Questions.....RE: The Greenhouse Effect

[IanC]

Whats the matter ian, you have the same reading and comprehension problem as toddster. I have never...i repeat NEVER said that it is not possible for radiation to move from cool to warm. Like you, toddster is making up an argument for me and then arguing against that fantasy rather than my actual statements. I have lost count of the number of times I have pointed out to toddster that what I said is that radiation does not move SPONTANEOUSLY from cool to warm...and that you can move as much radiation from cool to warm as you like so long as you are prepared to apply work to get it done

So now you are building a new additional set of epicycles to prop up your ridiculous version of thermodynamics. The 'work' done it!

Hahahaha. Soon you will pick out a definition of work that you can misinterpret in a self serving way.

Why do you 'work' so hard to deny that every object radiates according to its temperature all the time?

By the way, the answer to why Sun's surface radiation reaches us is simple. It is the same reason that some of the Earth's surface radiation escapes directly to space. Most of the Sun's radiation is simply transmitted. The ions that make up the Corona are not blackbodies. And they are very rarified. The vast, vast majority of the Sun's radiation simply does not interact.

So now you are building a new additional set of epicycles to prop up your ridiculous version of thermodynamics.

All his work to prove that back radiation is impossible. What a joke.

Yup. Physicists don't typically call it back radiation, they just call it radiation. Every object radiates, the net radiation describes the heat flow. It's all quite simple really, unless you believe only the net flow is actually created, meaning the warmer object produces less radiation than its temperature suggests, and the cooler object doesn't radiate at all.

Perhaps SSDD'S new found toy, 'work', will explain it all.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Whats the matter ian, you have the same reading and comprehension problem as toddster. I have never...i repeat NEVER said that it is not possible for radiation to move from cool to warm. Like you, toddster is making up an argument for me and then arguing against that fantasy rather than my actual statements. I have lost count of the number of times I have pointed out to toddster that what I said is that radiation does not move SPONTANEOUSLY from cool to warm...and that you can move as much radiation from cool to warm as you like so long as you are prepared to apply work to get it done

So now you are building a new additional set of epicycles to prop up your ridiculous version of thermodynamics. The 'work' done it!

Hahahaha. Soon you will pick out a definition of work that you can misinterpret in a self serving way.

Why do you 'work' so hard to deny that every object radiates according to its temperature all the time?

By the way, the answer to why Sun's surface radiation reaches us is simple. It is the same reason that some of the Earth's surface radiation escapes directly to space. Most of the Sun's radiation is simply transmitted. The ions that make up the Corona are not blackbodies. And they are very rarified. The vast, vast majority of the Sun's radiation simply does not interact.

So now you are building a new additional set of epicycles to prop up your ridiculous version of thermodynamics.

All his work to prove that back radiation is impossible. What a joke.

Yup. Physicists don't typically call it back radiation, they just call it radiation. Every object radiates, the net radiation describes the heat flow. It's all quite simple really, unless you believe only the net flow is actually created, meaning the warmer object produces less radiation than its temperature suggests, and the cooler object doesn't radiate at all.

Perhaps SSDD'S new found toy, 'work', will explain it all.

Yeah, the only thing better than smart photons is a radiation dimmer switch.

I keep looking for a version of Stefan-Boltzmann that says...

"total radiant heat energy emitted from a surface is proportional to the fourth power of its absolute temperature, unless warmer matter is nearby and then energy emitted is zero"

Haven't found one yet. Apparently neither has SSDD.

 

[SSDD]

[

Work done thousands of miles away, in the Sun's core allows radiation to move from the cooler surface to the warmer corona? Is that your final answer?

That's the thing with science...right now, that is what they believe. That may be subject to change as we learn more about the sun. It is a pretty sure bet, however, that the energy isn't moving spontaneously from the surface to the corona.

 

[SSDD]

So now you are building a new additional set of epicycles to prop up your ridiculous version of thermodynamics. The 'work' done it!

Do you have a bit of dementia, or some memory loss setting in ian? How many times have I posted the second law of thermodynamics for you? No problem though, it explains a lot...here, refresh your failing memory.

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Hahahaha. Soon you will pick out a definition of work that you can misinterpret in a self serving way.

Ha ha yourself. If you had any reading comprehension skills at all, you would see that I am not interpreting, or misinterpreting anything. I take the statement at face value. It is, after all, a pretty explicit statement. You are the one who is interpreting, altering, attempting to force it to say something that simply is not there.

Why do you 'work' so hard to deny that every object radiates according to its temperature all the time?

Not me denying ian...The SB law says that a theoretical black body, alone, in the absence of any other matter is the only thing that radiates according to its temperature all the time. When it is in the presence of other matter, it radiates according to its emissivity, its area, and the difference between its own temperature and the temperature of its surroundings....in a one way gross energy flow fashion. You are the one who denies the physics, you are the one who denies the explicit mathematical equations, you are the one who denies every observation and measurement ever made in favor of an unobservable, unmeasurable, untestable mathematical model which says something different than the physical law and its accompanying mathematical equations.

By the way, the answer to why Sun's surface radiation reaches us is simple. It is the same reason that some of the Earth's surface radiation escapes directly to space. Most of the Sun's radiation is simply transmitted. The ions that make up the Corona are not blackbodies. And they are very rarified. The vast, vast majority of the Sun's radiation simply does not interact.

So write a paper ian...I am sure science will be fascinated and relieved to know that it isn't a mystery any longer. It would be nice to know everything...but it is tragic to think you do and to be so positive when you don't have the first piece of actual evidence to back you up.

 

[SSDD]

It depends on which model you are talking about, of course.

Only the ones that run contrary to observation and measurement...you know, the ones that even require you to complicate a simplified equation in an effort to make it say something that the actual equation doesn't...the fraudulent ones.

In physics the model for thermodynamics is solid. Any new model would only expand the power to explain, leaving the present model intact. Einstein improved Newtonian physics, he did not prove it wrong for normal terrestrial conditions.

The most correct model states that energy does not move spontaneously from cool to warm. A correct model would explain the mechanism for that fact. Any incorrect model makes assumptions that it is happening but we just can't measure it.

QM and quantum statistics improved classical physics, and produce the same results. But now we have a very good understanding of WHY it happens that way.

I know you can't admit it but quantum statistics has made a mess of physics...And you have no more understanding now that you did before...you just have some interesting stories to tell...and in your case to believe in as if it were religion.

Edit- I forgot to ask. Every observation and measurement prove which model wrong? Are the models for general physics wrong because you don't like a climate scientist's model for snowfall in Antarctica?

Any model that claims two way net energy flow.

 

[SSDD]

Whats the matter ian, you have the same reading and comprehension problem as toddster. I have never...i repeat NEVER said that it is not possible for radiation to move from cool to warm. Like you, toddster is making up an argument for me and then arguing against that fantasy rather than my actual statements. I have lost count of the number of times I have pointed out to toddster that what I said is that radiation does not move SPONTANEOUSLY from cool to warm...and that you can move as much radiation from cool to warm as you like so long as you are prepared to apply work to get it done

So now you are building a new additional set of epicycles to prop up your ridiculous version of thermodynamics. The 'work' done it!

Hahahaha. Soon you will pick out a definition of work that you can misinterpret in a self serving way.

Why do you 'work' so hard to deny that every object radiates according to its temperature all the time?

By the way, the answer to why Sun's surface radiation reaches us is simple. It is the same reason that some of the Earth's surface radiation escapes directly to space. Most of the Sun's radiation is simply transmitted. The ions that make up the Corona are not blackbodies. And they are very rarified. The vast, vast majority of the Sun's radiation simply does not interact.

So now you are building a new additional set of epicycles to prop up your ridiculous version of thermodynamics.

All his work to prove that back radiation is impossible. What a joke.

Yup. Physicists don't typically call it back radiation, they just call it radiation. Every object radiates, the net radiation describes the heat flow. It's all quite simple really, unless you believe only the net flow is actually created, meaning the warmer object produces less radiation than its temperature suggests, and the cooler object doesn't radiate at all.

Perhaps SSDD'S new found toy, 'work', will explain it all.

Net radiation describes a fantasy. And again, do try to either refresh your memory or stop deliberately lying. go back and look at all the postings I have provided of the exact statement I provided above. My argument has not changed because it is based on that very statement. You have just become either more stupid or more forgetful, or more dishonest..take your pick.

 

[SSDD]

Yeah, the only thing better than smart photons is a radiation dimmer switch.

Set up the SB equation ...make the radiator any size and emissivity you like T1 = 40K and T2 = 30K what does P equal.

Now change T2 to 38K....what does P equal now? Less....there is your dimmer switch described in the physical law itself. Strange that you would deny the physical law.

I keep looking for a version of Stefan-Boltzmann that says...

"total radiant heat energy emitted from a surface is proportional to the fourth power of its absolute temperature, unless warmer matter is nearby and then energy emitted is zero"

Sorry you are to f'ing stupid to read that very statement in the physical law itself. Set T1 and T2 to the same temperature. P = 0. In your strange world, what does zero mean?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

[

Work done thousands of miles away, in the Sun's core allows radiation to move from the cooler surface to the warmer corona? Is that your final answer?

That's the thing with science...right now, that is what they believe. That may be subject to change as we learn more about the sun. It is a pretty sure bet, however, that the energy isn't moving spontaneously from the surface to the corona.

What do you believe?
Can work done thousands of miles away allow energy from the cool surface to be emitted toward the hotter corona?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Yeah, the only thing better than smart photons is a radiation dimmer switch.

Set up the SB equation ...make the radiator any size and emissivity you like T1 = 40K and T2 = 30K what does P equal.

Now change T2 to 38K....what does P equal now? Less....there is your dimmer switch described in the physical law itself. Strange that you would deny the physical law.

I keep looking for a version of Stefan-Boltzmann that says...

"total radiant heat energy emitted from a surface is proportional to the fourth power of its absolute temperature, unless warmer matter is nearby and then energy emitted is zero"

Sorry you are to f'ing stupid to read that very statement in the physical law itself. Set T1 and T2 to the same temperature. P = 0. In your strange world, what does zero mean?

Zero means net energy loss is zero.
Any luck finding 2 sources that agree with your feeling that it really means no emissions at all?

 

[SSDD]

Zero means net energy loss is zero.
Any luck finding 2 sources that agree with your feeling that it really means no emissions at all?

Zero means zero...net means net....they are two different things out here in the real world.....I suppose they might mean the same thing in the phantasy physics world in which you reside.

And good luck to you finding an observation and measurement of spontaneous two way energy flow...or energy moving spontaneously from cool to warm. Who needs sources when every observation and measurement ever made support your position?

 

[SSDD]

What do you believe?
Can work done thousands of miles away allow energy from the cool surface to be emitted toward the hotter corona?

Makes more sense than believing that energy is spontaneously flowing from a cool region to a much hotter region...any idea at all makes more sense than believing that one can use an ice cube to heat up anything other than a colder ice cube.

 

[IanC]

So now you are building a new additional set of epicycles to prop up your ridiculous version of thermodynamics. The 'work' done it!

Do you have a bit of dementia, or some memory loss setting in ian? How many times have I posted the second law of thermodynamics for you? No problem though, it explains a lot...here, refresh your failing memory.

Second Law of Thermodynamics: It is not possible for heat to flow from a colder body to a warmer body without any work having been done to accomplish this flow. Energy will not flow spontaneously from a low temperature object to a higher temperature object.

Hahahaha. Soon you will pick out a definition of work that you can misinterpret in a self serving way.

Ha ha yourself. If you had any reading comprehension skills at all, you would see that I am not interpreting, or misinterpreting anything. I take the statement at face value. It is, after all, a pretty explicit statement. You are the one who is interpreting, altering, attempting to force it to say something that simply is not there.

Why do you 'work' so hard to deny that every object radiates according to its temperature all the time?

Not me denying ian...The SB law says that a theoretical black body, alone, in the absence of any other matter is the only thing that radiates according to its temperature all the time. When it is in the presence of other matter, it radiates according to its emissivity, its area, and the difference between its own temperature and the temperature of its surroundings....in a one way gross energy flow fashion. You are the one who denies the physics, you are the one who denies the explicit mathematical equations, you are the one who denies every observation and measurement ever made in favor of an unobservable, unmeasurable, untestable mathematical model which says something different than the physical law and its accompanying mathematical equations.

By the way, the answer to why Sun's surface radiation reaches us is simple. It is the same reason that some of the Earth's surface radiation escapes directly to space. Most of the Sun's radiation is simply transmitted. The ions that make up the Corona are not blackbodies. And they are very rarified. The vast, vast majority of the Sun's radiation simply does not interact.

So write a paper ian...I am sure science will be fascinated and relieved to know that it isn't a mystery any longer. It would be nice to know everything...but it is tragic to think you do and to be so positive when you don't have the first piece of actual evidence to back you up.

There never was a mystery to be explained. Todd was pointing out how the Sun's surface radiation was traveling towards a much hotter object, which totally disagrees with your stated version of the SLoT.

I think it is a poor example so I stayed out of it until now.

It was directly addressed to you, so you should have answered it. But you ducked it, as per usual.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Zero means net energy loss is zero.
Any luck finding 2 sources that agree with your feeling that it really means no emissions at all?

Zero means zero...net means net....they are two different things out here in the real world.....I suppose they might mean the same thing in the phantasy physics world in which you reside.

And good luck to you finding an observation and measurement of spontaneous two way energy flow...or energy moving spontaneously from cool to warm. Who needs sources when every observation and measurement ever made support your position?

Zero means zero...net means net....they are two different things out here in the real world...

Absolutely.

Radiation is the emission of electromagnetic (EM) energy, particularly infrared photons that carry heat energy. All matter emits and absorbs some EM radiation, the net amount of which determines whether this causes a loss or gain in heat.

What Is Thermodynamics?

Out here, in the real world, your own source said net.

I suppose they might mean the same thing in the phantasy physics world in which you reside.

Maybe in your fantasy world, you have a couple of sources that say emissions equal zero.
Still waiting for you to provide them.

Who needs sources......

You do. LOL!

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What do you believe?
Can work done thousands of miles away allow energy from the cool surface to be emitted toward the hotter corona?

Makes more sense than believing that energy is spontaneously flowing from a cool region to a much hotter region...any idea at all makes more sense than believing that one can use an ice cube to heat up anything other than a colder ice cube.

Makes more sense than believing that energy is spontaneously flowing from a cool region to a much hotter region.

Makes mores sense, but DO YOU BELIEVE?

Just say it. "Work done thousands of miles away some how makes its way to the surface, to allow non-spontaneous flow of energy from cool to hot"

 

[IanC]

What do you believe?
Can work done thousands of miles away allow energy from the cool surface to be emitted toward the hotter corona?

Makes more sense than believing that energy is spontaneously flowing from a cool region to a much hotter region...any idea at all makes more sense than believing that one can use an ice cube to heat up anything other than a colder ice cube.

SSDD does not believe in the atomic and subatomic world. He thinks it's only a fairytale. Despite the millions of experiments, and the insights drawn from the data produced.

Photons are created in response to internal conditions present in particles. That is why all objects above absolute zero emit photons in a highly predictable way on average. Single events are not predictable.

All objects cool by expelling energy via photon emission. They are all trying to get to absolute zero. Counter to that purpose, the radiation from one object is absorbed by a different object. Cooling only happens if the object can radiate faster than it absorbs. A universal and endless game of 'hot potato'.

This is the underlying mechanism for the second law of thermodynamics. Warmer objects emit more photons, at a higher energy wavelength, than do cooler objects. The preponderance of net energy flows from warm to cool. But all objects radiate, all the time, absolute zero is unattainable.

 

[IanC]

SSDD believes the universe is playing a game of Go Go Stop, with some mystical entity calling the shots. He thinks objects stop radiating at each other if they are the same temperature, and can only radiate an amount equal to the net flow when they are not. He has no clue as to how this information is transferred by the mystical entity, no clue as to how the radiation is forbidden to emit inside the atomic particle, no clue at all.

Occam's Razor would suggest that a simple two way flow of radiation is the correct explanation. Everything radiating all the time, according to it's temperature. No need for mystical entities, no unexplainable mechanisms to forbid emissions.

 

[IanC]

The spherical cavity experiment is brilliantly conceived because it constrains outside influence. The cavity is bathed in radiation from a known temperature, and all angles are covered. No extra calculations are necessary. The radiation coming out of the aperture is a near perfect exemplar of the conditions inside, the radiation that is constantly being produced and absorbed by the blackbody.

Of course SSDD thinks there is no radiation present until the aperture is opened. And that only particles that have a direct line-of-sight to the outside are allowed to radiate, and only in that specific direction. All other particles are held in limbo by some mystical entity, by unknown and presumably unknowable mechanisms.

 

[IanC]

"
Thermal radiation is electromagnetic radiation generated by the thermal motion of charged particles in matter. All matter with a temperature greater than absolute zero emits thermal radiation. When the temperature of a body is greater than absolute zero, inter-atomic collisions cause the kinetic energy of the atoms or molecules to change. This results in charge-acceleration and/or dipole oscillation which produces electromagnetic radiation, and the wide spectrum of radiation reflects the wide spectrum of energies and accelerations that occur even at a single temperature.
"

This would suggest that the only way to stop radiation is to stop movement. It also brings up the confounding factor that temperature is not uniform speed but an average speed.

There are so many problems with his version of physics, so many discontuities, and he refuses to address any of them.

 

[SSDD]

There never was a mystery to be explained.

Again, write a paper...because according to science, it still remains a mystery which happens to have a few more plausible explanations now. You have become incredibly stupid in your arrogance ian..and getting more stupid all the time...making statements that you can not possibly support.

Todd was pointing out how the Sun's surface radiation was traveling towards a much hotter object, which totally disagrees with your stated version of the SLoT.

And stupider and stupider. The second law doesn't say that energy can't move from cool to warm..it says that it can not move SPONTANEOUSLY from cool to warm. Science is beginning to scratch the surface towards finding the mechanism...the mode of work that allows the energy movement to happen.

I think it is a poor example so I stayed out of it until now.

It isn't even an example...it is just gross stupidity. Do you think that energy moving from the sun to the corona and causing it to be orders of magnitude hotter than the surface represents any sort of net energy exchange between a cooler object and a warmer object? It is so far away from the sort of net energy exchange that you believe in and which toddster was apparently trying so desperately to demonstrate that it is completely laughable...and now he has lowered the bar to a new level of stupid by apparently insisting that work happening below the surface of the sun could not be responsible because it is so far away.

One must wonder why you don't attempt to set him straight on is extremely poor choice of example...but then, anyone who is actually looking doesn't really need to ask...do they?

It was directly addressed to you, so you should have answered it. But you ducked it, as per usual.

I didn't duck anything. I answered the same as I always answer. Energy can move from cool to warm..it just can't happen spontaneously. You guys have become so engrossed in the fake arguments you make up for me and rallying against them that you seem to be completely unaware that you are no longer arguing against me, but some figment of your imaginations that you believe to be me. I said that the energy is not moving spontaneously from the surface to the corona....according to the second law of thermodynamics...can you, in any way demonstrate that it is, in fact, moving spontaneously from the surface to the corona?

 

[SSDD]

"
This would suggest that the only way to stop radiation is to stop movement. It also brings up the confounding factor that temperature is not uniform speed but an average speed.

There are so many problems with his version of physics, so many discontuities, and he refuses to address any of them.

I have addressed them all...what I don't address is the arguments you fabricate and attribute to me since they are not my arguments. You, in your faith based stupidity become less interesting all the time.