Roosevelt, Stalin and The Elusive "Second Front"

[Camp]

I think I've already made my point.

Not one example of anything I've posted that isn't the truth.

That identifies you as a moron who specializes in "I hate you" posts.

Now...get back into your sewer.

Oh Gawd, that means I'll have to read and sort through your garbage. Okay, I'll do it.

I'll do it as soon as I'm finished with my errands. Right now I've got places to go and people to see!

Your jog around the psycho-path?



What's really telling is that you wrote "Sounds like you got your ass handed to you on one thread, and now need it handed to you on this thread"....

....and now you admit you didn't read it at all.

That pretty much entitles you to the appellation "lying imbecile."
Fight it out with Jakal for the title.

Nah, I knew this thread was bullshit just by looking at the title alone. However, that knowledge was reinforced when I got to the part saying FDR was a totalitarian, then went on to compare him to Hitler and Mussolini.

That's because you are a fool.

Pick up a copy of
Three New Deals: Reflections on Roosevelt's America, Mussolini's Italy, and Hitler's Germany, 1933-1939
Nov 27, 2007
by Wolfgang Schivelbusch



....if you ever decide to educate yourself.


I'm never wrong......learn that.

You are such a stupid person. If a person wants to know why FDR supported Stalin one of the first series of history books they would need to read would be works by Wolfgang Shivelbusch.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Harry White's Creed, which PC hates

"I believe in freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of the press, freedom of criticism...

Such pretty words.

Let's look at White's deeds: Pearl Harbor 2.0 TIME.com

He betrayed his country to serve one of history's worst dictators.

So glad you brought up Operation Snow.....it gives an indication of how wide and deep Soviet infiltration was....

In 1995,Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed "Operation Snow,"the plan to manipulate Japan and America into war.

a.In "Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History," Leona Schecter and Jerrold Schecter make a very strong case forPearl Harbor being the most complex and successful KGB operation,designed to avert a Japanese attack on the USSR, and to force the United States to fight a two-front war, and be unable to stop Stalin from control of at least half of Europe. In 1995, former Kremlin agent Vitaly Pavlov revealed his role in this "Operation Snow."

b. Pavlov "was sent to the United States seven months before the Japanese attacked Pearl Harborto meet with Harry Dexter White, then director of Monetary Research for the Treasury.
Did "Snow" mean "White"? Yes,
Harry Dexter White had been a Soviet "asset" since the early 1930s, providing information to Whittaker Chambers, a courier for the communist underground.

By 1941 White was a top aide and adviser to Henry Morgenthau, Jr., Secretary of the Treasury. Pavlov wrote that the Soviets feared a Japanese attack from the east, and his mission was to discuss with White what could be done to keep the Japanese from joining forces with the Germans."
Sacred Secrets: How Soviet Intelligence Operations Changed American History

 

[PoliticalChic]

" Fascism did not acquire an evil name in Washington
until Hitler became a menace to·the Soviet Union."

I've been waiting for you to convince me as you said you would without result.

How about proving the above quote?

Post #57 proved it.

 

[Ravi]

" Fascism did not acquire an evil name in Washington
until Hitler became a menace to·the Soviet Union."

I've been waiting for you to convince me as you said you would without result.

How about proving the above quote?

Post #57 proved it.

No, it just contained quotes from people that wished and hoped that fascism was supported by the USA.

Do you believe the crap terrorists say as well when it suits your agenda?

Try again.

 

[PoliticalChic]

Now back to that "Elusive Second Front"....



6. So.....did it really matter where the 'second front' is located?
Stalin was adamant about it forming via the northwestern edge of the continent rather than abide by Churchill's wish, Italy.


a. Consider the analysis of NYTimes Russia expert, Edwin James:
" ALLIED FRONT IN ITALY NOT SO FAR FROM REICH; In Other Words, It Is Just as Close to Germany From Any Peninsula Point As It Is From Dnieper THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE"
By EDWIN L. JAMES
September 12, 1943
Pay Articles from September 1943 Part 4 - Site Map - The New York Times

So....why did Stalin insist on the Allies opening the front at Normandy rather than the bases already conquered in Italy?

Here's why: he wanted the Red Army to cut Europe in half , as he would be able to occupy same.

And Roosevelt agreed with him....Roosevelt wanted to give all of Eastern Europe over to this homicidal maniac who slaughtered and oppressed millions!



b.Don't believe that that was the reason for Stalin's insistence on the "second front" being as far west as possible?

"Any time or any place where German forces are engaged by the American and the British represents good luck for Stalin. That is true because Hitler's strength is taxed just as much by fighting to the south as it would be fighting to the west."
Diana West, "American Betrayal," p. 266.
How can one argue with that?

Well.....only if "taxing Hitler's strength" wasn't the aim.....gaining the territory of central Europe for the Red Army was.



c. 'To withdraw from the European continent [Italy] to re-invade the European continent was simply crazy.'
Dunn, "Caught Between Roosevelt and Stalin," p.195-196
Yet, Roosevelt sided with Stalin over Churchill, and over General Mark Clark, commander of the 5th US Army, in Italy.
Why?



Still care to deny that Stalin was in charge of Roosevelt's war efforts?
...and Stalin would get his way down to the last American casualty?

In the effort to install world-wide communism, any loss to either America, or to Germany, was a gain for Stalin.

Thank you, Franklin Roosevelt



Anyone know that Eisenhower agreed with Churchill that Italy was the correct attack point.....until he was bought off by George Marshall with a fifth star?

 

[Camp]

" Fascism did not acquire an evil name in Washington
until Hitler became a menace to·the Soviet Union."

I've been waiting for you to convince me as you said you would without result.

How about proving the above quote?

Post #57 proved it.

No it didn't. You can't just keep lying and expect no one will notice.

 

[PoliticalChic]

" Fascism did not acquire an evil name in Washington
until Hitler became a menace to·the Soviet Union."

I've been waiting for you to convince me as you said you would without result.

How about proving the above quote?

Post #57 proved it.

No, it just contained quotes from people that wished and hoped that fascism was supported by the USA.

Do you believe the crap terrorists say as well when it suits your agenda?

Try again.

Post #57 quotes the words of Mussolini, and Columbia professor and disciple of John Dewey, Herbert W. Schneider.

FDR was a Mussolini disciple, clearly.

And, this:
. "As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. ... In its day (the 1920s and 1930s), fascism was seen as the happy medium between boom-and-bust-prone liberal capitalism, with its alleged class conflict, wasteful competition, and profit-oriented egoism, and revolutionary Marxism, with its violent and socially divisive persecution of the bourgeoisie. Fascism substituted the particularity of nationalism and racialism—“blood and soil”—for the internationalism of both classical liberalism and Marxism.....

.... Mussolini praised the New Deal as “boldly . . . interventionist in the field of economics,” and Roosevelt complimented Mussolini for his “honest purpose of restoring Italy” and acknowledged that he kept “in fairly close touch with that admirable Italian gentleman.”

Also, Hugh Johnson, head of the National Recovery Administration, was known to carry a copy of Raffaello Viglione’s pro-Mussolini book,The Corporate State,with him, presented a copy to Labor Secretary Frances Perkins, and, on retirement, paid tribute to the Italian dictator." Fascism The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics Library of Economics and Liberty



All these years you have swallowed the propaganda, huh?
Do you recognize how stupid you are, now?

 

[Camp]

Now back to that "Elusive Second Front"....



6. So.....did it really matter where the 'second front' is located?
Stalin was adamant about it forming via the northwestern edge of the continent rather than abide by Churchill's wish, Italy.


a. Consider the analysis of NYTimes Russia expert, Edwin James:
" ALLIED FRONT IN ITALY NOT SO FAR FROM REICH; In Other Words, It Is Just as Close to Germany From Any Peninsula Point As It Is From Dnieper THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE"
By EDWIN L. JAMES
September 12, 1943
Pay Articles from September 1943 Part 4 - Site Map - The New York Times

So....why did Stalin insist on the Allies opening the front at Normandy rather than the bases already conquered in Italy?

Here's why: he wanted the Red Army to cut Europe in half , as he would be able to occupy same.

And Roosevelt agreed with him....Roosevelt wanted to give all of Eastern Europe over to this homicidal maniac who slaughtered and oppressed millions!



b.Don't believe that that was the reason for Stalin's insistence on the "second front" being as far west as possible?

"Any time or any place where German forces are engaged by the American and the British represents good luck for Stalin. That is true because Hitler's strength is taxed just as much by fighting to the south as it would be fighting to the west."
Diana West, "American Betrayal," p. 266.
How can one argue with that?

Well.....only if "taxing Hitler's strength" wasn't the aim.....gaining the territory of central Europe for the Red Army was.



c. 'To withdraw from the European continent [Italy] to re-invade the European continent was simply crazy.'
Dunn, "Caught Between Roosevelt and Stalin," p.195-196
Yet, Roosevelt sided with Stalin over Churchill, and over General Mark Clark, commander of the 5th US Army, in Italy.
Why?



Still care to deny that Stalin was in charge of Roosevelt's war efforts?
...and Stalin would get his way down to the last American casualty?

In the effort to install world-wide communism, any loss to either America, or to Germany, was a gain for Stalin.

Thank you, Franklin Roosevelt



Anyone know that Eisenhower agreed with Churchill that Italy was the correct attack point.....until he was bought off by George Marshall with a fifth star?

Hey stupid, FDR didn't want to put American troops fighting beside, in unison and competition with the USSR. Our tactics and strategy of minimizing casualties did not coincide with Stalin's tactic of accepting massive casualties with massive frontal assaults.

 

[PoliticalChic]

" Fascism did not acquire an evil name in Washington
until Hitler became a menace to·the Soviet Union."

I've been waiting for you to convince me as you said you would without result.

How about proving the above quote?

Post #57 proved it.

No it didn't. You can't just keep lying and expect no one will notice.

Post #57 clearly proves that you are the liar.

And #87 drives home the stake in your heart.

 

[Ravi]

" Fascism did not acquire an evil name in Washington
until Hitler became a menace to·the Soviet Union."

I've been waiting for you to convince me as you said you would without result.

How about proving the above quote?

Post #57 proved it.

No, it just contained quotes from people that wished and hoped that fascism was supported by the USA.

Do you believe the crap terrorists say as well when it suits your agenda?

Try again.

Post #57 quotes the words of Mussolini, and Columbia professor and disciple of John Dewey, Herbert W. Schneider.

FDR was a Mussolini disciple, clearly.

And, this:
. "As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. ... In its day (the 1920s and 1930s), fascism was seen as the happy medium between boom-and-bust-prone liberal capitalism, with its alleged class conflict, wasteful competition, and profit-oriented egoism, and revolutionary Marxism, with its violent and socially divisive persecution of the bourgeoisie. Fascism substituted the particularity of nationalism and racialism—“blood and soil”—for the internationalism of both classical liberalism and Marxism.....

.... Mussolini praised the New Deal as “boldly . . . interventionist in the field of economics,” and Roosevelt complimented Mussolini for his “honest purpose of restoring Italy” and acknowledged that he kept “in fairly close touch with that admirable Italian gentleman.”

Also, Hugh Johnson, head of the National Recovery Administration, was known to carry a copy of Raffaello Viglione’s pro-Mussolini book,The Corporate State,with him, presented a copy to Labor Secretary Frances Perkins, and, on retirement, paid tribute to the Italian dictator." Fascism The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics Library of Economics and Liberty



All these years you have swallowed the propaganda, huh?
Do you recognize how stupid you are, now?

The italian gentlemen quote is sourced to an anonymous person and therefore bullshit.

As is the rest of what you've posted...all opinion.

 

[Moonglow]

How about if you attempt to refrain from deflecting and answer the question? Explain your source by explaining Chesly Manly, Col. McCormick and the American Party.

How about you show any error in the statement.

If you cannot, admit that your sole mission is to shield Roosevelt from the contumely he so correctly deserves.

Easy. "Fascism did not aquire an evil name in Washington until Hitler became a menace to the Soviet Union," Chesly Manly "The 20 Year Revolution" P. 48. Your quote used in your OP.

There was an attempt at a coup by fascist in 1933. It was called the Business Plot and exposed by Maj. General Smedley Butler the most highly decorated Marine in history at the time of his death. He was awarded two Medals of Honor.
The Black Legion and Silver Legion were two fascist groups connected to the Klu Klux Klan of the 1930's, as was the American Bund.

Your quote by Manly is misleading. It suggest that Washington was not aware of the dangers or evilness of fascism. Clearly that was not the case.

So now answer the question that you keep deflecting from. Who should the readers believe, a highly decorated Marine Corps Major General and most highly decorated combat veteran of his time, or whatever this Chesly Manly pen name was? Hint, McCormick and the Chicago Tribune and the American Party.

Watch me eviscerate you:

1. English and French commentators routinely depicted Roosevelt as akin to Mussolini. A more specific reason why, in 1933, the New Deal was often compared with Fascism was that with the help of a massive propaganda campaign, Italy had transitioned from a liberal free-market system to a state-run corporatist one. And corporatism was considered by elitists and intellectuals as the perfect response to the collapse of the liberal free-market economy, as was the national self-sufficiency of the Stalinist Soviet Union. The National Recovery Administration was comparable to Mussolini’s corporatism as both had state control without actual expropriation of private property.
   1. Mussolini wrote a book review of Roosevelt’s “Looking Forward,” in which he said “…[as] Roosevelt here calls his readers to battle, is reminiscent of the ways and means by which Fascism awakened the Italian people.” Popolo d’Italia, July 7, 1933.
   2. In 1934, Mussolini wrote a review of “New Frontiers,” by FDR’s Sec’y of Agriculture, later Vice-President, Henry Wallace: “Wallace’s answer to what America wants is as follows: anything but a return tyo the free-market, i.e., anarchistic economy. Where is America headed? This book leaves no doubt that it is on the road to corporatism, the economic system of the current century.” Marco Sedda, Il politico, vol. 64, p. 263.
   3. “The similarities of the economics of the New Deal to the economics of Mussolini’s corporative state or Hitler’s totalitarian state are both close and obvious.” Norman Thomas, head of the American Socialist Party.
2. 1. The Fascism of the 30’s was hardly new on the scene. In fact, by the 1920’s, American intellectuals, disappointed in what they perceived as the failures of classical liberalism allowed themselves to think that Fascism was the path toward their ideals, and the same path allowed them to stumble into Stalinism some time later. The jewels of the new thinking, according to these elites, was comprehensive state control, planning and direction, as long as the goals remained “a conscious, intelligent ordering of society,” as Columbia professor and disciple of John Dewey, Herbert W. Schneider stated.
   
   a. American progressives, pragmatists, viewed Fascism’s emphasis on political repression as a regrettable but entirely understandable corollary.

Wow!

Did you just take a beating!

When ever you’re ready just yell “check please.”

Um, no, only in your imagination. You don't even understand the butters and guns narrative.

Oh, yeah.....I just ripped you a new one.

Shall I pour salt on the wound captain??

 

[PoliticalChic]

" Fascism did not acquire an evil name in Washington
until Hitler became a menace to·the Soviet Union."

I've been waiting for you to convince me as you said you would without result.

How about proving the above quote?

Post #57 proved it.

No, it just contained quotes from people that wished and hoped that fascism was supported by the USA.

Do you believe the crap terrorists say as well when it suits your agenda?

Try again.

Post #57 quotes the words of Mussolini, and Columbia professor and disciple of John Dewey, Herbert W. Schneider.

FDR was a Mussolini disciple, clearly.

And, this:
. "As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. ... In its day (the 1920s and 1930s), fascism was seen as the happy medium between boom-and-bust-prone liberal capitalism, with its alleged class conflict, wasteful competition, and profit-oriented egoism, and revolutionary Marxism, with its violent and socially divisive persecution of the bourgeoisie. Fascism substituted the particularity of nationalism and racialism—“blood and soil”—for the internationalism of both classical liberalism and Marxism.....

.... Mussolini praised the New Deal as “boldly . . . interventionist in the field of economics,” and Roosevelt complimented Mussolini for his “honest purpose of restoring Italy” and acknowledged that he kept “in fairly close touch with that admirable Italian gentleman.”

Also, Hugh Johnson, head of the National Recovery Administration, was known to carry a copy of Raffaello Viglione’s pro-Mussolini book,The Corporate State,with him, presented a copy to Labor Secretary Frances Perkins, and, on retirement, paid tribute to the Italian dictator." Fascism The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics Library of Economics and Liberty



All these years you have swallowed the propaganda, huh?
Do you recognize how stupid you are, now?

The italian gentlemen quote is sourced to an anonymous person and therefore bullshit.

As is the rest of what you've posted...all opinion.

I cannot be responsible for how oblivious you claim to be...but I do enjoy smashing these custard pies in your kisser:


1. It is a fact that none of the New Dealers were constitutionalists. Roosevelt's economist, Rexford Tugwell said: Any people who must be governed according to the written codes of an instrument which defines the spheres of individual and group, state and federal actions must expect to suffer from the constant maladjustment of progress. A life' which changes and a constitution for governance which does not must always raise questions which are difficult for solution."
Manly, Op.Cit., p. 63


2. Tugwell was opposed to any private business not controlled by the government. General Hugh Johnson was working with Tugwell on a bill to create the NRA, and gave Francis Perkins the book by Rafaello Viglione, "The Corporate State," in which the neat Italian system of dictatorship for the benefit of the people was glowingly described."
Francis Perkins, "The Roosevelt I Knew."
The NRA was copied from Mussolini's corporative system.

a. Perkins questioned whether Johnson 'really understood the democratic process..." New Dealers had no problem with the fascist nature of their plans.


Recognize the name Rex Tugwell, and Francis Perkins?

 

[Camp]

"Unhappy events abroad have retaught us the simple truths about the liberty of a democratic people.

The first truth is that the liberty of a democracy is not safe if the people tolerate the growth of private power to a point where it becomes stronger than their democratic state itself. That, in essence, is Fascism..." FDR, April 29, 1938 Address to Congress.

 

[Ravi]

I've been waiting for you to convince me as you said you would without result.

How about proving the above quote?

Post #57 proved it.

No, it just contained quotes from people that wished and hoped that fascism was supported by the USA.

Do you believe the crap terrorists say as well when it suits your agenda?

Try again.

Post #57 quotes the words of Mussolini, and Columbia professor and disciple of John Dewey, Herbert W. Schneider.

FDR was a Mussolini disciple, clearly.

And, this:
. "As an economic system, fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer. ... In its day (the 1920s and 1930s), fascism was seen as the happy medium between boom-and-bust-prone liberal capitalism, with its alleged class conflict, wasteful competition, and profit-oriented egoism, and revolutionary Marxism, with its violent and socially divisive persecution of the bourgeoisie. Fascism substituted the particularity of nationalism and racialism—“blood and soil”—for the internationalism of both classical liberalism and Marxism.....

.... Mussolini praised the New Deal as “boldly . . . interventionist in the field of economics,” and Roosevelt complimented Mussolini for his “honest purpose of restoring Italy” and acknowledged that he kept “in fairly close touch with that admirable Italian gentleman.”

Also, Hugh Johnson, head of the National Recovery Administration, was known to carry a copy of Raffaello Viglione’s pro-Mussolini book,The Corporate State,with him, presented a copy to Labor Secretary Frances Perkins, and, on retirement, paid tribute to the Italian dictator." Fascism The Concise Encyclopedia of Economics Library of Economics and Liberty



All these years you have swallowed the propaganda, huh?
Do you recognize how stupid you are, now?

The italian gentlemen quote is sourced to an anonymous person and therefore bullshit.

As is the rest of what you've posted...all opinion.

I cannot be responsible for how oblivious you claim to be...but I do enjoy smashing these custard pies in your kisser:


1. It is a fact that none of the New Dealers were constitutionalists. Roosevelt's economist, Rexford Tugwell said: Any people who must be governed according to the written codes of an instrument which defines the spheres of individual and group, state and federal actions must expect to suffer from the constant maladjustment of progress. A life' which changes and a constitution for governance which does not must always raise questions which are difficult for solution."
Manly, Op.Cit., p. 63


2. Tugwell was opposed to any private business not controlled by the government. General Hugh Johnson was working with Tugwell on a bill to create the NRA, and gave Francis Perkins the book by Rafaello Viglione, "The Corporate State," in which the neat Italian system of dictatorship for the benefit of the people was glowingly described."
Francis Perkins, "The Roosevelt I Knew."
The NRA was copied from Mussolini's corporative system.

a. Perkins questioned whether Johnson 'really understood the democratic process..." New Dealers had no problem with the fascist nature of their plans.


Recognize the name Rex Tugwell, and Francis Perkins?

Now you've quoted other peoples' opinions. Priceless.

 

[Valerie]

Now you've quoted other peoples' opinions. Priceless.

and typical...

 

[JakeStarkey]

[Three New Deals: Reflections on Roosevelt's America, Mussolini's Italy, and Hitler's Germany, 1933-1939
Nov 27, 2007 by Wolfgang Schivelbusch....if you ever decide to educate yourself.
I'm never wrong......learn that.

You are wrong about this, and Professor Schivelbush would curse you to your face for the misuse and corruption of his work for your evil purposes. You are a little Nazi.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Harry White's Creed, which PC hates

"I believe in freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of the press, freedom of criticism...

Such pretty words.

Let's look at White's deeds: Pearl Harbor 2.0 TIME.com

He betrayed his country to serve one of history's worst dictators.

Because he stood up to Japanese imperialism in Asia does not make him a communist. So did MacArthur.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Harry White's Creed, which PC hates

"I believe in freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of thought, freedom of the press, freedom of criticism...

Such pretty words.

Let's look at White's deeds: Pearl Harbor 2.0 TIME.com

I suggested that drop-draws challenge me to prove that White was influential in turning China over to the communists, but he ran away and hid.

You need to prove this OP before you fail in the next.

 

[Camp]

[Three New Deals: Reflections on Roosevelt's America, Mussolini's Italy, and Hitler's Germany, 1933-1939
Nov 27, 2007 by Wolfgang Schivelbusch....if you ever decide to educate yourself.
I'm never wrong......learn that.

You are wrong about this, and Professor Schivelbush would curse you to your face for the misuse and corruption of his work for your evil purposes. You are a little Nazi.

Notice how she still refuses to answer the first question she was asked in the thread. What was Chesly Manly, Col McCormick and the American party. Ten pages and she still avoids having to answer the questions that are the basis of her thesis.

 

[PoliticalChic]

[Three New Deals: Reflections on Roosevelt's America, Mussolini's Italy, and Hitler's Germany, 1933-1939
Nov 27, 2007 by Wolfgang Schivelbusch....if you ever decide to educate yourself.
I'm never wrong......learn that.

You are wrong about this, and Professor Schivelbush would curse you to your face for the misuse and corruption of his work for your evil purposes. You are a little Nazi.

I quoted him directly.

So....you give up, and accept the title of 'lying imbecile'?