Questions.....RE: The Greenhouse Effect

[IanC]

Hey polarbear, why don't you pull out some more inane examples like the rolled steel coming out of a blast furnace and being cooled by a propane torch? Trivially true as long as you ignore the vast previous energy input, and only true until the steel cools to the temperature of the torch. What point were you trying to make by substituting a large energy input for a small one? Why are you only interested in the seemingly counterintuitive results as the steel moves towards a new equilibrium? Are you also surprised when food cools down in your oven after you reduce the thermostat from 400F to 200F?

And why do you keep attributing the ridiculous strawman to me of adding two temperatures together to get a higher temperature? You never actually quote my words except when you find a grammatical type of error.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

"Photons can see the location and temperature of their targets and aren't emitted if they'll hit warmer matter, even if the targets are millions of light years away"

This isn't your theory?

Of course not...that is just the best explanation that you wack jobs could come up with as a reason that energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm...We know so little about the fundamental mechanism...scratch that..we know nothing about the fundamental mechanism of energy change...we don't know what makes it happen...so we have no idea what is going on there...but there is a reason that we never observe energy moving spontaneously from cool to warm...perhaps some day we will know...

Does it mean that your original theory is wrong?

First, I have no theory...and my position has always been that energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm...it is your lack of reading skills that have left you thinking that my position is otherwise...

Are you saying that the Sun does work and the Sun can emit photons that are allowed to hit warmer matter?
If that's the case, which photons are not originally caused by work?

Are you claiming that MHD waves and plasma jets aren't work?

I guess that means most photons in the Universe aren't restricted in any way?

The key word in that sentence is guess....which is precisely where science is in its statements regarding energy exchange...it is all guessing...and I can't help but wonder why you wackos want to guess that something is happening that we can't, and never will observe over guessing that something is happening that supports every observation ever made.

Of course not...that is just the best explanation that you wack jobs could come up with as a reason that energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm

No, that was your explanation for the directions photons moved and why.

First, I have no theory

Your theory is that photons are prevented from moving from the cool atmosphere of Earth, to the warmer surface, because the 2nd Law, which doesn't mention photons, requires photons to know their course and the temperature of matter around them.

Are you claiming that MHD waves and plasma jets aren't work?

For at least the 4th time, the corona and the reason for its high temperature don't matter.
What matters is your claim that the cooler surface CANNOT emit toward warmer matter.

The key word in that sentence is guess

It's true, we have to guess about your theory, because you can't provide any source that agrees with your claims......how else can we flesh out your silly "theory" without guessing?

Try again?

Photons can't move from cool to warm, but they do when they move from the Sun's surface to the corona
because ________________.

 

[SSDD]

Your theory is that photons are prevented from moving from the cool atmosphere of Earth, to the warmer surface, because the 2nd Law, which doesn't mention photons, requires photons to know their course and the temperature of matter around them.

Are photons, assuming they exist, energy? The science dictionary says that they are. The second law says that energy can not move spontaneously from cool to warm. Which part of that are you confused about?

For at least the 4th time, the corona and the reason for its high temperature don't matter.
What matters is your claim that the cooler surface CANNOT emit toward warmer matter.

And yet again, I have not claimed that the cooler surface of the sun CANNOT emit toward the warmer corona..I have stated that energy does not move SPONTANEOUSLY from cool to warm. You can move all the energy from cool to warm that you want so long as you apply enough work to get it done. It is a simple concept..what is it about the word spontaneous that you fail to grasp or don't seem to be able to apply to the discussion?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Your theory is that photons are prevented from moving from the cool atmosphere of Earth, to the warmer surface, because the 2nd Law, which doesn't mention photons, requires photons to know their course and the temperature of matter around them.

Are photons, assuming they exist, energy? The science dictionary says that they are. The second law says that energy can not move spontaneously from cool to warm. Which part of that are you confused about?

For at least the 4th time, the corona and the reason for its high temperature don't matter.
What matters is your claim that the cooler surface CANNOT emit toward warmer matter.

And yet again, I have not claimed that the cooler surface of the sun CANNOT emit toward the warmer corona..I have stated that energy does not move SPONTANEOUSLY from cool to warm. You can move all the energy from cool to warm that you want so long as you apply enough work to get it done. It is a simple concept..what is it about the word spontaneous that you fail to grasp or don't seem to be able to apply to the discussion?

Are photons, assuming they exist, energy? The science dictionary says that they are.

Yes.

The second law says that energy can not move spontaneously from cool to warm.

Except it doesn't say that. It says heat.

Which part of that are you confused about?

I'm not confused about you confusing heat and energy. I'm very clear about your confusion.

And yet again, I have not claimed that the cooler surface of the sun CANNOT emit toward the warmer corona.

You just won't explain why, as compared to other cooler matter, this particular matter is allowed to emit toward warmer matter.

You can move all the energy from cool to warm that you want so long as you apply enough work to get it done.

Where is the work at the Sun's surface?

 

[SSDD]

Except it doesn't say that. It says heat.

These credible sources, as well as many many others state explicitly that heat is a form of energy and energy does not move spontaneously from cool to warm.

What Is Thermodynamics?

clip:
The First Law states that the total increase in the energy of a system is equal to the increase in thermal energy plus the work done on the system. This states that heat is a form of energy and is therefore subject to the principle of conservation.

Heat

clip:
Heat
In physics, heat is a form of energy associated with the motion of atoms, molecules and other particles which comprise matter; generally defined as energy in motion.


14.1: Heat

Clip: As noted in Temperature, Kinetic Theory, and the Gas Laws, heat is often confused with temperature. For example, we may say the heat was unbearable, when we actually mean that the temperature was high. Heat is a form of energy, whereas temperature is not. The misconception arises because we are sensitive to the flow of heat, rather than the temperature.

Certificate Physics form 3...page 241

Certificate Physics Form 3

Clip: Heat is a form of energy

Environmental Physics

Environmental Physics

Clip: Heat is a form of energy

I'm not confused about you confusing heat and energy. I'm very clear about your confusion.

Clearly you are since a lot of very credible sources say that heat is a form of energy.

You just won't explain why, as compared to other cooler matter, this particular matter is allowed to emit toward warmer matter.

As I have stated before, there is some work being applied that moves the energy from cool to warm..the fact that we don't have a grasp of the exact nature of that work does not mean that it isn't there. Work being the operative word there...the opposite of spontaneous which you still don't seem to be able to apply to the discussion.

You can move all the energy from cool to warm that you want so long as you apply enough work to get it done.

Where is the work at the Sun's surface?

Various hypotheses are out there...that is why they are calling it a mystery...you are the only one who seems to believe that all that energy is moving spontaneously from the cooler surface to the warmer corona...I don't see anyone else suggesting that the second law is wrong...all I see is scientists calling it a mystery and looking for the mechanism that causes it to happen.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Except it doesn't say that. It says heat.

These credible sources, as well as many many others state explicitly that heat is a form of energy and energy does not move spontaneously from cool to warm.

What Is Thermodynamics?

clip:
The First Law states that the total increase in the energy of a system is equal to the increase in thermal energy plus the work done on the system. This states that heat is a form of energy and is therefore subject to the principle of conservation.

Heat

clip:
Heat
In physics, heat is a form of energy associated with the motion of atoms, molecules and other particles which comprise matter; generally defined as energy in motion.


14.1: Heat

Clip: As noted in Temperature, Kinetic Theory, and the Gas Laws, heat is often confused with temperature. For example, we may say the heat was unbearable, when we actually mean that the temperature was high. Heat is a form of energy, whereas temperature is not. The misconception arises because we are sensitive to the flow of heat, rather than the temperature.

Certificate Physics form 3...page 241

Certificate Physics Form 3

Clip: Heat is a form of energy

Environmental Physics

Environmental Physics

Clip: Heat is a form of energy

I'm not confused about you confusing heat and energy. I'm very clear about your confusion.

Clearly you are since a lot of very credible sources say that heat is a form of energy.

You just won't explain why, as compared to other cooler matter, this particular matter is allowed to emit toward warmer matter.

As I have stated before, there is some work being applied that moves the energy from cool to warm..the fact that we don't have a grasp of the exact nature of that work does not mean that it isn't there. Work being the operative word there...the opposite of spontaneous which you still don't seem to be able to apply to the discussion.

You can move all the energy from cool to warm that you want so long as you apply enough work to get it done.

Where is the work at the Sun's surface?

Various hypotheses are out there...that is why they are calling it a mystery...you are the only one who seems to believe that all that energy is moving spontaneously from the cooler surface to the warmer corona...I don't see anyone else suggesting that the second law is wrong...all I see is scientists calling it a mystery and looking for the mechanism that causes it to happen.

These credible sources, as well as many many others state explicitly that heat is a form of energy and energy does not move spontaneously from cool to warm.

Second Law of Thermodynamics

GSU says no energy from cold to hot refers to net transfer of energy.
Energetic particles can travel from cold to hot.

As I have stated before, there is some work being applied that moves the energy from cool to warm

Right, somehow the work occurring at the core makes its way to the surface.

the fact that we don't have a grasp of the exact nature of that work does not mean that it isn't there.

You don't have a grasp on the nature of fusion?
Or you don't have a grasp on how that fusion energy "works" its way to the surface? Both?
Or is your confusion in an area not named here?

Various hypotheses are out there...that is why they are calling it a mystery..

I've never heard a hypothesis that posits work occurring on the surface.
Can you post a couple?
Or does work at the core allow this "mysterious" cool to hotter flow?

I don't see anyone else suggesting that the second law is wrong...

I know, you're the only one with that unique suggestion.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Except it doesn't say that. It says heat.

These credible sources, as well as many many others state explicitly that heat is a form of energy and energy does not move spontaneously from cool to warm.

What Is Thermodynamics?

clip:
The First Law states that the total increase in the energy of a system is equal to the increase in thermal energy plus the work done on the system. This states that heat is a form of energy and is therefore subject to the principle of conservation.

Heat

clip:
Heat
In physics, heat is a form of energy associated with the motion of atoms, molecules and other particles which comprise matter; generally defined as energy in motion.


14.1: Heat

Clip: As noted in Temperature, Kinetic Theory, and the Gas Laws, heat is often confused with temperature. For example, we may say the heat was unbearable, when we actually mean that the temperature was high. Heat is a form of energy, whereas temperature is not. The misconception arises because we are sensitive to the flow of heat, rather than the temperature.

Certificate Physics form 3...page 241

Certificate Physics Form 3

Clip: Heat is a form of energy

Environmental Physics

Environmental Physics

Clip: Heat is a form of energy

I'm not confused about you confusing heat and energy. I'm very clear about your confusion.

Clearly you are since a lot of very credible sources say that heat is a form of energy.

You just won't explain why, as compared to other cooler matter, this particular matter is allowed to emit toward warmer matter.

As I have stated before, there is some work being applied that moves the energy from cool to warm..the fact that we don't have a grasp of the exact nature of that work does not mean that it isn't there. Work being the operative word there...the opposite of spontaneous which you still don't seem to be able to apply to the discussion.

You can move all the energy from cool to warm that you want so long as you apply enough work to get it done.

Where is the work at the Sun's surface?

Various hypotheses are out there...that is why they are calling it a mystery...you are the only one who seems to believe that all that energy is moving spontaneously from the cooler surface to the warmer corona...I don't see anyone else suggesting that the second law is wrong...all I see is scientists calling it a mystery and looking for the mechanism that causes it to happen.

Thanks for your source.

Radiation is the emission of electromagnetic (EM) energy, particularly infrared photons that carry heat energy. All matter emits and absorbs some EM radiation, the net amount of which determines whether this causes a loss or gain in heat.

What Is Thermodynamics?

That's weird! It says "All matter emits and absorbs some EM radiation" Emits AND absorbs....
Your theory says it would emit or absorb.....can't do both at the same time, right?

It also says, "the NET amount of which determines whether this causes a loss or gain in heat"

Net amount? I wonder what they mean by that?

 

[SSDD]

That's weird! It says "All matter emits and absorbs some EM radiation" Emits AND absorbs....
Your theory says it would emit or absorb.....can't do both at the same time, right?

All matter does...all matter can absorb energy from warmer objects and all matter emits energy which is absorbed by cooler objects...nothing complicated there and it is born out by every observation and measurement ever made.

It also says, "the NET amount of which determines whether this causes a loss or gain in heat"

Ask them to provide you with an observation and measurement of a net energy flow...ask them if it has ever been observed outside of an unobservable, unmeasurable, untestable mathematical mode.

 

[SSDD]

I've never heard a hypothesis that posits work occurring on the surface.

How stupid are you? What makes you think that only work occurring at the surface could cause energy to flow from the surface to the corona?

Can you post a couple?

Sure, since you apparently aren't smart enough to look it up on your own.

New clue to solving the mystery of the Sun's hot atmosphere

clip:
"Why the Sun's corona is so hot is a long-standing puzzle. It's as if a flame were coming out of an ice cube. It doesn't make any sense! Solar astronomers think that the key lies in the magnetic field, but there are still arguments about the details," added Dr Brooks.

The team of scientists analysed observations from the Solar Dynamics Observatory at a time of low activity (solar minimum) starting in 2010, and through till 2014 when huge magnetic active regions crossing the solar disk were common.

An unknown mechanism preferentially transports certain elements, such as Iron, into the corona instead of others, giving the corona its own distinctive elemental signature. The team think that the mechanism that separates the elements and supplies material to the corona may also be closely related to the transport of energy, and that understanding it may provide clues to explain the whole coronal heating process.


NASA Might Have Just Solved One of The Sun's Oldest Mysteries

Clip:
Now, based on observations from the IRIS (Interface Region Imaging Spectrograph) mission, NASA researchers think the corona is partly heated by 'heat bombs' going off, caused by blasts of energy from magnetic fields criss-crossing and realigning in the corona.

This could also answer the question of whether the corona is being heated uniformly all at once, or in separate pockets that quickly spread out across the upper atmosphere - something scientists have been wondering about since the corona's intense heat was discovered.



I read that the sun's surface temperature is about 6,000 degrees Celsius but that the corona--the sun's atmosphere--is much hotter, millions of degrees. How does all that energy get into the corona without heating up the surface?

Clip: "Basically, one cannot account for the heating of the corona by a radiative flow, so we think the corona is heated by some sort of magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) wave flowing out of lower levels of the sun. Images of the sun in the far ultraviolet and in X-rays (acquired most recently by the Solar and Heliospheric Observatory spacecraft, the Yohkoh satellite, and the NIXT rockets) show that the heating of the corona is localized in solar active regions, which indicates the important role played by the magnetic field. There are perhaps a dozen specific models that have been proposed to account for the high temperature of the corona.

Or does work at the core allow this "mysterious" cool to hotter flow?

You just don't seem to be able to hid your ignorance...that is because you keep talking but never bother to look anything up...according to the Scientific American article, they state quite explicitly that one can't account for the heating of the corona by a radiative flow...sorry guy, you are just wrong and the more research that is done, the more wrong the more eivdent that becomes. The search is for the mechanism (work) that moves that energy to the corona...no one but you assumes that it is the result of a simple radiative flow.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

I've never heard a hypothesis that posits work occurring on the surface.

How stupid are you? What makes you think that only work occurring at the surface could cause energy to flow from the surface to the corona?

Can you post a couple?

Sure, since you apparently aren't smart enough to look it up on your own.

New clue to solving the mystery of the Sun's hot atmosphere

clip:
"Why the Sun's corona is so hot is a long-standing puzzle. It's as if a flame were coming out of an ice cube. It doesn't make any sense! Solar astronomers think that the key lies in the magnetic field, but there are still arguments about the details," added Dr Brooks.

The team of scientists analysed observations from the Solar Dynamics Observatory at a time of low activity (solar minimum) starting in 2010, and through till 2014 when huge magnetic active regions crossing the solar disk were common.

An unknown mechanism preferentially transports certain elements, such as Iron, into the corona instead of others, giving the corona its own distinctive elemental signature. The team think that the mechanism that separates the elements and supplies material to the corona may also be closely related to the transport of energy, and that understanding it may provide clues to explain the whole coronal heating process.


NASA Might Have Just Solved One of The Sun's Oldest Mysteries

Clip:
Now, based on observations from the IRIS (Interface Region Imaging Spectrograph) mission, NASA researchers think the corona is partly heated by 'heat bombs' going off, caused by blasts of energy from magnetic fields criss-crossing and realigning in the corona.

This could also answer the question of whether the corona is being heated uniformly all at once, or in separate pockets that quickly spread out across the upper atmosphere - something scientists have been wondering about since the corona's intense heat was discovered.



I read that the sun's surface temperature is about 6,000 degrees Celsius but that the corona--the sun's atmosphere--is much hotter, millions of degrees. How does all that energy get into the corona without heating up the surface?

Clip: "Basically, one cannot account for the heating of the corona by a radiative flow, so we think the corona is heated by some sort of magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) wave flowing out of lower levels of the sun. Images of the sun in the far ultraviolet and in X-rays (acquired most recently by the Solar and Heliospheric Observatory spacecraft, the Yohkoh satellite, and the NIXT rockets) show that the heating of the corona is localized in solar active regions, which indicates the important role played by the magnetic field. There are perhaps a dozen specific models that have been proposed to account for the high temperature of the corona.

Or does work at the core allow this "mysterious" cool to hotter flow?

You just don't seem to be able to hid your ignorance...that is because you keep talking but never bother to look anything up...according to the Scientific American article, they state quite explicitly that one can't account for the heating of the corona by a radiative flow...sorry guy, you are just wrong and the more research that is done, the more wrong the more eivdent that becomes. The search is for the mechanism (work) that moves that energy to the corona...no one but you assumes that it is the result of a simple radiative flow.

How stupid are you? What makes you think that only work occurring at the surface could cause energy to flow from the surface to the corona?

What makes you think work at the core could cause energy to flow from the surface to the corona?

Sure, since you apparently aren't smart enough to look it up on your own.

Thanks so much.

Why the Sun's corona is so hot is a long-standing puzzle..........

Clip: ​

Now, based on observations from the IRIS (Interface Region Imaging Spectrograph) mission, NASA researchers think the corona is partly heated by 'heat bombs' going off,​

​

How do these theories about the corona explain the work you feel is happening at the surface?​

​

I guess you aren't smart enough to answer the questions asked about the surface, you keep answering the ones no one is asking about the corona.​

​

according to the Scientific American article, they state quite explicitly that one can't account for the heating of the corona by a radiative flow​

​

I've stated quite explicitly, I don't care why or how the corona gets so hot, only why the Sun's surface violates your claim that "cooler matter simply will not emit toward hotter matter because......2nd Law".​

​

The search is for the mechanism (work) that moves that energy to the corona...no one but you assumes that it is the result of a simple radiative flow.​

​

I have never, not even once, posted any assumption about the corona.​

Because I don't care about the corona. Clear yet?​

​

​

​

 

[IanC]

I've never heard a hypothesis that posits work occurring on the surface.

How stupid are you? What makes you think that only work occurring at the surface could cause energy to flow from the surface to the corona?

Can you post a couple?

Sure, since you apparently aren't smart enough to look it up on your own.

New clue to solving the mystery of the Sun's hot atmosphere

clip:
"Why the Sun's corona is so hot is a long-standing puzzle. It's as if a flame were coming out of an ice cube. It doesn't make any sense! Solar astronomers think that the key lies in the magnetic field, but there are still arguments about the details," added Dr Brooks.

The team of scientists analysed observations from the Solar Dynamics Observatory at a time of low activity (solar minimum) starting in 2010, and through till 2014 when huge magnetic active regions crossing the solar disk were common.

An unknown mechanism preferentially transports certain elements, such as Iron, into the corona instead of others, giving the corona its own distinctive elemental signature. The team think that the mechanism that separates the elements and supplies material to the corona may also be closely related to the transport of energy, and that understanding it may provide clues to explain the whole coronal heating process.


NASA Might Have Just Solved One of The Sun's Oldest Mysteries

Clip:
Now, based on observations from the IRIS (Interface Region Imaging Spectrograph) mission, NASA researchers think the corona is partly heated by 'heat bombs' going off, caused by blasts of energy from magnetic fields criss-crossing and realigning in the corona.

This could also answer the question of whether the corona is being heated uniformly all at once, or in separate pockets that quickly spread out across the upper atmosphere - something scientists have been wondering about since the corona's intense heat was discovered.



I read that the sun's surface temperature is about 6,000 degrees Celsius but that the corona--the sun's atmosphere--is much hotter, millions of degrees. How does all that energy get into the corona without heating up the surface?

Clip: "Basically, one cannot account for the heating of the corona by a radiative flow, so we think the corona is heated by some sort of magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) wave flowing out of lower levels of the sun. Images of the sun in the far ultraviolet and in X-rays (acquired most recently by the Solar and Heliospheric Observatory spacecraft, the Yohkoh satellite, and the NIXT rockets) show that the heating of the corona is localized in solar active regions, which indicates the important role played by the magnetic field. There are perhaps a dozen specific models that have been proposed to account for the high temperature of the corona.

Or does work at the core allow this "mysterious" cool to hotter flow?

You just don't seem to be able to hid your ignorance...that is because you keep talking but never bother to look anything up...according to the Scientific American article, they state quite explicitly that one can't account for the heating of the corona by a radiative flow...sorry guy, you are just wrong and the more research that is done, the more wrong the more eivdent that becomes. The search is for the mechanism (work) that moves that energy to the corona...no one but you assumes that it is the result of a simple radiative flow.

Why the fuck don't you answer Toddsterpatriot's question?

According to you, no radiation is possible from cool to warm ( or in this case hot to unbelievably hot). So according to you, no radiation should be coming off the Sun's surface and only the Corona should be visible.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

That's weird! It says "All matter emits and absorbs some EM radiation" Emits AND absorbs....
Your theory says it would emit or absorb.....can't do both at the same time, right?

All matter does...all matter can absorb energy from warmer objects and all matter emits energy which is absorbed by cooler objects...nothing complicated there and it is born out by every observation and measurement ever made.

It also says, "the NET amount of which determines whether this causes a loss or gain in heat"

Ask them to provide you with an observation and measurement of a net energy flow...ask them if it has ever been observed outside of an unobservable, unmeasurable, untestable mathematical mode.

All matter does...all matter can absorb energy from warmer objects and all matter emits energy which is absorbed by cooler objects...

At the same time even.

Ask them to provide you with an observation and measurement of a net energy flow...

Your source disagreed with your claim.....you should ask them why.

 

[SSDD]

Why the fuck don't you answer Toddsterpatriot's question?


According to you, no radiation is possible from cool to warm ( or in this case hot to unbelievably hot). So according to you, no radiation should be coming off the Sun's surface and only the Corona should be visible.

Whats the matter ian, you have the same reading and comprehension problem as toddster. I have never...i repeat NEVER said that it is not possible for radiation to move from cool to warm. Like you, toddster is making up an argument for me and then arguing against that fantasy rather than my actual statements. I have lost count of the number of times I have pointed out to toddster that what I said is that radiation does not move SPONTANEOUSLY from cool to warm...and that you can move as much radiation from cool to warm as you like so long as you are prepared to apply work to get it done.

Tell me, do you have any idea what the word spontaneous means and how it might apply to energy movement? As I have been pointing out to toddster, the whole corona issue is not one where science thinks the second law of thermodynamics is wrong and that energy freely moves from cool to warm, it is an issue of finding what mechanism...what sort of work is being done to make it happen.

 

[SSDD]

What makes you think work at the core could cause energy to flow from the surface to the corona?

That is the conclusion that the best research is leading to...Especialy the work on MHD waves.

I've stated quite explicitly, I don't care why or how the corona gets so hot, only why the Sun's surface violates your claim that "cooler matter simply will not emit toward hotter matter because......2nd Law".

At this point, you are either a deliberate liar, or you are far more stupid than even I though you were. Do you really not know what spontaneous means? Do you really not know how to apply the word to the movement of energy? If not, just say the word and I will try to draw you a picture. How many times must I say that energy can not move SPONTANEOUSLY from cool to warm? What's the matter, if you acknowledge that I keep stating that energy doesn't move spontaneously from cool to warm you will have to give up and admit that you are wrong? You think lying about what I have said is a better option?

I have never, not even once, posted any assumption about the corona.
Because I don't care about the corona. Clear yet?

Yeah, it is clear that all you are interested in at this point is arguing about a claim that you made up and like to assign to me. I have never said that it is not possible for energy to move from cool to warm...I have said that it is not possible for energy to move SPONTANEOUSLY from cool to warm. There is a difference there. Air conditioning would not be possible if it were not possible to move energy from cool to warm...but work must be done to make it happen.

 

[SSDD]

[Q

At the same time even.

Funny...making such a claim when you don't have the first observation, or measurement of it ever happening outside of an unmeasurable, unobservable, untestable mathematical model.

Your source disagreed with your claim.....you should ask them why.

I know why...they are victims of post modern science and tend to believe in models more than reality. It isn't a secret...just look at you. You believe a model when every observation and measurement ever made says that the model is mistaken.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Why the fuck don't you answer Toddsterpatriot's question?


According to you, no radiation is possible from cool to warm ( or in this case hot to unbelievably hot). So according to you, no radiation should be coming off the Sun's surface and only the Corona should be visible.

Whats the matter ian, you have the same reading and comprehension problem as toddster. I have never...i repeat NEVER said that it is not possible for radiation to move from cool to warm. Like you, toddster is making up an argument for me and then arguing against that fantasy rather than my actual statements. I have lost count of the number of times I have pointed out to toddster that what I said is that radiation does not move SPONTANEOUSLY from cool to warm...and that you can move as much radiation from cool to warm as you like so long as you are prepared to apply work to get it done.

Tell me, do you have any idea what the word spontaneous means and how it might apply to energy movement? As I have been pointing out to toddster, the whole corona issue is not one where science thinks the second law of thermodynamics is wrong and that energy freely moves from cool to warm, it is an issue of finding what mechanism...what sort of work is being done to make it happen.

Work done thousands of miles away, in the Sun's core allows radiation to move from the cooler surface to the warmer corona? Is that your final answer?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

[Q

At the same time even.

Funny...making such a claim when you don't have the first observation, or measurement of it ever happening outside of an unmeasurable, unobservable, untestable mathematical model.

Your source disagreed with your claim.....you should ask them why.

I know why...they are victims of post modern science and tend to believe in models more than reality. It isn't a secret...just look at you. You believe a model when every observation and measurement ever made says that the model is mistaken.

I know why...they are victims of post modern science and tend to believe in models more than reality.

Betrayed by your own source. LOL!
Did you ever find your 2 sources that agree matter at equilibrium ceases all radiating?
Or are we supposed to believe your model?

 

[IanC]

Whats the matter ian, you have the same reading and comprehension problem as toddster. I have never...i repeat NEVER said that it is not possible for radiation to move from cool to warm. Like you, toddster is making up an argument for me and then arguing against that fantasy rather than my actual statements. I have lost count of the number of times I have pointed out to toddster that what I said is that radiation does not move SPONTANEOUSLY from cool to warm...and that you can move as much radiation from cool to warm as you like so long as you are prepared to apply work to get it done

So now you are building a new additional set of epicycles to prop up your ridiculous version of thermodynamics. The 'work' done it!

Hahahaha. Soon you will pick out a definition of work that you can misinterpret in a self serving way.

Why do you 'work' so hard to deny that every object radiates according to its temperature all the time?

By the way, the answer to why Sun's surface radiation reaches us is simple. It is the same reason that some of the Earth's surface radiation escapes directly to space. Most of the Sun's radiation is simply transmitted. The ions that make up the Corona are not blackbodies. And they are very rarified. The vast, vast majority of the Sun's radiation simply does not interact.

 

[IanC]

I know why...they are victims of post modern science and tend to believe in models more than reality. It isn't a secret...just look at you. You believe a model when every observation and measurement ever made says that the model is mistaken

It depends on which model you are talking about, of course.

In physics the model for thermodynamics is solid. Any new model would only expand the power to explain, leaving the present model intact. Einstein improved Newtonian physics, he did not prove it wrong for normal terrestrial conditions.

QM and quantum statistics improved classical physics, and produce the same results. But now we have a very good understanding of WHY it happens that way.

Edit- I forgot to ask. Every observation and measurement prove which model wrong? Are the models for general physics wrong because you don't like a climate scientist's model for snowfall in Antarctica?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Whats the matter ian, you have the same reading and comprehension problem as toddster. I have never...i repeat NEVER said that it is not possible for radiation to move from cool to warm. Like you, toddster is making up an argument for me and then arguing against that fantasy rather than my actual statements. I have lost count of the number of times I have pointed out to toddster that what I said is that radiation does not move SPONTANEOUSLY from cool to warm...and that you can move as much radiation from cool to warm as you like so long as you are prepared to apply work to get it done

So now you are building a new additional set of epicycles to prop up your ridiculous version of thermodynamics. The 'work' done it!

Hahahaha. Soon you will pick out a definition of work that you can misinterpret in a self serving way.

Why do you 'work' so hard to deny that every object radiates according to its temperature all the time?

By the way, the answer to why Sun's surface radiation reaches us is simple. It is the same reason that some of the Earth's surface radiation escapes directly to space. Most of the Sun's radiation is simply transmitted. The ions that make up the Corona are not blackbodies. And they are very rarified. The vast, vast majority of the Sun's radiation simply does not interact.

So now you are building a new additional set of epicycles to prop up your ridiculous version of thermodynamics.

All his work to prove that back radiation is impossible. What a joke.