Satan - The Accuser of The Brethren

[jan]

the very notion- that God gives man free will and then drowns all of them when they make choices he doesn't like - is not a God I would worship even if he does exist.

The argument of free will verses pre-determination by God is an old one...and as of yet has no definitive answers that I know of...yet the argument continues throughout the generations. Why? That is...other than the fact that people like to be right.

I think the reason why it is out there is that it goes back to the issue of whether God is omnipotent.

If people can act contrary to the will of God, you know, like eating meat on Lent, then God isn't Omnipotent.

On the other hand, if he meant every bad thing to happen, that would make him malevolent.

You have a point! And a good one as well!

My questions are that if indeed God is God...why did he allow Lucifer to fall and become Satan? If indeed He was / is omnipotent surely He would have known in advance that this would happen. Wouldn't He have seen it in the stars so to speak? I mean, He who makes the world rules the world, right?

My personal conclusion on this age old argument is that we don't know all the answers and never will. There are many mysteries of God and the universe that I've actually come to appreciate over time. Let's face it...Atheists don't have all the answers either...so even they have their mysteries. In the end it's what one chooses to believe...for whatever reason. Mysteries are a part of this existence no matter which end of the spectrum one affiliates themselves with. Acceptance becomes the standard.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Hold that thought...


Ezekiel 28:14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth (h5526 סָכַךְ cakak ); and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

A lot of the translations use the word covering while the Net Bible calls Lucifer the Guardian Cherub. The Doua-Rheims Bible uses the word "protecting" so I looked the word up in BLBClassic and it says:


Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon

I think he liked the glory from the atonement or "covering" as protector and liked the reputation and eventually saw himself in God's place through his role:



Ezekiel 28:14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.

(underlining is mine).

The role was too great or too tempting for him and he wanted the position that was not His. I think he coveted the position that Jesus would have. Help me out here...

I guess this would explain the "I will"s of Satan and why he wanted to be like the most High:

Isaiah 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

Isaiah 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Isaiah 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

You say, help me out here..there is one place I don't agree with you, Chuck. I don't believe satan wanted to take the place of Jesus Christ, Chuck. Satan wanted the very throne of God! He wanted to be like God the Father! Not God the Son! - Jeri

Jeri,

I understand. Keep in mind that Jesus was still pre-existant, that His role may not have been fully revealed and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one God.

I could see all that light shining off of God and reflecting off of the stones on Lucifer.

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto (unapproachable light); whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Chuck

Yes, I believe the Word God spoke in Genesis 1 is Jesus because it is written:

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God, The same was with God in the beginning. All things were made by him and without him nothing was made. In him was the life and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness and the darkness comprehendeth it not. - John 1:1 - 5

It is also evident to me that Jesus and the Holy Spirit ( who hovered over the face of the deep in Genesis 1 ) were who God the Father was speaking to in Genesis 1:26 Let "us" make man in "our " image.....

and again in Genesis 1: 27 so God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him: male and female created he them.. ( which cancels out evolution - which cancels out the idea that the Father , the Word and the Holy Ghost are 3. It isn't 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 it is 1x1x1 = 1 )

I do get your point, Chuck. I just have the check in my spirit that it was Jesus the Son of God and not the Father that Satan was after.. In fact when he entered the heart of Judas to betray Jesus I believe his intention was to deeply wound the heart of the Father because he knew the Fathers heart for his Son!

The Father is the head of the "family" with the "Son" having all authority the Father has given him as any King would hand to his Son - a Prince - in my view - If Satan could take the "head of the family" out of the way - he would then have a greater chance at robbing the Heir.. do you see my point? The Father , Son and Holy Ghost each play a distinct role although they are ONE and move as ONE. A 3 fold cord is not easily broken.

Still in closing there is one more thought to consider - that Lucifer had not yet been cast out of heaven - he had not yet waged this war against God and therein God the Father had not yet disclosed any plans of sending His Son to redeem the world - because the fall of Satan happened BEFORE the fall in the garden and he did not know the role Jesus was going to fulfill upon the earth later. EVEN THOUGH the Father had spoken it directly to him and let him know exaclty what He intended to do about it! It is written in Genesis 3:15: And I will put enmity between thee ( satan ) and the woman ( the church ) and between thy seed ( children of the devil ) and her seed ( Jesus Christ and all those who would believe upon him and be saved through him ) It shall bruise thy head ( the seed - Jesus Christ - would bruise the head of Satan ) and thou shalt bruise his heel...

So God the Father let Satan know this was coming but he obviously didn't understand what God the Father was saying to him because had he known he would never have crucified Jesus Christ the Son of God.

I didn't get that from a bible study. I got that from the Holy Ghost and my Husband confirmed it to me by telling me that it had to be the Father as Satan had no knowledge of how God would send his Son Jesus Christ to redeem man after the fall. He had yet to fall ( as an angel ) himself!

- Jeri

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

The argument of free will verses pre-determination by God is an old one...and as of yet has no definitive answers that I know of...yet the argument continues throughout the generations. Why? That is...other than the fact that people like to be right.

I think the reason why it is out there is that it goes back to the issue of whether God is omnipotent.

If people can act contrary to the will of God, you know, like eating meat on Lent, then God isn't Omnipotent.

On the other hand, if he meant every bad thing to happen, that would make him malevolent.

You have a point! And a good one as well!

My questions are that if indeed God is God...why did he allow Lucifer to fall and become Satan? If indeed He was / is omnipotent surely He would have known in advance that this would happen. Wouldn't He have seen it in the stars so to speak? I mean, He who makes the world rules the world, right?

My personal conclusion on this age old argument is that we don't know all the answers and never will. There are many mysteries of God and the universe that I've actually come to appreciate over time. Let's face it...Atheists don't have all the answers either...so even they have their mysteries. In the end it's what one chooses to believe...for whatever reason. Mysteries are a part of this existence no matter which end of the spectrum one affiliates themselves with. Acceptance becomes the standard.

Acceptance is not the standard, Jan. Acceptance of Jesus Christ as the Son of God and the one to whom all mankind must come through to the Father - is the Standard. And none other. Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess Jesus Christ is Lord.

Because like Adam and Eve, Jan, God gave his angels a free will. God is not a dictator, Jan. He desired relationship with us - he desired a family that he could commune with each and every day but it is completely up to us whether or not we accept that invitation to have that relationship with him or turn away from him. Because of the fall of Lucifer and therein the latter fall in the garden for Adam and Eve, he sent us his Only Begotten Son - Jesus Christ who is referred to as the "second Adam"... if we accept this pardon and seek reconciliation to the Father through the Cross then we shall have the blessed assurance that he shall recognize us as his own sons and daughters when we depart this earth and stand before Him on that day.. if we choose to remain a stranger and decide not to be reconciled back to Him through His Son Jesus Christ than we do not have that assurance only a fearful expectation of a fiery judgment and eternal separation from God and where he dwells... Heaven. God did not create evil. Lucifer did - the day he decided to lift up his own heart against God.. God is Holy and has no darkness in Him. God does not force himself on anyone. Lucifer had a free will and made a free choice as did all the angels who went with him on that fateful day. He did take 1 / 3 of the angels with him, you know. This was the reason Lucifer was cast out of heaven with a 1/3 of Gods angels. Pride lead to the sin of rebellion, Jan. I will keep you in my prayers and ask the Holy Spirit to show you that what I am telling you is the truth. Satan is the Accuser of the brethren - Satan is the one who accuses God and accuses Gods children. It began in the garden and it is still going on to this very day. Please consider that when the serpent was identified as the most subtil of all creatures? In the verse prior to the temptation in the Garden which led to the fall? ( Gen. 3:1 ) There was an important reason, Jan, for God having made record of it in that precise place and time - as well as His making sure it was pointed out to you today. Have a nice day. - Jeri

 

[Barb]

Joe, the bible is a closed book to you because you have set your heart against God and His Word.

( Jesus Christ ) But because others are reading, the Word of the Living God will once again expose "Satans lies " with the truth.

...

No, I've set my heart against liars who use an imaginary sky pixie to try to impose their will on me. They got away with it when I was a kid, but shit, I realized it was bullshit when I was 11.

You know when I started doubting the whole scam? Fifth grade, and this nasy old nun, Sister Mary Bonaventure, who must have been 90 then, was telling us the Story of Noah's Ark.

When I asked in a very innocent way why God drowned all the babies, the old nasty witched hissed, "They were WIIIIIIICKED Babies. WIIIIICKED!!!!"

Now, today, I know this woman was so mean-spirited, bitter and angry was because she was a self-loathing lesbian who joined a religious order and had to be locked up with a bunch of other self-loathing lesbians. Which is pretty much Hell on Earth. And they we exposed these old bats to children.

Oh, the closer for me was when another of these nuns showed up at my Mom's funeral. (My mom was the art teacher at this school) and said that God had a good reason for her to die.

She was very lucky God didn't have a good reason for me to slam her head into the nearest wall.

Pretty much done with religious assholes after that. Now I treat religion as something to be m ocked and debunked. It's a disease that needs to be expunged.

The hat ladies, as I like to call SOME kindergarten teachers, really are a detriment to the faithful. I had one. A couple, really, but one really stands out as the straw that broke the camel's back. She suggested, after asking what some of our favorite people had done to get into heaven rather than purgatory, that my grandma's best friend might be baking a few more cookies and muffins in purgatory blah de blah de blah...and I never stepped foot back in that church again. My Gram, a good catholic woman, to me just a good woman, called the hat lady woman and I never heard her mad before in my life. She was sweet, and told me never to mind gossips, to love who I love, and to let that be an end to that. I remembered Sunday school lessons when I didn't live so close to my Gram though, and long conversations with God about the shit those hat ladies said about him, how I didn't believe it was true. And to please forgive the hungry people who took a loaf of bread, the little boys who stole to feed their little sisters, and I would ask "him" night after night not to BE the hateful fuck I heard about in church right alongside the loving father I heard about in church.

And I grew up. And I learned about prehistory. About how monolithic religion came about to control and stifle the female voice of the divine (which could, to be fair, be a smidge threatening to these delicate beings known as men), and finally understood that our gods were made in OUR image.

And that doesn't mean that I don't believe in God, but that it is WE who bring divinity to bear in this world, and that we need to do so humbly, reverently, and with all the love we have at our disposal. That we must then leave every feeling attached to the seven deadlies aside, the foremost and most influential of which is FEAR, rather than greed, which is a mere reflection, offshoot, of fear. To live our lives, and to truly live, with out arms wide open to each other, to the world, to love one another the way we were born to. To me, THAT is GOD in this world.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Jerry, I don't blame the nun. I feel awful for her.

She became what she was because the minute she started to realize she liked girls, her family shoved her ass into a religious order and God knows what they did to her.

But to the point, frankly, I read a story like Noah's Ark, and as batshit crazy as Sister Bonaventure's answer was, frankly, other denominations didn't come up with better reasons why God had to commit not only genocide and infanticide, but had to wipe out an entire ecosystem.

Besides the 100 scientific reasons why Noah's Flood Story is an impossibility, the very notion- that God gives man free will and then drowns all of them when they make choices he doesn't like - is not a God I would worship even if he does exist.

Then the Holy Spirit is already having his way in your heart, Joe. Because as I stated earlier, Mercy triumphs over evil. Yet the truth remains that if this woman has harmed children entrusted into her care and does not repent before leaving this earth, her sins go with her and she therein stands in the judgment - guilty - there is no holiness apart from God's love, Joe. It is written: Without holiness no one will see the LORD. There is no sin in stating this truth, Joe.

Still, I am grieved for the pain inflicted upon your heart as a child for you did call her a witch and I must believe on some unconcious level - there is still some healing that needs to be done to cast out the hatred in your heart for the body of Christ and for God whom you do not know yet judge. When one hears the word witch is brings to light the reason perhaps you chose the definition - earlier in your previous post to Chuck I believe you stated the definition of such a one. One who poisons... is what you said if I am remembering correctly... perhaps poisoning of the mind - even a child - in that if you did identify her correctly... my prayer is she repents before leaving this earth. I would not wish hell upon any human as it was never designed for a human but only for Satan and the angels who rebelled with him against God.

As to your second point on the judging God as unrighteous? It is written:

As it is written, JACOB HAVE I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HAVE HATED. What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith unto Moses, I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I WILL HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I WILL HAVE COMPASSION. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

For the scripture saith unto Pharoah, EVEN FOR THIS SAME PURPOSE HAVE I RAISED THEE UP, THAT I MIGHT SHEW MY POWER IN THEE, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE DECLARED THROUGHOUT THE EARTH.

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth, Thou will say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.
Even us, who he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles. as he saith also in, O see, I WILL CALL THEM MY PEOPLE, WHICH WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, AND HER BELOVED, WHICH WAS NOT BELOVED.
AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS, THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM, YE ARE NOT MY PEOPLE, THERE SHALL THEY BE CALLED THE CHILDREN OF THE LIVING GOD.

Esias also cried concerning, Israel, THOUGH THE NUMBER OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL BE AS THE SAND OF OF THE SEA, A REMNANT SHALL BE SAVED; FOR HE WILL FINISH THE WORK AND CUT IT SHORT IN RIGHTEOUSNESS BECAUSE A SHORT WORK WILL THE LORD MAKE UPON THE EARTH.
And as Esaias said before, EXCEPT THE LORD OF SABBOTH HAD LEFT US A SEED, WE HAD BEEN AS SODOM AND BEEN MADE LIKE UNTO GOMORRHA.

- IT IS WRITTEN ROMANS 9: 13-29

I will pray for you, Joe, but you must repent. - J.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Joe, the bible is a closed book to you because you have set your heart against God and His Word.

( Jesus Christ ) But because others are reading, the Word of the Living God will once again expose "Satans lies " with the truth.

...

No, I've set my heart against liars who use an imaginary sky pixie to try to impose their will on me. They got away with it when I was a kid, but shit, I realized it was bullshit when I was 11.

You know when I started doubting the whole scam? Fifth grade, and this nasy old nun, Sister Mary Bonaventure, who must have been 90 then, was telling us the Story of Noah's Ark.

When I asked in a very innocent way why God drowned all the babies, the old nasty witched hissed, "They were WIIIIIIICKED Babies. WIIIIICKED!!!!"

Now, today, I know this woman was so mean-spirited, bitter and angry was because she was a self-loathing lesbian who joined a religious order and had to be locked up with a bunch of other self-loathing lesbians. Which is pretty much Hell on Earth. And they we exposed these old bats to children.

Oh, the closer for me was when another of these nuns showed up at my Mom's funeral. (My mom was the art teacher at this school) and said that God had a good reason for her to die.

She was very lucky God didn't have a good reason for me to slam her head into the nearest wall.

Pretty much done with religious assholes after that. Now I treat religion as something to be m ocked and debunked. It's a disease that needs to be expunged.

The hat ladies, as I like to call SOME kindergarten teachers, really are a detriment to the faithful. I had one. A couple, really, but one really stands out as the straw that broke the camel's back. She suggested, after asking what some of our favorite people had done to get into heaven rather than purgatory, that my grandma's best friend might be baking a few more cookies and muffins in purgatory blah de blah de blah...and I never stepped foot back in that church again. My Gram, a good catholic woman, to me just a good woman, called the hat lady woman and I never heard her mad before in my life. She was sweet, and told me never to mind gossips, to love who I love, and to let that be an end to that. I remembered Sunday school lessons when I didn't live so close to my Gram though, and long conversations with God about the shit those hat ladies said about him, how I didn't believe it was true. And to please forgive the hungry people who took a loaf of bread, the little boys who stole to feed their little sisters, and I would ask "him" night after night not to BE the hateful fuck I heard about in church right alongside the loving father I heard about in church.

And I grew up. And I learned about prehistory. About how monolithic religion came about to control and stifle the female voice of the divine (which could, to be fair, be a smidge threatening to these delicate beings known as men), and finally understood that our gods were made in OUR image.

And that doesn't mean that I don't believe in God, but that it is WE who bring divinity to bear in this world, and that we need to do so humbly, reverently, and with all the love we have at our disposal. That we must then leave every feeling attached to the seven deadlies aside, the foremost and most influential of which is FEAR, rather than greed, which is a mere reflection, offshoot, of fear. To live our lives, and to truly live, with out arms wide open to each other, to the world, to love one another the way we were born to. To me, THAT is GOD in this world.

Barb, there is coming a day when the Spirit of God shall be poured out upon ALL flesh. I sincerely believe that this has not yet happened as described by Joel. Some people simply do not know the God of the Bible nor his holiness or his ways.... It has yet to be revealed to them that God is who he said he is in the Written Word of God - the Bible - yet I believe these ones shall know. Only God knows the heart of a man or a woman to know whether or not they have realized Jesus Christ is the Redeemer and no man comes to the Father but through the Son. Only God knows the heart of a person to know if that person has already rejected Jesus Christ as their Messiah. About this coming day........ It is spoken of in Joel 2: 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 and here it is :

And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and daughters shall prophesy, your old men will dream dreams your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come. And is shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered, for in mount Zion and and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance as the LORD had said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
- Joel 2: 28 - 32

We must come when the Lord calls us - when the Spirit of God draws us and reveals Jesus is the Christ - that is the meaning of "Today is the Day of Salvation".. but these refer to the ones who will know in that day. Hope that helps. - J.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

If the Word had promised favor of kings or places of honor we would not be surprised to see many turn to Christianity. But the gospel the disciples preached did not come with a single bribe in its hand. No golden apples were thrown along the path to entice sinners. Christ tells his disciples not to stoop or take up crowns for their heads, but a cross for their backs. - William Gurnall

If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me. -Matt 16:24

 

[JoeB131]

Then the Holy Spirit is already having his way in your heart, Joe. Because as I stated earlier, Mercy triumphs over evil. Yet the truth remains that if this woman has harmed children entrusted into her care and does not repent before leaving this earth, her sins go with her and she therein stands in the judgment - guilty - there is no holiness apart from God's love, Joe. It is written: Without holiness no one will see the LORD. There is no sin in stating this truth, Joe.

Still, I am grieved for the pain inflicted upon your heart as a child for you did call her a witch and I must believe on some unconcious level - there is still some healing that needs to be done to cast out the hatred in your heart for the body of Christ and for God whom you do not know yet judge. When one hears the word witch is brings to light the reason perhaps you chose the definition - earlier in your previous post to Chuck I believe you stated the definition of such a one. One who poisons... is what you said if I am remembering correctly... perhaps poisoning of the mind - even a child - in that if you did identify her correctly... my prayer is she repents before leaving this earth. I would not wish hell upon any human as it was never designed for a human but only for Satan and the angels who rebelled with him against God.



I will pray for you, Joe, but you must repent. - J.

I don't consider I have anything to repent. Calling this nasty woman a 'witch" was probably an insult to witches. (I used to date a Wiccan Babe once.)

I don't think I need to beleive in your magic sky man to be a good person. Quite the contrary, now freed of that nonsense and superstition, I am free to make moral choices on their own merits, and I usually make the right ones.

I help people when I can. Even people I don't particularly like.