I am angry at the stupid shit that I have seen on the boards. Especially at posts that have tried my patience to the nth degree.

The courage I speak of is that which would allow you to see from an place not of fear.

Not taking someones core views seriously is somewhat disrespectful no?

Using the argument that gay love is going to destroy the foundation of families is a reach. Why is it so very hard to accept people for who they are? Again I stress that accept does not equal agree.
I accept my friends for who they are period. Some of my friends beliefs run counter to my own beliefs. Does that mean that I think less of them .......... no.

I am upset because these same arguments are being tossed out with no resolution. Point in fact gay marriage will destroy the average heterosexual marriage. Really? Is marriage that fragile? I think not, BTDT twice. 1 was an epic failure due to non communication and stupidity, the other was moved to the spiritual realm (death). Based on those experiences, I can say with absolute certainty that neither relationship would have been affected by gay marriage in the least, nor do I see my kids being affected by gay marriage in the future. That is my reality.

Eventually we will have to agree to disagree once marriage is either "lowered to" a completely fair civil contract or taken completely out of the realm of law all together. The current definition as the majority of CA seems to think it should be does not fit with the law of the land should be. That being blind justice period.

 

[Truthspeaker]

My arguments are primarily religious. therefore i disagree with you when you say, that's just who they are. I don't believe people are born this way. they are abused, taught, or manipulated into this lifestyle and need help, not enabling.

 

[eots]

Well it is nice to know that what should have no effect on you actually destroys your families. As you have no control over what you teach your children. Nor do you control how you deal with your children.

well unfortunately a large part of the homosexual agenda seeks to limit and interfere and subvert what and how children are taught


It is nice to know that an obvious minority can singularly be responsible for the family values that you hold so dear.

no not singularly responsible..just another tentacle of the beast





Where love between people is only right when it is between heterosexuals.

no love is wonderful ..we are talking about a sexual act and the lifestyle and agenda that accompanies it


If you truly want to do what is right for your children, family and country then stop getting so fucking emotional about everything and start using that space in your heads known as a BRAIN.
Really the hypocrisy is really puke worthy, as it EXPECTED that there is tolerance for NORMAL, well guess what? It is normal for people to have sexual relations with one another. It is normal to fall in love. It is normal to HAVE sex.

yes bettween a man and a woman




What is also normal, is to be FEARFUL of things that we do not understand. What is normal is to be FEARFUL of those who go against our beliefs. It takes COURAGE to get over the fear. It takes COURAGE to accept those who hold different beliefs than you. It takes COURAGE to think rationally. It takes COURAGE to question that which you do not understand, it takes even more COURAGE to question that which you hold as a core belief.
Think about it like this, if that which you hold dear is not worthy of scrutiny then it is not worth you holding dear.
At least that is the way I see it.

Standing guard and being fearful are not the same...I have scrutinized and I
have concluded...I do not support gay marriage...or being able to marry your dog..or your gay brother..your blow up doll..your right hand ..or what ever other sexual preference or perversion you may have and like to refer to as love....

 

[FireGod]

My arguments are primarily religious. therefore i disagree with you when you say, that's just who they are. I don't believe people are born this way. they are abused, taught, or manipulated into this lifestyle and need help, not enabling.

Ok fine, I fundamentally disagree with your premise for the majority of homosexuals. So lets set that aside for now and tackle the next problem as I see it.
1st contrary to popular belief it is not easy to come out being gay.
2nd is it right to limit the mental well being of the individual who has already gone through so very much?
3rd do you have any idea what it would require on the part of therapists and the individuals to "get over" the abuse, brainwashing or manipulation?
A single rape can and does effect a person for the rest of their lives, it does not matter how many times or how many hours are wrapped up in fixing it, sometimes it just does not happen.
Why would someone not have compassion for someone else is beyond my thinking. Especially when there is no direct bearing on the person providing the compassion. If homosexuals are damaged goods chances are that the damage is permanent for all intents and purposes. To change something that fundamental in someone changes the very core of the person, if it can be done at all.
It is not enabling, in my mind, it is allowing people to be people. It is allowing someone to love someone else (consenting adults) and have the legalities involved.
By your help, you are asking/telling those who have already had negative life changes to go through them again, without much hope of success. When the only thing that is wrong with them is that are attracted to the wrong sex.

 

[FireGod]

Standing guard and being fearful are not the same...I have scrutinized and I
have concluded...I do not support gay marriage...or being able to marry your dog..or your gay brother..your blow up doll..your right hand ..or what ever other sexual preference or perversion you may have and like to refer to as love....

Standing guard against what? What is the fear, if you are standing guard?
What exactly have you looked at?
Do you know what love is?

BTW it is not a matter of supporting gay marriage it is about allowing it, two different things. Whether you can differentiate between support and allow or not.

 

[Father Time]

they are values that under attack that must be guarded and protected

Not at the expense of other's liberty. If you want to hype your values of family, fine. But to try to use government to make it the only option is deplorable in my opinion.

Not everyone shares your values and if you want to make sure your kids have the same values there's other ways that don't involve legislating morality.

 

[Father Time]

"well unfortunately a large part of the homosexual agenda seeks to limit and interfere and subvert what and how children are taught"

Really? I haven't seen any of that? So far all I've seen them demand is fair treamtent and the same rights as the rest of us. In any case the California superintendent of schools has said before that even if prop 8 gfailed they still wouoldn't teach gay marraige in schools.

 

[Truthspeaker]

I believe through the acceptance of Christ and the atonement he made. People can be repaired but only through him. A lot of people will die without a chance for this to happen. that doesn't mean we condemn them to hell. god takes everything into consideration and he does the judging. In the meantime. If we allow gay marriage, then we do support it as an acceptable alternative. I cannot stand behind that ideal.People may think of me what they may

 

[Father Time]

I believe through the acceptance of Christ and the atonement he made. People can be repaired but only through him. A lot of people will die without a chance for this to happen. that doesn't mean we condemn them to hell. god takes everything into consideration and he does the judging. In the meantime. If we allow gay marriage, then we do support it as an acceptable alternative. I cannot stand behind that ideal.People may think of me what they may

And if that's what everyone involved wants to do then why shouldn't it be an acceptable alternative? Because you personally think it's wrong?

 

[Father Time]

Just to add other nations (Canada for example) have legalized same sex marraige and they really haven't had degeneracy and all the other doom and gloom prophresized.

Although we're talking about people who will never be part of a traditional family or people who choose not to. If the only power or importance of traditional family lies in being the majority or being the only acceptable course of action than it probably never had much power to begin with.

 

[Truthspeaker]

That's only one reason, which isn't good enough. But because I believe God disapproves of it and has warned about the consequences it can have for societies who embrace it. I know people think I am a religious wacko but there is a lot that goes into becoming one. It's a very deliberate path that I wouldn't take unless I were 100 percent sure there was a God and a Christ.