Science & Reason vs. Atheism

[Thunderbird]

Some arguments for the existence Of God:

Teleological arguments

• What is the “fine-tuning” of the universe, and how does it serve as a “pointer to God”?
  
• Why is the universe so beautiful? If you don't believe in Design you think the universe is a random mess, and how can a random mess be beautiful?
  
• Why can the physical world be described by elegant equations? Here's John Polkinghorne: “We are so familiar with the fact that we can understand the world that most of the time we take it for granted. It is what makes science possible. Yet it could have been otherwise. The universe might have been a disorderly chaos rather than an orderly cosmos."

Cosmological argument

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQXmLI6VAwc"]Dr. John Lennox[/ame]

Other

Why should we discard the testimony of billions who pray and think they have encountered God?

 

[Moonglow]

Wouldn't be a bitch if God turned out to be nonsexualy orientated?

 

[Thunderbird]

And check out this website: Twenty Arguments For The Existence Of God

 

[rightwinger]

Fine-tuning refers to the surprising precision of nature’s physical constants, and the beginning state of the Universe. To explain the present state of the universe, even the best scientific theories require that the physical constants of nature and the beginning state of the Universe have extremely precise values.

That is what we call Science

Why is the universe so beautiful? If you don't believe in Design you think the universe is a random mess, and how can a random mess be beautiful

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The world around us is all we have, so of course we call it beautiful

Why can the physical world be described by elegant equations

It is what we call Science

Why should we discard the testimony of billions who pray and think they have encountered God?

Because it is their opinion that they have encountered God, none of those billion have provided facts or scientific proof

 

[Moonglow]

All I need to know is, who created God, then all questions would be answered..

 

[Thunderbird]

That is what we call Science

Did you read the article?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The world around us is all we have, so of course we call it beautiful

Do you think the universe is beautiful?

It is what we call Science

Why can the physical world be described by mathematical formulas - with their elegance, consistency, order, simplicity, symmetry?

Why is the physical world ordered & elegant?

Because it is their opinion that they have encountered God, none of those billion have provided facts or scientific proof

They have provided not just an opinion but testimony.

 

[rightwinger]

That is what we call Science

Did you read the article?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The world around us is all we have, so of course we call it beautiful

Do you think the universe is beautiful?

It is what we call Science

Why can the physical world be described by mathematical formulas - with their elegance, consistency, order, simplicity, symmetry?

Why is the physical world ordered & elegant?

Because it is their opinion that they have encountered God, none of those billion have provided facts or scientific proof

They have provided not just an opinion but testimony.

Why?

Because if there was not scientific structure it would not work. You are claiming Science as proof God exists. If you want to claim science as your God, go right at it

 

[Thunderbird]

If you want to claim science as your God, go right at it

What???

 

[emilynghiem]

Wouldn't be a bitch if God turned out to be nonsexualy orientated?

How about all inclusive, or the union of all the manifestations or representations of God?

God as Wisdom is traditionally FEMALE Sophia, referenced more times in the Bible
than "God as the Heavenly Father" by a ratio of 10:1

God as Creator/Heavenly Father
or as Creation/Nature/Mother Earth is equally depicted as either male/female.

If humanity is made in the image of God, and humans are both male/female
then it makes sense God has both male/female spiritual sides in order to be whole.

In the Trinity, God and Jesus are male, and most people refer to the Comforter as a he or male persona, but other interpretations tie the Holy Spirit to the church body which is female, or the Bride of Christ, the receiver of the Law represented by Govt as the Husband.

It depends "what context" in which you express "different aspects of God,"
where some are associated or depicted in the feminine and some in the masculine.

God as Love may be more gender-neutral.
God's Truth or God's Laws may be more male associated because of patriarchal culture.

Justice is depicted with female Goddesses,
while Jesus as the embodiment of Justice is male.

God's love, truth and wisdom is still the same, no matter how we personify it or not.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear rightwinger: Regarding scientific proof,
what science can show that is common to both secular and faith-based systems,
is the process of forgiveness and healing on people and relationships.

This has been scientifically studied and proven.

Secular studies on forgiveness show a higher impact on mental and physical health; and one study estimated over 80% of illness is related to unforgiveness.

Studies on Rheumatoid Arthritis by a medical team that documented results of a healing prayer team led by Dr. Francis MacNutt showed positive impact on reducing or removing the pain, and in one case completely curing the man who could now walk normally without pain or need for medication, when before he was crippled with pain.

Olivia Reiner in Houston, who I know and refer personally, has over 30 years of testimonies of spiritual healing curing everything from cancer, mental illness, drug addiction, and organ failure. All these can be documented medically; the leader at one of the churches in my neighborhood said her case of curing a rare kidney or liver disease that should have killed her is documented in the Texas Medical Center.

The most amazing things I have found out since studying the process of healing:
1. when it works with secular gentiles or atheists, they do not necessarily convert into Christians or any belief in a personified God or Jesus. They just accept the forgiveness and learn to apply it to more and more situations, so they still receiving healing.
This has shocked my Christian friends who thought they would convert.
Dr. Scott Peck also ran across this with a patient cured of schizophrenia by deliverance prayer; he expected her to show more appreciation of Christianity but instead she dropped her interest in religion and went into science and medical studies because she became fascinated in how the scientific method and treatment was used to help her.

2. it not only heals the person's mind body and health, but it changes the RELATIONSHIPS around the person. So this shows it is more than just a physical process limited to where the therapy was applied. People report meeting new people to help them, which they did not have access to before. So solutions start coming in from elsewhere, which they do not control with their thinking. The healing and forgiveness attracts more of the same, so it is a greater process than just inside the person's mind.

3. and lastly I sadly find that the barriers to sharing this information are still blocked
because of unforgiveness, distrust, and past conflicts between views of religion and science. the solutions can be right in front of our faces, but people refuse and reject
because of past issues with "other groups that abused us" and so we can't get past that.
So that is where the understanding of forgiveness is most needed, but ironically is rejected because of unforgiveness itself. Just when I think I've found an opening to break this vicious cycle, someone slams the door and kills it off, so I have to start over; try to forgive and be the bigger person, and hope we get another chance to work it out.

That part I can never outguess, so I am constantly finding new surprises in the process.

Fine-tuning refers to the surprising precision of nature’s physical constants, and the beginning state of the Universe. To explain the present state of the universe, even the best scientific theories require that the physical constants of nature and the beginning state of the Universe have extremely precise values.

That is what we call Science

Why is the universe so beautiful? If you don't believe in Design you think the universe is a random mess, and how can a random mess be beautiful

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The world around us is all we have, so of course we call it beautiful

Why can the physical world be described by elegant equations

It is what we call Science

Why should we discard the testimony of billions who pray and think they have encountered God?

Because it is their opinion that they have encountered God, none of those billion have provided facts or scientific proof

Yes, there is more science to back spiritual healing as natural; and I wish people would focus on proof of healing instead of just proof of heaven which is too subjective.

 

[indiajo]

Do you think the universe is beautiful?

No.

Actually only the computer aided coloured pictures are beautiful.
In reality the universe is fucking cold, or partially millions of degrees hot, full of deadly radiation and hyperviolent explosions, black holes and other unpleasant stuff
We are just lucky to sit in the last row where we are more or less safe for the time being.

Until Apophis or another fucking asteroid hits us.

 

[Ancient lion]

Must watch:

 

[JakeStarkey]

Always make sure that you have definitions of terms accepted in common.

Otherwise, a food fight ensues.

 

[Newby]

Always make sure that you have definitions of terms accepted in common.
Otherwise, a food fight ensues.

You mean like 'fundamentalist'?

That comment coming from you Jakey is the height of irony, thanks for the laugh!

 

[Steven_R]

Do you think the universe is beautiful?

No.

Actually only the computer aided coloured pictures are beautiful.
In reality the universe is fucking cold, or partially millions of degrees hot, full of deadly radiation and hyperviolent explosions, black holes and other unpleasant stuff
We are just lucky to sit in the last row where we are more or less safe for the time being.

Until Apophis or another fucking asteroid hits us.

Pretty much. For every pretty picture of a planet or snowflake or iceberg, I can show a picture of a birth defect, disease ridden corpse, or village wiped out by Mother Nature. We haven't even gotten into the near endless ways the universe can and will kill us of we leave the Earth, or even the numerous natural ways the Earth kills us.

The universe is many things, but fine-tuned for us ain't one of them. If anything, we're fin-tuned for the universe.

 

[Thunderbird]

In reality the universe is fucking cold, or partially millions of degrees hot, full of deadly radiation and hyperviolent explosions, black holes and other unpleasant stuff

Dangerous does not mean not beautiful.

 

[SillyWabbit]

Beauty, horror, there is plenty of both in our universe. To say God is responsible for the first, one must also accept that He is the Creator of the second.

Right?

 

[Steven_R]

Beauty, horror, there is plenty of both in our universe. To say God is responsible for the first, one must also accept that He is the Creator of the second.

Right?

Quite.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPriOQkKd6k&feature=kp]Monty Python All Things Dull And Ugly 19 - YouTube[/ame]

 

[emilynghiem]

Beauty, horror, there is plenty of both in our universe. To say God is responsible for the first, one must also accept that He is the Creator of the second.

Right?

I would keep it neutral, that if the same God created the laws that
govern nature and our health, then that automatically includes how the
right balance and nutrients facilitate health
while "imbalances" weaken the mind and body to invite sickness and disease.

So the same laws predict good or bad health as a consequence.

Same with human relations.
If we act with good will or ill will, if we include and respect one another as equals,
vs. if we
act out of bad faith or bad will, if we exclude and reject each other
then we tend to yield and attract relative results accordingly.

The same laws of justice, cause and effect, or karma govern in all these cases.
So the same source of laws is behind the whole system governing all events universally.

 

[Thunderbird]

Beauty, horror, there is plenty of both in our universe. To say God is responsible for the first, one must also accept that He is the Creator of the second.

Right?

Wrong.

In the Christian understanding God is love. Jesus suffers - he shows solidarity with those who suffer.

Philosophers have long debated why people, even good people, suffer. A few possibilities:

1) Some suffering is caused by evil individuals who reject Jesus' call for forgiveness, kindness, and human dignity. God can't interfere with their decisions without violating their freedom.
2) Satan, who possesses undetermined powers, is partly responsible for evil.
3) Suffering can lead to good. I'm sure we can all think of times when suffering has led to personal growth.
4) The earthly death we suffer is not the end, only the beginning.
5) God's noble goals come intertwined with suffering.

Dr. Francis Collins: the same forces that produced a life-sustaining planet including the laws of physics, chemistry, weather and tectonics, can also produce natural disasters.