Redemption

[Gunny]

I think I see your point, Echo.

An individual can ask for forgiveness, and someone can forgive them.

An individual does not ask to be redeemed. Only they can redeem themselves.

The external party cannot redeem another individual...they can only pass judgement on that individual.

Almost some points. I accept that and kudos to EZ.

However, what if one cannot forgive one's self? Is there STILL redemption?

Probably not...because someone who cannot forgive themselves judges themselves as a failure, which eliminates the likelihood that they will successfully strive for redemption.

Hmmm ... and if one is forced by circumstance to do what they feel is not right -- the action itself -- and even understands they did what they had to do, but feels guilty nonetheless,

you say there is no redemption?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Gunny asked me to assume that a redeemer exists and that a promise of redemption exists, but what if a person believes he cannot be redeemed. This belief is what I believe to be the "sin" (blockage of man from self attainment or redemption, if you will) that plagues mankind; it is self despair, which all have felt at one time and some are feeling right now. Whether a murderer or a tax cheat or a jay walker or a heavy drinker, we all do things that make us despair to one extent or another. When the individual gives up on himself, s/he is a goner if s/he cannot regain that feeling of hope for redemption.

 

[JW Frogen]

Hmmm ... and if one is forced by circumstance to do what they feel is not right -- the action itself -- and even understands they did what they had to do, but feels guilty nonetheless,

you say there is no redemption?

I often think guilt is a self indulgent emotion; one decides to do something and then flees from the consequence in a personal sense of guilt.

Example, you have sex with another woman.

Should you tell your wife?

That will hurt her, but it will give you a personal sense of virtue, you can appease your guilt.

So you hurt her to make you feel virtuous.

 

[Gunny]

Well, what I get from this thread is Gunny is asking if someone redeems himself, (or herself) but can't forgive himself, then what?


Maybe someone could put an example of that out there.

Spot on. What if ...

You have to take another person's life and you totally don't believe in that. You know you have to, it's for the greater good ... nonetheless you hold yourself accountable for it.

You and botoxilox have hit the nail a couple of times. What if you cannot forgive yourself, regardless what is promised by your religion?

 

[Gunny]

What morality do we hold that is not man-made programming? And is ther really any grace?

Given the men I have known I do not think humanity intelligent enough to provide the grace I have been granted.

God knows I am not.

My wife should not stay with me, I wouldn't, be she loves me.

I have a son that is the moon, what did I do to deserve him other than give my wife a night of howling to the moon?

I drink like a fish yet my liver is fine.

I like to get drunk and fly on motorcycles at speeds that could crack sound.

No death, only one wreckless driving charge.

There is grace in this world.

But grace is like love, if you question it too much you will kill it.

Okay, so you think you are me. You obviously don't have the answer to hellbent to destruction. You're on the path. I want off. Understand?

 

[random3434]

Hmmmmmmmmmm, like killing a man in war?

Or killing an intruder into your house?

I don't even eat dead animals, but if someone was trying to harm my daughter, could I kill them? And would I redeem/forgive myself if I did?

Is that what you mean?

 

[Gunny]

Gunny asked me to assume that a redeemer exists and that a promise of redemption exists, but what if a person believes he cannot be redeemed. This belief is what I believe to be the "sin" (blockage of man from self attainment or redemption, if you will) that plagues mankind; it is self despair, which all have felt at one time and some are feeling right now. Whether a murderer or a tax cheat or a jay walker or a heavy drinker, we all do things that make us despair to one extent or another. When the individual gives up on himself, s/he is a goner if s/he cannot regain that feeling of hope for redemption.

No. Close. The redeemer can be one's self. The redeemer HAS TO BE one's self. The forgiver is another matter.

 

[Luissa]

Well, what I get from this thread is Gunny is asking if someone redeems himself, (or herself) but can't forgive himself, then what?


Maybe someone could put an example of that out there.

Spot on. What if ...

You have to take another person's life and you totally don't believe in that. You know you have to, it's for the greater good ... nonetheless you hold yourself accountable for it.

You and botoxilox have hit the nail a couple of times. What if you cannot forgive yourself, regardless what is promised by your religion?

Not to sound like a non christian liberal but maybe you should forget about the religious part? You think you should feel that you have forgiven yourself because your religion has told you that is how it works and not saying that isn't how it does. I think in some cases you have to throw the rule book out the window and just except what you have done, and realize you can't move on with your life if you keeping holding on to it.

 

[Gunny]

Hmmm ... and if one is forced by circumstance to do what they feel is not right -- the action itself -- and even understands they did what they had to do, but feels guilty nonetheless,

you say there is no redemption?

I often think guilt is a self indulgent emotion; one decides to do something and then flees from the consequence in a personal sense of guilt.

Example, you have sex with another woman.

Should you tell your wife?

That will hurt her, but it will give you a personal sense of virtue, you can appease your guilt.

So you hurt her to make you feel virtuous.

Kinda fucked up that your statement makes sense.

 

[Luissa]

Hmmmmmmmmmm, like killing a man in war?

Or killing an intruder into your house?

I don't even eat dead animals, but if someone was trying to harm my daughter, could I kill them? And would I redeem/forgive myself if I did?

Is that what you mean?

The day my brother's shooter was sentenced, my brother cried because he didn't tell the man he had forgiven him.

 

[JW Frogen]

Spot on. What if ...

You have to take another person's life and you totally don't believe in that. You know you have to, it's for the greater good ... nonetheless you hold yourself accountable for it.

You and botoxilox have hit the nail a couple of times. What if you cannot forgive yourself, regardless what is promised by your religion?

I admire the honesty here Gunny and the dignity you still hold taking a life that had to killed (yes killed) but you still feel accountable to.

You are accountable, but only you Gunny were there, only you can settle that account.

 

[Luissa]

Hmmm ... and if one is forced by circumstance to do what they feel is not right -- the action itself -- and even understands they did what they had to do, but feels guilty nonetheless,

you say there is no redemption?

I often think guilt is a self indulgent emotion; one decides to do something and then flees from the consequence in a personal sense of guilt.

Example, you have sex with another woman.

Should you tell your wife?

That will hurt her, but it will give you a personal sense of virtue, you can appease your guilt.

So you hurt her to make you feel virtuous.

I have heard the same thing before, you are only making yourself feel better by telling your wife. I don't know I agree with it but it has some truth.

 

[Gunny]

Hmmmmmmmmmm, like killing a man in war?

Or killing an intruder into your house?

I don't even eat dead animals, but if someone was trying to harm my daughter, could I kill them? And would I redeem/forgive myself if I did?

Is that what you mean?

We will use war as an example here. However, an intruder threating your life or the lives of your loved ones is the same, IMO. In the end you still take a human life. You've just made someone everything they will ever be.

And what if your government merc's you out for gold? You didn't know it at the time, but you find out later?

Do you hate your government for duping you? Do you hate yourself for being duped? Is there forgiveness for killing for gold?

 

[Gunny]

Spot on. What if ...

You have to take another person's life and you totally don't believe in that. You know you have to, it's for the greater good ... nonetheless you hold yourself accountable for it.

You and botoxilox have hit the nail a couple of times. What if you cannot forgive yourself, regardless what is promised by your religion?

I admire the honesty here Gunny and the dignity you still hold taking a life that had to killed (yes killed) but you still feel accountable to.

You are accountable, but only you Gunny were there, only you can settle that account.

Yeah, I know.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Gunny, murder or wrongful death is redeemable. If we believe in a life eternal, then the act, although grevious, is not damnable if truly repented. If you think you killed wrongly, then I feel strongly for your inner illness. But I do believe such is redeemable.

 

[Foxfyre]

explain ....

oh, and flamers fuck off. I'll delete your posts. Fair warning.

You would have to put the word redemption into a specific context to get a clear definition.

From the free online dictionary:

re•demp•tion (r-dmpshn)
n.
1. The act of redeeming or the condition of having been redeemed.
2. Recovery of something pawned or mortgaged.
3. The payment of an obligation, as a government's payment of the value of its bonds.
4. Deliverance upon payment of ransom; rescue.
5. Christianity Salvation from sin through Jesus's sacrifice.

To the Atheist, redemption is probably most often a rescue or restoration of respect or honor.

To the Jew, redemption is most often seen as fulfillment of God's covenant with His chosen people in the past, present, or future.

To the Christian, redemption is most often seen as God's undeserved grace and assurance of eternal life. Which is what it means to me.

I don't intend to be generic or flippant, but honestly, if you don't give us an idea of what you're really fishing for here, it is impossible to answer the question any differently.

 

[Gunny]

explain ....

oh, and flamers fuck off. I'll delete your posts. Fair warning.

You would have to put the word redemption into a specific context to get a clear definition.

From the free online dictionary:

re•demp•tion (r-dmpshn)
n.
1. The act of redeeming or the condition of having been redeemed.
2. Recovery of something pawned or mortgaged.
3. The payment of an obligation, as a government's payment of the value of its bonds.
4. Deliverance upon payment of ransom; rescue.
5. Christianity Salvation from sin through Jesus's sacrifice.

To the Atheist, redemption is probably most often a rescue or restoration of respect or honor.

To the Jew, redemption is most often seen as fulfillment of God's covenant with His chosen people in the past, present, or future.

To the Christian, redemption is most often seen as God's undeserved grace and assurance of eternal life. Which is in part what it means to me.

I'm looking for an answer that 20 fucking years of therapy and do-good-sim can't give me. Nor can your generic BS responses.

Got anymore brilliant questions?

 

[Luissa]

explain ....

oh, and flamers fuck off. I'll delete your posts. Fair warning.

You would have to put the word redemption into a specific context to get a clear definition.

From the free online dictionary:

re•demp•tion (r-dmpshn)
n.
1. The act of redeeming or the condition of having been redeemed.
2. Recovery of something pawned or mortgaged.
3. The payment of an obligation, as a government's payment of the value of its bonds.
4. Deliverance upon payment of ransom; rescue.
5. Christianity Salvation from sin through Jesus's sacrifice.

To the Atheist, redemption is probably most often a rescue or restoration of respect or honor.

To the Jew, redemption is most often seen as fulfillment of God's covenant with His chosen people in the past, present, or future.

To the Christian, redemption is most often seen as God's undeserved grace and assurance of eternal life. Which is in part what it means to me.

I'm looking for an answer that 20 fucking years of therapy and do-good-sim can't give me. Nor can your generic BS responses.

Got anymore brilliant questions?

maybe instead of asking other people the question, you should ask yourself?

 

[Gunny]

Gunny, murder or wrongful death is redeemable. If we believe in a life eternal, then the act, although grevious, is not damnable if truly repented. If you think you killed wrongly, then I feel strongly for your inner illness. But I do believe such is redeemable.

I'm not talking murder. There is a distinction between murder and killing. I could never commit murder. I don't even know about "wrongful death".

I'm talking about taking another human being's life, regardless the circumstances.

 

[Modbert]

Redemption is just one of those things we use to make ourselves feel better and to move on past events to be honest. You can't change the past, however you can change tomorrow.

We all have to remember, a strong man doesn't read his future, he makes his own. Meanwhile, redemption does come in many forms. But as Gunny I do believe previously stated, it has to come truly from within. The victim or other people involved in the matter are a entirely different matter. Whether they forgive you or "redeem" you or not is irrelevant or not until you have come to peace with yourself.