Romney's Bain Lie

[Dick Tuck]

The point you're missing is that the statutory rate is only charged against corporate profit. Yet corporations are still moving production and services off-shore, to third world shitholes, where they pay higher effective tax rates, and deduct them against their US taxes. Hell, there's even tax incentives for moving some jobs off-shore.

Thus, the statutory tax rate argument is bullshit, as long as corporations are willing to screw America for near slave labor.

Don't you think that the percentage of effective corporate tax, dropping from near 6% of GDP under Ike, to near 1% today, is a joke?

You aren't following. I'm not saying the effective tax rate is high. I am saying that because the statutory rate is high, there is incentive to move production offshore. If we lower statutory corporate taxes, we reduce the incentive for companies to lower their effective tax rates by shifting production. Of course, taxes aren't the only cost, but they are one we can influence. So lower the corporate tax rate to 15% and eliminate the loopholes. Obama has proposed lowering corporate taxes for this very reason, though to something like 27%.

Again, the issue is their effective federal rate. When they shift jobs to low wage, third world shitholes, their profit increases. They are taxed, at the federal level, on profit. Hence, their effective tax rate should increase by screwing America. Yet it doesn't. Why is that?

Perhaps it's because countries like Vietnam and China don't have all of those tax credits that we do, but companies are willing to move operations there because they provide a cheap, near slave wage market, so it doesn't matter that they pay a bit more in tax to those countries, while they write those same taxes off here?

Nope. It's a bullshit argument that American corporate tax, effective rates are high. The reality is the corporations like paying peanuts for wages, and could give a rat's ass about America.

When companies shift production abroad, their tax rate falls. The math is simple. If a company earns $200 in the US, it will pay $70 in taxes. If it shifts half of it's production to a tax free jurisdiction, all else being equal, it will then pay $35 in taxes, cutting it's effective tax rate from 35% to 17.5%. Lowering the corporate tax rate reduces the incentive to shift production abroad. All else being equal, if the US corporate tax rate in the example was 17.5%, there would be no incentive to shift production offshore.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It matters when they take advantage of a system gamed to benefit the wealthy, especially when bragging to be a "job creator." It also matters if they claim they had nothing to do with a company that had them on the payroll.

Why shouldn't he take advantage of tax breaks? Most people do. Saying he shouldn't take advantage of tax breaks that is readily available to him is about as nonsensical as conservatives saying that if liberals want to raise taxes, they should voluntarily send money to the Treasury and not force everyone to pay. Same coin, different sides.

You realize that his tax return is irrelevant to determining his involvement in Bain, right? He would continue to receive partnership distributions from carried interest from past funds and profits from the management company whether or not he was actively involved. This was investigated when he ran for governor in MA. This whole "Was he running Bain" garbage reminds me of the birfers demanding to see Obama's birth certificate years after it was certified.

If it doesn't matter, why is Mitt reluctant to release his tax returns?

From what I understand, he wasn't just getting distributions, he was being paid a salary of $100,000 a year. While he "wasn't there" doing anything to earn a salary.

When he ran for governor is when he used his Bain tenure as proof that he really "was there" in MA and therefore qualified to run for governor.

Why would a guy who is being targeted because he is rich and white not want to release his tax returns so that his business associates could get a share of the same hassle?



I don't know about anyone else, but it seems to me the question sort of answers itself.

 

[Dick Tuck]

Major Romney Donor Being Investigated For Suspicious Activities

The Sands Casinos have long been associated with mob control. I have a heard time believing that a few pencil necks could drive them completely out.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Romney was listed as the CEO but that doesn't mean he was actively involved. That may sound weird to people, but in financial industry general partnerships, that's not uncommon. Founders often receive compensation long after they've either left or are at the firm but aren't doing much productive. In limited liability corporations, people receive stock they hold on to and can sell at later times. In general partnerships in the financial industry, they usually don't.

My guess why he is reluctant to release his tax returns is because it will show that he used offshore tax structures to avoid - legally - paying taxes, maybe some that the IRS has since ruled against. The IRS used to allow carried interest held offshore to be deferred until brought onshore. They disallowed that in the mid-OOs. He probably also had some tax swaps which deferred paying taxes which he no longer uses. All that stuff used to be common.

Well, gee, so you support a guy who doesn't want to let the little people know how he gamed the system to not pay his fair share while they struggle to make ends meet.

This is the guy you support, someone who isn't being honest with us, pretty much.

(Waiting for Toro's usual whine about Mormons and hate.)

He pays more in taxes than you make, how is that not a fair share?

 

[Ravi]

First, he effectively said he didn't care when he claimed he had nothing to do with Bain while he "wasn't there." I say bullshit, he owned the company 100%.

Second, how could it be a GP if Mitten was the sole stock holder?

I can't comment on what he said or it's context but a GP is a legal entity. It doesn't imply broad ownership. This structure is common amongst private equity firms, hedge funds and law firms. It's not uncommon for there to be a sole owner. In my experience, that's probably the case a significant amount of time. Most of the time, there will only be one, two or three owners.

It seemed your response was in reference to a GP. I'd always thought a GP implied more than one owner. According to the filings, Mitt owned 100% of the stock until his retroactive retirement....basically, through 2002.

 

[Lakhota]

Bob Schieffer Dismayed At Appearance In Romney Attack Ad (VIDEO)

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If it doesn't matter, why is Mitt reluctant to release his tax returns?

From what I understand, he wasn't just getting distributions, he was being paid a salary of $100,000 a year. While he "wasn't there" doing anything to earn a salary.

When he ran for governor is when he used his Bain tenure as proof that he really "was there" in MA and therefore qualified to run for governor.

Romney was listed as the CEO but that doesn't mean he was actively involved. That may sound weird to people, but in financial industry general partnerships, that's not uncommon. Founders often receive compensation long after they've either left or are at the firm but aren't doing much productive. In limited liability corporations, people receive stock they hold on to and can sell at later times. In general partnerships in the financial industry, they usually don't.

My guess why he is reluctant to release his tax returns is because it will show that he used offshore tax structures to avoid - legally - paying taxes, maybe some that the IRS has since ruled against. The IRS used to allow carried interest held offshore to be deferred until brought onshore. They disallowed that in the mid-OOs. He probably also had some tax swaps which deferred paying taxes which he no longer uses. All that stuff used to be common.

Dude. You don't own 100% of a company and then just go off and ignore it and not be concerned with the direction it takes or the profits it makes. You just don't.

Strangely enough, that wasn't his intention. The Olympics were a huge mess, which he knew, but it turned out to be a bigger mess than he was told. Instead of whining about inheriting a mess from the guy that was there before him he rolled up his sleeves and got busy doing what needed to be done. This kept him a lot busier than he had expected, so he let things that were less time critical than the Olympics run themselves without having to micromanage everything. This led to a basic change of strategy at Bain as the management team changed focus from venture capital to rebuilding failed companies. When he was done with the Olympics he looked at the opportunities and decided he wanted to do other things than go back to Bain.

I envy that he has the resources to do that kind of thing when I don't, but I am not going to sit around and plot ways to take it away from him. That is why I am not a Democrat, I prefer to try and make a world where everyone can do what rich people have the freedom to instead of making a world where no one can do it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Mitt Romney handed 23 years of tax returns over to the McCain campaign when they vetted him for a spot on that ticket.

And McCain is not using those tax returns to demonize him.

 

[Ravi]

Romney was listed as the CEO but that doesn't mean he was actively involved. That may sound weird to people, but in financial industry general partnerships, that's not uncommon. Founders often receive compensation long after they've either left or are at the firm but aren't doing much productive. In limited liability corporations, people receive stock they hold on to and can sell at later times. In general partnerships in the financial industry, they usually don't.

My guess why he is reluctant to release his tax returns is because it will show that he used offshore tax structures to avoid - legally - paying taxes, maybe some that the IRS has since ruled against. The IRS used to allow carried interest held offshore to be deferred until brought onshore. They disallowed that in the mid-OOs. He probably also had some tax swaps which deferred paying taxes which he no longer uses. All that stuff used to be common.

Dude. You don't own 100% of a company and then just go off and ignore it and not be concerned with the direction it takes or the profits it makes. You just don't.

Strangely enough, that wasn't his intention. The Olympics were a huge mess, which he knew, but it turned out to be a bigger mess than he was told. Instead of whining about inheriting a mess from the guy that was there before him he rolled up his sleeves and got busy doing what needed to be done. This kept him a lot busier than he had expected, so he let things that were less time critical than the Olympics run themselves without having to micromanage everything. This led to a basic change of strategy at Bain as the management team changed focus from venture capital to rebuilding failed companies. When he was done with the Olympics he looked at the opportunities and decided he wanted to do other things than go back to Bain.

I envy that he has the resources to do that kind of thing when I don't, but I am not going to sit around and plot ways to take it away from him. That is why I am not a Democrat, I prefer to try and make a world where everyone can do what rich people have the freedom to instead of making a world where no one can do it.

Thank you for that fairy tale.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

[

1.) The 13.9% rate is on investment income, not wages, and you most certainly CAN hire accountants if you like. To change that we need to change the tax law. And you can certainly park your money in the Cayman Islands, there is nothing stopping you or anyone else from doing just that.

2.) I agree, everyone should pay the same percentage across the board. We could just throw out the 70K pages of tax code and charge EVERYBODY 15%, no deductions, no loopholes. You game?

3.) If he was hiding it Joe, NOBODY would know about it. He disclosed what was required to the FEC, he's filed his taxes and paid what the law requires. I don't think he can help sounding like a rich douchebag, but I don't think that's illegal, YET...

1) Income is income and it should all be taxed at the same rate. the fact that he can hire accountants is gaming the system in a way I can't, because the accountant would cost me more than any savings he could find. That's kind of the point. He's gaming the system. Period.

2) No, everyone should pay THEIR FAIR SHARE. None of his "flat tax" bullshit. We had our greatest prosperity when the Rich paid through the nose for the privilage of being rich. They did okay, and so did the rest of us. We had good roads, good schools, and we expanded economically.

3) No, being a rich douchebag isn't illegal, yet. For the happy day when it is.

Let me see if I understand your position.

You work most of your life to provide a home for your family, you pay off your mortgage, do some needed maintenance, and throw in a few improvements over the years. When you die the house you bought for $50,000 is appraised at $1.5 million because you live in LA. You think your kids should be taxed 39% on the $1,450,000 dollar income that they just got.

Is that an honest assessment of your position, or did you somehow manage to think that it would never matter to you if rich people pay more in taxes.

 

[Lakhota]

Romney ‘Throwing Stones From His Big Glass House’ On Crony Capitalism | TPM2012

Romney: Teresa Heinz Kerry Didn’t Release Tax Returns, Either! | TPM2012

Romney Camp: Obama Pays Off Big Donors; Reporter: Who Are Romney’s Big Donors? | TPM2012

Conservative Pundits: Romney Won’t Release Tax Returns Because He’s Hiding Something | TPM2012

 

[Quantum Windbag]

zzzzz zzzzzzzzzz

Now don't you just wish the American public was reacting that way? Demonstrating that Romney was part of the problem in the movement of American Manufacturing offshore is resonating with a great many Americans of all political views.

The American public is reacting that way.

 

[ConservaDerrps]

Mitt Romney handed 23 years of tax returns over to the McCain campaign when they vetted him for a spot on that ticket.

And McCain is not using those tax returns to demonize him.

Because McCain, no matter how hard he rants to the contrary, is a Party man. He had to become one before he would be given the nomination in 2008. But all we know is he saw 23 years' worth of tax returns and picked Sarah "Notes on Hand" Palin. Hmm.

 

[ConzHateUSA]

[

1.) The 13.9% rate is on investment income, not wages, and you most certainly CAN hire accountants if you like. To change that we need to change the tax law. And you can certainly park your money in the Cayman Islands, there is nothing stopping you or anyone else from doing just that.

2.) I agree, everyone should pay the same percentage across the board. We could just throw out the 70K pages of tax code and charge EVERYBODY 15%, no deductions, no loopholes. You game?

3.) If he was hiding it Joe, NOBODY would know about it. He disclosed what was required to the FEC, he's filed his taxes and paid what the law requires. I don't think he can help sounding like a rich douchebag, but I don't think that's illegal, YET...

1) Income is income and it should all be taxed at the same rate. the fact that he can hire accountants is gaming the system in a way I can't, because the accountant would cost me more than any savings he could find. That's kind of the point. He's gaming the system. Period.

2) No, everyone should pay THEIR FAIR SHARE. None of his "flat tax" bullshit. We had our greatest prosperity when the Rich paid through the nose for the privilage of being rich. They did okay, and so did the rest of us. We had good roads, good schools, and we expanded economically.

3) No, being a rich douchebag isn't illegal, yet. For the happy day when it is.

Let me see if I understand your position.

You work most of your life to provide a home for your family, you pay off your mortgage, do some needed maintenance, and throw in a few improvements over the years. When you die the house you bought for $50,000 is appraise at $1.5 million because you live in LA. You think your kids should be taxed 39% on the $1,450,000 dollar income that they just got.

Is that an honest assessment of your position, or did you somehow manage to think that it would never matter to you if rich people pay more in taxes.

huh? who is paying ANY inheritance tax on that?

who?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Dude. You don't own 100% of a company and then just go off and ignore it and not be concerned with the direction it takes or the profits it makes. You just don't.

That is true. Since Romney was working another job 12 hours a day, 6 days a week in another state FOR FREE, he turned the day to day operation over to a management team. That is what Romney did.

Romney could clear this all up simply by releasing his tax records and showing that he received no salary from Bain during those years.

Think how embarassed Obama would be

If he did a bunch of these nuts would simply insist that he is hiding the income.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Mitt Romney handed 23 years of tax returns over to the McCain campaign when they vetted him for a spot on that ticket.

Why is Mitt Romney willing to disclose more information to people looking to hire him to be vice president than he is people looking to hire him to be president?

Better question, why should he. Did you demand that Obama and McCain release a decade of tax returns in 2008?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Mitt Romney Talks Bain with ABC, CBS, CNN, FOX and NBC - YouTube

No role whatsoever.

SEC should be asking questions.

...in managing Bain capital.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Mitt Romney handed 23 years of tax returns over to the McCain campaign when they vetted him for a spot on that ticket.

And McCain didn't pick him. Wonder why.

Because he liked Palin, and he is probably senile.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

holy shit, imagine what would happen if president romney were called to safe the rio olympics.

Obama would run around making speeches about the mess the other guy left, play golf, and start working on the next Olympics.

 

[Uncensored2008]

if "Bainthers" is not registered, then you are breaking the LAW.

Oh good lord, will I be marched off to the Gulags by you Bainthers®? I'm living in constant fear that Obama will dissapear me in the middle of the night......