Zone1 Question for Christians

[Blues Man]

I still think you are hung up on God's foreknowledge. Since He knows before a person is born everything that they will do, say, or think, He is therefore able to use them for His purposes. Paul is simply underlining God's sovereignty and authority over us all. Why would He NOT use someone that He knows absolutely will reject Him for His own glory?

I do not for one moment believe that God rejects anyone who repents and seeks Him.

So your god knows beforehand if a person is going to murder someone and does nothing to stop it?

 

[BULLDOG]

Quote those verses from Paul that say there will be no judgment and no rewards.

I never claimed those verses exist, are implied in any way that he said that.

 

[theHawk]

Because he was a historian recording the historic, not passed down the line stories with agendas decades or centuries later by the fake news of Rome's authority.
Early copies of Josephus have no mention of Jesus, but the figures creating his story are mentioned as does Book of Acts 5 mention the other Christs.
Jesus accts in Josephus are out of time sequence as if placed in and a Jewish historian would not call him by a Greek Name nor use the term Christ, a Christian writter would. The name only appears after Constantines era where Eusebius the great forger and father of lies existed.
One has to be intellectually honest and
determine which historical era christ they are calling their Christ (and study and discuss their historical record), because even Paul and James seemed to argue that each was teaching another Christ.
If there's a big difference between presidents spanning different eras then don't you want to define which Hisrorical President you are discussing and not just be content with the broad stroke word President shared by many? Then don' t you think historians describing the presidents are important? (and yes knowing their affiliation is important as it can taint the narrative or perceptions.)

LOL Josephus didn’t have his own agenda? Of course he did. He was a Jew and a Roman, both of which hated Christians.

He was also born after Jesus was crucified, so where was he getting his information from? Disgruntled Jews.

 

[hadit]

So your god knows beforehand if a person is going to murder someone and does nothing to stop it?

Of course. If He stopped all the bad things people do, He would not be able to say that we have complete autonomy to choose or reject Him. If He removed all negative consequences from choices, there's really no freedom of choice, is there? And, stop to think for a moment. If we really want God to stop evil from happening, He's going to be stopping us as well. Do you want Him stopping you from doing all those "little" things that you know are wrong but enjoy doing? Everybody wants God to stop everybody else from doing things, but don't want Him stopping themselves.

 

[BULLDOG]

I still think you are hung up on God's foreknowledge. Since He knows before a person is born everything that they will do, say, or think, He is therefore able to use them for His purposes. Paul is simply underlining God's sovereignty and authority over us all. Why would He NOT use someone that He knows absolutely will reject Him for His own glory?

I do not for one moment believe that God rejects anyone who repents and seeks Him.

I suppose a god can do as they wish, but that's not the scenario Paul described. Paul said it didn't matter if they repent and seek him. Paul sad nothing they could do would make any difference.

 

[Blues Man]

Of course. If He stopped all the bad things people do, He would not be able to say that we have complete autonomy to choose or reject Him. If He removed all negative consequences from choices, there's really no freedom of choice, is there? And, stop to think for a moment. If we really want God to stop evil from happening, He's going to be stopping us as well. Do you want Him stopping you from doing all those "little" things that you know are wrong but enjoy doing? Everybody wants God to stop everybody else from doing things, but don't want Him stopping themselves.

So you don't think an omnipotent god is capable of stopping the people he knows beforehand are going to rape torture and murder another of his creations that this god supposedly loves?

And is the person who is getting raped tortured and murdered choosing to be raped tortured and murdered? I don't see how the "free will" of the victim plays into this at all.

If what you say is true then your god knows he created a person that will rape torture and murder people and he allows that person to do so with impunity.

and you want to tell me this is a loving god that should be worshiped?

 

[Dadoalex]

I do not see an argument. I see a bloody tragedy and a big loss of rationality. It makes not any sense to believe not to believe and to kill everyone who not shares this "opiate" - this "opinion". The sentence "religion is opiate" is its own "opiate".

Pretty sure believing in the existence of of some guy who lives in a cloud and runs everything is a clear sign of mental disturbance.

But you go on believing that a rational opinion that denies the existence of this fantasy is a "loss of rationality."

 

[Dadoalex]

When did someone come to you on a Friday and took a look into your cooking pot whether you live vegan or not vegan? And what says Jesus about such rules? When did a Christian say to you you do not have to use the word "negroe" because this makes you to a racist or you have to accept that it are existing male people, female people and people with another sex - without being able to tell anyone which sex this could be.



You have absolutelly not any idea what you try to speak about when you try to speak about the Jewish and Christian religion, isn't it? The last "pharao" who was buried is Lenin.



For example the linking of atheism and communism?



I do not discuss about the US-American constitution because this constitution is sacrosanct for very most US-Americans. I am a German. Germans normally respect the real and serios belief of other people, tribes and nations. Always did do so - before Commie-opiates and Nazi-opiates made much too many people mad.

Perhaps in grmany is is OK to ignore the point of a posting while attacking (unsuccessfully) the points setting up the conclusion but I. for one, don't think that is a lucid approach.

Also, in any language that post was lunacy

 

[HaShev]

LOL Josephus didn’t have his own agenda? Of course he did. He was a Jew and a Roman, both of which hated Christians.

He was also born after Jesus was crucified, so where was he getting his information from? Disgruntled Jews.

He never recorded of a Jesus, only the crucified martyrs detailing their revolts were recorded that were used for the Jesus image.

 

[hadit]

So you don't think an omnipotent god is capable of stopping the people he knows beforehand are going to rape torture and murder another of his creations that this god supposedly loves?

And is the person who is getting raped tortured and murdered choosing to be raped tortured and murdered? I don't see how the "free will" of the victim plays into this at all.

If what you say is true then your god knows he created a person that will rape torture and murder people and he allows that person to do so with impunity.

and you want to tell me this is a loving god that should be worshiped?

I'm telling you that this is a just God who allows man to choose evil, with all of its consequences. Like I said, would you really want Him to force your mind into a mold that pleases Him, leaving you no choice by to obey Him in every way? Because that's what we're talking about here.

Or, are you saying that you want to pick and choose what evil God will prevent from happening, things that don't inconvenience you, but stop things you think are bad?

 

[Blues Man]

I'm telling you that this is a just God who allows man to choose evil, with all of its consequences. Like I said, would you really want Him to force your mind into a mold that pleases Him, leaving you no choice by to obey Him in every way? Because that's what we're talking about here.

Or, are you saying that you want to pick and choose what evil God will prevent from happening, things that don't inconvenience you, but stop things you think are bad?

So you think people choose to be raped tortured and murdered.

That's their "free will"? right?

And I'll just stick to murder if that makes you feel better.

Your god creates a person who he knows is going to commit murder. Your god knows when that person will commit murder and who he will murder.

And you are trying to tell me your god loves that person who will get murdered and yet does nothing.

That's ain't love that's cruelty

 

[LibertyKid]

I was devoutly Christian until I did a deep study of the bible which presented questions I couldn't find the answers to, and nobody I asked even tried to answer. I wish I could reclaim my faith. Believing in a loving, all knowing God who deeply cared about me personally gave me great comfort in hard times, and I wish I could regain peace that came from the belief that all things would work for the good to them that love God. I conveniently ignored the following part that said only those that were called according to his purpose.

Paul was quite specific when he said there is nothing in human desire or effort to gain forgiveness. God will show mercy or harden who he wants, and nothing we believe, say, or do will have anything to do with his choice. (Romans 9: 16-18) Paul goes on to explain that some people were only created as examples of his glory to be shown to the objects of his mercy. (Romans 9: 19-23) Obviously, those people were created to go to hell, since there is nothing they can believe , or do to change Gods decision on mercy.

Help me out here. Does God offer the chance to go to heaven to everybody, or just his chosen few, and how do you justify what Paul wrote with the idea of a benevolent forgiving God?

Check out this site. Home - Greg Boyd - ReKnew
Greg is a great theologian and an outside the box thinker when it comes to these tough questions. Search his site on Predestination, TULIP, etc. Listen to his podcasts. I'll reveal a little about his core belief. He is an open theist. He does not believe that God knows everything from the beginning to the end as that has ramifications on our ability to have free will. Do you yourself a favor and take some time, read and listen to Greg's points.

Also, IMO, personal spiritual belief doesn't have to reside within a certain dogma, religious sect, denomination. I absolutely believe that there is a God (and not necessarily the westernized Christian God), who has tried many times to reveal himself over many millennia. Mankind, going back as far as recorded human history has always looked to spirituality, with no evidence at all for it, but why? I hope that at life end, there is more. If not, I haven't lost anything, and if there is more, I hope that I can be better than I am now.

 

[Meriweather]

It's not theater so you can have, I don't know, a better "journey". That mindset is not God-focused.

I am sorry, but I haven't a clue what you are talking about or what you mean.

 

[hadit]

So you think people choose to be raped tortured and murdered.

That's their "free will"? right?

That's dumb. No one in their right mind chooses that.

And I'll just stick to murder if that makes you feel better.

Pick whatever you like. You do realize, don't you, that you practice evil in your own life, and if you want God to stop evil, He'll be stopping you as well?

Your god creates a person who he knows is going to commit murder. Your god knows when that person will commit murder and who he will murder.

And you are trying to tell me your god loves that person who will get murdered and yet does nothing.

Murder, for someone in relationship with God, is not the worst thing that can happen. Surely you can find something else that checks the box you're trying to fill.

That's ain't love that's cruelty

You won't address the question I asked. Should God mold your mind into a robot who simply cannot do anything other than worship Him? If you don't, then you have to acknowledge that He gives EVERYONE the power to choose how they want to act, and that means some will choose to do awful things. Thus far, you've given me no indication of what you'd like other than to control what God stops and what He doesn't. Adultery is evil in God's eyes. Do you want Him to stop everyone who pursues a married person, everyone who has an affair? How hard should they be stopped, just a mind change at a critical juncture or a total mental breakdown at the very thought of doing it? Perhaps a car hits them on the way to the hotel, putting them in the hospital for a few weeks every time they plan to meet someone. Lying about someone is evil. Should every internet keyboard jockey be struck dead every time they repeat a lie about TRUMP! or some other politician? Or, maybe not dead, just struck with a bunch of boils.

Think this through, and what it is you actually think God should be doing. Kind of funny, in a way. Some of the same people who are appalled, just appalled, that God allows people to choose evil get equally appalled when they hear about God bringing judgement on a group of people who have been doing evil for generations, stopping it in its tracks. They don't want God to let evil happen but apparently, they don't want Him to stop it either.

 

[BULLDOG]

I'm telling you that this is a just God who allows man to choose evil, with all of its consequences. Like I said, would you really want Him to force your mind into a mold that pleases Him, leaving you no choice by to obey Him in every way? Because that's what we're talking about here.

Or, are you saying that you want to pick and choose what evil God will prevent from happening, things that don't inconvenience you, but stop things you think are bad?

A large part of the bible is just going on and on, and on about how he loves his people, how he personally cares about his people, how wonderful it is to have a personal relationship with him. It would be a nice gesture if he would at least protect his people from being raped and murdered, don't you think? Not everybody, but at least the ones he considers to be "his people"

 

[hadit]

A large part of the bible is just going on and on, and on about how he loves his people, how he personally cares about his people, how wonderful it is to have a personal relationship with him. It would be a nice gesture if he would at least protect his people from being raped and murdered, don't you think? Not everybody, but at least the ones he considers to be "his people"

Have you been following what I've been saying about free will? And have you not read where the rain falls on the just and the unjust? IOW, what you are advocating is a situation where people follow God because they get goodies, not because they love Him or put their faith in Him for salvation and relationship.

If you want all the goodies now, in this life, that's likely all you're going to get. Look, the fact remains, God allows people to choose how they will behave, and some people take that freedom and do awful things. Since I'm getting no answer from the other poster, I'll ask you. Do you want God to make everyone robots that can't choose to do evil, and do you want God to stop evil? Keep in mind when you answer that you are also an evil doer and He would need to stop you.

 

[BULLDOG]

US that has become so hateful and overbearing in recent years dispite Check out this site. Home - Greg Boyd - ReKnew
Greg is a great theologian and an outside the box thinker when it comes to these tough questions. Search his site on Predestination, TULIP, etc. Listen to his podcasts. I'll reveal a little about his core belief. He is an open theist. He does not believe that God knows everything from the beginning to the end as that has ramifications on our ability to have free will. Do you yourself a favor and take some time, read and listen to Greg's points.

Also, IMO, personal spiritual belief doesn't have to reside within a certain dogma, religious sect, denomination. I absolutely believe that there is a God (and not necessarily the westernized Christian God), who has tried many times to reveal himself over many millennia. Mankind, going back as far as recorded human history has always looked to spirituality, with no evidence at all for it, but why? I hope that at life end, there is more. If not, I haven't lost anything, and if there is more, I hope that I can be better than I am now.

It sounds like he might be interesting, or even worth a look, but this thread is specifcally about Christianity, the major religion here in the US that has become so hateful and overbearing in recent years. despite, or possibly because of all the contradictions. Your description of this Greg guy doesn't sound anything like main stream Christianity.

 

[BULLDOG]

Have you been following what I've been saying about free will? And have you not read where the rain falls on the just and the unjust? IOW, what you are advocating is a situation where people follow God because they get goodies, not because they love Him or put their faith in Him for salvation and relationship.

If you want all the goodies now, in this life, that's likely all you're going to get. Look, the fact remains, God allows people to choose how they will behave, and some people take that freedom and do awful things. Since I'm getting no answer from the other poster, I'll ask you. Do you want God to make everyone robots that can't choose to do evil, and do you want God to stop evil? Keep in mind when you answer that you are also an evil doer and He would need to stop you.

You're talking about rain that we all must have, but I'm talking about being murdered. You don't understand the difference? I choose not to be murdered. Perhaps it's just me, but that's has a big check mark by it when it comes to my free will. Don't you think eternal life in heaven sounds like the ultimate goodie? God supposedly knows those that will stay faithful. Just preventing their murders doesn't sound like a big chore for a loving god. How many people who you know would use their free will to be murdered?

 

[hadit]

You're talking about rain that we all must have, but I'm talking about being murdered. You don't understand the difference? I choose not to be murdered. Perhaps it's just me, but that's has a big check mark by it when it comes to my free will. Don't you think eternal life in heaven sounds like the ultimate goodie? God supposedly knows those that will stay faithful. Just preventing their murders doesn't sound like a big chore for a loving god. How many people who you know would use their free will to be murdered?

That's dumb. No one chooses to be murdered. People do, however, choose to murder other people, and those are the ones that you apparently think God should be stopping. I asked the other poster, and now I'm asking you, but haven't gotten any answers yet.

Should God make all humankind robots that have no free will to do evil? Yes or no?

 

[BULLDOG]

That's dumb. No one chooses to be murdered. People do, however, choose to murder other people, and those are the ones that you apparently think God should be stopping. I asked the other poster, and now I'm asking you, but haven't gotten any answers yet.

Should God make all humankind robots that have no free will to do evil? Yes or no?

Do you really think those are the only two possible choices?