Remember Whining About Cops Taking A Crazy Vet's Guns?

[RetiredGySgt]

You clearly have no clue what the words "due process" even mean. If the medical authorities and the police are following THE LAW, then due process is being observed. If THE LAW directs them to confiscate the weapons of a person who they consider an imminent threat to themselves or others, then due process has been observed.

A doctor can start the process, only a court, under our Constitution, can complete it. Even for competency you have a right to face your accusers, have access to the evidence used against you, cross examine witnesses and present defense.

Don't you understand that you agree that you are mentally incompetent when you collect PTSS disability?

No you do not. If the board felt he was a threat to self or others they must report that and appropriate LEGAL action taken. Just receiving disability does not qualify.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

And I have already pointed out to you in the past, the vets don't lose any of the bolded.

A doctor alters the VA that a vet is mentally unstable
The VA alerts the vet of the doctors findings
The vet has 30 days to either agree with the findings or challenge
If the vet challenges he presents his evidence to an arbitrator and the VA presents theirs
If arbitrator finds against the vet, he can appeal and go before a judge to have the case heard.

By agreeing to collect PTSS disability benefits the Vet agrees that he/she is mentally disabled. There is no appeal because the Vet agrees to the disability.

Very true.


I was referring only to vets who may not agree.

You both are wrong, on so many levels it astounds the mind.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

However, it does vindicate removing weapons from people who DO have a history or who make threats against themselves or others. And the people who whine about such instances are mentally retarded.

If you seriously think this vindicates anything you're the retarded one. You got a guy that went nuts with no apparent previous history of problems. It was a law enforcement matter with no political bearing at all. And trying to politicize a tragedy is a very poor reflection on YOU.

Got anything that says he was mentally stable?

Strange thing, I don't have to prove he was mentally stable because I am not trying to prove a point. You have to prove that the government knew he was insane and that he still had legal access to guns in order to prove yours.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Why can we call one of our own crazy? Because we've actually served in the military and have seen a crazy idiot or two if we've served long enough.

I've seen guys do stupid shit, and I've seen some of them do downright insane things, and yeah.....................I've even said they were batshit crazy if they were. One such example are the Marines who were stationed at Norfolk in the early 80's who ended up shooting each other because they were doing quick draw gunfighting with each other WITH LOADED FUCKING WEAPONS WHILE THEY WERE BORED EARLY IN THE MORNING ON GATE GUARD DUTY.

Calling one of your own crazy isn't a bad thing. It's actually a recognition of the fact that the Armed Forces are a small cross section of the larger U.S., and even though we try to catch all of them with the various screenings we do, some of them do manage to slip through.

And....................part of being a good shipmate is recognizing when someone is losing it and referring them to someone before they hurt themselves or others. I've seen guys try to commit suicide after a Dear John letter, and even seen a guy go nuts from being restricted to the ship, and he decided that doing a swan dive off of the helo tower was a good thing, because he was going to swim to shore to get a beer.

A kick ass bennie for a biker/sailor Vet would be that Government check every month. Check in your self respect for a couple of government bucks and nobody will be the wiser until you try to buy a gun.

You're right..................one of the kick ass bennies is that government check every month. Another one is being able to go on base and buy things tax free.

But........................that's because I served over 20 years and earned a full retirement.

Oh...............btw.....................I am fully eligible to own a weapon.

So am I and I am rated 70 percent due to my mental conditions. I can still legally buy weapons and own 2. You have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It's a given that a person who is so mentally traumatized to the point that he/she is collecting disability ....is not freaking mentally stable.

Exactly. The military doesn't give you disability payments unless you've already been fully screened medically, and they determine that you have enough of a problem that it qualifies for a payment.

Trust me.................medical boards ain't no joke, and they are very thorough.

You can get disability payment for physical injuries.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

And I have already pointed out to you in the past, the vets don't lose any of the bolded.

A doctor alters the VA that a vet is mentally unstable
The VA alerts the vet of the doctors findings
The vet has 30 days to either agree with the findings or challenge
If the vet challenges he presents his evidence to an arbitrator and the VA presents theirs
If arbitrator finds against the vet, he can appeal and go before a judge to have the case heard.

So we’re all in agreement: authorities taking possession of a firearm from a person suspected of being mentally ill does not constitute ‘confiscation.’ The owner of the firearm has the right to due process, where he’s allowed to challenge the merits of the pending taking.

When a person agrees that a diagnosis of mental instability is so acute that it requires a federal disability check every month there is no need for a doctor's alert. If the statutes require a patient who suffers from PTSS to surrender his/her firearms it's OK but certainly we should protect the public and prevent a person who is on a mental related disability pension from "legally" purchasing a firearm.

Wrong the criteria is threat to self or others. I see a therapist every week and a shrink every 3 months. They ask all the time. Until I tell them otherwise or they suspect otherwise I am legally allowed to buy and possess firearms.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You are crazy if you say you are crazy. If the federal government is convinced that you are crazy to the point that they are willing to compensate you for their responsibility for your craziness it's a done deal. You are officially diagnosed as crazy. Should crazy people be allowed to purchase firearms?

Get a clue dumb ass.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

And I have already pointed out to you in the past, the vets don't lose any of the bolded.

A doctor alters the VA that a vet is mentally unstable
The VA alerts the vet of the doctors findings
The vet has 30 days to either agree with the findings or challenge
If the vet challenges he presents his evidence to an arbitrator and the VA presents theirs
If arbitrator finds against the vet, he can appeal and go before a judge to have the case heard.

So we’re all in agreement: authorities taking possession of a firearm from a person suspected of being mentally ill does not constitute ‘confiscation.’ The owner of the firearm has the right to due process, where he’s allowed to challenge the merits of the pending taking.

When a person agrees that a diagnosis of mental instability is so acute that it requires a federal disability check every month there is no need for a doctor's alert. If the statutes require a patient who suffers from PTSS to surrender his/her firearms it's OK but certainly we should protect the public and prevent a person who is on a mental related disability pension from "legally" purchasing a firearm.

There are people who get federal disability for PTSD who are actually police officers.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You are crazy if you say you are crazy. If the federal government is convinced that you are crazy to the point that they are willing to compensate you for their responsibility for your craziness it's a done deal. You are officially diagnosed as crazy. Should crazy people be allowed to purchase firearms?

Wouldn't that depend on the circumstances?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You are crazy if you say you are crazy. If the federal government is convinced that you are crazy to the point that they are willing to compensate you for their responsibility for your craziness it's a done deal. You are officially diagnosed as crazy. Should crazy people be allowed to purchase firearms?

You just continue to prove your ignorance. Do you know a person could recieve a 10% disability for PTSD and not even get a freaking check. A simple diagnosis of PTSD is no more a determination of carzy than a mild case of depression.

Don't tell me a Veteran would agree to a mental disability discharge and not even get a check? Maybe it's a quick discharge agreement to get out of harms way. It's one more reason to prevent a PTSS patients from purchasing a firearm until they can convince the V.A. that they are no longer suicidal/clinically depressed.

Some veterans don't care about the money.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It's not merely about PTSD. Not all vets with PTSD are listed as mentally unstable by the VA. And not all vets who are on the mentally unstable list have PTSD.

This is about a special listing where the VA finds you too mentally unstable to be trusted with your own funds. If you are on that list, you are also blacklisted from buying a firearm.

All Vets with PTSD are mentally unstable. That's the freaking point of the diagnosis. Maybe they think they think the diagnosis will lead to some government compensation but somebody should inform them that a diagnosis of PTSD will haunt them for the rest of their lives.

Are you really this stupid?

 

[ABikerSailor]

It's a given that a person who is so mentally traumatized to the point that he/she is collecting disability ....is not freaking mentally stable.

Exactly. The military doesn't give you disability payments unless you've already been fully screened medically, and they determine that you have enough of a problem that it qualifies for a payment.Toontown evacuated after explosion at Disneyland, police say - latimes.com

Trust me.................medical boards ain't no joke, and they are very thorough.

You can get disability payment for physical injuries.

You're right...................you CAN get a disabilitay payment for physical injuries.

You can also get one for being shell shocked (or.................as they say now.........PTSD)...

Pay those that deserve it.

 

[NoNukes]

Only a court of law should have the ability to take someone's rights, period, end of story. Ever heard of due process?

So.....................you're cool with a person being diagnosed by a bona fide psychologist, but we've gotta wait until they go off and kill someone and get convicted as a felon before they aren't allowed to have guns?

Why are you in support of crazy people being allowed to have weapons, especially when they do stuff like this?

Yes, you can be batshit crazy but retain your guns until due process is achieved in a courtroom. You can also become a traitor, move to an enemy country, fight against the United States, but you cannot be retaliated against without due process.

 

[TemplarKormac]

Only a court of law should have the ability to take someone's rights, period, end of story. Ever heard of due process?

So.....................you're cool with a person being diagnosed by a bona fide psychologist, but we've gotta wait until they go off and kill someone and get convicted as a felon before they aren't allowed to have guns?

Why are you in support of crazy people being allowed to have weapons, especially when they do stuff like this?

Yes, you can be batshit crazy but retain your guns until due process is achieved in a courtroom. You can also become a traitor, move to an enemy country, fight against the United States, but you cannot be retaliated against without due process.

Hold it. That's not entirely accurate. Holder signed off on four drone strikes on American citizens without giving them their due process rights. The Fourteenth Amendment? Yeah, who needs it when you have men in suits and UAVs with missile racks?

 

[NoNukes]

So.....................you're cool with a person being diagnosed by a bona fide psychologist, but we've gotta wait until they go off and kill someone and get convicted as a felon before they aren't allowed to have guns?

Why are you in support of crazy people being allowed to have weapons, especially when they do stuff like this?

Yes, you can be batshit crazy but retain your guns until due process is achieved in a courtroom. You can also become a traitor, move to an enemy country, fight against the United States, but you cannot be retaliated against without due process.

Hold it. That's not entirely accurate. Holder signed off on four drone strikes on American citizens without giving them their due process rights. The Fourteenth Amendment? Yeah, who needs it when you have men in suits and UAVs with missile racks?

There was obviously evidence against these people. Do you think that citizens who become enemy combatants against the United States still retain their rights?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Yes, you can be batshit crazy but retain your guns until due process is achieved in a courtroom. You can also become a traitor, move to an enemy country, fight against the United States, but you cannot be retaliated against without due process.

Hold it. That's not entirely accurate. Holder signed off on four drone strikes on American citizens without giving them their due process rights. The Fourteenth Amendment? Yeah, who needs it when you have men in suits and UAVs with missile racks?

There was obviously evidence against these people. Do you think that citizens who become enemy combatants against the United States still retain their rights?

Yeah, they do. Even those who commit treason should get their day in court. Regardless of evidence. We can't have such an arbitrary system of law and punishment, now can we?

 

[NoNukes]

Hold it. That's not entirely accurate. Holder signed off on four drone strikes on American citizens without giving them their due process rights. The Fourteenth Amendment? Yeah, who needs it when you have men in suits and UAVs with missile racks?

There was obviously evidence against these people. Do you think that citizens who become enemy combatants against the United States still retain their rights?

Yeah, they do. Even those who commit treason should get their day in court. Regardless of evidence. We can't have such an arbitrary system of law and punishment, now can we?

If you become an enemy combatant fighting against the United States, you just that and know the consequences.

 

[TemplarKormac]

There was obviously evidence against these people. Do you think that citizens who become enemy combatants against the United States still retain their rights?

Yeah, they do. Even those who commit treason should get their day in court. Regardless of evidence. We can't have such an arbitrary system of law and punishment, now can we?

If you become an enemy combatant fighting against the United States, you just that and know the consequences.

You display your ignorance of the law. You don't assume guilt, you prove it. I hate terrorists just as much as you, but if they are American citizens even only in title, they still deserve their due process rights.

 

[NoNukes]

Yeah, they do. Even those who commit treason should get their day in court. Regardless of evidence. We can't have such an arbitrary system of law and punishment, now can we?

If you become an enemy combatant fighting against the United States, you just that and know the consequences.

You display your ignorance of the law. You don't assume guilt, you prove it. I hate terrorists just as much as you, but if they are American citizens even only in title, they still deserve their due process rights.

So, you think that enemy combatants should be left to kill Americans if they have not been convicted in a court of law?

 

[TemplarKormac]

If you become an enemy combatant fighting against the United States, you just that and know the consequences.

You display your ignorance of the law. You don't assume guilt, you prove it. I hate terrorists just as much as you, but if they are American citizens even only in title, they still deserve their due process rights.

So, you think that enemy combatants should be left to kill Americans if they have not been convicted in a court of law?

What? No. I want them to be captured and brought to justice! I never said anything of the sort! What I said was you don't deny an American his day in court, no matter how heinous his crime might be. Our justice system is a system of discovery, not a system of summary punishment. You don't assume guilt until you prove it. You don't maintain innocence, you defend it. You have faith in the system that it will dole out a fitting punishment.

Face the facts, the 14th Amendment applies to any and all American citizens.