Should We Arm Our Teachers?

[Brain357]

What is Mrs. Futhey and her side arm compared to that and how is she going to be more effective than the United States Secret Service?

She doesn't have to be...but an unknown number of armed and trained staff is a deterrent to random attackers....she doesn't have to engage an attacker, but the attacker will never know who is armed and who isn't and that will require them to be slower, and more cautious if they attack a school. Also....having someone on the scene with a weapon can slow or even stop the attack.....it takes police up to 4 minutes to arrive at the scene....Sandy Hook...the killing was over in 5 minutes.....

If you people would study these shootings you would see that as soon as these guys are confronted by armed resistance they commit suicide, surrender or are killed....and immediate armed resistance cuts down on the number of deaths in these situations....stats on these attacks demonstrate this.....

Most these attackers are suicidal. It is not a deterant.

 

[2aguy]

What is Mrs. Futhey and her side arm compared to that and how is she going to be more effective than the United States Secret Service?

She doesn't have to be...but an unknown number of armed and trained staff is a deterrent to random attackers....she doesn't have to engage an attacker, but the attacker will never know who is armed and who isn't and that will require them to be slower, and more cautious if they attack a school. Also....having someone on the scene with a weapon can slow or even stop the attack.....it takes police up to 4 minutes to arrive at the scene....Sandy Hook...the killing was over in 5 minutes.....

If you people would study these shootings you would see that as soon as these guys are confronted by armed resistance they commit suicide, surrender or are killed....and immediate armed resistance cuts down on the number of deaths in these situations....stats on these attacks demonstrate this.....

Most these attackers are suicidal. It is not a deterant.

Yes.....but when do they commit suicide.....after they are confronted with armed resistance....either someone at the scene with a gun....or when the police arrived....at Sandy Hook...he killed for 5 minutes, all those children....and then...after the police arrived, he comitted suicide....

I would like to push them into commiting suicide much earlier in the process before they kill a lot of people....don't you?

 

[2aguy]

We haven't tried confiscating all private guns either Bill. That might work, we just don't know. What you don't want to try it "my" way? Why not Bill. Why don't you care about the kids Bill?

You see how that works???

We have seen how it works....a convicted criminal in Australia still managed to get a gun.....here....with large sea ports and a border with a Narco State.....won't even come close to being possible....

And considering that the anti gunners create gun free zone killing fields in our schools...and won't allow teaching gun safety in our grade schools....to save kids from accidental gun deaths....

Kids dying by guns helps the anti gun movement....it doesn't help me at all......

Bill, how many school shootings were there in the US in 2014?

Actual...or the ones the anti gunners claim were school shootings? You would have to post the number I don't have it with me.....not many from what I remember...and they aren't going up, they have remained at the same level pretty much.....

Pretty dame rare In fact, the percentage of schools which suffer a school shooting is FAR less than the number of people who carry who have accidental discharges. FAR less Bill.

Now,, I grant you that when there IS a a school shooting , there are more deaths than occur in an accidental discharge, but that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that teachers carrying at school would probably have around the same percentage of accidental discharges (and we've already seen that) that the general population who concealed carry does , and thus a students odds of being around a gun that is fired (whether on purpose or not) is higher from teachers who carry than it is from a random shooter.

That is why I think I would go for non teachers staff carrying.....principals, secretaries, librarians and at the High School level, deans, and possibly armed security guards....

 

[PratchettFan]

Horrible idea. It would be far more likely a teacher would accidently shoot a student than ever even be in a position to defend them, let alone qualified to act.

You have statistics to support this?
How many armed teachers have accidentally shot a student?

Having a concealed carry permit does not mean your are even vaguely competent with a firearm.

Neither does carrying a badge and police credentials -- but you have no issue with cops carrying guns.

Police go through extensive and ongoing training.

Do you need me to cite any number of instances that illustrate incompetent use of guns by the police?

There are no stats on this because the stupidity is only just beginning

So,... you admit you cannot substantively support your claim that " It would be far more likely a teacher would accidently shoot a student than ever even be in a position to defend them", Thank you.

So your argument is that police are incompetent with training but teachers will be competent without it. As I said, this is about anti-absurdity.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

We haven't tried confiscating all private guns either Bill. That might work, we just don't know. What you don't want to try it "my" way? Why not Bill. Why don't you care about the kids Bill?

You see how that works???

We have seen how it works....a convicted criminal in Australia still managed to get a gun.....here....with large sea ports and a border with a Narco State.....won't even come close to being possible....

And considering that the anti gunners create gun free zone killing fields in our schools...and won't allow teaching gun safety in our grade schools....to save kids from accidental gun deaths....

Kids dying by guns helps the anti gun movement....it doesn't help me at all......

Bill, how many school shootings were there in the US in 2014?

Actual...or the ones the anti gunners claim were school shootings? You would have to post the number I don't have it with me.....not many from what I remember...and they aren't going up, they have remained at the same level pretty much.....

Pretty dame rare In fact, the percentage of schools which suffer a school shooting is FAR less than the number of people who carry who have accidental discharges. FAR less Bill.

Now,, I grant you that when there IS a a school shooting , there are more deaths than occur in an accidental discharge, but that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that teachers carrying at school would probably have around the same percentage of accidental discharges (and we've already seen that) that the general population who concealed carry does , and thus a students odds of being around a gun that is fired (whether on purpose or not) is higher from teachers who carry than it is from a random shooter.

That is why I think I would go for non teachers staff carrying.....principals, secretaries, librarians and at the High School level, deans, and possibly armed security guards....

Now THAT I could deal with. Certain appointed personal having guns.
I am 100% opposed to just letting teachers carry though

I mean seriously we can't even trust that teachers won't sexually abuse our kids. Yes , let's give them guns

 

[Brain357]

What is Mrs. Futhey and her side arm compared to that and how is she going to be more effective than the United States Secret Service?

She doesn't have to be...but an unknown number of armed and trained staff is a deterrent to random attackers....she doesn't have to engage an attacker, but the attacker will never know who is armed and who isn't and that will require them to be slower, and more cautious if they attack a school. Also....having someone on the scene with a weapon can slow or even stop the attack.....it takes police up to 4 minutes to arrive at the scene....Sandy Hook...the killing was over in 5 minutes.....

If you people would study these shootings you would see that as soon as these guys are confronted by armed resistance they commit suicide, surrender or are killed....and immediate armed resistance cuts down on the number of deaths in these situations....stats on these attacks demonstrate this.....

Most these attackers are suicidal. It is not a deterant.

Yes.....but when do they commit suicide.....after they are confronted with armed resistance....either someone at the scene with a gun....or when the police arrived....at Sandy Hook...he killed for 5 minutes, all those children....and then...after the police arrived, he comitted suicide....

I would like to push them into commiting suicide much earlier in the process before they kill a lot of people....don't you?

Certainly I do. But there aren't many teachers carrying now yet I know of a few shooting themselves at school already. I'm not sure any good would overcome the bad. That school shooting that just happened in the cafeteria probably wouldn't have been stopped by any armed person faster than it already was stopped. Somebody might however have been accidently shot. But Newtown probably could have used someone. Of course if the Newtown shooter needed to reload more often more kids would have escaped also.

 

[JoeMoma]

Horrible idea. It would be far more likely a teacher would accidently shoot a student than ever even be in a position to defend them, let alone qualified to act.

You have statistics to support this?
How many armed teachers have accidentally shot a student?

Having a concealed carry permit does not mean your are even vaguely competent with a firearm.

Neither does carrying a badge and police credentials -- but you have no issue with cops carrying guns.

I'm for deputizing some of the teachers and administration and having them open carry.

 

[RKMBrown]

We have seen how it works....a convicted criminal in Australia still managed to get a gun.....here....with large sea ports and a border with a Narco State.....won't even come close to being possible....

And considering that the anti gunners create gun free zone killing fields in our schools...and won't allow teaching gun safety in our grade schools....to save kids from accidental gun deaths....

Kids dying by guns helps the anti gun movement....it doesn't help me at all......

Bill, how many school shootings were there in the US in 2014?

Actual...or the ones the anti gunners claim were school shootings? You would have to post the number I don't have it with me.....not many from what I remember...and they aren't going up, they have remained at the same level pretty much.....

Pretty dame rare In fact, the percentage of schools which suffer a school shooting is FAR less than the number of people who carry who have accidental discharges. FAR less Bill.

Now,, I grant you that when there IS a a school shooting , there are more deaths than occur in an accidental discharge, but that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that teachers carrying at school would probably have around the same percentage of accidental discharges (and we've already seen that) that the general population who concealed carry does , and thus a students odds of being around a gun that is fired (whether on purpose or not) is higher from teachers who carry than it is from a random shooter.

That is why I think I would go for non teachers staff carrying.....principals, secretaries, librarians and at the High School level, deans, and possibly armed security guards....

Now THAT I could deal with. Certain appointed personal having guns.
I am 100% opposed to just letting teachers carry though

I mean seriously we can't even trust that teachers won't sexually abuse our kids. Yes , let's give them guns

I mean seriously we can't even trust that cops won't abuse our citizens. Yes, let's give them guns.

See how that works?

 

[M14 Shooter]

Horrible idea. It would be far more likely a teacher would accidently shoot a student than ever even be in a position to defend them, let alone qualified to act.

You have statistics to support this?
How many armed teachers have accidentally shot a student?

Having a concealed carry permit does not mean your are even vaguely competent with a firearm.

Neither does carrying a badge and police credentials -- but you have no issue with cops carrying guns.

Police go through extensive and ongoing training.

Do you need me to cite any number of instances that illustrate incompetent use of guns by the police?

There are no stats on this because the stupidity is only just beginning

So,... you admit you cannot substantively support your claim that " It would be far more likely a teacher would accidently shoot a student than ever even be in a position to defend them", Thank you.

So your argument is that police are incompetent with training but teachers will be competent without it. As I said, this is about anti-absurdity.

No.

YOUR argument is that people w/ concealed carry permits aren't vaguely competent w/ a firearm.
YOUR argument is that It would be far more likely a teacher would accideently shoot a student than ever even be in a position to defend them.
Neither point can you sustain with substantive support.

MY point was that police officers demonstrate their incompetence w/ firearms all the time, and yet you have no issue with them carrying guns, yet you take exception to people w/ CCW permits having them.

 

[2aguy]

Concealed carry permit holders are more law abiding than regular citizens and even commit less crime than sworn police officers do....the research into this shows this to be true....

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

Concealed carry permit holders are more law abiding than regular citizens and even commit less crime than sworn police officers do....the research into this shows this to be true....

I believe that is true. However, I'm not worried about an armed teacher breaking the law.

My argument against arming teachers is based SOLELY on one thing.

Which puts a child at more risk of being shot.

You've conceded, school shootings are MUCH rarer than accidental discharges . Its only logical to follow that with a child is MUCH more likely to be shot by an accidental discharge than they are by one of these school shooters.

 

[M14 Shooter]

You've conceded, school shootings are MUCH rarer than accidental discharges

Overall accidental discharge rate is the wrong standard as it encompasses all people under all circumstances.
What's the rate of accidental discharges by people with a CCW permit while carrying their gun?

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

You've conceded, school shootings are MUCH rarer than accidental discharges

Overall accidental discharge rate is the wrong standard as it encompasses all people under all circumstances.
What's the rate of accidental discharges by people with a CCW permit while carrying their gun?

A fair and valid point , and I'd be interested in seeing the data, BUT my hunch is that it higher than the school shooting rate.

 

[M14 Shooter]

You've conceded, school shootings are MUCH rarer than accidental discharges

Overall accidental discharge rate is the wrong standard as it encompasses all people under all circumstances.
What's the rate of accidental discharges by people with a CCW permit while carrying their gun?

A fair and valid point , and I'd be interested in seeing the data, BUT my hunch is that it higher than the school shooting rate.

And while I agree that it is unlikely for any given child to be the victim of a school shooting, it is almost certain that another school shooting will take place where a child WILL be a victim -- and so, the chance of any given child being a victim is an invalid standard as well.

 

[SmarterThanTheAverageBear]

You've conceded, school shootings are MUCH rarer than accidental discharges

Overall accidental discharge rate is the wrong standard as it encompasses all people under all circumstances.
What's the rate of accidental discharges by people with a CCW permit while carrying their gun?

A fair and valid point , and I'd be interested in seeing the data, BUT my hunch is that it higher than the school shooting rate.

And while I agree that it is unlikely for any given child to be the victim of a school shooting, it is almost certain that another school shooting will take place where a child WILL be a victim -- and so, the chance of any given child being a victim is an invalid standard as well.

It would be an invalid standard if I were saying "hey it's unlikely, so no precautions should be taken" , but that is NOT what I have said.

What I HAVE said is that we should not take "precautions" which put a child at a greater risk of being shot than the very situation we are trying to prevent.

 

[RKMBrown]

Actual...or the ones the anti gunners claim were school shootings? You would have to post the number I don't have it with me.....not many from what I remember...and they aren't going up, they have remained at the same level pretty much.....

Pretty dame rare In fact, the percentage of schools which suffer a school shooting is FAR less than the number of people who carry who have accidental discharges. FAR less Bill.

Now,, I grant you that when there IS a a school shooting , there are more deaths than occur in an accidental discharge, but that's not what I'm arguing. I'm arguing that teachers carrying at school would probably have around the same percentage of accidental discharges (and we've already seen that) that the general population who concealed carry does , and thus a students odds of being around a gun that is fired (whether on purpose or not) is higher from teachers who carry than it is from a random shooter.

That is why I think I would go for non teachers staff carrying.....principals, secretaries, librarians and at the High School level, deans, and possibly armed security guards....

Now THAT I could deal with. Certain appointed personal having guns.
I am 100% opposed to just letting teachers carry though

I mean seriously we can't even trust that teachers won't sexually abuse our kids. Yes , let's give them guns

I mean seriously we can't even trust that cops won't abuse our citizens. Yes, let's give them guns.

See how that works?

You're a troll. For real.

Not in this thread. You are the one trolling this thread, not me. Can't trust teachers not to rape our kids let alone protect our kids? WTF.... yeah that's troll. Or are you saying that if you were a teacher you could not be trusted not to rape children?

 

[Conservative65]

Some states and local jurisdictions are considering or have already passed laws allowing teachers, faculty and other campus staff to carry firearms on campus. Additionally, the NRA is recommending this as a step to improve school security.
Supporters claim it means tragic massacres of students could be avoided if teachers could defend themselves against armed fanatics to the same degree.

But is this a good idea?

It is a good idea for criminals and nuts to think they might encounter an armed person if they victimize a school.

No teacher should be forced to carry; no untrained person should be allowed to carry.

Most principals I worked for had a pistol in their desk.

That ended about 20 years ago, as the school shootings started.

I left the teaching profession about 12 years ago. There were very few days when I didn't have one. I'm sure if the leftists there knew I had it, they would have a problem and likely run, in a brownnosing manner to tell on me. The interesting things is I could have been the one that actually save their life in that type of situation.

 

[PratchettFan]

Horrible idea. It would be far more likely a teacher would accidently shoot a student than ever even be in a position to defend them, let alone qualified to act.

You have statistics to support this?
How many armed teachers have accidentally shot a student?

Having a concealed carry permit does not mean your are even vaguely competent with a firearm.

Neither does carrying a badge and police credentials -- but you have no issue with cops carrying guns.

Police go through extensive and ongoing training.

Do you need me to cite any number of instances that illustrate incompetent use of guns by the police?

There are no stats on this because the stupidity is only just beginning

So,... you admit you cannot substantively support your claim that " It would be far more likely a teacher would accidently shoot a student than ever even be in a position to defend them", Thank you.

So your argument is that police are incompetent with training but teachers will be competent without it. As I said, this is about anti-absurdity.

No.

YOUR argument is that people w/ concealed carry permits aren't vaguely competent w/ a firearm.
YOUR argument is that It would be far more likely a teacher would accideently shoot a student than ever even be in a position to defend them.
Neither point can you sustain with substantive support.

MY point was that police officers demonstrate their incompetence w/ firearms all the time, and yet you have no issue with them carrying guns, yet you take exception to people w/ CCW permits having them.

I have a problem with sticking unqualified people with weapons in a child rich environment, yes. I think it is an idiotic idea.

 

[Dan Daly]

We don't need to arm anyone...we simply need to quit trying to disarm them.

 

[rdean]

This is how it works for the right wing:

1. Take away teacher's right to bargain.

2. Take away job security.

3. Cut their salary.

4. Cut their days off.

5. Call them stupid leeches

6. Take away their health care

7. Arm them.

8. Give them your kids.