Sen Joe McCarthy: American Patriot and Hero

[CrusaderFrank]

Hiss wrote the Yalta treaty.
But it wasn't FDR that provided the details. His ass was almost dead in Yalta. Again, you fail to see WHO did not want to police eastern Europe and fight the Russians.

That man was General Dwight D. Eisenhower, a leader that you claim was unqualified to make decisions and you know more today about what should have been done because someone wrote a book and told you so.
Patton was a great motivator and field strategist at the expense of casualties. Policy wise he was a fool and loud mouth.
Patton during the end of the European war in 1944: "Hell, why do we care what these God damn Russians think? We are going to have to fight them sooner or later, within the next generation. Why don't we do it now with our Army still intact and the damn Russians can have their hind end kicked back to Russia in 3 months? We can do it easily with the help of the German troops we have if we just arm them and take them with us. They hate the bastards." Eisenhower had no choice. He knew Patton's mouth was out of control and Ike would never expose American troops to 500,000 KIA fighting the Russians.
Patton's combat skills were second to none. However, that often does not translate to policy.

The movie Patton really gives people the incorrect idea about the man, but at least watched the movie and learned that much about him.

If Patton had Omar Bradly's job, the US would have been in Berlin, Prague and Vienna months ahead of the Russians.

He wrote in his diary in August 44 that letting the Germans slip out of Falaise was one of the worst decisions in human history

He predicted Eisenhower would run for President.

He knew letting the Russians keep Eastern Europe was a strategic failure.

The movie was great Frank as I love George C. Scott but I have read Wesley Clarks and Steven Zaloga's autobiography. I also have read the 850 page Eisenhower 1943-1945 at War by David Eisenhower. I have a vast WWII book collection as that is one of my hobbies.
So we demand in words for Russia to leave eastern Europe and Stalin and his 90 intact divisions armed to the teeth say "yes sir, we will leave immediately".
Frank believes that would have worked.
Facts are that the Russians took 90K KIA and 250K wounded in 4 months taking Berlin. Germany took 5.5 million KIA in WWII, mostly to the Russians. Russia took 9 million KIA and how many more would they have taken in a fight with us? Us with NO allies, doing it alone.
Every military General anywhere during WWII knew that if Patton was in charge there would be no cooperation between the allies.
You do know that the English and the Russians were our allies Frank and many times they took as much or more territory than we did.
Frank was for Patton adding another 150K KIA Americans to take Berlin, Prague and Vienna. No military leader anywhere has stated that it would have worked but even if it was attempted the 150K KIA would have happened.
No one let the Russians "keep eastern Europe" Frank.
The Russians TOOK eastern Europe. Spoils of war is horrible but reality is hard for ideologues to accept. We knew in 1941 what the deal would be.

You say you have books and I 'll take your word at it, but reading does not appear high up on your to do list.

I said Patton would have ended the war months earlier and gotten to Berlin, Prague and Vienna ahead of the Russians. Do you want me to repeat that again? How many more times must I post it before you get it?

FDR let politics run the war, he let Stalin take Berlin Prague and Vienna.

Patton, the Germans and most of the civilized world would rather have had the US and Brits control that real estate, but not FDR and his Communist spies at State.

Again, start a Patton thread if you must

 

[Gadawg73]

The movie Patton really gives people the incorrect idea about the man, but at least watched the movie and learned that much about him.

If Patton had Omar Bradly's job, the US would have been in Berlin, Prague and Vienna months ahead of the Russians.

He wrote in his diary in August 44 that letting the Germans slip out of Falaise was one of the worst decisions in human history

He predicted Eisenhower would run for President.

He knew letting the Russians keep Eastern Europe was a strategic failure.

The movie was great Frank as I love George C. Scott but I have read Wesley Clarks and Steven Zaloga's autobiography. I also have read the 850 page Eisenhower 1943-1945 at War by David Eisenhower. I have a vast WWII book collection as that is one of my hobbies.
So we demand in words for Russia to leave eastern Europe and Stalin and his 90 intact divisions armed to the teeth say "yes sir, we will leave immediately".
Frank believes that would have worked.
Facts are that the Russians took 90K KIA and 250K wounded in 4 months taking Berlin. Germany took 5.5 million KIA in WWII, mostly to the Russians. Russia took 9 million KIA and how many more would they have taken in a fight with us? Us with NO allies, doing it alone.
Every military General anywhere during WWII knew that if Patton was in charge there would be no cooperation between the allies.
You do know that the English and the Russians were our allies Frank and many times they took as much or more territory than we did.
Frank was for Patton adding another 150K KIA Americans to take Berlin, Prague and Vienna. No military leader anywhere has stated that it would have worked but even if it was attempted the 150K KIA would have happened.
No one let the Russians "keep eastern Europe" Frank.
The Russians TOOK eastern Europe. Spoils of war is horrible but reality is hard for ideologues to accept. We knew in 1941 what the deal would be.

You say you have books and I 'll take your word at it, but reading does not appear high up on your to do list.

I said Patton would have ended the war months earlier and gotten to Berlin, Prague and Vienna ahead of the Russians. Do you want me to repeat that again? How many more times must I post it before you get it?

FDR let politics run the war, he let Stalin take Berlin Prague and Vienna.

Patton, the Germans and most of the civilized world would rather have had the US and Brits control that real estate, but not FDR and his Communist spies at State.

Again, start a Patton thread if you must

Conflict and Crisis by Robert Donovan is also good. My father was a member of the Truman Scholarship Review Committee and I have an autographed copy of this book.
Patton would have had any chance of ending the war any sooner. He had far, far less equipment and men than the Russians and was outrunning his supplies and fuel just to make ground.
Take a good look at the Bulge KIA and triple that to do what you state.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Is the full extent of the damage inflicted by Communist spies at US State finally starting to set in?

They succeeded in handing China to Mao and Eastern Europe to Stalin.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The movie was great Frank as I love George C. Scott but I have read Wesley Clarks and Steven Zaloga's autobiography. I also have read the 850 page Eisenhower 1943-1945 at War by David Eisenhower. I have a vast WWII book collection as that is one of my hobbies.
So we demand in words for Russia to leave eastern Europe and Stalin and his 90 intact divisions armed to the teeth say "yes sir, we will leave immediately".
Frank believes that would have worked.
Facts are that the Russians took 90K KIA and 250K wounded in 4 months taking Berlin. Germany took 5.5 million KIA in WWII, mostly to the Russians. Russia took 9 million KIA and how many more would they have taken in a fight with us? Us with NO allies, doing it alone.
Every military General anywhere during WWII knew that if Patton was in charge there would be no cooperation between the allies.
You do know that the English and the Russians were our allies Frank and many times they took as much or more territory than we did.
Frank was for Patton adding another 150K KIA Americans to take Berlin, Prague and Vienna. No military leader anywhere has stated that it would have worked but even if it was attempted the 150K KIA would have happened.
No one let the Russians "keep eastern Europe" Frank.
The Russians TOOK eastern Europe. Spoils of war is horrible but reality is hard for ideologues to accept. We knew in 1941 what the deal would be.

You say you have books and I 'll take your word at it, but reading does not appear high up on your to do list.

I said Patton would have ended the war months earlier and gotten to Berlin, Prague and Vienna ahead of the Russians. Do you want me to repeat that again? How many more times must I post it before you get it?

FDR let politics run the war, he let Stalin take Berlin Prague and Vienna.

Patton, the Germans and most of the civilized world would rather have had the US and Brits control that real estate, but not FDR and his Communist spies at State.

Again, start a Patton thread if you must

Conflict and Crisis by Robert Donovan is also good. My father was a member of the Truman Scholarship Review Committee and I have an autographed copy of this book.
Patton would have had any chance of ending the war any sooner. He had far, far less equipment and men than the Russians and was outrunning his supplies and fuel just to make ground.
Take a good look at the Bulge KIA and triple that to do what you state.

Third time I'm mentioning it.

Had it been Patton's call the gap would have been closed and the vast majority of Germans resistance in the west would have gone with it.

I know you hate reading, maybe watch the videos?

Falaise pocket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Mark LaRochelle]

That drunken piece of shit accused IKE of being a Commie symnpathizer.

When and where did McCarthy accuse Eisenhower of being a Communist sympathizer?

What is your source?

 

[Gadawg73]

You say you have books and I 'll take your word at it, but reading does not appear high up on your to do list.

I said Patton would have ended the war months earlier and gotten to Berlin, Prague and Vienna ahead of the Russians. Do you want me to repeat that again? How many more times must I post it before you get it?

FDR let politics run the war, he let Stalin take Berlin Prague and Vienna.

Patton, the Germans and most of the civilized world would rather have had the US and Brits control that real estate, but not FDR and his Communist spies at State.

Again, start a Patton thread if you must

Conflict and Crisis by Robert Donovan is also good. My father was a member of the Truman Scholarship Review Committee and I have an autographed copy of this book.
Patton would have had any chance of ending the war any sooner. He had far, far less equipment and men than the Russians and was outrunning his supplies and fuel just to make ground.
Take a good look at the Bulge KIA and triple that to do what you state.

Third time I'm mentioning it.

Had it been Patton's call the gap would have been closed and the vast majority of Germans resistance in the west would have gone with it.

I know you hate reading, maybe watch the videos?

Falaise pocket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You need to take a second look at your own link Frank. It doesn't make your point there bub.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Conflict and Crisis by Robert Donovan is also good. My father was a member of the Truman Scholarship Review Committee and I have an autographed copy of this book.
Patton would have had any chance of ending the war any sooner. He had far, far less equipment and men than the Russians and was outrunning his supplies and fuel just to make ground.
Take a good look at the Bulge KIA and triple that to do what you state.

Third time I'm mentioning it.

Had it been Patton's call the gap would have been closed and the vast majority of Germans resistance in the west would have gone with it.

I know you hate reading, maybe watch the videos?

Falaise pocket - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You need to take a second look at your own link Frank. It doesn't make your point there bub.

No I don't. That was just to show you what the Falaise Pocket was.

Again, start a Patton thread...ahh fuck it I will

 

[CrusaderFrank]

That drunken piece of shit accused IKE of being a Commie symnpathizer.

When and where did McCarthy accuse Eisenhower of being a Communist sympathizer?

What is your source?

Sources? Who needs sources?

So far we've learned that McCarthy used his HUAC to Blacklist Zero Mostel and rail against fluoridated drinking water.

They keep running out of responses, fail to see the damage done by the Communist spies McCarthy tried to investigate, but never seem to run out of reasons why McCarthy was evil.

I mentioned once already that we need to understand how it is the Soviets programmed their Useful Idiots here to see if it is at all possible to undo the programming

 

[JakeStarkey]

I will post this one more time, then let it go. CrusanderFrank won't answer.

Frank, read onse, because that is all I am going to post it (so I repeated it, sue me!). Patton could not have defeated the Russians:

1. The German armed forces were shattered, demoralized, and would require at least (several years) to retrain, re-equip, and reinforce.
2. The British and the French would never have supported such an effort.
3. The U.S. had no training divisions available in the states while the Soviet forces were three times the size of the U.S. and had at least 90 divisions in training.
4. The first atomic demonstration was almost three months away.
5. The Japanese gave absolutely no indication they were going to give up in the next several years.

AND YOU, YOU STUPID *******, WANTED PATTON TO ATTACK THE RUSSIANS?

First, stop imitating me, it's creepy.

Second, Patton is irrelevant to this thread.

Third, Patton disagreed with how the US and Brits prosecuted the war since August 1944 so by the time April 45 came it was obvious no one was listening to him and the USSR was going to be a problem.

Start a Patton thread if you must

Frank, did you not bring up the Patton comment? If you did, then your post above is just crap. Here read:

Quote: Originally Posted by CrusaderFrank // Patton had the right idea how to handle the Soviets at the end of WWII. He considered the war a huge strategic FAILURE for the US and British because it left Berlin, Prague and Vienna in the "hands of the descendants of Genghis Khan" wheh the US could have captured those capitals. // And you can thank FDR taking advice from Alger Hiss (a Communist Spy) for that.

You can drop the Patton comment as fail if you wish.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

I will post this one more time, then let it go. CrusanderFrank won't answer.

Frank, read onse, because that is all I am going to post it (so I repeated it, sue me!). Patton could not have defeated the Russians:

1. The German armed forces were shattered, demoralized, and would require at least (several years) to retrain, re-equip, and reinforce.
2. The British and the French would never have supported such an effort.
3. The U.S. had no training divisions available in the states while the Soviet forces were three times the size of the U.S. and had at least 90 divisions in training.
4. The first atomic demonstration was almost three months away.
5. The Japanese gave absolutely no indication they were going to give up in the next several years.

AND YOU, YOU STUPID *******, WANTED PATTON TO ATTACK THE RUSSIANS?

First, stop imitating me, it's creepy.

Second, Patton is irrelevant to this thread.

Third, Patton disagreed with how the US and Brits prosecuted the war since August 1944 so by the time April 45 came it was obvious no one was listening to him and the USSR was going to be a problem.

Start a Patton thread if you must

Frank, did you not bring up the Patton comment? If you did, then your post above is just crap. Here read:

Quote: Originally Posted by CrusaderFrank // Patton had the right idea how to handle the Soviets at the end of WWII. He considered the war a huge strategic FAILURE for the US and British because it left Berlin, Prague and Vienna in the "hands of the descendants of Genghis Khan" wheh the US could have captured those capitals. // And you can thank FDR taking advice from Alger Hiss (a Communist Spy) for that.

You can drop the Patton comment as fail if you wish.

I started a Patton thread, Sparky.

Take you nose out of Mao's Little Red Book and check in here once in a while

 

[JakeStarkey]

First, stop imitating me, it's creepy.

Second, Patton is irrelevant to this thread.

Third, Patton disagreed with how the US and Brits prosecuted the war since August 1944 so by the time April 45 came it was obvious no one was listening to him and the USSR was going to be a problem.

Start a Patton thread if you must

Frank, did you not bring up the Patton comment? If you did, then your post above is just crap. Here read:

Quote: Originally Posted by CrusaderFrank // Patton had the right idea how to handle the Soviets at the end of WWII. He considered the war a huge strategic FAILURE for the US and British because it left Berlin, Prague and Vienna in the "hands of the descendants of Genghis Khan" wheh the US could have captured those capitals. // And you can thank FDR taking advice from Alger Hiss (a Communist Spy) for that.

You can drop the Patton comment as fail if you wish.

I started a Patton thread, Sparky.

Take you nose out of Mao's Little Red Book and check in here once in a while

I finished your Patton thread here. Nothing more to say. Thanks.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Frank, did you not bring up the Patton comment? If you did, then your post above is just crap. Here read:

Quote: Originally Posted by CrusaderFrank // Patton had the right idea how to handle the Soviets at the end of WWII. He considered the war a huge strategic FAILURE for the US and British because it left Berlin, Prague and Vienna in the "hands of the descendants of Genghis Khan" wheh the US could have captured those capitals. // And you can thank FDR taking advice from Alger Hiss (a Communist Spy) for that.

You can drop the Patton comment as fail if you wish.

I started a Patton thread, Sparky.

Take you nose out of Mao's Little Red Book and check in here once in a while

I finished your Patton thread here. Nothing more to say. Thanks.

I must have missed it.

Can you repost your thread ending thoughts?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Use the find program and search for Patton. You will find what you want.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Use the find program and search for Patton. You will find what you want.

Right

It must be right after the contrary "Blacklisted" footnotes you never posted and the repeatable laboratory experiments that show how a 200PPM increase in CO2 causes Global Warming.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Frank, your call and you offered nothing in substance. This point is over, other than kicking the dead body of your argument.

 

[Gadawg73]

That drunken piece of shit accused IKE of being a Commie symnpathizer.

When and where did McCarthy accuse Eisenhower of being a Communist sympathizer?

What is your source?

Let us take a long, hard look at the facts of what McCarthy did state publicly about our military leaders:
On General George Marshall " a man steeped in falsehood".
Concerning General and President Dwight D. Eisenhower let us look at the facts:
When McCarthy, with nothing more than innuendo and hearsay, set out to expose communists in the Army Eisenhower decided this was enough. Eisenhower instructed his staff to present facts that McCarthy, through Roy Cohn, had petitioned the Army to award preferential treatment to an assistant, David Schine. Finding himself on the defensive, McCarthy demanded and threatened to subpoena notes of meetings between Eisenhower and the Army attempting to bolster his "communists in the Army" fraud. Eisenhonwer established presidential precedent and invoked executive privilege in refusing to turn over the notes. McCarthy was advised by Schine and Cohn to use that as an admission that Eisenhower was hiding his sympathies with the communists in the Army because Ike claimed matters of national security might be breached if administration officials were forced to testify under oath. Ike robbed McCarthy the oppurtunity to contiunue his inquisition. After that, the Army hearings conducted by McCarthy degenerated into the fraud side show they really were.
In November 1953 McCarthy attacked Eisenhower and his administration on national television. He went off on an undisciplined slobbering tirade stating the administration was not acting to eliminate subversives from the administration and the government and that "America has been reduced to a state of whining and whimpering appeasement".
Off to a players' reunuion. Will be back later with more.

 

[Toro]

By the end of the McCarthy hearings, the senator's career was over; before an audience that often numbered 20 million Americans, he came across as bullying and unscrupulous. Yet today, more and more conservative writers are trying to vindicate the late senator. Authors M. Stanton Evans and Ann Coulter, for example, have claimed that McCarthy was more right than wrong because he, along with dozens of other anticommunists, was correct that the government was riddled with spies.

The FBI agents who actually chased Soviet spies have a very different perspective.

Robert J. Lamphere, who participated in all the FBI's major spy cases during the McCarthy period, was one. Lamphere also was the FBI liaison to the U.S. Army's Signal Intelligence Service's Venona program, which was intercepting secret Soviet communications. He used leads from the intercepts to work cases involving notorious espionage figures such as Klaus Fuchs, Harry Gold, David Greenglass, Ethel and Julius Rosenberg and Kim Philby.

Lamphere (who died in 2002), told me in an interview that agents who worked counterintelligence were appalled that FBI director J. Edgar Hoover initially supported McCarthy. True enough, the Venona intercepts revealed that hundreds more Soviet spies had operated in the government than was believed at the time.

"The problem was that McCarthy lied about his information and figures," Lamphere said. "He made charges against people that weren't true. McCarthyism harmed the counterintelligence effort against the Soviet threat because of the revulsion it caused." ...

As his arrogance grew, McCarthy began accusing President Dwight D. Eisenhower of being soft on communists. Hoover realized the dance was over; just before the Army-McCarthy hearings started he ordered the bureau to cease helping the senator.

During the hearings, McCarthy failed to substantiate his claims that communists had penetrated the Army. He did, however, insinuate that Fred Fischer, a young lawyer at Hale and Dorr, the law firm representing the Army, was a communist sympathizer because he'd been a member of the National Lawyers Guild at Harvard Law School. Supreme Court Justice Arthur J. Goldberg had also been a member of the group, which was alleged to be a communist front.

A Senate committee concluded that McCarthy's behavior as a committee chairman was "inexcusable," "vulgar and insulting." On Dec. 2, 1954, the Senate voted 67-22 to censure him; on May 2, 1957, McCarthy, age 48, died of acute hepatitis, widely believed to be a result of his alcoholism.

As a top Justice Department attorney, John L. Martin prosecuted scores of spies during a long career, and read many of the FBI's most secret raw files on historic espionage cases, including the files on Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, Judith Coplon, Alger Hiss and Rudolph Abel. "While Venona later confirmed and expanded upon what the FBI knew about Soviet operations in the U.S.," Mr. Martin says, McCarthy used "the umbrella of national security to justify his outrageous practice of besmirching reputations of loyal Americans."

Efforts to vindicate McCarthy overlook the fact that he did not help the cause of dealing with the spy threat. Rather, he gave spy hunting a bad name. In sanctioning McCarthy's intimidating tactics and dishonest charges, revisionists dangerously invite history to be repeated.

The Real Joe McCarthy

 

[CrusaderFrank]

By the end of the McCarthy hearings, the senator's career was over; before an audience that often numbered 20 million Americans, he came across as bullying and unscrupulous. Yet today, more and more conservative writers are trying to vindicate the late senator. Authors M. Stanton Evans and Ann Coulter, for example, have claimed that McCarthy was more right than wrong because he, along with dozens of other anticommunists, was correct that the government was riddled with spies.

The FBI agents who actually chased Soviet spies have a very different perspective.

Robert J. Lamphere, who participated in all the FBI's major spy cases during the McCarthy period, was one. Lamphere also was the FBI liaison to the U.S. Army's Signal Intelligence Service's Venona program, which was intercepting secret Soviet communications. He used leads from the intercepts to work cases involving notorious espionage figures such as Klaus Fuchs, Harry Gold, David Greenglass, Ethel and Julius Rosenberg and Kim Philby.

Lamphere (who died in 2002), told me in an interview that agents who worked counterintelligence were appalled that FBI director J. Edgar Hoover initially supported McCarthy. True enough, the Venona intercepts revealed that hundreds more Soviet spies had operated in the government than was believed at the time.

"The problem was that McCarthy lied about his information and figures," Lamphere said. "He made charges against people that weren't true. McCarthyism harmed the counterintelligence effort against the Soviet threat because of the revulsion it caused." ...

As his arrogance grew, McCarthy began accusing President Dwight D. Eisenhower of being soft on communists. Hoover realized the dance was over; just before the Army-McCarthy hearings started he ordered the bureau to cease helping the senator.

During the hearings, McCarthy failed to substantiate his claims that communists had penetrated the Army. He did, however, insinuate that Fred Fischer, a young lawyer at Hale and Dorr, the law firm representing the Army, was a communist sympathizer because he'd been a member of the National Lawyers Guild at Harvard Law School. Supreme Court Justice Arthur J. Goldberg had also been a member of the group, which was alleged to be a communist front.

A Senate committee concluded that McCarthy's behavior as a committee chairman was "inexcusable," "vulgar and insulting." On Dec. 2, 1954, the Senate voted 67-22 to censure him; on May 2, 1957, McCarthy, age 48, died of acute hepatitis, widely believed to be a result of his alcoholism.

As a top Justice Department attorney, John L. Martin prosecuted scores of spies during a long career, and read many of the FBI's most secret raw files on historic espionage cases, including the files on Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, Judith Coplon, Alger Hiss and Rudolph Abel. "While Venona later confirmed and expanded upon what the FBI knew about Soviet operations in the U.S.," Mr. Martin says, McCarthy used "the umbrella of national security to justify his outrageous practice of besmirching reputations of loyal Americans."

Efforts to vindicate McCarthy overlook the fact that he did not help the cause of dealing with the spy threat. Rather, he gave spy hunting a bad name. In sanctioning McCarthy's intimidating tactics and dishonest charges, revisionists dangerously invite history to be repeated.

The Real Joe McCarthy

Yawn.

McCarthy was a US Senator not head of FBI, he got information from US State to the effect that there was a robust spying effort that was being allowed to continue and he wanted to know why.

When you see the damage done by Soviet spies, making the US drop its backing of Shek in China in favor of Mao because Mao was "Democratic" and "Progressive" and then letting the Russians keep million of acres of prime real estate after WWII you have to ask, "What the fuck were we doing about Soviet spies twisting US policy?" and the answer apparently was "Protecting them"

Yes McCarthy went public...a year after the Soviets tried to reignite the fight for Berlin and 6 months before Mao ChiComs were killing US soldiers.

That's what matters to me.

 

[Mark LaRochelle]

McCarthy ... called the CIA "a sinkhole of communists".

When and where did McCarthy call the CIA "a sinkhole of communists"? What is your source?

Unless I'm mistaken, your quote is not of McCarthy, but of Evan Thomas.

 

[Mark LaRochelle]

Evans fails in an attempt to exculpate the man's unAmerican behavior in his search for communists and whatnots.

Your speculation about Evans' motives is, to put it mildly, mistaken. He does not attempt to exculpate McCarthy's behavior. He highlights McCarthy's missteps (all of which are well-known), but also reports the things McCarthy did right (which are much less well-known). Evans also documents the misdeeds of McCarthy's antagonists, which are generally ignored. The result is not an exculpation of McCarthy, but a detailed, factual recounting of what he and his opponents did, both good and bad.

By the way, what behavior of McCarthy's are you referring to as "unAmerican"?

His own party and its members pulled him down and had him censored.

That's censured, not "censored." And in McCarthy's case (unlike that of, say, Charlie Rangel), the official language was softened from "censure" to "condemn."