Question for those on the left

[LadyGunSlinger]

You assumed wrong. And obtaining fair prices for products, services and resources is not a liberal concept. It is a concept appreciated and used by conservatives as well as liberals.

WRONG. Price controls are completely a leftist/Stalinist concept.

I didn't say anything about price controls. Obtaining fair prices has nothing to do with price controls. Price controls are the forced use of unfair unnatural and hence, unfair prices.

WTF is a fair price and who the hell decides what's "fair?"

 

[peach174]

Thats what kills me about liberals. At some point any thinking person will turn on a crooked government,even if it's their own party.
Yet here we have a president who has been inept at best and criminal at worst...yet they still follow him.
When does it become about country liberals?

When does it stop being all about hating the president? You people have put Obama's face on everything you find bad about the government and actually seem to think simply getting him out of office will solve all kinds of problems. There is only one problem that will be solved, your horror of a black man in the oval office. Wait, you say you are not racist like that? Then zero problems will be solved with his eventual departure.

It is not hating him as a person. It's about his policies.
Almost everyone in this nation thinks that he is good husband and father.
How many times have we said it's about socialist liberalism (in both parties) in this country?
You won't even recognize that Obama is far left.
When a Senator like Obama votes for partial birth abortion that person is far left.

 

[occupied]

You couldn't tell the truth if your life depended on it. EVERYONE knows Conservatives are for less government while you liberal nitwits want expansive government intrusion.

Sorry, watched you all do it when Bush took over from Clinton and then switch back to being fantasy revolutionaries when Obama came in. I have no faith that any of your anti-government rhetoric is real. You just want republican hands on the levers of power not to actually curtail that power in any meaningful way. Republicans had every opportunity to make good on their stated values and instead expanded executive powers beyond all reason.

All of us who???? Show me links.. You never saw me do anything of the sort Spunkmeister.. SHOW ME or it didn't happen.

I was of course speaking of the republican base, but you knew that. Are you somehow not part of that crowd? If so then good for you.

 

[occupied]

Thats what kills me about liberals. At some point any thinking person will turn on a crooked government,even if it's their own party.
Yet here we have a president who has been inept at best and criminal at worst...yet they still follow him.
When does it become about country liberals?

When does it stop being all about hating the president? You people have put Obama's face on everything you find bad about the government and actually seem to think simply getting him out of office will solve all kinds of problems. There is only one problem that will be solved, your horror of a black man in the oval office. Wait, you say you are not racist like that? Then zero problems will be solved with his eventual departure.

It is not hating him as a person. It's about his policies.
Almost everyone in this nation thinks that he is good husband and father.
How many times have we said it's about socialist liberalism (in both parties) in this country?
You won't even recognize that Obama is far left.
When a Senator like Obama votes for partial birth abortion that person is far left.

I'm far left, to me Obama looks remarkably like a "free market" Neocon in his polices.

 

[peach174]

WRONG. Price controls are completely a leftist/Stalinist concept.

I didn't say anything about price controls. Obtaining fair prices has nothing to do with price controls. Price controls are the forced use of unfair unnatural and hence, unfair prices.

WTF is a fair price and who the hell decides what's "fair?"

The people themselves set the price.
If something is sold that is too high, people don't buy it.
It's called free markets.

 

[regent]

OK, here's the point------------ready?

governments have only 3 sources of money

1. tax collections
2. borrowing
3. printing

our government has been doing all three and the results are: 1. 17 trillion in debt 2. inflation in food and energy prices 3. a weak dollar internationally.

If this continues our nation is headed for bankruptcy and chaos. Liberalism by both parties got us in this mess, coupled with legalized bribery of congress by lobbyists.

The fixes are difficult but possible:
1. a balanced budget amendment with some real teeth
2. term limits for congress

You have left out the corporate and billionaires main source of income, publicly owned property, assets and natural resources. If the government collected efficiently and fairly on those, taxes would not be needed.

I assume you are talking about taxing oil recovery on public lands. Do you have any idea who makes the most profit on every gallon of gasoline produced in this country------------------------------the government.

And if you put more taxes on energy production, who do you think is going to pay it? It would be a cost of doing business and would be passed along to the consumers.

You libs have a very limited understanding of economics and tax law.

The national debt has only been paid off once in our history. And it took a lib to do that task. The lib paid off the debt that using a source of income you forgot with your unlimited understanding of economics and tax law.

 

[Camp]

WRONG. Price controls are completely a leftist/Stalinist concept.

I didn't say anything about price controls. Obtaining fair prices has nothing to do with price controls. Price controls are the forced use of unfair unnatural and hence, unfair prices.

WTF is a fair price and who the hell decides what's "fair?"

The buyer and the seller determine the fair price. When special rules, laws, regulations and caveats are brought in to the equation the pricing system becomes fouled and ultimately unfair.

 

[LadyGunSlinger]

I didn't say anything about price controls. Obtaining fair prices has nothing to do with price controls. Price controls are the forced use of unfair unnatural and hence, unfair prices.

WTF is a fair price and who the hell decides what's "fair?"

The buyer and the seller determine the fair price. When special rules, laws, regulations and caveats are brought in to the equation the pricing system becomes fouled and ultimately unfair.

Supply and demand I support. It has ZERO to do with "fair" prices..

 

[peach174]

When does it stop being all about hating the president? You people have put Obama's face on everything you find bad about the government and actually seem to think simply getting him out of office will solve all kinds of problems. There is only one problem that will be solved, your horror of a black man in the oval office. Wait, you say you are not racist like that? Then zero problems will be solved with his eventual departure.

It is not hating him as a person. It's about his policies.
Almost everyone in this nation thinks that he is good husband and father.
How many times have we said it's about socialist liberalism (in both parties) in this country?
You won't even recognize that Obama is far left.
When a Senator like Obama votes for partial birth abortion that person is far left.

I'm far left, to me Obama looks remarkably like a "free market" Neocon in his polices.

Free market does not mean thousands of more regulation.
Under this administration in Sept. 2012 there was 11,327 new regulations.

Under Obama, 11,327 Pages of Federal Regulations Added | CNS News

In Jan. 2014 141 more new regulations in three days.
Feds list 141 new regulations in only three days | The Daily Caller

Thousands of new regulations is not free market.

 

[dilloduck]

WTF is a fair price and who the hell decides what's "fair?"

The buyer and the seller determine the fair price. When special rules, laws, regulations and caveats are brought in to the equation the pricing system becomes fouled and ultimately unfair.

Supply and demand I support. It has ZERO to do with "fair" prices..

"Fair" is only fair to the ones who define it. Everyone else gets screwed.

 

[LadyGunSlinger]

You have left out the corporate and billionaires main source of income, publicly owned property, assets and natural resources. If the government collected efficiently and fairly on those, taxes would not be needed.

I assume you are talking about taxing oil recovery on public lands. Do you have any idea who makes the most profit on every gallon of gasoline produced in this country------------------------------the government.

And if you put more taxes on energy production, who do you think is going to pay it? It would be a cost of doing business and would be passed along to the consumers.

You libs have a very limited understanding of economics and tax law.

The national debt has only been paid off once in our history. And it took a lib to do that task. The lib paid off the debt that using a source of income you forgot with your unlimited understanding of economics and tax law.

If you're referring to Bill Clinton then you need to go back and study your history on Government because he was brought KICKING AND SCREAMING by the Newt House and the Contract With America.. I can get clips of him discussing how many years it would take to balance the budget.. He couldn't make up his mind and talked the talk until pinned in to a corner.. He gets credit where credit is deserved ... IT WAS A BI-PARTISAN effort, period. We can also go on to argue policy and economics which show BUSH Sr getting credit for being a player in that equation when he raised taxes (something that cost him politically). Different economists say different things.. One thing is certain, BILL CLINTON did not do it alone.

 

[occupied]

It is not hating him as a person. It's about his policies.
Almost everyone in this nation thinks that he is good husband and father.
How many times have we said it's about socialist liberalism (in both parties) in this country?
You won't even recognize that Obama is far left.
When a Senator like Obama votes for partial birth abortion that person is far left.

I'm far left, to me Obama looks remarkably like a "free market" Neocon in his polices.

Free market does not mean thousands of more regulation.
Under this administration in Sept. 2012 there was 11,327 new regulations.

Under Obama, 11,327 Pages of Federal Regulations Added | CNS News

In Jan. 2014 141 more new regulations in three days.
Feds list 141 new regulations in only three days | The Daily Caller

Thousands of new regulations is not free market.

We have never had anything like a "free market" which is why I usually put that term in quotes, the government has always used regulation as a weapon against threats to big business interests. They have been using regs against alternative energy for decades and none of you fossil fuel fetishists had a single complaint. These last few years the tables got turned somewhat on the energy industry and the weeping of the petroleum/coal industry has been loud and bitter that their ability to manipulate prices and force out threats to their energy monopoly may be threatened.

 

[Camp]

WTF is a fair price and who the hell decides what's "fair?"

The buyer and the seller determine the fair price. When special rules, laws, regulations and caveats are brought in to the equation the pricing system becomes fouled and ultimately unfair.

Supply and demand I support. It has ZERO to do with "fair" prices..

Well, now is a good time to bring in you comment about price controls. The special rules, laws regulations and caveats create the price controls. They control how the profiteers pay for your natural resources, your property, your assets and your services. By your, "your" meaning the American citizen, you should understand that politicians and corporations are determining how much profit you derive from your holdings.

 

[Bfgrn]

Where does the government get its money?

From the consent of the governed.

When were asked to consent to borrowing 40 cents of every dollar spent by the government? when did we consent to a 17 trillion dollar national debt? When did we consent to zero federal income taxes for half of our citizens? When did we consent to ignoring our immigration laws?

Where did our debt come from? When did massive debt become part of the American economy? Was it New Deal Democrats? No....they PAYED for what they spent. It all started with the 'welfare queen' mentality of Ronny Reagan who switched the federal government from what he critically called, a “tax and spend” policy, to a “borrow and spend” policy.

Reagan switched the federal government from what he critically called, a “tax and spend” policy, to a “borrow and spend” policy, where the government continued its heavy spending, but used borrowed money instead of tax revenue to pay the bills. The results were catastrophic. Although it had taken the United States more than 200 years to accumulate the first $1 trillion of national debt, it took only five years under Reagan to add the second one trillion dollars to the debt. By the end of the 12 years of the Reagan-Bush administrations, the national debt had quadrupled to $4 trillion!

And where was all this angst and concern about debt from conservatives when Bush and Republicans controlled the White House and both houses of Congress for almost a decade??? When Bush was starting a 3 trillion dollar war of ideology in Iraq, there was not a fucking PEEP from you right wingers, just cheers and 'bring 'em on'... And where was this less government mantra? You right wingers LOVED BIG government and government intervention into people lives... the Patriot Act, trashing habeas corpus, the Geneva Conventions and the US War Crimes Act.

And what was the concern in the Bush administration about debt and deficits? NONE...Bush's solution was to eliminate the voices of concern.

Paul O'Neill was fired from his job as George Bush's Treasury Secretary for disagreeing too many times with the president's policy on tax cuts.

The president had promised to cut taxes, and he did. Within six months of taking office, he pushed a trillion dollars worth of tax cuts through Congress.

But O'Neill thought it should have been the end. After 9/11 and the war in Afghanistan, the budget deficit was growing. So at a meeting with the vice president after the mid-term elections in 2002, O'Neill argued against a second round of tax cuts.

"Cheney, at this moment, showed his hand. He said to O'Neill: 'You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter. We won the mid-term elections, this is our due.' … O'Neill was speechless."

"It was not just about not wanting the tax cut. It was about how to use the nation's resources to improve the condition of our society," says O'Neill. "And I thought the weight of working on Social Security and fundamental tax reform was a lot more important than a tax reduction."

 

[NYcarbineer]

Where does the government get its money?

From the consent of the governed.

When were asked to consent to borrowing 40 cents of every dollar spent by the government? when did we consent to a 17 trillion dollar national debt? When did we consent to zero federal income taxes for half of our citizens? When did we consent to ignoring our immigration laws?

When we elected the representatives who did all those things.

 

[LadyGunSlinger]

The buyer and the seller determine the fair price. When special rules, laws, regulations and caveats are brought in to the equation the pricing system becomes fouled and ultimately unfair.

Supply and demand I support. It has ZERO to do with "fair" prices..

Well, now is a good time to bring in you comment about price controls. The special rules, laws regulations and caveats create the price controls. They control how the profiteers pay for your natural resources, your property, your assets and your services. By your, "your" meaning the American citizen, you should understand that politicians and corporations are determining how much profit you derive from your holdings.

Try to stay on topic please.. I asked you who determines what is fair? Conservatives are all about deregulation.. Look to your own party as to manipulation and control. Just look at Wall St. under your President.

 

[LadyGunSlinger]

From the consent of the governed.

When were asked to consent to borrowing 40 cents of every dollar spent by the government? when did we consent to a 17 trillion dollar national debt? When did we consent to zero federal income taxes for half of our citizens? When did we consent to ignoring our immigration laws?

Where did our debt come from? When did massive debt become part of the American economy? Was it New Deal Democrats? No....they PAYED for what they spent. It all started with the 'welfare queen' mentality of Ronny Reagan who switched the federal government from what he critically called, a “tax and spend” policy, to a “borrow and spend” policy.

Reagan switched the federal government from what he critically called, a “tax and spend” policy, to a “borrow and spend” policy, where the government continued its heavy spending, but used borrowed money instead of tax revenue to pay the bills. The results were catastrophic. Although it had taken the United States more than 200 years to accumulate the first $1 trillion of national debt, it took only five years under Reagan to add the second one trillion dollars to the debt. By the end of the 12 years of the Reagan-Bush administrations, the national debt had quadrupled to $4 trillion!

And where was all this angst and concern about debt from conservatives when Bush and Republicans controlled the White House and both houses of Congress for almost a decade??? When Bush was starting a 3 trillion dollar war of ideology in Iraq, there was not a fucking PEEP from you right wingers, just cheers and 'bring 'em on'... And where was this less government mantra? You right wingers LOVED BIG government and government intervention into people lives... the Patriot Act, trashing habeas corpus, the Geneva Conventions and the US War Crimes Act.

And what was the concern in the Bush administration about debt and deficits? NONE...Bush's solution was to eliminate the voices of concern.

Paul O'Neill was fired from his job as George Bush's Treasury Secretary for disagreeing too many times with the president's policy on tax cuts.

The president had promised to cut taxes, and he did. Within six months of taking office, he pushed a trillion dollars worth of tax cuts through Congress.

But O'Neill thought it should have been the end. After 9/11 and the war in Afghanistan, the budget deficit was growing. So at a meeting with the vice president after the mid-term elections in 2002, O'Neill argued against a second round of tax cuts.

"Cheney, at this moment, showed his hand. He said to O'Neill: 'You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter. We won the mid-term elections, this is our due.' … O'Neill was speechless."

"It was not just about not wanting the tax cut. It was about how to use the nation's resources to improve the condition of our society," says O'Neill. "And I thought the weight of working on Social Security and fundamental tax reform was a lot more important than a tax reduction."

Why does your Graph end at 2005????

 

[NYcarbineer]

We got into the debt we're into mainly for two reasons:

1. We stopped paying for the wars we insisted on fighting, and,

2. We bought the myth that tax cuts could pay for themselves by producing higher revenues.

 

[LadyGunSlinger]

From the consent of the governed.

When were asked to consent to borrowing 40 cents of every dollar spent by the government? when did we consent to a 17 trillion dollar national debt? When did we consent to zero federal income taxes for half of our citizens? When did we consent to ignoring our immigration laws?

When we elected the representatives who did all those things.

Let's hear you sing the same tune come Jan 2015 when Republicans control both houses..

 

[LadyGunSlinger]

I want to see every liberal on this forum cheer on and support a Conservative President and Congress when they begin to write their own laws as well.. especially from the Executive Office. Can you imagine a Republican President taking his handy dandy pen like Obama does and outlawing abortion??