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"Questionable loyalty" What bull shit!
Accusations were made up. This entire BS was made up.
Are you alleging that Col. Allen and his fellow SCIA officers made false charges, or that Capt. Sheehan and his G-2 team falsified their report on Fort Monmouth? These are serious charges. What is your evidence?
Well, it's hard to pick just one, but let's take Aaron Coleman. He had been a City College of New York classmate of Julius Rosenberg, Morton Sobell, etc. Ex-Communist CCNY alum Nathan Sussman testified that Coleman had been a fellow member there of the Young Communist League, along with Rosenberg et al. Rosenberg testified that he had been in contact with Coleman at Fort Monmouth. In 1946, security agents searched his rooms, finding more than 40 official papers, some highly confidential. Coleman's roommate at the time, Jack Okun, would be suspended from Fort Monmouth on security grounds in 1949. Any one of these associations should have rendered Coleman ineligible for employment at a Signals Corps base under the Truman loyalty order of 1947. Yet he was still working at Fort Monmouth when the McCarthy inquiry began in 1953.
If you mean that security there was dangerously lax, you are correct.
Did McCarthy believe there were communists in the Army or did he not believe it? If he didn't then why all the allegations that you cut and pasted?
McCarthy heard serious allegations from Allen of SCIA, Sheehan of G-2, Lawton, base commander at Fort Monmouth, and Andrew Reid, chief of security there. He was in the process of investigating those allegations (seeking subpoenas of the security review board members) when the Army accused him of cooking up the whole Fort Monmouth inquiry as a way of pressuring it to grant favored treatment to Schine -- thus pre-empting the Fort Monmouth investigation with the Army-McCarthy hearings, investigating McCarthy himself.
I notice that you did not post when and where Cohn stated "I will wreck the Army," nor when and where McCarthy asserted the presence of Communists in the Army; nor did you post your sources. Are you retracting these charges?
McCarthy told his shrink, hairdresser and bartender on December 19, 1953.
Under your thesis McCarthy had "serious allegations" yet never "asserted the presence of Communists in the Army"?
They must not have been very serious or outright bogus, which you know they were, if McCarthy never "asserted the presence of Communists in the Army.
The shrink was killed by a mysterious drive by shooting. The FBI is investigating the killings of Tupac Shakur and The Notorious B. I. G. as possibly being the same shooter.
The hairdresser was the grand neice of Mati Hari. After her tips were not up to par she turned to communism because beards and haircuts were the Bloshevik style thus increasing her business 33% off the bat.
The bartender was shot on sight in Moscow in a Stolichnaya smuggling deal gone bad.
By the time Ike was in a position to set policy, the Soviets already had the A-bomb, making their occupation of Eastern Europe a fait accompli. Truman had the opportunity to liberate millions of his fellow human beings. He chose not to.
You mean go to war with the Soviets while we were still engaged with Japan, did not know if our atomic bombs were going to work, with no training divisions left back in the states, with Germany and France and eastern Europe ravaged by war. Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the time.
Truman and Eisenhower and Marshall decided otherwise. Your comment is nothing more, Mark, than a jumped-up internet opinion. We are all entitled to them, but they mean nothing in and of themselves. Your evidence is not compelling. Don't ask us to build your case. You have to do it, then we get to critique it.
As we discussed in the "Patton" thread, the reason the General felt WWII was a strategic failure for the US was because he believed all that was accomplished for civilization east of Berlin was to exchange one sociopathic mass murderer for another. History bears him out.
We now learn that FDR let "Uncle Joe" keep all the real estate because he was advised to do so by genuine Communist spies.
That's the point, Jake. You're absurd notion that Third Shock Army would have been dancing in Paris 10 weeks after start of hostilities with the USA lies in a smoldering wreck like a JS-III without air cover.
You mean go to war with the Soviets while we were still engaged with Japan, did not know if our atomic bombs were going to work, with no training divisions left back in the states, with Germany and France and eastern Europe ravaged by war. Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the time.
Truman and Eisenhower and Marshall decided otherwise. Your comment is nothing more, Mark, than a jumped-up internet opinion. We are all entitled to them, but they mean nothing in and of themselves. Your evidence is not compelling. Don't ask us to build your case. You have to do it, then we get to critique it.
As we discussed in the "Patton" thread, the reason the General felt WWII was a strategic failure for the US was because he believed all that was accomplished for civilization east of Berlin was to exchange one sociopathic mass murderer for another. History bears him out.
We now learn that FDR let "Uncle Joe" keep all the real estate because he was advised to do so by genuine Communist spies.
That's the point, Jake. You're absurd notion that Third Shock Army would have been dancing in Paris 10 weeks after start of hostilities with the USA lies in a smoldering wreck like a JS-III without air cover.
We had a term other than "Monday morning QB" in my day.
When did Stalin ever occupy Great Britain, West Berlin, France, Albania, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Greece, Italy, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Libya, Algeria or Tunisia Frank?
Frank would have us believe that FDR was never advised by anyone in the military on foreign affairs and that Patton was right and all of the other military leaders were socialists supporting Uncle Joe.
But I love fiction as it is always more interesting than FACT.
You mean go to war with the Soviets while we were still engaged with Japan, did not know if our atomic bombs were going to work, with no training divisions left back in the states, with Germany and France and eastern Europe ravaged by war. Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the time.
Truman and Eisenhower and Marshall decided otherwise. Your comment is nothing more, Mark, than a jumped-up internet opinion. We are all entitled to them, but they mean nothing in and of themselves. Your evidence is not compelling. Don't ask us to build your case. You have to do it, then we get to critique it.
As we discussed in the "Patton" thread, the reason the General felt WWII was a strategic failure for the US was because he believed all that was accomplished for civilization east of Berlin was to exchange one sociopathic mass murderer for another. History bears him out.
We now learn that FDR let "Uncle Joe" keep all the real estate because he was advised to do so by genuine Communist spies.
That's the point, Jake. You're absurd notion that Third Shock Army would have been dancing in Paris 10 weeks after start of hostilities with the USA lies in a smoldering wreck like a JS-III without air cover.
We had a term other than "Monday morning QB" in my day.
When did Stalin ever occupy Great Britain, West Berlin, France, Albania, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Greece, Italy, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Libya, Algeria or Tunisia Frank?
Frank would have us believe that FDR was never advised by anyone in the military on foreign affairs and that Patton was right and all of the other military leaders were socialists supporting Uncle Joe.
But I love fiction as it is always more interesting than FACT.
As we discussed in the "Patton" thread, the reason the General felt WWII was a strategic failure for the US was because he believed all that was accomplished for civilization east of Berlin was to exchange one sociopathic mass murderer for another. History bears him out.
We now learn that FDR let "Uncle Joe" keep all the real estate because he was advised to do so by genuine Communist spies.
That's the point, Jake. You're absurd notion that Third Shock Army would have been dancing in Paris 10 weeks after start of hostilities with the USA lies in a smoldering wreck like a JS-III without air cover.
We had a term other than "Monday morning QB" in my day.
When did Stalin ever occupy Great Britain, West Berlin, France, Albania, Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Greece, Italy, Monaco, Netherlands, Norway, Libya, Algeria or Tunisia Frank?
Frank would have us believe that FDR was never advised by anyone in the military on foreign affairs and that Patton was right and all of the other military leaders were socialists supporting Uncle Joe.
But I love fiction as it is always more interesting than FACT.
Yes. CrusaderFrank = fiction. Frank should go talk to Tom Clancy.
The far wackright will not stay in reality.
Under your thesis McCarthy had "serious allegations" yet never "asserted the presence of Communists in the Army"?
They must not have been very serious or outright bogus, which you know they were, if McCarthy never "asserted the presence of Communists in the Army.
Did McCarthy state that there were Communists in the Army? When and where did he say that? What is your source?
The USA had enough fissionable material for TWO bombs in 1945.
You mean go to war with the Soviets while we were still engaged with Japan, did not know if our atomic bombs were going to work, with no training divisions left back in the states, with Germany and France and eastern Europe ravaged by war.
Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the time.
Truman and Eisenhower and Marshall decided otherwise. Your comment is nothing more, Mark, than a jumped-up internet opinion.
Your evidence is not compelling.
Don't ask us to build your case.
In March 1952, the State Department Gen Snow got his chance to expose McCarthy for the liar that the claimed McCarthy was. He was called to the Senate committee to look into the charges that State was beyond lax at weeding out Communist spies.
Senator McCarren challenged Gen Snow directly on point as follows,
"You made a blanket statement and say what Senator McCarthy says from beginning to end is false...you blanketed everything that he said as false. Now, you will prove to us that they are false."
As you might expect, but didn't know until now, State Department's Gen Snow answered like Jake Starkey quoting contradictory footnotes in "Blacklisted"
If McCarthy was a liar, if he was making up stuff out of whole cloth about Communist Spies at State, Gen Snow could have destroyed McCarthy right then and there with facts. But he didn't and couldn't.
Did you know that?
In March 1952, the State Department Gen Snow got his chance to expose McCarthy for the liar that the claimed McCarthy was. He was called to the Senate committee to look into the charges that State was beyond lax at weeding out Communist spies.
Senator McCarren challenged Gen Snow directly on point as follows,
"You made a blanket statement and say what Senator McCarthy says from beginning to end is false...you blanketed everything that he said as false. Now, you will prove to us that they are false."
As you might expect, but didn't know until now, State Department's Gen Snow answered like Jake Starkey quoting contradictory footnotes in "Blacklisted"
If McCarthy was a liar, if he was making up stuff out of whole cloth about Communist Spies at State, Gen Snow could have destroyed McCarthy right then and there with facts. But he didn't and couldn't.
Did you know that?
You mean go to war with the Soviets while we were still engaged with Japan, did not know if our atomic bombs were going to work, with no training divisions left back in the states, with Germany and France and eastern Europe ravaged by war.
No, I don't mean that. I mean after the demonstrations at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the Soviets became aware of what the A-bomb could do. The U.S. could have told the Soviets to honor their agreement regarding the independence of Eastern Europe, or face the Enola Gay over Moscow.
Your opinion does not reflect the reality of the time.
Truman and Eisenhower and Marshall decided otherwise. Your comment is nothing more, Mark, than a jumped-up internet opinion.
I didn't intend to express an opinion. I apologize if my post came across that way. I don't mean to opine that Truman should have threatened to use his nuclear leverage to force Stalin back; I mean only that (in fact) it was an option he had that Ike did not, and that he chose not to use it.
Your evidence is not compelling.
What evidence?
Don't ask us to build your case.
What case?
In March 1952, the State Department Gen Snow got his chance to expose McCarthy for the liar that the claimed McCarthy was. He was called to the Senate committee to look into the charges that State was beyond lax at weeding out Communist spies.
Senator McCarren challenged Gen Snow directly on point as follows,
"You made a blanket statement and say what Senator McCarthy says from beginning to end is false...you blanketed everything that he said as false. Now, you will prove to us that they are false."
As you might expect, but didn't know until now, State Department's Gen Snow answered like Jake Starkey quoting contradictory footnotes in "Blacklisted"
If McCarthy was a liar, if he was making up stuff out of whole cloth about Communist Spies at State, Gen Snow could have destroyed McCarthy right then and there with facts. But he didn't and couldn't.
Did you know that?
When I wrote a ferocious defense of Sen. Joe McCarthy in Treason: Liberal Treachery From the Cold War to the War on Terrorism, liberals chose not to argue with me. Instead they posted a scrolling series of reasons not to read my book, such as that I wear short skirts, date boys, and that Treason was not a scholarly tome.
After printing rabidly venomous accounts of McCarthy for half a century based on zero research, liberals would only accept research presenting an alternative view of McCarthy that included, as the Los Angeles Times put it, at least the "pretense of scholarly throat-clearing and objectivity."
This week, they got it. The great M. Stanton Evans has finally released Blacklisted by History: The Untold Story of Senator Joe McCarthy and His Fight Against America's Enemies. Based on a lifetime's work, including nearly a decade of thoroughgoing research, stores of original research and never-before-seen government files, this 672-page book ends the argument on Joe McCarthy. Look for it hidden behind stacks of Bill Clinton's latest self-serving book at a bookstore near you.
Evans' book is such a tour de force that liberals are already preparing a "yesterday's news" defense -- as if they had long ago admitted the truth about McCarthy. Yes, and they fought shoulder to shoulder with Ronald Reagan to bring down the Evil Empire. Thus, Publishers Weekly preposterously claims that "the history Evans relates is already largely known, if not fully accepted." Somebody better tell George Clooney.
The McCarthy period is the Rosetta stone of all liberal lies. It is the textbook on how they rewrite history -- the sound chamber of liberal denunciations, their phony victimhood as they demean and oppress their enemies, their false imputation of dishonesty to their opponents, their legalization of every policy dispute, their ability to engage in lock-step shouting campaigns, and the black motives concealed by their endless cacophony.
The true story of Joe McCarthy, told in meticulous, irrefutable detail in Blacklisted by History, is that from 1938 to 1946, the Democratic Party acquiesced in a monstrous conspiracy being run through the State Department, the military establishment, and even the White House to advance the Soviet cause within the U.S. government.
In the face of the Democrats' absolute refusal to admit to their fecklessness, fatuity and recklessness in allowing known Soviet spies to penetrate the deepest levels of government, McCarthy demanded an accounting.
Even if one concedes to on-the-one-hand-on-the-other-hand whiners like Ronald Radosh that Truman's Secretary of State Dean Acheson didn't like communism, his record is what it was. And that record was to treat Soviet spies like members of the Hasty Pudding Club.
Rather than own up to their moral blindness to Soviet espionage, Democrats fired up the liberal slander machine, which would be deployed again and again over the next half century to the present day. In hiding their own perfidy, liberals were guilty of every sin they lyingly imputed to McCarthy. There were no "McCarthyites" until liberals came along.
Blacklisted by History proves that every conventional belief about McCarthy is wrong, including:
-- That he lied about his war service: He was a tailgunner in World War II;
-- That he was a drunk: He would generally nurse a single drink all night;
-- That he made the whole thing up: He produced loads of Soviet spies in government jobs;
-- That he just did it for political gain: He understood perfectly the godless evil of communism.
Ironically, for all of their love of conspiracy theories -- the rigging of the 2000 election, vote suppression in Ohio in 2004, 9/11 being an inside job, oil companies covering up miracle technology that would allow cars to run on dirt, Britney Spears' career, etc., etc. -- when presented with an actual conspiracy of Soviet spies infiltrating the U.S. government, they laughed it off like world-weary skeptics and dedicated themselves to slandering Joe McCarthy.
Then as now, liberals protect themselves from detection with wild calumnies against anybody who opposes them. They have no interest in -- or aptitude for -- persuasion. Their goal is to anathematize their enemies. Blacklisted by History removes the curse from one of the greatest patriots in American history.
You have no case.
unAmerican behavior in his search for communists and whatnots
what behavior of McCarthy's are you referring to as "unAmerican"?
A comment about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. One, they were our last atomic weapons until the next year in the arsenal.
Two, the civilized nations of the world, including our citizens, would never have countenanced a war on our ally then.
I don't mean to opine that Truman should have threatened to use his nuclear leverage to force Stalin back; I mean only that (in fact) it was an option he had that Ike did not, and that he chose not to use it.
General Snow was Chairman of The Loyalty-Security Board from 1947-1952. Snow stated that the Security Division at State passed on information on security questions and the FBI passed on information on loyalty exclusively.
Snow gave a report to the Secretary Jan 8, 1953 about McCarthy's allegations giving a statistical breakdown of McCarthy's allegations. McCarthy NEVER came to Snow or the Loyalty-Security committee, NOT ONCE, to discuss ANY report or ANY information.
In one case McCarthy made a public statement that a State Department employee was associating with a Communist, General Snow went immediately to McCarthy's office and inquired about the name of the Communist that employee was associating with. McCarthy told him he had that name on a piece of paper and that the paper had been lost.
"We never received any assistance from McCarthy whatsoever, except the names of 61 alleged communists in the State Departmend, whose files were made available to a select committee chaired by Millard Tydings-Foreign Relations Committee. That Committee had an oppurtunity to read all 61 cases. The Committee gave the State Department a clean bill of health on allof the files"
Snow made 3 speeches in 1951 "I accused McCarthy of making false statements about matters he knew were false".
General Conrad E. Snow knew McCarthy was a liar and told him that to his face.
Richard D. McKinzie interview with General Snow July 2, 1973
You have been a slacker on your reading Frank.
General Snow was Chairman of The Loyalty-Security Board from 1947-1952. Snow stated that the Security Division at State passed on information on security questions and the FBI passed on information on loyalty exclusively.
Snow gave a report to the Secretary Jan 8, 1953 about McCarthy's allegations giving a statistical breakdown of McCarthy's allegations. McCarthy NEVER came to Snow or the Loyalty-Security committee, NOT ONCE, to discuss ANY report or ANY information.
In one case McCarthy made a public statement that a State Department employee was associating with a Communist, General Snow went immediately to McCarthy's office and inquired about the name of the Communist that employee was associating with. McCarthy told him he had that name on a piece of paper and that the paper had been lost.
"We never received any assistance from McCarthy whatsoever, except the names of 61 alleged communists in the State Departmend, whose files were made available to a select committee chaired by Millard Tydings-Foreign Relations Committee. That Committee had an oppurtunity to read all 61 cases. The Committee gave the State Department a clean bill of health on allof the files"
Snow made 3 speeches in 1951 "I accused McCarthy of making false statements about matters he knew were false".
General Conrad E. Snow knew McCarthy was a liar and told him that to his face.
Richard D. McKinzie interview with General Snow July 2, 1973
the names of 61 alleged communists in the State Departmend
The Committee gave the State Department a clean bill of health on allof the files
That would have been news to Churchill, FDR, Marshall, Truman, etc.,
Thank you for substantiating my point
You're absolutely right
Your discussion after that date does not matter, is not germane to whether the USA should have gone to war in the summer or fall of 1945.
I don't mean to opine that Truman should have threatened to use his nuclear leverage to force Stalin back; I mean only that (in fact) it was an option he had that Ike did not, and that he chose not to use it.
the window of opportunity for action didn't close in 1945, but extended through 1949, when the Soviets finally broke the US nuclear monopoly. During this period, the U.S. constructed many A-bombs; the Soviets had none.
General Snow was Chairman of The Loyalty-Security Board from 1947-1952. Snow stated that the Security Division at State passed on information on security questions and the FBI passed on information on loyalty exclusively.
Snow gave a report to the Secretary Jan 8, 1953 about McCarthy's allegations giving a statistical breakdown of McCarthy's allegations. McCarthy NEVER came to Snow or the Loyalty-Security committee, NOT ONCE, to discuss ANY report or ANY information.
In one case McCarthy made a public statement that a State Department employee was associating with a Communist, General Snow went immediately to McCarthy's office and inquired about the name of the Communist that employee was associating with. McCarthy told him he had that name on a piece of paper and that the paper had been lost.
"We never received any assistance from McCarthy whatsoever, except the names of 61 alleged communists in the State Departmend, whose files were made available to a select committee chaired by Millard Tydings-Foreign Relations Committee. That Committee had an oppurtunity to read all 61 cases. The Committee gave the State Department a clean bill of health on allof the files"
Snow made 3 speeches in 1951 "I accused McCarthy of making false statements about matters he knew were false".
General Conrad E. Snow knew McCarthy was a liar and told him that to his face.
Richard D. McKinzie interview with General Snow July 2, 1973
You have been a slacker on your reading Frank.
Excellent post. Where can the original source be found?
