Zone1 Question for Christians

[zaangalewa]

... but mainstream Christianity in the US is not necessarily the same as world wide. ...

For sure not so in case of Catholics.

 

[BULLDOG]

Actually, I remember what caught my interest as a mere tot, and I latched onto it. That same bit is taught in all three major faiths--and something quite similar in Buddhism. As I keep saying, God reaches us where we are and draws us to Himself from there.

Once again, modern English, read through the lens of Western culture warps the original language and cultural perspective of Biblical accounts. The Bible notes, "Seek and you will find." I searched, I found. It is taking decades.

There is an old quote: Two prisoners look out through the bars. One sees the dirt, the other sees the stars. It seems the same is true of the Bible: Looking through the Bible one can find find God and absolutely love and adore Him--or if preferred, people can find reason to dismiss and even hold Him in contempt.

Bottom line is I wanted to find God and you wanted to lose Him. It appears we both succeeded in reaching our goals.

More accurately, you concentrate on that which makes you feel familiar, and all warm and fuzzy while bypassing that which does not fit your focus. That's what cults do.
Not sure what you mean by "modern english read though the lens of western culture" Are you saying the bible's meaning is not the same as it once was? Which is the true meaning? Was origonal Christianity based on inaccurate bullshit, but only now seen for it's true meaning, or was the origonal totally correct, and modern Christianity has bastardized those texts? It must be one or the other. It can't be both because they are not the same. .
So seeing stars means the dirt doesn't exist? You seem to be enamored with the stars.(again, focusing on the parts you like to the excluson of that which you choose to ignore)

 

[BULLDOG]

The fact that it is so.

Are you familiar with the negotiations and political considerations involved when the bible was compiled from seperate ancient texts? How it was determined which would be included, and which would not?

 

[BULLDOG]

?

Hmmm ... Love needs freedom. ... Crimes make other people unfree. So we arrest criminals. ... And sins make oneselve unfree. So we try to avoid sins. ... Is this "mainstream" in your view to the Christians world? "Forgiveness of sin" (confession) is in this context a kind of reset before we start again and stumble more and more over new self-made hurdles (sins) or we land with our head in a wall (crime).

All of that conforms to the teachings of Christianity, but is really not the point. Avoiding sin, confession, stumbling, and the rest are expected steps along the way to the one immutable requirement for God's forgiveness. Accept Jesus, or go to hell. None of the steps coming to that point matter, or change God's determination of whether you receive forgiveness. That is the defining point of Christianity. All flavors of Christianity share that rule. Without it, you are not Christian.

 

[Blues Man]

I never heard the expression "all loving". We say for example "god is love" - and you have to be careful now. This is not a picture which we make from god. When we say "God is love" then this doesn't mean "god loves". This is different. It means when we love we are somehow part of god. Nevertheless we also believe god loves. I believe for example god loves you more than anything else in this universe. And I believe when I say the same to someone else then this is also true. First of all I am not able to say this in the same time - so it is not really a contradiction in our own logic - but I think this is also true within the own logos of god in a way which I am not really able currently to understand. But this is my belief - not my knowledge. Nevertheless I am convinced in this context as if I really would know this.

I made the experience that specially atheists are not able to make this difference between knowledge and belief. If they are convinced then this is always only "knowledge". Atheists exists a lot, 'beliefers in atheism' are very seldom. But nevertheless is atheism also "only" a belief.

Your god doesn't love his creations that much is obvious

 

[SweetSue92]

One of the most difficult? Not even close. If you are depnding on a just god, you can forget about one who creates people who have no chance for forgiveness, no matter what they believe or do, like Paul described. You think he will grade on a curve? that is totally unbiblical.

For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work.--1 Cor 3:11-14

“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.--Rev 22:12

For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds.--Matthew 16:27

Now this I say, he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.--2 Cor 9:6

Do you need more verses? Let me know.

 

[SweetSue92]

Are you aware that our current concept of hell did not take root until medieval times? Our word 'hell' didn't appear until the 700s; Dante's Inferno was written in the 1200. Paul's letters were in Greek--and there wasn't even a word for 'hell' in that language.

Paul spoke of evil, and that there would be trouble and distress for those who do evil; glory and honor for those who do good. Keep in mind in Jesus' time 'eternal' was used as something always present, no beginning, no end.

Our own modern view of what the Apostles and authors must have meant when they said something like "trouble and distress" has been filtered through a concept of hell that did not even come into being until centuries after Christ and the Apostles walked the earth.

Today (thanks to medieval literature), some read, "Those who do not believe in Christ will be condemned" and immediately picture a hellish place John did not even know existed. "Condemned" at that time would have meant condemned to go on with what John saw as an already miserable way of life. They can't enter into a new way of life.

Paul was in anguish, trying to make sense of why some of his people did not see Jesus as he saw Jesus. He ruminated that if everyone had, the Jewish way was to keep their faith and practices to themselves, a people set apart. The very fact that all did not accept what Paul and the other Apostles were teaching was why they began proclaiming Christ to the Gentiles. Paul ends by saying, God used unbelieving Jews to spread God's word out into the rest of the world, and in the end the world would bring Jews back to believing in Christ. While Paul was in despair at the time, when he looked into the future, all he saw was glory and honor to God from all.

Since it was the medieval mind that came up with hell, not Paul, take hell out of it. Paul is saying God has a purpose--and all, no matter what side of the coin they are on--are used for God's purposes. And God's purpose is to, in the end, draw all back to Him.

This is not "picking and choosing" what is in scripture. It is studying--in depth--the mind and the intent of the original author. And the original author lived long before medieval times.

Except that Jesus spoke of Hell. A lot. A real lot.

 

[SweetSue92]

By any chance do you have only one comprehensive news source? Journalism teaches (or used to anyway) that one must have three sources to verify an account. When interviewing spectators who viewed an incident, you don't ask just one person what happened, you ask as many as practical, covering all angles.

Take Genesis for example. Do you only read that single account of creation, or do you also read what scientists and geologists have written? When a Biblical account takes place at a known location, do you read what archaeologists have unearthed?

As you read the Bible, do you agree with everything that is written? I don't. Off hand, the stealing of Esau's blessing comes to mind. While the account explains why the theft was justified, I don't agree. My opinion. I don't agree that it was justified that the kingship was taken from Saul and given to David. My opinion and in both this case and in the case of Esau's blessing, I am clearly in the minority. In fact, I may be the only one who even thinks Esau and Saul were treated unfairly.

Christianity: In reading Jesus' own words I don't go along with Jesus had to die in order for our sins to be forgiven. I strongly believe Jesus died so that we would know our sins are forgiven, something he was proclaiming all throughout his ministry and only death could stop him from proclaiming this. And not even death stopped his message of Sins Are Forgiven from spreading throughout the land.

So God set up the entire sacrificial system--including the unblemished lamb and the passover--for just no reason at all. Maybe to make us THINK the Lamb of God on the Cross could accomplish something but according to you, it was more theater to generate an emotional response.

 

[SweetSue92]

Except that Jesus spoke of Hell. A lot. A real lot.

hah. Does surada believe I'm wrong about this or just disagree with the Son of God on Hell?

 

[surada]

hah. Does surada believe I'm wrong about this or just disagree with the Son of God on Hell?

Jesus talked about Gehenna...

What Jesus Really Said About Heaven and Hell

Neither Jesus, nor the Hebrew Bible he interpreted, endorsed the view that departed souls go to paradise or everlasting pain.

time.com

 

[SweetSue92]

Jesus talked about Gehenna...

What Jesus Really Said About Heaven and Hell

Neither Jesus, nor the Hebrew Bible he interpreted, endorsed the view that departed souls go to paradise or everlasting pain.

time.com

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.--Matt 25:41

 

[surada]

Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.--Matt 25:41

That's Matthew. Remember, Jesus was a Jew.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Except that Jesus spoke of Hell. A lot. A real lot.

Yes He did, and most people, Christians included, don't understand what He said

 

[Carl in Michigan]

hah. Does surada believe I'm wrong about this or just disagree with the Son of God on Hell?

He/she can't stand the truth -- knee jerk response

 

[SweetSue92]

That's Matthew. Remember, Jesus was a Jew.

Oh. So nothing He said actually matters, according to....you.

No. Rejected.

 

[zaangalewa]

Unless. of course, Marx was right when he called religion the "opiate of the masses" ...

Wrong quotation.

Karl Marx: Das religiöse Elend ist in einem der Ausdruck des wirklichen Elendes und in einem die Protestation gegen das wirkliche Elend. Die Religion ist der Seufzer der bedrängten Kreatur, das Gemüth einer herzlosen Welt, wie sie der Geist geistloser Zustände ist. Sie ist das Opium des Volks.

Translation:

The religious misery is in one the expression of the real misery and in one the protest against the real misery. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the spirit of a heartless world, as it is the spirit of spiritless conditions. It is the opiate of the people.

This words remember in their poetic expressions to the German poet Novalis (Freiherr Friedrich von Hardenberg) who used a lot of opium in a time when everyone thought opium is a medicine and no one knew something about drug dependence.

Because of this words which Karl Marx wrote in London in a very conformtable situation will later be murdered many people of many religions - dominated from the atheistic belief that atheism is no spiritual belief but the only truth.

It is said that the red Chinese emperor Mao alone murdered 20 up to 100 people - ah sorry: 20 up to 100 million people because of such "opiates" (slogans) like "religion is opiate".

-----
Wenn nicht mehr Zahlen und Figuren
Sind Schlüssel aller Kreaturen
Wenn die, so singen oder küssen,
Mehr als die Tiefgelehrten wissen,
Wenn sich die Welt ins freye Leben
Und in die Welt wird zurück begeben,
Wenn dann sich wieder Licht und Schatten
Zu ächter Klarheit werden gatten,
Und man in Mährchen und Gedichten
Erkennt die ewgen Weltgeschichten,
Dann fliegt vor Einem geheimen Wort
Das ganze verkehrte Wesen fort.

Novalis
-----

Try to translate this:

When no longer numbers and figures
Are keys of all creatures
If those so sing or kiss,
Know more than the very learned,
When the world will go back to life
And will return into the world,
When light and shadow
To true clarity will be married,
And fairy tales and poems
Will recognize the eternal stories of the world,
Then before a secret word
The whole inverted being flies away.
----

 

[Dadoalex]

Wrong quotation.

Karl Marx: Das religiöse Elend ist in einem der Ausdruck des wirklichen Elendes und in einem die Protestation gegen das wirkliche Elend. Die Religion ist der Seufzer der bedrängten Kreatur, das Gemüth einer herzlosen Welt, wie sie der Geist geistloser Zustände ist. Sie ist das Opium des Volks.

Translation:

The religious misery is in one the expression of the real misery and in one the protest against the real misery. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the spirit of a heartless world, as it is the spirit of spiritless conditions. It is the opiate of the people.

This words remember in their poetic expressions to the German poet Novalis (Freiherr Friedrich von Hardenberg) who used a lot of opium in a time when everyone thought opium is a medicine and no one knew something about drug dependence.

Because of this words which Karl Marx wrote in London in a very conformtable situation will later be murdered many people of many religions - because of the belief that atheism is no spiritual belief.

It is said that the red Chinese emperor Mao alone murdered 20 up to 100 people - ah sorry: 20 up to 100 million people because of such "opiates" (slogans) like "religion is opiate".

-----
Wenn nicht mehr Zahlen und Figuren
Sind Schlüssel aller Kreaturen
Wenn die, so singen oder küssen,
Mehr als die Tiefgelehrten wissen,
Wenn sich die Welt ins freye Leben
Und in die Welt wird zurück begeben,
Wenn dann sich wieder Licht und Schatten
Zu ächter Klarheit werden gatten,
Und man in Mährchen und Gedichten
Erkennt die ewgen Weltgeschichten,
Dann fliegt vor Einem geheimen Wort
Das ganze verkehrte Wesen fort.

Novalis
-----

I'll accept your translation but it does not change the argument.

The powerful use religion as a tool to control the people.
In Rome, in England, in the Middle East, in Japan where the emperor was a god and all the way back to Egypt when the Pharaohs were gods.

This linking of religion and government across history is why the Constitution specifically forbids anything resembling a state religion.

 

[surada]

He/she can't stand the truth -- knee jerk response

Gehenna was the city dump in a valley south of Jerusalem where they burned garbage. References to it are figurative not literal.

 

[zaangalewa]

I'll accept your translation but it does not change the argument. ...

I do not see an argument. I see a bloody tragedy and a big loss of rationality. It makes not any sense to believe not to believe and to kill everyone who not shares this "opiate" - this "opinion". The sentence "religion is opiate" is its own "opiate".

 

[zaangalewa]

... The powerful use religion as a tool to control the people.

When did someone come to you on a Friday and took a look into your cooking pot whether you live vegan or not vegan? And what says Jesus about such rules? When did a Christian say to you you do not have to use the word "negroe" because this makes you to a racist or you have to accept that it are existing male people, female people and people with another sex - without being able to tell anyone which sex this could be.

In Rome, in England, in the Middle East, in Japan where the emperor was a god and all the way back to Egypt when the Pharaohs were gods.

You have absolutelly not any idea what you try to speak about when you try to speak about the Jewish and Christian religion, isn't it? The last "pharao" who was buried is Lenin.

This linking of religion and government across history

For example the linking of atheism and communism?

is why the Constitution specifically forbids anything resembling a state religion.

I do not discuss about the US-American constitution because this constitution is sacrosanct for very most US-Americans. I am a German. Germans normally respect the real and serios belief of other people, tribes and nations. Always did do so - before Commie-opiates and Nazi-opiates made much too many people mad.