Should Army National Guard Troops Shoot Illegal Border Crossers ?

[protectionist]

we get to be the Good capitalists and make money from border policy.

How ?

 

[danielpalos]

we get to be the Good capitalists and make money from border policy.

How ?

applied capitalism instead of applied socialism. there should be Only capital incentive to cross our borders with inspection.

 

[Votto]

When I served in the Army National Guard, I was told the first duty of the Army National Guard is to do what the name "National Guard" clearly states > to guard the nation. And the first priority of that is to stop foreigners from invading the USA.

And the definition of invading

? > "to enter forcibly or hostilely" (Webster's New World College Dictionary, 5th ed.) Well, the caravaners already entered Mexico, from Guatemala, forcibly, and one could call it hostilely, being that it's disrespecting Mexico's immigration and border law. In doing so, the border crossers tore down fences and physical barriers.

There's no doubt that the thousands of people in this caravan have exactly that same thing in mind for the United States. The solution to stop them, according to my National Guard officers is to meet the force with greater force, and use whatever force is necessary to stop and repel the invaders.

Since an effective border wall is not yet in place or electrified fencing, barbed wire, etc, this would mean possibly shooting hundreds of the caravaners, gassing them at the border, or possibly even using artillery. The military has its job to do, the question is can (and should) we allow Honduras, Guatemala and other countries to invade us ?​

They would send their children running across to get shot much in the same way parents in Palestine send their children out into the streets in Israel to blow themselves up.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

Consider the premise that the NG has a moral obligation to shoot to kill women and children for a commission of a misdemeanor, illegal entry across our border.

Not only will such an action be condemned by the United Nations, but for those alive and in college when the murder of innocent students at Kent St., will remember the response in the streets across our nation.

It is about time to put a pin in the harsh rhetoric, and seek peaceful and pragmatic solutions to poverty and crime in Central America. It will be less costly in terms of blood and treasure to do so, sadly it has become a political mission by Trump to change the discussion from Russia and the Blue Wave to (one again) hate and fear mongering.

Capture and remove the women and children. Load them on trucks, planes and trains for return. Open season on the men, even if they have escaped into the US interior.

 

[Wry Catcher]

Herein is the root of the Problem:

World Report 2018: Rights Trends in Guatemala

If Trump wants to stem the tide of people running for their very lives, he should ask the Congress to declare war on Guatemala, invade the country and establish Military Law.

 

[protectionist]

Consider the premise that the NG has a moral obligation to shoot to kill women and children for a commission of a misdemeanor, illegal entry across our border.

Not only will such an action be condemned by the United Nations, but for those alive and in college when the murder of innocent students at Kent St., will remember the response in the streets across our nation.

It is about time to put a pin in the harsh rhetoric, and seek peaceful and pragmatic solutions to poverty and crime in Central America. It will be less costly in terms of blood and treasure to do so, sadly it has become a political mission by Trump to change the discussion from Russia and the Blue Wave to (one again) hate and fear mongering.

YOU are the one who is fomenting hate (against Trump who merely seeks to protect America).

If the NG shoots at the caravan, it will only be because there is no other way to stop it from forcing its way across our borders. This would not just be "commission of a misdemeanor, illegal entry across our border". It would be a full scale INVASION (definition already posted in the thread-read it)

Good Americans are concerned with the defense of the USA, not with talk opposing that, from the numbskull UN, or anyone else.

I have already posted the idea of "peaceful and pragmatic solutions to poverty and crime in Central America" further back in the tread. You should try reading a thread before posting in it.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

I saw an interview with one sot. He said everything he earned went to the gangs. One day the 18th street gang, another day MS-13. What made him such an idiot is that both these gangs are American gangs. He would not be escaping them but moving closer.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Was I talking to you? PMS much?

`
Isn't he such a delightful young lad.

I am well old enough to be on my third career, child!

 

[Natural Citizen]

These people are just useful pawns for someone else. I really do wonder who has funded this.

 

[Votto]

Herein is the root of the Problem:

World Report 2018: Rights Trends in Guatemala

If Trump wants to stem the tide of people running for their very lives, he should ask the Congress to declare war on Guatemala, invade the country and establish Military Law.

Right, heroin is not the problem, it is the solution.

After all, ever met a dead person with a problem?

 

[Votto]

These people are just useful pawns for someone else. I really do wonder who has funded this.

Who is funding it?

Beats me, they are in disguise.

 

[protectionist]

Herein is the root of the Problem:

World Report 2018: Rights Trends in Guatemala

If Trump wants to stem the tide of people running for their very lives, he should ask the Congress to declare war on Guatemala, invade the country and establish Military Law.

Might be a good idea (and necessary) - however I don't think Guatemalans are "running for their very lives"
If they were, they wouldn't be coming to the US. They would be going to countries closer to them, with lower crime rates than the US (Aruba, Cuba, Martinique,), and with no language barrier.

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia

I'd say their motives are more economic than anything else.

 

[Issa]

Guard my ass...where are they when Americans have being killing each other by the thousands every year? Where were they when mass shooters pick and choose their targets ?
So you want them to shoot poor people running from hardship for a better life? Jesus thought you that?

Mass shooters and Americans killing each other are problems dealt with by LOCAL law enforcement (police), not National Guard. And people busting across the US border, should be shot, if that's what it takes to stop a mob of that enormous size. This is the case whether they are poor or rich.

If they want a better life, they should do what US colonists did in the 1770s. Fight for it. Those early Americans didn't go invading another country, and then ask that country to give them food stamps, Medicaid, etc.

You are not from here....i'm sure you or your blood line came here for a better life...and yes even if you are a native american. God made this earth for everyone, screw the bullshit of I got here first i'm gonna close the door behind me.
And let me ask you this....why is the party of Jesus, conservative values, morals, Christianity are the first to be anti helping the needy, the refugees, the poor and the desperate? Which scripture you guys follow? ME ME ME ME?

Up until LBJ, Americans either worked, or starved to death.

You're a fan of natural selection, right?

All I see is people are running from death. Hunger, danger for a better life and we have plenty of land, food and resources let's help them like jesus would. Americans can share their huge wasted food portions and massive empty lands. Stop being greedy...

 

[Issa]

You are not from here....i'm sure you or your blood line came here for a better life...and yes even if you are a native american. God made this earth for everyone, screw the bullshit of I got here first i'm gonna close the door behind me.
And let me ask you this....why is the party of Jesus, conservative values, morals, Christianity are the first to be anti helping the needy, the refugees, the poor and the desperate? Which scripture you guys follow? ME ME ME ME?

Do you understand what the word NATION means ? Or, like so many looney Democrats, do you think the whole world is all one nation ? I believe in helping the needy (and I'm borderline needy myself), but that is the AMERICAN needy, not those of the whole rest of the world.

Let whoever wants to come here, immigrate legally, and IF they have something to really offer this country, then we could give them a shot at becoming an AMERICAN. That sure doesn't include thousands of people who are poor, uneducated, unskilled, have nothing to offer, but just want to take from our tax base.

And I will wager that very few of these caravan people meet the eligibility definition of "Refugee" (victim of PERSECUTION -

1. You are unable or unwilling to return to your home country because you have been persecuted there in the past or have a well-founded fear that you will be persecuted if you go back.

2. The reason you have been (or will be) persecuted is connected to one of five things: your race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or your political opinion
Asylum or Refugee Status: Who Is Eligible?

So why most conservatives preach about morals. The gospel, jesus word and bla bla bla? Is just for show....refugees are terrorists, latinos are rapists, immigrants are stealing our jobs....what happened to jesus teachings?
You and your ancestors fled from somewhere and now you wanna deny others a safe place to live ?

 

[dblack]

You are not from here....i'm sure you or your blood line came here for a better life...and yes even if you are a native american. God made this earth for everyone, screw the bullshit of I got here first i'm gonna close the door behind me.
And let me ask you this....why is the party of Jesus, conservative values, morals, Christianity are the first to be anti helping the needy, the refugees, the poor and the desperate? Which scripture you guys follow? ME ME ME ME?

Do you understand what the word NATION means ? Or, like so many looney Democrats, do you think the whole world is all one nation ? I believe in helping the needy (and I'm borderline needy myself), but that is the AMERICAN needy, not those of the whole rest of the world.

Let whoever wants to come here, immigrate legally, and IF they have something to really offer this country, then we could give them a shot at becoming an AMERICAN. That sure doesn't include thousands of people who are poor, uneducated, unskilled, have nothing to offer, but just want to take from our tax base.

And I will wager that very few of these caravan people meet the eligibility definition of "Refugee" (victim of PERSECUTION -

1. You are unable or unwilling to return to your home country because you have been persecuted there in the past or have a well-founded fear that you will be persecuted if you go back.

2. The reason you have been (or will be) persecuted is connected to one of five things: your race, religion, nationality, membership in a particular social group, or your political opinion
Asylum or Refugee Status: Who Is Eligible?

So why most conservatives preach about morals. The gospel, jesus word and bla bla bla? Is just for show....refugees are terrorists, latinos are rapists, immigrants are stealing our jobs....what happened to jesus teachings?
You and your ancestors fled from somewhere and now you wanna deny others a safe place to live ?

protectionist is not a conservative. He's an authoritarian jughead.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

NO.

Why not ? This the prescribed DUTY of the NG. Why should it not do what it is required to do ?

Is that what Jesus would do?

 

[RealDave]

You are a fucking asshole if you don't know they are escaping violence in their homeland.

Federal law prohibits military personnel from conducting law enforcement duties on U.S. soil, with exceptions for military bases and related properties.

Here's your free education on the caravan >>

1. If they just wanted refuge from violence, they could/would go to countries with lower crime (esp. homicide) rates than the US, of which there are quite a few, and closer to them than the US.

They have even openly stated that their reason for coming here, is economic not refuge from crime. Plus, the

Central American countries with the highest crime rates (El Salvador and Belize) are not in the caravan. It is made up of Hondurans and Guatemalans. This was already posted further back in the thread.

2. Federal law (Posse Comitatus) does NOT prohibit Army National Guard, Air National Guard, and Coast Guard military personnel from conducting law enforcement duties U.S. soil. There is also a long list of Exclusions from the Posse Comitatus law, which were posted at least twice in this thread already.

Exclusions and limitations[edit]
There are a number of situations in which the Act does not apply. These include:

• Army and Air National Guard units and state defense forces while under the authority of the governor of a state.
• Federal armed forces used in accordance to the Insurrection Act, as was the case of the 1st Marine Division and 7th Infantry Division being sent to curtail the 1992 Los Angeles riots.
• Under 18 U.S.C. § 831, the Attorney General may request that the Secretary of Defense provide emergency assistance if domestic law enforcement is inadequate to address certain types of threats involving the release of nuclear materials, such as potential use of a nuclear or radiological weapon. Such assistance may be by any personnel under the authority of the Department of Defense, provided such assistance does not adversely affect U.S. military preparedness. The only exemption is the deployment of nuclear materials on the part of the United States Armed Forces.
• Support roles under the Joint Special Operations Command.
• Enforcement of federal law at the discretion of the President of the United States, such as with the 101st Airborne Division by President Dwight D. Eisenhower to integrate Little Rock Central High School in 1957.
• Provide surveillance, intelligence gathering, observation, and equipment for domestic law enforcement on operations such as drug interdiction and counter-terrorism missions.

Posse Comitatus Act - Wikipedia

Blah blah blah. Trump can not order the military to do border patrol work.

Trump said he was sending the military to secure the border.

 

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

How about shooting over their heads or missing nearby?

Rubber bullets?
Wooden blocks?
Tazers?
Stun guns?
Water cannons (free shower)?
Tear gas?

This might make them think twice >>

and there's THIS >>

The skunk brigade is your only sensible idea so far.

How about a porcupine patrol?

 

[Jimmy_Chitwood]

How about shooting over their heads or missing nearby?

Rubber bullets?
Wooden blocks?
Tazers?
Stun guns?
Water cannons (free shower)?
Tear gas?

This might make them think twice >>

and there's THIS >>

The skunk brigade is your only sensible idea so far.

What if they hurt the skunks, though?

We used to have a couple skunks around. They're nice critters, they do have that odor about them, however.

What if the invaders smell wose than the skunks

 

[there4eyeM]

If an American citizen were to shoot someone who crossed the border unofficially, what would be the legal consequences?