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All that s interesting, but the quote I mentioned was in the new testiment, and purportedly by the man credited with starting the Christian religion. Nothing to do with the OT. If that's not directly from the horses mouth, I don't know what would be.Not accurate at all. You forget what I said earlier, where a personal experience of God perplexed me about what people were saying about God in the Old Testament. My experience of God is pure love and lovers all seemed to be the exact opposite of what we are told by people of the Old Testament who had their own experiences of God. How could this be!?
I set forth to answer that question, and along the way discovered it was a different language seeing through the lens of a different culture that made my experience of God seem not only opposite, but radically opposite of Old Testament experiences. Turns out, returning to the original language and the original culture taught me that Old Testament people also held a firm insight that God is love.
Seeing God as a monster could mean someone changed changed something in their own life that necessitated thinking of God as a monster. It's not I who am after warm and fuzzy. Not only do I not care for 'warm and fuzzy' I don't need it. Could it be that those who equate 'warm and fuzzy' with having a relationship with God could mean that 'warm and fuzzy' comes to those who find justification for turning from God?
People who choose to turn towards God better expect to be challenged constantly.
I pity you.Obviously I have not been clear. I see no reason to believe in any god. I still wish I could.
Ok. Explain what you think Paul meant. I took it to mean nothing man can do or believe matters. God will decide who he forgives regardless of how devout or accepting of Jesus the man might be.All it means is that language changes, the meaning and use of words change over time.
Alan Greenspan once said, " ' I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant'"
The same can be true of the Bible: I know we think we understand what we thought the Bible said, but I'm not sure we realize that what we understand is not what was meant."
First of all, we have so much more world history behind us than they had in their time.
It takes tremendous time, tremendous effort to go back through Biblical times and cultures to study (not read) what the original author was saying to his original audience.
You misinterpret those passages. How about the Scripture saying it's God's will that ALL be saved.I was devoutly Christian until I did a deep study of the bible which presented questions I couldn't find the answers to, and nobody I asked even tried to answer. I wish I could reclaim my faith. Believing in a loving, all knowing God who deeply cared about me personally gave me great comfort in hard times, and I wish I could regain peace that came from the belief that all things would work for the good to them that love God. I conveniently ignored the following part that said only those that were called according to his purpose.
Paul was quite specific when he said there is nothing in human desire or effort to gain forgiveness. God will show mercy or harden who he wants, and nothing we believe, say, or do will have anything to do with his choice. (Romans 9: 16-18) Paul goes on to explain that some people were only created as examples of his glory to be shown to the objects of his mercy. (Romans 9: 19-23) Obviously, those people were created to go to hell, since there is nothing they can believe , or do to change Gods decision on mercy.
Help me out here. Does God offer the chance to go to heaven to everybody, or just his chosen few, and how do you justify what Paul wrote with the idea of a benevolent forgiving God?
Well what about it? There are lots of examples where scripture contridicts it's self. Some of the most glaring are where Jesus and Paul teach diametrically opposed things. What criteria do you use to choose one scripture over another when they say opposite things?You misinterpret those passages. How about the Scripture saying it's God's will that ALL be saved.
No, it's misinterpreted. Scripture never contradicts itself. The Scripture says "My people perish for a lack of knowledge". You got off track.Well what about it? There are lots of examples where scripture contridicts it's self. Some of the most glaring are where Jesus and Paul teach diametrically opposed things. What criteria do you use to choose one scripture over another when they say opposite things?
So you interpret the scripture. What do you think Paul was saying, and why do you think that?No, it's misinterpreted. Scripture never contradicts itself. The Scripture says "My people perish for a lack of knowledge". You got off track.
As I recall, already addressed. Paul was beside himself that so many Jews could not understand what was being said about Christ--and the significance of Christ's life and teachings. The Jews were God's chosen people! Why were these Jews even born!? Paul notes that God has His own purposes for whom He creates and this is not to be questioned. What is to be trusted is, look! It was the Jews decision to dismiss all these teachings that opened the door to spread God's word to the Gentiles! Gentiles embracing God's word would, in the end, lead even the Jewish nation back to God. Paul saw God's glory in all of this.Ok. Explain what you think Paul meant. I took it to mean nothing man can do or believe matters. God will decide who he forgives regardless of how devout or accepting of Jesus the man might be.
No one deserves mercy and forgiveness. God chose to forgive us and show mercy.So you interpret the scripture. What do you think Paul was saying, and why do you think that?
More accurately, he was explaining that god had already told Moses, long before Paul was even born, that god would decide who to love, and not love, even within the Jewish community. Nothing man does or can do has any bearing on that.As I recall, already addressed. Paul was beside himself that so many Jews could not understand what was being said about Christ--and the significance of Christ's life and teachings. The Jews were God's chosen people! Why were these Jews even born!? Paul notes that God has His own purposes for whom He creates and this is not to be questioned. What is to be trusted is, look! It was the Jews decision to dismiss all these teachings that opened the door to spread God's word to the Gentiles! Gentiles embracing God's word would, in the end, lead even the Jewish nation back to God. Paul saw God's glory in all of this.
What scriptures do you believe backs this upGentiles embracing God's word would, in the end, lead even the Jewish nation back to God
I still pity you.Thank you for your concern, but it is neither asked for or needed.
The same scripture the OP cites.What scriptures do you believe backs this up
Which scripture(s) are you referencing?More accurately, he was explaining that god had already told Moses, long before Paul was even born, that god would decide who to love, and not love, even within the Jewish community. Nothing man does or can do has any bearing on that.
I haven't read the 17 pages of this thread. Only bits and pieces.The same scripture the OP cites.
Then what story(s) are you thinking of when you said in Post 331:Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I don't think I've referenced any specific scripture other than that in the OP.
he was explaining that god had already told Moses, long before Paul was even born, that god would decide who to love, and not love, even within the Jewish community.
You can't even read the Opening Post? (Read Romans, Chapter 9)I haven't read the 17 pages of this thread. Only bits and pieces.
Sorry I tripped you up with a simple question you can't just produce a simple answer to
The story referenced in the OP. You really should read the OP. To save you the effort it's Romans 9 16-23 or may be 24. I would have to check myself to be sure. I will also admit to a mistake. The remark "“I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth" was made to Pharaoh instead of Moses.Then what story(s) are you thinking of when you said in Post 331:
