Sen Joe McCarthy: American Patriot and Hero

[Gadawg73]

McCarthy ... called the CIA "a sinkhole of communists".

When and where did McCarthy call the CIA "a sinkhole of communists"? What is your source?

Unless I'm mistaken, your quote is not of McCarthy, but of Evan Thomas.

Mark, do you deny that McCarthy claimed that senior members of founding members of the CIA were security risks? Are you denying that Cord Meyer of Operation Mockingbird was one of these and McCarthy told Richard Helms, deputy of Office of Policy Coordination (OPC) that McCarthy had accused Meyer to him of being a communist and that that the "CIA is a sinkhole of communists" and that he intended to root out a hundred of them at CIA? Mark, are you claiming that Helms is a liar and that the FBI did not refuse to give Meyer a security clearance? Are you claiming that the FBI had ANY evidence, and if they did, how come they never offered any? Mark, are you claiming that Allan Dulles, the first and longest sitting head of the CIA, a man that stood up to the FBI and McCarthy by denying FBI interrogation of Meyer, was wrong and was covering for communitsts in the CIA? Are you claiming that Frank Wisener, the head of OSS in eastern Europe in WWII and the head of Directorate of Plans in CIA in the 50s would make up that he also was told that by FBI was told by McCarthy that there were over 100 communists in CIA?
Are you aware that Wisener also stood up to McCarthy and publicly told him that the FBI would not be allowed to interrogate Meyer.

All of the above is documented by Dulles, Meyer and Wisener. What about any of their documented claims is untrue and what evidence do you offer to refute their documented accounts?

 

[Mark LaRochelle]

G. David Schine was... drafted into the military

Yes, Schine was selected by his local draft board in New York City, which was highly sympathetic to some of the people McCarthy was investigating and extremely hostile to McCarthy. Schine was drafted in the nick of time, just before his 26th birthday, upon which he would have become ineligible.

Schine's selection followed a campaign by influential left-wing gossip columnist Drew Pearson demanding that Schine be drafted. Pearson had had success with this tactic previously, when he similarly campaigned to have HUAC chief investigator Robert Stripling drafted, a campaign that likewise ended in his target being drafted.

Schine, a Harvard graduate who had previously served in the Army Transport Service after being classified 4F due to a slipped disk in his back, was drafted as a buck private, denied an opportunity to attend Officer Candidate School.

Roy Cohn attempted to get the Army to allow his camping buddy to stay close to home the Army said no.

The use of the smear term "camping buddy" to insinuate that Schine was gay is off the mark. Cohn's interest in Schine, writes Neil Miller in Out of the Past: Gay and Lesbian History from 1869 to the Present, “may or may not have had a homosexual element to it.” [Empasis added] “Cohn's obsession with Mr. Schine, in light of what became known about Cohn in the 1980's, is one thing,” observed Tom Wolfe in The New York Times. “But so far as Mr. Schine is concerned, there has never been the slightest evidence that he was anything but a good-looking kid who was having a helluva good time in a helluva good cause.” Even the “Encyclopedia of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, & Queer Culture” admits Schine was “heterosexual.”

But did Cohn really attempt to get the Army to allow Schine to stay close to home? Did the Army really say no? Before he was drafted, Schine had been traveling from Washington, DC to First Army Headquarters in New York City as part of the Fort Monmouth investigation. After he was drafted, Schine was stationed at Fort Dix, NJ, thus shortening his weekend trips to NYC from more than 200 miles to less than 75 miles.

Cohn stated "I will wreck the Army".

When and where did Cohn state this? What is your source?

Cohn and McCarthy publicly claimed the Army was holding Schine "hostage in an attempt to stop investigations into communists in the Army"

Yes, and the Army-McCarthy hearings under Senator Mundt concluded that this was indeed the case. As Secretary of the Army Robert Stevens admitted, if Schine “hadn't been working for McCarthy, he probably never would have been drafted.”

Briefly: In 1952, ten Signal Corps Intelligence Agency (SCIA) officials at the Pentagon, headed by Col. Jim Allen, SCIA executive officer, petitioned Congress to investigate what they charged was pro-Communist infiltration of (and disappearance of classified materials from) SCIA.

Capt. Benjamin Sheehan of G-2 (Army counterintelligence) headed a team ordered by First Army headquarters in New York to investigate “an espionage ring at Fort Monmouth,” N.J. This Army Signal Corps base was the center of activity of the Rosenberg ring, including agents Morton Sobell, Joel Barr, Alfred Sarant, Klaus Fuchs, Harry Gold and David Greenglass. The G-2 probe reported “an immensely large number of employees of questionable loyalty” at the complex.

Maj. Gen. Kirke B. Lawton, base commander of Fort Monmouth, told McCarthy staffer Jim Juliana, an ex-FBI agent, that he had recommended the suspension of 44 security suspects identified by G-2, but that the Army Loyalty and Screening Board had reversed his decisions, clearing all 44, preventing the suspension of a single suspect. Lawton said he got action only after McCarthy opened his Fort Monmouth inquest, testifying in executive session before the McCarthy subcommittee that he had gotten more results in “the last two weeks” than “the past 4 years.” For his honesty, the Army relieved Lawton of his command.

It was during these hearings that Pearson began agitating for the drafting of Schine. When McCarthy made it clear that he intended to subpoena the members of the security board that had reversed the suspensions at Fort Monmouth, the White House began circulating rumors that the whole Fort Monmouth inquiry was a sham, cooked up by McCarthy and Cohn to pressure the Army into giving Schine special treatment. Anonymous leaks to that effect appeared in the columns of liberal Washington journalists Joseph and Stewart Alsop, blood relatives of Eleanor as well as Franklin Roosevelt.

In its final report on the Army-McCarthy hearings, the Senate concluded that “the investigation at Fort Monmouth was not devised or conducted as a leverage to secure preferential treatment for G. David Schine,” but rather that Secretary Stevens and Army counsel John Adams “made efforts to terminate or influence the investigation and hearings at Fort Monmouth,” adding that Adams “made vigorous and diligent efforts when the subpoenas were issued for the Army Loyalty and Screening Board to halt this action by means of personal appeals to certain members of this committee.”

How come McCarthy never revealed who those commies were in the Army?

Did McCarthy state that there were Communists in the Army? When and where did he say that? What is your source?

 

[Mark LaRochelle]

Venona didn't back up all of Mccarthy's accusations.

Return to Responses, Reflections and Occasional Papers // Return to Historical Writings

That's true. McCarthy's files (given to Evans by surviving McCarthy staffer Jim Juliana, an ex-FBI agent) included files from Truman's loyalty review boards, the Civil Service Commission, FBI, State Department Security and Army Counterintelligence, but not Venona.

Furthermore, the Venona traffic identifies only people who had covert relationships with Soviet intelligence. McCarthy's suspects were not necessarily spies but, as he said, Communists or fellow travelers (thus ineligible for Federal employment under the Truman loyalty order). So one would not expect McCarthy's suspects to turn up in the Venona decrypts.

Nevertheless, among his suspects, he managed to identify a surprising number of officials in sensitive positions who would be implicated in these cables in covert relationships with Soviet intelligence. Among these were:

*Lauchlin Currie, administrative assistant to President Roosevelt
*Philip Keeney, Office of Strategic Services (OSS)
*Cedric Belfrage, OSS
*Duncan Lee, OSS
*Leonard Mins, OSS
*Franz Neuman, OSS
*David Karr, Office of War Information
*Mary Jane Keeney,United Nations (UN)
*Virginius Frank Coe, Secretary, International Monetary Fund; Director, Division of Monetary Research, U.S. Treasury; Technical Secretary, Bretton Woods Conference
*Solomon Adler, attache to China, U.S. Treasury
*William Ludwig Ullman, delegate, UN Charter Conference and Bretton Woods Conference
*Nathan Gregory Silvermaster, U.S. Treasury; War Assets Administration; Board of Economic Warfare (BEW)
*Harold Glasser, Vice-Chairman, War Production Board; U.S. Treasury Representative, UN Relief and Rehabilitation Administration, Allied High Commission in Italy
*Allan Rosenberg, BEW; Foreign Economic Administration; Senate Civil Liberties Committee; Chief, Economic Institution Staff, Foreign Economic Administration; Counsel, National Labor Relations Board
*T.A. Bisson, BEW

It's true that most of McCarthy's suspects don't appear in these cables. But that doesn't mean they weren't Communists, fellow travelers, or even spies. According to the NSA's "Introductory History of VENONA and Guide to the Translations":

"Of the message traffic from the KGB New York office to Moscow, 49 percent of the 1944 messages and 15 percent of the 1943 messages were readable, but this was true of only 1.8 percent of the 1942 messages. For the 1945 KGB Washington office to Moscow messages, only 1.5 percent were readable. About 50 percent of the 1943 GRU-Naval Washington to Moscow messages were read, but none from any other year."

The sources you link to above, Professors Haynes and Klehr, agree. Because "cryptanalysts in the Venona Project deciphered only a fraction of the Soviet intelligence traffic," they write, it is "only logical to conclude that many additional agents were discussed in the thousands of unread messages. Some were identified from other sources." Moreover, Haynes and Klehr provide a list of 139 persons for whom evidence for covert relationships with Soviet intelligence, they write, "comes from sources other than the Venona decryptions," including "defectors' testimony and the confessions of Soviet spies."

It was these confessions and testimony of defectors -- Bentley, Chambers, Gouzenko, Budenz, Massing, Krivitsky Kravchenko, etc. -- that filled McCarthy's files and provided the basis for the lists of suspects he submitted to the Senate for investigation.

 

[Mark LaRochelle]

McCarthy forged Admiral Nimitz' signature on a letter of commendation. That he admitted to later in life.

When and where did McCarthy admit that he had forged Nimitz' signature? What is your source?

 

[Gadawg73]

G. David Schine was... drafted into the military

Yes, Schine was selected by his local draft board in New York City, which was highly sympathetic to some of the people McCarthy was investigating and extremely hostile to McCarthy. Schine was drafted in the nick of time, just before his 26th birthday, upon which he would have become ineligible.

Schine's selection followed a campaign by influential left-wing gossip columnist Drew Pearson demanding that Schine be drafted. Pearson had had success with this tactic previously, when he similarly campaigned to have HUAC chief investigator Robert Stripling drafted, a campaign that likewise ended in his target being drafted.

Schine, a Harvard graduate who had previously served in the Army Transport Service after being classified 4F due to a slipped disk in his back, was drafted as a buck private, denied an opportunity to attend Officer Candidate School.

Roy Cohn attempted to get the Army to allow his camping buddy to stay close to home the Army said no.

The use of the smear term "camping buddy" to insinuate that Schine was gay is off the mark. Cohn's interest in Schine, writes Neil Miller in Out of the Past: Gay and Lesbian History from 1869 to the Present, “may or may not have had a homosexual element to it.” [Empasis added] “Cohn's obsession with Mr. Schine, in light of what became known about Cohn in the 1980's, is one thing,” observed Tom Wolfe in The New York Times. “But so far as Mr. Schine is concerned, there has never been the slightest evidence that he was anything but a good-looking kid who was having a helluva good time in a helluva good cause.” Even the “Encyclopedia of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, & Queer Culture” admits Schine was “heterosexual.”

But did Cohn really attempt to get the Army to allow Schine to stay close to home? Did the Army really say no? Before he was drafted, Schine had been traveling from Washington, DC to First Army Headquarters in New York City as part of the Fort Monmouth investigation. After he was drafted, Schine was stationed at Fort Dix, NJ, thus shortening his weekend trips to NYC from more than 200 miles to less than 75 miles.



When and where did Cohn state this? What is your source?

Cohn and McCarthy publicly claimed the Army was holding Schine "hostage in an attempt to stop investigations into communists in the Army"

Yes, and the Army-McCarthy hearings under Senator Mundt concluded that this was indeed the case. As Secretary of the Army Robert Stevens admitted, if Schine “hadn't been working for McCarthy, he probably never would have been drafted.”

Briefly: In 1952, ten Signal Corps Intelligence Agency (SCIA) officials at the Pentagon, headed by Col. Jim Allen, SCIA executive officer, petitioned Congress to investigate what they charged was pro-Communist infiltration of (and disappearance of classified materials from) SCIA.

Capt. Benjamin Sheehan of G-2 (Army counterintelligence) headed a team ordered by First Army headquarters in New York to investigate “an espionage ring at Fort Monmouth,” N.J. This Army Signal Corps base was the center of activity of the Rosenberg ring, including agents Morton Sobell, Joel Barr, Alfred Sarant, Klaus Fuchs, Harry Gold and David Greenglass. The G-2 probe reported “an immensely large number of employees of questionable loyalty” at the complex.

Maj. Gen. Kirke B. Lawton, base commander of Fort Monmouth, told McCarthy staffer Jim Juliana, an ex-FBI agent, that he had recommended the suspension of 44 security suspects identified by G-2, but that the Army Loyalty and Screening Board had reversed his decisions, clearing all 44, preventing the suspension of a single suspect. Lawton said he got action only after McCarthy opened his Fort Monmouth inquest, testifying in executive session before the McCarthy subcommittee that he had gotten more results in “the last two weeks” than “the past 4 years.” For his honesty, the Army relieved Lawton of his command.

It was during these hearings that Pearson began agitating for the drafting of Schine. When McCarthy made it clear that he intended to subpoena the members of the security board that had reversed the suspensions at Fort Monmouth, the White House began circulating rumors that the whole Fort Monmouth inquiry was a sham, cooked up by McCarthy and Cohn to pressure the Army into giving Schine special treatment. Anonymous leaks to that effect appeared in the columns of liberal Washington journalists Joseph and Stewart Alsop, blood relatives of Eleanor as well as Franklin Roosevelt.

In its final report on the Army-McCarthy hearings, the Senate concluded that “the investigation at Fort Monmouth was not devised or conducted as a leverage to secure preferential treatment for G. David Schine,” but rather that Secretary Stevens and Army counsel John Adams “made efforts to terminate or influence the investigation and hearings at Fort Monmouth,” adding that Adams “made vigorous and diligent efforts when the subpoenas were issued for the Army Loyalty and Screening Board to halt this action by means of personal appeals to certain members of this committee.”

How come McCarthy never revealed who those commies were in the Army?

Did McCarthy state that there were Communists in the Army? When and where did he say that? What is your source?

"Questionable loyalty" What bull shit!
Accusations were made up. This entire BS was made up.
Name ONE employee that a G-2 probe named that had ANY EVIDENCE. Accordingly, you know, I know, Stevie Wonder can see Fort Monmouth was a crock of shit.
Schine was drafted into the Army in November 1953.
Schine worked for McCarthy in the Army hearings in 1954.
I could care less if Schine, Cohn, McCarthy, Elton John or anyone is gay.
Are you claiming with a straight face after all the allegations that you just threw at the wall to attempt to see if any stick that Joe McCarthy never thought and stated "communists are in the Army"?
WTF were all the questionable loyalty, loyalty oaths, Rosenberg spy ring operatives at Army Signal Corps, "espionage rings at Fort Monmouth" and all of the other allegations made if McCarthy never belived there were any communists in the Army?
You speak out of both sides of your mouth and play both sides of the fence.
Which is it? Did McCarthy believe there were communists in the Army or did he not believe it? If he didn't then why all the allegations that you cut and pasted?

 

[Mark LaRochelle]

We damn well knew since the late 30s, had intelligence operations worldwide, state side AND IN THE GOVERNMENT, working to gather intelligence and turn operatives.
McCarthy compromised those operations with his Hollywood performance.

Well, Krivitsky reported the presence of agents in the State Department and Chambers revealed the existence of the Ware group to Berle in 1939, but the FBI didn't find out about that until 1942. There was no corroboration until the defections of Gouzenko and Bentley in 1945, upon which investigation began in earnest. To save itself political embarrassment, the Truman administration thwarted investigation at every turn, from Amerasia, to the 1946-47 grand jury, to the stonewalling doctrine of "executive privilege."

Truman flew the canard that McCarthy's investigations were compromising ongoing FBI investigations twice, once in the case of Victor Perlo, and once in the case of Harry Dexter White. The FBI categorically denied such claims. In the case of White, Truman claimed that his promotion of White from Treasury to the IMF was in cooperation with an FBI investigation. Hoover's response was unequivocal: “At no time was the FBI a party to an agreement to promote Harry Dexter White and at no time did the FBI give its approval to such an agreement." Not only was White's promotion not in furtherance of the FBI's investigation, it actually hindered it. Truman had moved White to the IMF, said Hoover, "whose premises are extraterritorial, and the FBI does not have any right to follow any ... person onto (its) property. ...We were certainly hampered" by this promotion.

 

[Mark LaRochelle]

Hoover publicly called them "Wisners gang of weirdos".

Well, if Hoover did that publicly, there should be a public record. When and where did Hoover publicly call the OPC "Wisners gang of weirdos?"

 

[JakeStarkey]

G. David Schine was... drafted into the military

Yes, Schine was selected by his local draft board in New York City, which was highly sympathetic to some of the people McCarthy was investigating and extremely hostile to McCarthy. Schine was drafted in the nick of time, just before his 26th birthday, upon which he would have become ineligible.

Schine's selection followed a campaign by influential left-wing gossip columnist Drew Pearson demanding that Schine be drafted. Pearson had had success with this tactic previously, when he similarly campaigned to have HUAC chief investigator Robert Stripling drafted, a campaign that likewise ended in his target being drafted.

Schine, a Harvard graduate who had previously served in the Army Transport Service after being classified 4F due to a slipped disk in his back, was drafted as a buck private, denied an opportunity to attend Officer Candidate School.

Roy Cohn attempted to get the Army to allow his camping buddy to stay close to home the Army said no.

The use of the smear term "camping buddy" to insinuate that Schine was gay is off the mark. Cohn's interest in Schine, writes Neil Miller in Out of the Past: Gay and Lesbian History from 1869 to the Present, “may or may not have had a homosexual element to it.” [Empasis added] “Cohn's obsession with Mr. Schine, in light of what became known about Cohn in the 1980's, is one thing,” observed Tom Wolfe in The New York Times. “But so far as Mr. Schine is concerned, there has never been the slightest evidence that he was anything but a good-looking kid who was having a helluva good time in a helluva good cause.” Even the “Encyclopedia of Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender, & Queer Culture” admits Schine was “heterosexual.”

But did Cohn really attempt to get the Army to allow Schine to stay close to home? Did the Army really say no? Before he was drafted, Schine had been traveling from Washington, DC to First Army Headquarters in New York City as part of the Fort Monmouth investigation. After he was drafted, Schine was stationed at Fort Dix, NJ, thus shortening his weekend trips to NYC from more than 200 miles to less than 75 miles.



When and where did Cohn state this? What is your source?

Cohn and McCarthy publicly claimed the Army was holding Schine "hostage in an attempt to stop investigations into communists in the Army"

Yes, and the Army-McCarthy hearings under Senator Mundt concluded that this was indeed the case. As Secretary of the Army Robert Stevens admitted, if Schine “hadn't been working for McCarthy, he probably never would have been drafted.”

Briefly: In 1952, ten Signal Corps Intelligence Agency (SCIA) officials at the Pentagon, headed by Col. Jim Allen, SCIA executive officer, petitioned Congress to investigate what they charged was pro-Communist infiltration of (and disappearance of classified materials from) SCIA.

Capt. Benjamin Sheehan of G-2 (Army counterintelligence) headed a team ordered by First Army headquarters in New York to investigate “an espionage ring at Fort Monmouth,” N.J. This Army Signal Corps base was the center of activity of the Rosenberg ring, including agents Morton Sobell, Joel Barr, Alfred Sarant, Klaus Fuchs, Harry Gold and David Greenglass. The G-2 probe reported “an immensely large number of employees of questionable loyalty” at the complex.

Maj. Gen. Kirke B. Lawton, base commander of Fort Monmouth, told McCarthy staffer Jim Juliana, an ex-FBI agent, that he had recommended the suspension of 44 security suspects identified by G-2, but that the Army Loyalty and Screening Board had reversed his decisions, clearing all 44, preventing the suspension of a single suspect. Lawton said he got action only after McCarthy opened his Fort Monmouth inquest, testifying in executive session before the McCarthy subcommittee that he had gotten more results in “the last two weeks” than “the past 4 years.” For his honesty, the Army relieved Lawton of his command.

It was during these hearings that Pearson began agitating for the drafting of Schine. When McCarthy made it clear that he intended to subpoena the members of the security board that had reversed the suspensions at Fort Monmouth, the White House began circulating rumors that the whole Fort Monmouth inquiry was a sham, cooked up by McCarthy and Cohn to pressure the Army into giving Schine special treatment. Anonymous leaks to that effect appeared in the columns of liberal Washington journalists Joseph and Stewart Alsop, blood relatives of Eleanor as well as Franklin Roosevelt.

In its final report on the Army-McCarthy hearings, the Senate concluded that “the investigation at Fort Monmouth was not devised or conducted as a leverage to secure preferential treatment for G. David Schine,” but rather that Secretary Stevens and Army counsel John Adams “made efforts to terminate or influence the investigation and hearings at Fort Monmouth,” adding that Adams “made vigorous and diligent efforts when the subpoenas were issued for the Army Loyalty and Screening Board to halt this action by means of personal appeals to certain members of this committee.”

How come McCarthy never revealed who those commies were in the Army?

Did McCarthy state that there were Communists in the Army? When and where did he say that? What is your source?

The irony of Schine being "abused" by his political opposition as McCarthy pilloried his political enemies, and then having the defenders of the Army attacked by the McCarthyites makes one laugh. As if Eisenhower on one side and McCarthy on the other side somehow balances the equation of political attack and defense. If the question is the integrity of Joe versus that of Ike's Army, well, "go Black and Gold!"

 

[Mark LaRochelle]

Was Winston Churchill also the greatest asset the communists ever had?
He was also at Yalta.

At Yalta, on February 8, 1945 at 3:30 pm, Stalin and Roosevelt met privately for 30 minutes. During this meeting, they made a secret agreement (specifically excluded from the final communiqué) in which FDR ceded to Moscow rights to the main Manchurian railroad, the port of Dairen and a Soviet naval base at Port Arthur. Churchill was not informed.

FDR handed nothing to no one.

In a secret codicil to Yalta, FDR ceded eastern Poland to Stalin, essentially ratifying what British Foreign Secretary Sir Anthony Eden called the "Ribbentrop-Molotov" line—the deal Stalin had made with Hitler in the secret protocols of the Nazi-Soviet pact. Another secret agreement gave the Soviet Union three votes in the UN to one for the U.S. Yet another "secret codicil," added on March 31, would force the "repatriation" of some two million refugees in the West to the Soviet zone for slave labor or death in the Gulag.

Another 500K KIA and 1 million injuries was the low ball estimate of a war over eastern Europe with the Ruskies.
Patton was all for it.

In 1945, the US had the A-bomb; the Soviets did not. Virtually all those and casualties would have been Soviet. Patton believed that Stalin would have stood down if the US had stood firm.

 

[Mark LaRochelle]

You and every American should thank their lucky stars that the commies got China.

That's the most bloodthirsty thing I ever read. Do you think we should also celebrate the holocaust?

Can you imagine a China with TWICE it's population?

Why do you think a free China would have a larger population? Sure, 60 million people would not have been murdered, but the birth rate would have been much lower for a long time: in Communist China, the fertility rate is now 1.23 live births per woman; in Taiwan it's only 1.14; in Hong Kong 0.97.

Do you think the social changes achieved by China would have occurred in a society like ours?

If you're referring to mass murder and slave labor, then no.

 

[Mark LaRochelle]

China was the worlds biggest train wreck waiting to happen.

And yet we helped defend China from the Japanese throughout World War II.

I know YOU think WE should have backed Taiwan against the mainland.

Wait, there was a war between Taiwan and mainland China? I must have missed that.

 

[Mark LaRochelle]

Again, you fail to see WHO did not want to police eastern Europe and fight the Russians.

That man was General Dwight D. Eisenhower.

By the time Ike was in a position to set policy, the Soviets already had the A-bomb, making their occupation of Eastern Europe a fait accompli. Truman had the opportunity to liberate millions of his fellow human beings. He chose not to.

 

[Mark LaRochelle]

China was none of our business.

Even during World War II when we helped defend China from the Japanese?

 

[Mark LaRochelle]

That drunken piece of shit accused IKE of being a Commie symnpathizer.

When and where did McCarthy accuse Eisenhower of being a Communist sympathizer?

What is your source?

Let us take a long, hard look at the facts of what McCarthy did state publicly about our military leaders:
On General George Marshall " a man steeped in falsehood".
Concerning General and President Dwight D. Eisenhower let us look at the facts:
When McCarthy, with nothing more than innuendo and hearsay, set out to expose communists in the Army Eisenhower decided this was enough. Eisenhower instructed his staff to present facts that McCarthy, through Roy Cohn, had petitioned the Army to award preferential treatment to an assistant, David Schine. Finding himself on the defensive, McCarthy demanded and threatened to subpoena notes of meetings between Eisenhower and the Army attempting to bolster his "communists in the Army" fraud. Eisenhonwer established presidential precedent and invoked executive privilege in refusing to turn over the notes. McCarthy was advised by Schine and Cohn to use that as an admission that Eisenhower was hiding his sympathies with the communists in the Army because Ike claimed matters of national security might be breached if administration officials were forced to testify under oath. Ike robbed McCarthy the oppurtunity to contiunue his inquisition. After that, the Army hearings conducted by McCarthy degenerated into the fraud side show they really were.
In November 1953 McCarthy attacked Eisenhower and his administration on national television. He went off on an undisciplined slobbering tirade stating the administration was not acting to eliminate subversives from the administration and the government and that "America has been reduced to a state of whining and whimpering appeasement".
Off to a players' reunuion. Will be back later with more.

You didn't post when and where McCarthy accused Ike of being a Communist sympathizer, nor did you post your source. Are you retracting that charge?

 

[Mark LaRochelle]

McCarthy ... called the CIA "a sinkhole of communists".

When and where did McCarthy call the CIA "a sinkhole of communists"? What is your source?

Unless I'm mistaken, your quote is not of McCarthy, but of Evan Thomas.

Mark, do you deny that McCarthy claimed that senior members of founding members of the CIA were security risks? Are you denying that Cord Meyer of Operation Mockingbird was one of these and McCarthy told Richard Helms, deputy of Office of Policy Coordination (OPC) that McCarthy had accused Meyer to him of being a communist and that that the "CIA is a sinkhole of communists" and that he intended to root out a hundred of them at CIA? Mark, are you claiming that Helms is a liar and that the FBI did not refuse to give Meyer a security clearance? Are you claiming that the FBI had ANY evidence, and if they did, how come they never offered any? Mark, are you claiming that Allan Dulles, the first and longest sitting head of the CIA, a man that stood up to the FBI and McCarthy by denying FBI interrogation of Meyer, was wrong and was covering for communitsts in the CIA? Are you claiming that Frank Wisener, the head of OSS in eastern Europe in WWII and the head of Directorate of Plans in CIA in the 50s would make up that he also was told that by FBI was told by McCarthy that there were over 100 communists in CIA?
Are you aware that Wisener also stood up to McCarthy and publicly told him that the FBI would not be allowed to interrogate Meyer.

All of the above is documented by Dulles, Meyer and Wisener. What about any of their documented claims is untrue and what evidence do you offer to refute their documented accounts?

You did not post when and where McCarthy called the CIA "a sinkhole of communists," nor did you post your source. Are you retracting that charge?

 

[Mark LaRochelle]

"Questionable loyalty" What bull shit!
Accusations were made up. This entire BS was made up.

Are you alleging that Col. Allen and his fellow SCIA officers made false charges, or that Capt. Sheehan and his G-2 team falsified their report on Fort Monmouth? These are serious charges. What is your evidence?

Name ONE employee that a G-2 probe named that had ANY EVIDENCE.

Well, it's hard to pick just one, but let's take Aaron Coleman. He had been a City College of New York classmate of Julius Rosenberg, Morton Sobell, etc. Ex-Communist CCNY alum Nathan Sussman testified that Coleman had been a fellow member there of the Young Communist League, along with Rosenberg et al. Rosenberg testified that he had been in contact with Coleman at Fort Monmouth. In 1946, security agents searched his rooms, finding more than 40 official papers, some highly confidential. Coleman's roommate at the time, Jack Okun, would be suspended from Fort Monmouth on security grounds in 1949. Any one of these associations should have rendered Coleman ineligible for employment at a Signals Corps base under the Truman loyalty order of 1947. Yet he was still working at Fort Monmouth when the McCarthy inquiry began in 1953.

Accordingly, you know, I know, Stevie Wonder can see Fort Monmouth was a crock of shit.

If you mean that security there was dangerously lax, you are correct.

Did McCarthy believe there were communists in the Army or did he not believe it? If he didn't then why all the allegations that you cut and pasted?

McCarthy heard serious allegations from Allen of SCIA, Sheehan of G-2, Lawton, base commander at Fort Monmouth, and Andrew Reid, chief of security there. He was in the process of investigating those allegations (seeking subpoenas of the security review board members) when the Army accused him of cooking up the whole Fort Monmouth inquiry as a way of pressuring it to grant favored treatment to Schine -- thus pre-empting the Fort Monmouth investigation with the Army-McCarthy hearings, investigating McCarthy himself.

I notice that you did not post when and where Cohn stated "I will wreck the Army," nor when and where McCarthy asserted the presence of Communists in the Army; nor did you post your sources. Are you retracting these charges?

 

[Gadawg73]

"Questionable loyalty" What bull shit!
Accusations were made up. This entire BS was made up.

Are you alleging that Col. Allen and his fellow SCIA officers made false charges, or that Capt. Sheehan and his G-2 team falsified their report on Fort Monmouth? These are serious charges. What is your evidence?

Name ONE employee that a G-2 probe named that had ANY EVIDENCE.

Well, it's hard to pick just one, but let's take Aaron Coleman. He had been a City College of New York classmate of Julius Rosenberg, Morton Sobell, etc. Ex-Communist CCNY alum Nathan Sussman testified that Coleman had been a fellow member there of the Young Communist League, along with Rosenberg et al. Rosenberg testified that he had been in contact with Coleman at Fort Monmouth. In 1946, security agents searched his rooms, finding more than 40 official papers, some highly confidential. Coleman's roommate at the time, Jack Okun, would be suspended from Fort Monmouth on security grounds in 1949. Any one of these associations should have rendered Coleman ineligible for employment at a Signals Corps base under the Truman loyalty order of 1947. Yet he was still working at Fort Monmouth when the McCarthy inquiry began in 1953.

Accordingly, you know, I know, Stevie Wonder can see Fort Monmouth was a crock of shit.

If you mean that security there was dangerously lax, you are correct.

Did McCarthy believe there were communists in the Army or did he not believe it? If he didn't then why all the allegations that you cut and pasted?

McCarthy heard serious allegations from Allen of SCIA, Sheehan of G-2, Lawton, base commander at Fort Monmouth, and Andrew Reid, chief of security there. He was in the process of investigating those allegations (seeking subpoenas of the security review board members) when the Army accused him of cooking up the whole Fort Monmouth inquiry as a way of pressuring it to grant favored treatment to Schine -- thus pre-empting the Fort Monmouth investigation with the Army-McCarthy hearings, investigating McCarthy himself.

I notice that you did not post when and where Cohn stated "I will wreck the Army," nor when and where McCarthy asserted the presence of Communists in the Army; nor did you post your sources. Are you retracting these charges?

McCarthy told his shrink, hairdresser and bartender on December 19, 1953.

Under your thesis McCarthy had "serious allegations" yet never "asserted the presence of Communists in the Army"?
They must not have been very serious or outright bogus, which you know they were, if McCarthy never "asserted the presence of Communists in the Army.

The shrink was killed by a mysterious drive by shooting. The FBI is investigating the killings of Tupac Shakur and The Notorious B. I. G. as possibly being the same shooter.
The hairdresser was the grand neice of Mati Hari. After her tips were not up to par she turned to communism because beards and haircuts were the Bloshevik style thus increasing her business 33% off the bat.
The bartender was shot on sight in Moscow in a Stolichnaya smuggling deal gone bad.

 

[editec]

In 1945, the US had the A-bomb; the Soviets did not. Virtually all those and casualties would have been Soviet. Patton believed that Stalin would have stood down if the US had stood firm.

Not really.

The USA had enough fissionable material for TWO bombs in 1945.

You're talking outcha ass, sport.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Again, you fail to see WHO did not want to police eastern Europe and fight the Russians.

That man was General Dwight D. Eisenhower.

By the time Ike was in a position to set policy, the Soviets already had the A-bomb, making their occupation of Eastern Europe a fait accompli. Truman had the opportunity to liberate millions of his fellow human beings. He chose not to.

You mean go to war with the Soviets while we were still engaged with Japan, did not know if our atomic bombs were going to work, with no training divisions left back in the states, with Germany and France and eastern Europe ravaged by war. Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the time.

Truman and Eisenhower and Marshall decided otherwise. Your comment is nothing more, Mark, than a jumped-up internet opinion. We are all entitled to them, but they mean nothing in and of themselves. Your evidence is not compelling. Don't ask us to build your case. You have to do it, then we get to critique it.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Again, you fail to see WHO did not want to police eastern Europe and fight the Russians.

That man was General Dwight D. Eisenhower.

By the time Ike was in a position to set policy, the Soviets already had the A-bomb, making their occupation of Eastern Europe a fait accompli. Truman had the opportunity to liberate millions of his fellow human beings. He chose not to.

You mean go to war with the Soviets while we were still engaged with Japan, did not know if our atomic bombs were going to work, with no training divisions left back in the states, with Germany and France and eastern Europe ravaged by war. Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the time.

Truman and Eisenhower and Marshall decided otherwise. Your comment is nothing more, Mark, than a jumped-up internet opinion. We are all entitled to them, but they mean nothing in and of themselves. Your evidence is not compelling. Don't ask us to build your case. You have to do it, then we get to critique it.

As we discussed in the "Patton" thread, the reason the General felt WWII was a strategic failure for the US was because he believed all that was accomplished for civilization east of Berlin was to exchange one sociopathic mass murderer for another. History bears him out.

We now learn that FDR let "Uncle Joe" keep all the real estate because he was advised to do so by genuine Communist spies.

That's the point, Jake. You're absurd notion that Third Shock Army would have been dancing in Paris 10 weeks after start of hostilities with the USA lies in a smoldering wreck like a JS-III without air cover.