Should the GOP mention that hillary is married to the Waco mass murderer?

[Contumacious]

[

So, the alternate to stopping by or going to gun shows and seeing what they are selling is loading a cattle car full of para-military types and stop by for a visit? Really?

The ATF fired first and they brought the fight to the Davidians.

Um, gee, it would seem to me that the ATF didn't bring enough firepower to the fight.

We are talking about an insane cult full of people where ex-members told some really scary stories about what was going on in there.

These were people who were arming themselves for the end of the world. This is not the guy selling a sawed off shotgun at a gun show.

So your answer is they just didn't kill enough, wow.

Even if the people were insane that does not give the government the right to just kill them. There were MANY alternatives. Again, I ask, why were the ATF on the roof bashing in windows and attacking? Apparently they didn't fear getting shot.

What the son-of-a-bitch won't admit is the fact the the Davidians lived peacefully at that location for years before the Gestapo decided to improve their public image by using the Davidians as stepping stones.

What the piece of shit won't admit is that he too would become suicidal if the government was allowed to terrorized him for months, and was allowed to keep the media away from the site. He too would be suicidal if the US Attorney General was allowed to use unfounded allegations and character assassination techniques as a pretext for violently invading his residence.

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[Faun]

Yes, there is a video stating that. Denial will not erase that. Vagisil posted it earlier in the thread and I quoted the "expert" from the video saying at least one of the fires was started intentionally by the Davidians.

A video of who making that claim? One of the FBI "experts?"

But even if that were true, it would have some insane fanatics carrying out a threat to burn a bunch of children to death (along with themselves) if the FBI made an attempt to break in. And here comes the FBI, fully aware of that threat, breaking in.

And you think that's okay?

No, an independent researcher. What's your evidence the FBI knew the Davidians were going to commit suicide by fire?

 

[Faun]

There is far more at issue here than the role of "law enforcement," which seems to hold a special place in your value system.

This was not an ordinary situation. The safety of 21 helpless children, some just tots, was at issue. If you do not regard that as having primary importance the most I can say is it's your problem. I don't have to live with you. You do.

I do have the impression you are a member of law enforcement at some level, which adds to the explanation of why that job category leads in examples of suicide, alcoholism, and divorce. But, whatever the reason, there is no point in laboring an issue which you obviously (and sadly) lack the capacity to comprehend.

Some day you might come to realize why that's a serious problem.

I very much value law enforcement as it's a vital piece of our justice system which is among the best on the planet. The well being of the children is of great importance, but not so much that we allow people under arrest to avoid capture indefinitely if all they have to do is use their own children as human shieds. Even then, law enforcement tried to extricate the Davidians from the compound without injuring them or the children. Turned out, the freaks inside had an ulterior plan to kill themselves, along with their children, rather than surrender peacefully to law enforcement.

How do you know they had a pact to kill themselves? Please state the source, and not just say some video.

I know this because they killed themselves.

 

[Faun]

People also get hit by lightening way more than killing themselves by setting themselves on fire! .....It is NOT the way people commit suicide...especially when the FBI pumped in the gas that did the deed!.. Your refusal to accept logic is duly noted, as is your suspension of reality...Typical subversive!

Holyfuckingshit, Vagisil!! People don't commit suicide by lightening -- but they do sometimes commit suicide by fire. It's rare, but it happens. Apparently, usually by religious folks and cultists. To formulate a defense that they didn't roast themselves on some bizarre notion that people rarely commit suicide by fire is pretty weak. But then again, it seems weak is all you have to work with.

Showing you that death by lightening is more likely than suicide by fire! From 1998 to 2008 447 people were killed by lightning strikes see if you can find a stat on suicide by fire in that time period. Waiting

Here's 71 ...

Self-Immolation in Context, 1963-2012 by Michael Biggs

Here's another 100+ (minus 35 which are probably the same listed in the previous link)...

Flames Of Protest: The History Of Self-Immolation : NPR

Here's another 235 ...

235 Sect Members Reported in Suicide By Fire in Uganda - NYTimes.com

Here's another 250+

RAWA.org: Suicides Among Afghan Women on the Rise (Photos of Some Victims) (warning, graphic)

That's well over 600 since 1998; making it even more common for people to commit suicide by fire than it is to get struck by lightening. So what exactly was your point about comparing self-immolation with getting struck by lightening??? You really should do your homework before leaping to assumptions.

 

[Contumacious]

I very much value law enforcement as it's a vital piece of our justice system which is among the best on the planet. The well being of the children is of great importance, but not so much that we allow people under arrest to avoid capture indefinitely if all they have to do is use their own children as human shieds. Even then, law enforcement tried to extricate the Davidians from the compound without injuring them or the children. Turned out, the freaks inside had an ulterior plan to kill themselves, along with their children, rather than surrender peacefully to law enforcement.

How do you know they had a pact to kill themselves? Please state the source, and not just say some video.

I know this because they killed themselves.

HUH?

Was there any EVIDENCE that the BATF was not determined to massacre them?

.

 

[Faun]

How do you know they had a pact to kill themselves? Please state the source, and not just say some video.

I know this because they killed themselves.

HUH?

Was there any EVIDENCE that the BATF was not determined to massacre them?

.

That they sat outside the compound for 50 days ... that they used tanks to punch holes in walls rather than use them to fire their weapons. That they didn't kill any of the folks who left the compound during the 51 day siege or any of folks who fled the burning compound.

 

[MikeK]

Um, gee, it would seem to me that the ATF didn't bring enough firepower to the fight.

What would you recommend, a company of Marine infantry?

We are talking about an insane cult full of people where ex-members told some really scary stories about what was going on in there.

"Insane cult?" Read the opinion of the locals on this "insane cult" here -- along with some other interesting facts: Assault on Waco

These were people who were arming themselves for the end of the world. This is not the guy selling a sawed off shotgun at a gun show.

That is nothing but false propaganda put forth by a known rogue federal agency which should have been disbanded long ago: Backfire | A Journal Sentinel Watchdog Update - Justice Department supports probe into ATF rogue tactics

You are allowing your authoritarian/submissive orientation to influence your perception of the facts, such as the fact the Davidians had harmed no one. And all the negative allegations about them promoted by BATF had been investigated by the local sheriff and the appropriate Texas state agencies before BATF chose to conduct that raid -- which was called "Showtime" and was clearly a publicity stunt.

Again, the Davidians had harmed no one. They were in the firearms business and no illegal activity had been documented against them. Koresh's problems with BATF were based on his complaints of harrassment which came about because of the Davidians' eccentric lifestyle.

You should read the book, A Place Called Waco. It is written by a Davidian survivor, David Thibodeau, who wasn't very fond of Koresh but who lays out the facts of what the Davidians were about and what happened to them.

 

[MikeK]

I know this because they killed themselves.

HUH?

Was there any EVIDENCE that the BATF was not determined to massacre them?

.

That they sat outside the compound for 50 days ... that they used tanks to punch holes in walls rather than use them to fire their weapons. That they didn't kill any of the folks who left the compound during the 51 day siege or any of folks who fled the burning compound.

They didn't use tanks. They used the boom of a tank retriever to punch holes in walls to enable the introduction of a flammable, military-grade gas which is prohibited for indoor use. They did this being fully aware there were 21 helpless children inside who could be thought of as hostages. Shortly after introducing that gas, which they followed by tossing in additional gas grenades that burn off at 2000f, the fire started. (Read the book.)

If you poll 100 ordinary persons, what percentage do you believe would recommend doing something like that? Only a sociopathic authoritarian would impose such a risk on a bunch of innocent kids -- regardless of any official circumstances. Normal human beings do not place children at risk -- especially when there is no urgent need to do so. It is a primary animal instinct to protect children.

This issue is not about David Koresh. It is about 21 helpless children and the avoidable, brutishly stupid, wholly unnecessary and deliberately hazardous action that caused their agonizing deaths.

 

[Faun]

There is no such video.

But there is a video showing HRT using a military tank retriever to punch holes in the walls of the building to introduce a gas which is forbidden for use indoors and is highly flammable. It also is known that after this flammable gas was introduced the HRT tossed in a number of flash/bang and tear gas grenades immediately before the fire started.

It is also known that regulations forbid any federal agent to discharge a firearm when his/her specific target is not plainly visible and accessible. Yet thousands of rounds were randomly fired by BATF and FBI/HRT agents through the walls of the Davidian's wooden building -- knowing there were numerous infant children inside.

No issue has ever been made of this -- or of the fact that FBI/HRT was not contending with a gang of dangerous terrorist murderers, but rather a group of eccentric religionists who had been peaceful until subjected to an unnecessary, unjustifiable, militaristic raid by the BATF.

Yes, there is a video stating that. Denial will not erase that. Vagisil posted it earlier in the thread and I quoted the "expert" from the video saying at least one of the fires was started intentionally by the Davidians.

But YOU said it was "Conjecture" when he said that the FBI shoving gas in the house was the cause of the fire...well, which is it, he has CONJECTURE on one but not on the other?....Give us a break!

Try paying attention ... McNulty said it was his "contention" that the Davidian firing a gun at a tank from that upstairs bedroom started the first fire. In reality, his entire claim from that to the incendiary starting the fire was the CS methylene chloride, is nothing but conjecture. But he also acknowledges that it was known there was at least one Davidian to intentionally start another fire. That's not conjecture. Personally, I don't believe the Davidians started some of the fires but not all of them. But they did start fires in the compound. It was a mass suicide.

 

[Contumacious]

I know this because they killed themselves.

HUH?

Was there any EVIDENCE that the BATF was not determined to massacre them?

.

That they sat outside the compound for 50 days ... that they used tanks to punch holes in walls rather than use them to fire their weapons. That they didn't kill any of the folks who left the compound during the 51 day siege or any of folks who fled the burning compound.

Just so you know, leaving the compound was considered by the powers-that-be as a"surrender" and they would be arrested as a suspected criminal or detained as a potential witness.

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[Faun]

Bullshit .

Why can't you be a man an admit that you know that none of that nonsense is true. That you want to believe it because you can't handle the truth ...that our government is a continuing criminal enterprise.

.

Guy, Koresh was scum.

Bullshit .

Why can't you be a man an admit that you know that none of that nonsense is true. That you want to believe it because you can't handle the truth ...that our government is a continuing criminal enterprise.

.

Sure, uh-huh ... a child rapist is not scum ...

 

[Faun]

Should the GOP mention that they squandered trillions of our tax dollars on invading and torturing Iraq over lies?

Do you have proof that the WMD's were not shipped over to Syria before we invaded?

This Gentleman, one of Saddam's generals, in charge of the exit of WMD from Iraq to Syria, says they were shipped to Syria, and just happened to be stored in the area where Israel bombed Syria's nuclear reactor on Sept. 6, 2007!

Are you saying Bush invaded the wrong country???

 

[Faun]

HUH?

Was there any EVIDENCE that the BATF was not determined to massacre them?

.

That they sat outside the compound for 50 days ... that they used tanks to punch holes in walls rather than use them to fire their weapons. That they didn't kill any of the folks who left the compound during the 51 day siege or any of folks who fled the burning compound.

They didn't use tanks. They used the boom of a tank retriever to punch holes in walls to enable the introduction of a flammable, military-grade gas which is prohibited for indoor use. They did this being fully aware there were 21 helpless children inside who could be thought of as hostages. Shortly after introducing that gas, which they followed by tossing in additional gas grenades that burn off at 2000f, the fire started. (Read the book.)

If you poll 100 ordinary persons, what percentage do you believe would recommend doing something like that? Only a sociopathic authoritarian would impose such a risk on a bunch of innocent kids -- regardless of any official circumstances. Normal human beings do not place children at risk -- especially when there is no urgent need to do so. It is a primary animal instinct to protect children.

This issue is not about David Koresh. It is about 21 helpless children and the avoidable, brutishly stupid, wholly unnecessary and deliberately hazardous action that caused their agonizing deaths.

They used tanks also. But not for their guns.

And I'm still waiting for your evidence the FBI knew the Davidians were going to commit suicide by fire?

 

[Contumacious]

Yes, there is a video stating that. Denial will not erase that. Vagisil posted it earlier in the thread and I quoted the "expert" from the video saying at least one of the fires was started intentionally by the Davidians.

But YOU said it was "Conjecture" when he said that the FBI shoving gas in the house was the cause of the fire...well, which is it, he has CONJECTURE on one but not on the other?....Give us a break!

Try paying attention ... McNulty said it was his "contention" that the Davidian firing a gun at a tank from that upstairs bedroom started the first fire. In reality, his entire claim from that to the incendiary starting the fire was the CS methylene chloride, is nothing but conjecture. But he also acknowledges that it was known there was at least one Davidian to intentionally start another fire. That's not conjecture. Personally, I don't believe the Davidians started some of the fires but not all of them. But they did start fires in the compound. It was a mass suicide.

Excuse me fucktard:

How many times before did the Davidians attempt a mass suicide?

Why did they try a mass suicide while the stormtroopers were in their premises?

.

 

[MikeK]

They used tanks also. But not for their guns.

If I saw a tank in any of the video coverage, or if I read anything authoritative reporting the use of tanks, I would say that. But I didn't. If you saw a tank, or tanks, that would be news to me -- but by no means important. Just more evidence of Posse Comitatus violation.

And I'm still waiting for your evidence the FBI knew the Davidians were going to commit suicide by fire?

It was the FBi who reported hearing on their surveillance tapes the Davidians planning to start a fire and "pouring some liquid all around the place." Business | FBI Heard Koresh Plan Fires, Colonel Says | Seattle Times Newspaper

I prefer to think of that as just more mendacious propaganda, but it was widely reported. I'm surprised you hadn't read or heard it because it supports your position.

 

[MikeK]

Guy, Koresh was scum.

Bullshit .

Why can't you be a man an admit that you know that none of that nonsense is true. That you want to believe it because you can't handle the truth ...that our government is a continuing criminal enterprise.

.

Sure, uh-huh ... a child rapist is not scum ...

What evidence or reliable information are you aware of that supports the allegation of child rape or actual pedophilia?

 

[MikeK]

[

So, the alternate to stopping by or going to gun shows and seeing what they are selling is loading a cattle car full of para-military types and stop by for a visit? Really?

The ATF fired first and they brought the fight to the Davidians.

Um, gee, it would seem to me that the ATF didn't bring enough firepower to the fight.

We are talking about an insane cult full of people where ex-members told some really scary stories about what was going on in there.

These were people who were arming themselves for the end of the world. This is not the guy selling a sawed off shotgun at a gun show.

There are lots of people who are arming themselves against some imagined Armageddon. They are eccentric and there is no law against doing that. As far as the Davidians are concerned, they were federally licensed firearms dealers whose guns were inventory -- not a "stockpile." They had broken no gun laws and no evidence was ever presented to the contrary. Read the details of the Texas trial of the Davidian survivors if you doubt that. They were acquitted.

 

[Contumacious]

Bullshit .

Why can't you be a man an admit that you know that none of that nonsense is true. That you want to believe it because you can't handle the truth ...that our government is a continuing criminal enterprise.

.

Sure, uh-huh ... a child rapist is not scum ...

What evidence or reliable information are you aware of that supports the allegation of child rape or actual pedophilia?

Hs "evidence" is based upon innuendo, rumors, hearsay , imagination, and prejudice.

.

 

[Faun]

They used tanks also. But not for their guns.

If I saw a tank in any of the video coverage, or if I read anything authoritative reporting the use of tanks, I would say that. But I didn't. If you saw a tank, or tanks, that would be news to me -- but by no means important. Just more evidence of Posse Comitatus violation.

When the Bradleys arrived and were positioned around the compound, Koresh advised that he had weapons that could "blow them 40 to 50 feet in the air." The FBI then sought and obtained from the Army two Abrams (MlAl) tanks and five M728 Combat Engineer vehicles (CEVs), to give FBI personnel adequate protection from the .50 caliber rifles and other, more powerful weapons the Davidians might have.(17)

Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas: The FBI's Management of the Standoff at Mt. Carmel

And I'm still waiting for your evidence the FBI knew the Davidians were going to commit suicide by fire?

It was the FBi who reported hearing on their surveillance tapes the Davidians planning to start a fire and "pouring some liquid all around the place." Business | FBI Heard Koresh Plan Fires, Colonel Says | Seattle Times Newspaper

I prefer to think of that as just more mendacious propaganda, but it was widely reported. I'm surprised you hadn't read or heard it because it supports your position.

Sorry, my bad ... I thought you meant they knew prior to that day that the Davidians were planning to torch themselves. And yes, I heard about those transcripts ... I referred to them earlier in this thread.

 

[Faun]

Bullshit .

Why can't you be a man an admit that you know that none of that nonsense is true. That you want to believe it because you can't handle the truth ...that our government is a continuing criminal enterprise.

.

Sure, uh-huh ... a child rapist is not scum ...

What evidence or reliable information are you aware of that supports the allegation of child rape or actual pedophilia?

Five different Davidians ....

Robyn Bunds:

Mrs. Bunds also told me that Howell had fathered at least fifteen children from various women and young girls at the compound. Some of the girls who had babies fathered by Howell were as young as 12 years old. She had personally delivered 7 of these children.

According to Ms. Bunds, Howell annuls all marriages of couples who join his cult. He then has exclusive sexual access to the women. He also, according to Mrs. Bunds, has regular sexual relations with young girls there. The girls ages are from 11 years old to adulthood.

The Waco Affidavit​

David Thibodeau:

"By April 1993, David had had sexual relations with a total of 15 women -- and had fathered 17 children with 11 of them."

Salvation: Former Davidian Tells Survivor's Story - News - The Austin Chronicle​

Ian Manning:

"I was told that Vernon was sleeping with Michelle Jones, now currently fifteen years of age. . . .
I have seen Aisha Gyarfas come out of various rooms with Vernon where he slept that night. Vernon brags about having slept with her. She is now only fourteen years of age."

Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas: Child Abuse​

Alison Manning:

"Vernon claims to have permission from God to have more than one wife and although he is legally married to one woman (Rachel Olivia Jones) he has sexual relations . . . with other women -two of which were minors at the time of his first encounters with Vernon has also discussed his relations with Aisha Gyarfas (an Australian girl of fourteen years of age), stating that on their first sexual encounter her heart was beating so fast and hard he could hear it. Once taken as his new 'wife' these girls were involved in continuing relations with Vernon, intermittently being taken into his bedroom to spend the evening with him."

Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas: Child Abuse​

Steven Schneider:

Excerpt From Negotiation Tapes, April 14-15, 1993

"FBI: . . . What about sex with twelve year olds? I keep getting back to that because you know and I know that's right, Steve [Schneider].

Schneider: It isn't right and it's not happening.

FBI: Well, was it with a fourteen year old?

Schneider: Fourteen year old? Wha * what can I say, it's true.

FBI: Yeah, okay, and --

Schneider: What can I say?

FBI: A fourteen year old is not a consenting adult, you know that.

Schneider: The person was, the person was.

FBI: Don't give me that. They're not an adult yet.

Schneider: I wasn't even here. This was with Rachel Jones.

FBI: It's rape. It's child rape. You know it and I know

Schneider: The parents consented before it even happened.

FBI: Oh, the parents can consent for a child, right?

Schneider: This is what I've heard, anyway. This is what I've been told.

Report to the Deputy Attorney General on the Events at Waco, Texas: Child Abuse​