Should the GOP mention that hillary is married to the Waco mass murderer?

[Faun]

Sure, uh-huh ... a child rapist is not scum ...

What evidence or reliable information are you aware of that supports the allegation of child rape or actual pedophilia?

Hs "evidence" is based upon innuendo, rumors, hearsay , imagination, and prejudice.

.

Translation: "Koresh Akbar!!"

 

[Contumacious]

What evidence or reliable information are you aware of that supports the allegation of child rape or actual pedophilia?

Hs "evidence" is based upon innuendo, rumors, hearsay , imagination, and prejudice.

.

Translation: "Koresh Akbar!!"

The Waco "Affidavit" you referred was allegedly authored by Davy Aguilera the BATF agent-in-charge.

According to Ms. Bunds, Howell annuls all marriages of couples who join his cult. He then has exclusive sexual access to the women. He also, according to Mrs. Bunds, has regular sexual relations with young girls there. The girls ages are from 11 years old to adulthood."

That statement is pure hearsay.

Find the sworn statements offered by Ms Bunds herself then we'll talk.

.

 

[MikeK]

Sure, uh-huh ... a child rapist is not scum ...

What evidence or reliable information are you aware of that supports the allegation of child rape or actual pedophilia?

Five different Davidians ....

Robyn Bunds:

Mrs. Bunds also told me that Howell had fathered at least fifteen children from various women and young girls at the compound. Some of the girls who had babies fathered by Howell were as young as 12 years old. She had personally delivered 7 of these children.

According to Ms. Bunds, Howell annuls all marriages of couples who join his cult. He then has exclusive sexual access to the women. He also, according to Mrs. Bunds, has regular sexual relations with young girls there. The girls ages are from 11 years old to adulthood.

The Waco Affidavit​

David Thibodeau:

"By April 1993, David had had sexual relations with a total of 15 women -- and had fathered 17 children with 11 of them."

Salvation: Former Davidian Tells Survivor's Story - News - The Austin Chronicle​

Ian Manning:

"I was told that Vernon was sleeping with Michelle Jones, now currently fifteen years of age. . . .
I have seen Aisha Gyarfas come out of various rooms with Vernon where he slept that night. Vernon brags about having slept with her. She is now only fourteen years of age."

Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas: Child Abuse​

Alison Manning:

"Vernon claims to have permission from God to have more than one wife and although he is legally married to one woman (Rachel Olivia Jones) he has sexual relations . . . with other women -two of which were minors at the time of his first encounters with Vernon has also discussed his relations with Aisha Gyarfas (an Australian girl of fourteen years of age), stating that on their first sexual encounter her heart was beating so fast and hard he could hear it. Once taken as his new 'wife' these girls were involved in continuing relations with Vernon, intermittently being taken into his bedroom to spend the evening with him."

Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas: Child Abuse​

Steven Schneider:

Excerpt From Negotiation Tapes, April 14-15, 1993

"FBI: . . . What about sex with twelve year olds? I keep getting back to that because you know and I know that's right, Steve [Schneider].

Schneider: It isn't right and it's not happening.

FBI: Well, was it with a fourteen year old?

Schneider: Fourteen year old? Wha * what can I say, it's true.

FBI: Yeah, okay, and --

Schneider: What can I say?

FBI: A fourteen year old is not a consenting adult, you know that.

Schneider: The person was, the person was.

FBI: Don't give me that. They're not an adult yet.

Schneider: I wasn't even here. This was with Rachel Jones.

FBI: It's rape. It's child rape. You know it and I know

Schneider: The parents consented before it even happened.

FBI: Oh, the parents can consent for a child, right?

Schneider: This is what I've heard, anyway. This is what I've been told.

Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas: Child Abuse​

With the exception of the "12 year-old" allegation, which I would agree is crossing a line -- if it's true, having sex with pubescent females is not uncommon in various religious cults, nor is it necessarily abnormal, unnatural, or perverse. According to the laws of Nature (and various religions) when the girl is ready, she is ready. So except for the statutory laws of certain states there was no "rape" involved. That FBI agent is simply full of shit and desperately searching for a reason to justify what he knew were precipitous and unnecessarily dangerous actions. Those people were voluntary members of a private religious cult which was harming no one or nothing inside or outside that entity. So the actions of the BATF and FBI/HRT were excessive and unnecessary from beginning to end.

But as I've already made clear, I am not a fan of David Koresh. Even if he were guilty of all the allegations against him, my beef is with they way the safety of those kids was brutishly disregarded, which led to their deaths in a particularly painful and hideous manner.

I know nothing about you but I strongly doubt you have any children of your own. Because if you do I simply cannot understand how you would not condemn the actions of those federal agents and, ultimately, Janet Reno and Bill Clinton. Even if you don't have children, try to imagine you do and they essentially were hostage within that building. Wouldn't their safety be paramount in your mind? And wouldn't your wish be to the just wait it out rather than to patently jeopardize their lives by provoking people you have cause to believe are irrational?

 

[JoeB131]

[

What the son-of-a-bitch won't admit is the fact the the Davidians lived peacefully at that location for years before the Gestapo decided to improve their public image by using the Davidians as stepping stones.

What the piece of shit won't admit is that he too would become suicidal if the government was allowed to terrorized him for months, and was allowed to keep the media away from the site. He too would be suicidal if the US Attorney General was allowed to use unfounded allegations and character assassination techniques as a pretext for violently invading his residence.

.

Um, yeah....

I suppose this girl was lying, then?

 

[JoeB131]

[

So your answer is they just didn't kill enough, wow.

Even if the people were insane that does not give the government the right to just kill them. There were MANY alternatives. Again, I ask, why were the ATF on the roof bashing in windows and attacking? Apparently they didn't fear getting shot.

One more time- THEY KILLED THEMSELVES.

And again, no great loss. 80 less religious whacks in the world just means more air for me.

They fired on federal officers. And Koresh realized he was getting demoted from "Guy with a Harem" to "Prison Bitch", he was happy to take all his deluded followers out with him.

 

[MikeK]

Guy, Koresh was scum.

Bullshit .

Why can't you be a man an admit that you know that none of that nonsense is true. That you want to believe it because you can't handle the truth ...that our government is a continuing criminal enterprise.

.

Sure, uh-huh ... a child rapist is not scum ...

Do you approve use of the word "rape" in situations where no form of physical force or coercion is involved? That word, even when used in the statutory context, bears the implicit stigma associated with physical force or forceful coercion in the common mind.

I concur with legal proscription against adult males sexually seducing immature females. But I challenge the wisdom of charging a boy whose seventeenth birthday was yesterday with "rape" because he had consensual sex with a seductive girl who is one day away from her sixteenth birthday.

Briefly stated, the word "rape" has powerful implications and should only be used in situations where the effect is appropriately deserved.

 

[Faun]

But YOU said it was "Conjecture" when he said that the FBI shoving gas in the house was the cause of the fire...well, which is it, he has CONJECTURE on one but not on the other?....Give us a break!

Try paying attention ... McNulty said it was his "contention" that the Davidian firing a gun at a tank from that upstairs bedroom started the first fire. In reality, his entire claim from that to the incendiary starting the fire was the CS methylene chloride, is nothing but conjecture. But he also acknowledges that it was known there was at least one Davidian to intentionally start another fire. That's not conjecture. Personally, I don't believe the Davidians started some of the fires but not all of them. But they did start fires in the compound. It was a mass suicide.

Excuse me fucktard:

How many times before did the Davidians attempt a mass suicide?

Why did they try a mass suicide while the stormtroopers were in their premises?

.

That has got to be among the dumbest defenses I've heard yet. Congrats!

Applying your twisted logic to the Peoples' Temple cult, Jim Jones and his followers never committed suicide either since that was the one and only time they allegedly committed suicide.

As far as why they did it ... ? How the hell should I know. Cause they were freaks? Cause they were some demented religious cult who thought the were following some messiah to the pearly gates? Cause they didn't want to be taken alive? Because they wanted to destroy any and all evidence of what was going on in that compound? Could be any of those or some other reason. Doesn't matter, that was their choice. My advice to anyone reading this ... don't get sucked into a cult.

 

[Faun]

Hs "evidence" is based upon innuendo, rumors, hearsay , imagination, and prejudice.

.

Translation: "Koresh Akbar!!"

The Waco "Affidavit" you referred was allegedly authored by Davy Aguilera the BATF agent-in-charge.

According to Ms. Bunds, Howell annuls all marriages of couples who join his cult. He then has exclusive sexual access to the women. He also, according to Mrs. Bunds, has regular sexual relations with young girls there. The girls ages are from 11 years old to adulthood."

That statement is pure hearsay.

Find the sworn statements offered by Ms Bunds herself then we'll talk.

.

Don't have to ... no less than 5 people have asserted that claim. Including one of the surviving Davidians who's version of events is in a book he authored, which can be easily found.

If you don't believe them, that's your perogative. Koresh akbar! I do believe them since their accounts are consistant.

 

[Faun]

Bullshit .

Why can't you be a man an admit that you know that none of that nonsense is true. That you want to believe it because you can't handle the truth ...that our government is a continuing criminal enterprise.

.

Sure, uh-huh ... a child rapist is not scum ...

Do you approve use of the word "rape" in situations where no form of physical force or coercion is involved? That word, even when used in the statutory context, bears the implicit stigma associated with physical force or forceful coercion in the common mind.

I concur with legal proscription against adult males sexually seducing immature females. But I challenge the wisdom of charging a boy whose seventeenth birthday was yesterday with "rape" because he had consensual sex with a seductive girl who is one day away from her sixteenth birthday.

Briefly stated, the word "rape" has powerful implications and should only be used in situations where the effect is appropriately deserved.

That's pretty fucking sick. We're not talking about consensual sex between a 16 and 17 year old, which by the way, is legal in many states. We're talking about a 30 something year old perverted sick fuck raping girls as young as 10 or 11. And no, that word is not harsh enough to describe Koresh.

 

[MikeK]

Um, yeah....

I suppose this girl was lying, then?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUTzNV9gx5I

First, as previously mentioned, I have no reason to defend Koresh because even if the stories about his molesting children are true it doesn't justify the feds' precipitous action that caused the death of those children.

As for Kiri Jewell's testimony, I frankly don't know if she lied or not. But Snyder's observation occurring at points 0.47 through 0.51 are cause for curious concern. Kiri wasn't relating an event from her memory. She was reading -- as from a script.

My opinion of the molestation charges is shaped by the fact that the local sheriff and Texas Child Protective Services investigated those charges and determined they were without merit. Then, long after the massacre is over, and when it is important to the BATF, the FBI/HRT, Janet Reno, and Bill Clinton that the public believe all the charges against Koresh, here comes Kiri Jewell with a very convincing script to read from. Who wouldn't believe her?

I notice the fact that David Jewell, who had been a Davidian but left when his wife began an affair with Koresh and rejected him, wasn't mentioned. It was then he left the Davidians and made the molestation charges against Koresh.

Are the charges true or not? I honestly don't know. Is there cause to question some if not all of them? I think so. But, again, even if they are true this is not about Koresh. It's about 21 innocent kids who were victimized by government's unwillingness to let Koresh's defiance continue.

For me, the Waco Massacre was reminiscent of the 1985 police attempt to breach the barricaded MOVE organization's row house in Philadelphia. That bull-headed bit of authoritarian incompetence resulted in the police causing a fire that burned down sixty-one houses! Who cares what the MOVE organization was about or how undesirable they were? I am concerned with the peripheral damage caused by the police whose authoritarian frustration and its accompanying incompetence drove hundreds of innocent people out of their homes.

 

[MikeK]

Sure, uh-huh ... a child rapist is not scum ...

Do you approve use of the word "rape" in situations where no form of physical force or coercion is involved? That word, even when used in the statutory context, bears the implicit stigma associated with physical force or forceful coercion in the common mind.

I concur with legal proscription against adult males sexually seducing immature females. But I challenge the wisdom of charging a boy whose seventeenth birthday was yesterday with "rape" because he had consensual sex with a seductive girl who is one day away from her sixteenth birthday.

Briefly stated, the word "rape" has powerful implications and should only be used in situations where the effect is appropriately deserved.

That's pretty fucking sick. We're not talking about consensual sex between a 16 and 17 year old, which by the way, is legal in many states. We're talking about a 30 something year old perverted sick fuck raping girls as young as 10 or 11. And no, that word is not harsh enough to describe Koresh.

If the thought of "raping" 10 and 11 year-olds turns you on so much you can't let go of it, then hang on to it. I prefer to believe the findings of the local sheriff and the Texas state Child Protective Services who said it didn't happen.

And for your information, the hypothetical situation I presented happens to very real. Consensual or not, if taken to court the boy would be charged with statutory rape and possibly imprisoned!

 

[Vigilante]

Holyfuckingshit, Vagisil!! People don't commit suicide by lightening -- but they do sometimes commit suicide by fire. It's rare, but it happens. Apparently, usually by religious folks and cultists. To formulate a defense that they didn't roast themselves on some bizarre notion that people rarely commit suicide by fire is pretty weak. But then again, it seems weak is all you have to work with.

Showing you that death by lightening is more likely than suicide by fire! From 1998 to 2008 447 people were killed by lightning strikes see if you can find a stat on suicide by fire in that time period. Waiting

Here's 71 ...

Self-Immolation in Context, 1963-2012 by Michael Biggs

Here's another 100+ (minus 35 which are probably the same listed in the previous link)...

Flames Of Protest: The History Of Self-Immolation : NPR

Here's another 235 ...

235 Sect Members Reported in Suicide By Fire in Uganda - NYTimes.com

Here's another 250+

RAWA.org: Suicides Among Afghan Women on the Rise (Photos of Some Victims) (warning, graphic)

That's well over 600 since 1998; making it even more common for people to commit suicide by fire than it is to get struck by lightening. So what exactly was your point about comparing self-immolation with getting struck by lightening??? You really should do your homework before leaping to assumptions.

Well, if you want to treat learned American's as you treat stone age mentality natives, I just don't see the Apples to oranges comparison!

 

[Vigilante]

Yes, there is a video stating that. Denial will not erase that. Vagisil posted it earlier in the thread and I quoted the "expert" from the video saying at least one of the fires was started intentionally by the Davidians.

But YOU said it was "Conjecture" when he said that the FBI shoving gas in the house was the cause of the fire...well, which is it, he has CONJECTURE on one but not on the other?....Give us a break!

Try paying attention ... McNulty said it was his "contention" that the Davidian firing a gun at a tank from that upstairs bedroom started the first fire. In reality, his entire claim from that to the incendiary starting the fire was the CS methylene chloride, is nothing but conjecture. But he also acknowledges that it was known there was at least one Davidian to intentionally start another fire. That's not conjecture. Personally, I don't believe the Davidians started some of the fires but not all of them. But they did start fires in the compound. It was a mass suicide.

Absolutely NO PROOF of them killing themselves intentionally, and a FBI report that CLEARS themselves certainly isn't any kind of proof!

 

[Vigilante]

Do you have proof that the WMD's were not shipped over to Syria before we invaded?

This Gentleman, one of Saddam's generals, in charge of the exit of WMD from Iraq to Syria, says they were shipped to Syria, and just happened to be stored in the area where Israel bombed Syria's nuclear reactor on Sept. 6, 2007!

Are you saying Bush invaded the wrong country???

Are you really this much of an idiot? Here we have Saddam's general, in charge of weapons, saying that before the war started he flew those WMD's to Syria, and even has the area pegged as the Area that was the nuclear reactor site that the Israeli's blew up in 2007.... This man had NO REASON to lie!

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

The only Waco mass murderer was Koresh. The government showed remarkable restraint after its agents were killed. Koresh on the other hand had gasoline spread about the compound in an act of murder-suicide.

If you watched all the news reports at the time, the general consensus begrudgingly admitted to was that the ATF failed in a major way and should never have created the standoff in the first place or gone anywhere near the Waco compound. They said that the feds should have waited for Koresh to leave the Branch Davidian's property and apprehend him quickly and easily in public.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

[

One more time- THEY KILLED THEMSELVES.

Yup - hell that nutter koresh was driving one of the tanks himself, wasn't he?

 

[ShootSpeeders]

[
That's pretty fucking sick. We're not talking about consensual sex between a 16 and 17 year old, which by the way, is legal in many states. We're talking about a 30 something year old perverted sick fuck raping girls as young as 10 or 11. And no, that word is not harsh enough to describe Koresh.

You don't have a shred of evidence that koresh was raping pre-teens. It's just a lie clinton invented after he burned alive 30 kids!!!!! It's a time-honored tactic. Absolve your own crimes by saying your victim was worse.

 

[ShootSpeeders]

[

Absolutely NO PROOF of them killing themselves

Of course not. The idea is absurd. Self-immolation is extremely rare and the idea of 80 (!!) people choosing to undergo the horrible death of being burned alive is out of the question.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

Even if it is true that a "valid search warrant" had been issued, an agent was required to serve it, WHO was responsible for that?



"Which officer had the arrest warrant in his possession? No ATF agent has ever been able to provide that name at trial or to any congressional committee."

.

Considering that they began shooting before that could happen, it hardly matters.

Were you there?

Or are you saying that you are such a low life scumbag that you believe that a paramilitary force , including helicopters hovering overhead , were required to serve a warrant?

.

If you got Koresh in jail already, at least there is an excellent chance that the Davidians would have fully cooperated with law enforcement through prior agreement or negotiation, and the question of whether their guns were fully automatic or not could have been settled. With an all-out assault, it is a foregone conclusion that what happened is going to happen.

 

[QuickHitCurepon]

For some reason the fool repubs don't talk about it but it's a fact that bill clinton killed 80 some americans at waco in 1993. Burned them alive - including 30 kids. And then he threw the survivors in prison so they wouldn't talk.

This is no conspiracy theory. Everyone agrees clinton did this and hillary is married to this psychopath. I say bring it up.

This should be in the Flame Zone or the Badlands.

How ironic and a lack of humanity it is that anyone would want such an important lesson of history ending in a mass conflagration relegated to the Flame Zone.