Simple Point Missing in the Union threads

[chanel]

This is why I belong to a union.

1. reprimanded for writing a letter to a legislator regarding school safety (I was unaware that teachers have limited free speech rights). Won't make that mistake again.
2. falsely accused of making PRANK PHONE CALLS to a student I hardly knew
3. reprimanded for "making a girl cry" after I sent her out for a dress code violation (4th day in a row)

Two of my friends needed union representation for the following:
1. calling a parent about a student's suicide comment (apparently teachers are not permitted to do this)
2. accused of "simple assault" for accidently hitting a kid while gesturing

If Christie busts the teacher's union and makes participation voluntary, I will keep my membership. And I am a Republican.

 

[Skull Pilot]

You guys are full of sarcasm but no reasonable answers to what happens when employees arent allowed to collectively bargain? Will that be benefit to you and your family? Do you think once the state budgets are balanced someone will give it back?

Oh they can collectively bargain all they want. The employer does not have to accept the terms.

And in my business if any of my employees walk out on me they're fired no ifs ands or buts.

The employer owns the job not the employees.

 

[gallantwarrior]

After reading the pro-union posts here, I can only come to one conclusion:

Unions are the only way complete idiots can get raises.

No you are being simple. You know that if a single employee asks for a raise the company not only weighs the talent but also the cost to their bottom line. If you are going to ignore that fact and believe that collective bargaining is a bad thing then*shrug but the level of trust you put into corporations never is looked at as a slippery slope.

If the workers cannot turn to the government to protect them from the unrestrained predations of corporate capitalism, then the workers must find a way to protect themselves. Unless they plan to plunder the stores where they work for guns and start the revolution, then their best tool is a union. A strong union of workers, standing together, is in a position to bargain with a company, because a company needs employees in order to make money. Employees, alone, are in no position to bargain with a company, because employees need to eat.

A Company can treat employees horribly and guess what. They'll still have employees because people need money and companies pay it.

Probably wasting my time but here goes:

You want a raise you ask for it. If you are doing a good job for the company and the company knows that you could get a higher paying job then they will give you a raise. If they do not give you a raise then you have a decision to make. Do you stay there or do you get a better paying job. If you are getting paid the same as others ion your industry and at your level then you would have to be extraordinary to deserve a raise. If you are then the company will give you one. That is the leverage you have. If you want more money but you are already getting paid at or above the industry market rate then you should get more schooling and/or find another field of endeavor.

What you union sympathizers don't understand is that the jobs belong to the CORPORATIONS not to you. They can and should be able to determine the pay for that job. YOU do not get to determine the pay.

You had to go there...suggesting that workers make themselves a desirable commodity that employers will want to retain...stinks like personal responsibility.

 

[LordBrownTrout]

You guys are full of sarcasm but no reasonable answers to what happens when employees arent allowed to collectively bargain? Will that be benefit to you and your family? Do you think once the state budgets are balanced someone will give it back?

Even FDR knew of the repercussions of collective bargaining in public unions. The populace will eventually sour when they realize that they are being fleeced.

 

[WillowTree]

Why We Need Unions

If you've ever asked for a raise at work, you should understand the concept of leverage: to the extent that your employer needs you, you have it, and you're able to get something (increased wages) for it; to the extent that your employer considers you replaceable, you lack it, and therefore have no way to improve your own position. In the retail and service industries, employees lack leverage almost by definition. Anyone who makes trouble can simply be tossed out and replaced. Unions give those employees leverage. That leverage is a means to a fair wage. Not an outrageous, outsized wage; a fair wage. Any union that bankrupts the parent company is a failure, because all the union members end up unemployed. It is in the interest of unions to achieve the best possible conditions for workers that still allow the company to flourish. A union does not throw off the balance of power in the workplace—lack of a union does.

Large corporations are machines designed to make money for shareholders. They do it well. To expect them to do anything but minimize wages and maximize profit is to misunderstand their nature. The most basic sense of decency and respect for human rights dictates that there must be some mechanism by which the workers—the humans—can assert their interests. Otherwise they will be crushed by the machine. It's all very plain to see.

A farmer who had a quarrelsome family called his sons and told them to lay a bunch of sticks before him.

Then, after laying the sticks parallel to one another and binding them, he challenged his sons, one after one, to pick up the bundle and break it.

They all tried, but in vain.

Then, untying the bundle, he gave them the sticks to break one by one. This they did with the greatest ease.

Then said the father, "Thus, my sons, as long as you remain united, you are a match for anything, but differ and separate, and you are undone."

Take two posts and make one a bundle of sticks and the other one stick. Which do you think will be strongest?

Private unions are good if that's what you want. But public taxpayer funded unions are not good.

 

[buckeye45_73]

This is why I belong to a union.

1. reprimanded for writing a letter to a legislator regarding school safety (I was unaware that teachers have limited free speech rights). Won't make that mistake again.
2. falsely accused of making PRANK PHONE CALLS to a student I hardly knew
3. reprimanded for "making a girl cry" after I sent her out for a dress code violation (4th day in a row)

Two of my friends needed union representation for the following:
1. calling a parent about a student's suicide comment (apparently teachers are not permitted to do this)
2. accused of "simple assault" for accidently hitting a kid while gesturing

If Christie busts the teacher's union and makes participation voluntary, I will keep my membership. And I am a Republican.

Hey that's cool, if you like what they do, go for it. The problem I have is my aunt is a kindergarten teacher and if she reports bad behavior of the kids and possible issues with the parents, SHE gets in trouble. It's amazing.

 

[ClosedCaption]

No you are being simple. You know that if a single employee asks for a raise the company not only weighs the talent but also the cost to their bottom line. If you are going to ignore that fact and believe that collective bargaining is a bad thing then*shrug but the level of trust you put into corporations never is looked at as a slippery slope.



A Company can treat employees horribly and guess what. They'll still have employees because people need money and companies pay it.

Probably wasting my time but here goes:

You want a raise you ask for it. If you are doing a good job for the company and the company knows that you could get a higher paying job then they will give you a raise. If they do not give you a raise then you have a decision to make. Do you stay there or do you get a better paying job. If you are getting paid the same as others ion your industry and at your level then you would have to be extraordinary to deserve a raise. If you are then the company will give you one. That is the leverage you have. If you want more money but you are already getting paid at or above the industry market rate then you should get more schooling and/or find another field of endeavor.

What you union sympathizers don't understand is that the jobs belong to the CORPORATIONS not to you. They can and should be able to determine the pay for that job. YOU do not get to determine the pay.

You had to go there...suggesting that workers make themselves a desirable commodity that employers will want to retain...stinks like personal responsibility.

Personal responsibility is getting yourself the skills to earn more money. Personal Responsiblity has nothing to do with a company giving you a raise. Unless the bottom line and profitablity is no longer the function of Corporations.

What you dont understand is that Corps have jobs and employees make corps money. Corps shouldnt ave more power than the employees. One needs the other to survive.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Why We Need Unions

If you've ever asked for a raise at work, you should understand the concept of leverage: to the extent that your employer needs you, you have it, and you're able to get something (increased wages) for it; to the extent that your employer considers you replaceable, you lack it, and therefore have no way to improve your own position. In the retail and service industries, employees lack leverage almost by definition. Anyone who makes trouble can simply be tossed out and replaced. Unions give those employees leverage. False. Unions give unions leverage.That leverage is a means to a fair wage.bloated wage. Not an outrageous, outsized wage; a fair wage. out and out lieAny union that bankrupts the parent company is a failure, because all the union members end up unemployed. False, the big 3 nearly went under. Coal mines in Southern Ill did close, the unions just forced the dems to ensure they got hired elsewhere.It is in the interest of unions to achieve the best possible conditions for workers that still allow the company to flourish.false, the unions are in it for themselves. A union does not throw off the balance of power in the workplace—lack of a union does. lies.

Large corporations are machines designed to make money for shareholders. They do it well. To expect them to do anything but minimize wagesfalse and maximize profit is to misunderstand their nature. The most basic sense of decency and respect for human rights dictates that there must be some mechanism by which the workers—the humans—can assert their interests. Otherwise they will be crushed by the machine. that is such a load, I don't know where to start. It's all very plain to see.

A farmer who had a quarrelsome family called his sons and told them to lay a bunch of sticks before him.

Then, after laying the sticks parallel to one another and binding them, he challenged his sons, one after one, to pick up the bundle and break it.

They all tried, but in vain.

Then, untying the bundle, he gave them the sticks to break one by one. This they did with the greatest ease.

Then said the father, "Thus, my sons, as long as you remain united, you are a match for anything, but differ and separate, and you are undone."

Take two posts and make one a bundle of sticks and the other one stick. Which do you think will be strongest?

good lord, a complete load of crap tossed onto the internet for all to see.



You give a million monkeys a million typewriters and they will produce the works of Shakespeare.

due to the internet, we know this old saying is utterly wrong.

 

[whitehall]

Why We Need Unions

If you've ever asked for a raise at work, you should understand the concept of leverage: to the extent that your employer needs you, you have it, and you're able to get something (increased wages) for it; to the extent that your employer considers you replaceable, you lack it, and therefore have no way to improve your own position. In the retail and service industries, employees lack leverage almost by definition. Anyone who makes trouble can simply be tossed out and replaced. Unions give those employees leverage. That leverage is a means to a fair wage. Not an outrageous, outsized wage; a fair wage. Any union that bankrupts the parent company is a failure, because all the union members end up unemployed. It is in the interest of unions to achieve the best possible conditions for workers that still allow the company to flourish. A union does not throw off the balance of power in the workplace—lack of a union does.

Large corporations are machines designed to make money for shareholders. They do it well. To expect them to do anything but minimize wages and maximize profit is to misunderstand their nature. The most basic sense of decency and respect for human rights dictates that there must be some mechanism by which the workers—the humans—can assert their interests. Otherwise they will be crushed by the machine. It's all very plain to see.

A farmer who had a quarrelsome family called his sons and told them to lay a bunch of sticks before him.

Then, after laying the sticks parallel to one another and binding them, he challenged his sons, one after one, to pick up the bundle and break it.

They all tried, but in vain.

Then, untying the bundle, he gave them the sticks to break one by one. This they did with the greatest ease.

Then said the father, "Thus, my sons, as long as you remain united, you are a match for anything, but differ and separate, and you are undone."

Take two posts and make one a bundle of sticks and the other one stick. Which do you think will be strongest?

Maybe you think you explained the concept of "leverage" but you didn't. You need to explain how leverage works by intimidation and physical threats. One example of leverage is when municipal unions threaten strikes unless taxpayers fork over more cash to fund lavish retirement benefits. Teachers who called in sick to riot and physically intimidate the governor of Wisconsin showed how it's done. The problem for the unions is that Americans are smart enough to understand the concept of leverage.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

People ain't sticks and bureaucrat unions are purely parasitic.

BTW, what do we call a bundle of sticks?...What is that a symbol of?

Love the Luca Brasi avi

Unions suck

Unions thwart excellence

Unions live for cost overruns

 

[peach174]

When unions negotiate payments, so that a city bus diver can make 159,000.00 a year in WI, that's abuse to all the of taxpayer's in the State.
Wanting unions to become reasonable again, is not wanting them to cease to exist.

 

[Katzndogz]

Unions have become the guy who saved your life on the battlefield. He moves into your home, sleeps on your sofa, eats your food, tells your wife what to do and disciplines your kids. Complain and it's "I saved your life".

The public is souring on unions. The public sees itself becoming enslaved to ever greedier union bosses who use employee dues to pay off politicians for personal gain. Not for the gain of the union members but personal gain.

When the public has to deal with a government sector union worker, they find someone who is lazy, contemptuous, rude and incompetent. Why shouldn't the union worker be like this, they have lifetime jobs, they make more than the public who is asking for service, they have more legacy benefits that the public they serve and are not answerable to that public.

 

[Lovebears65]

I can care less if they want unions in the private sector but when the tax payers are paying your salary you should not be allowed to strike PERIOD. I think they should be paid on their merit not just because they made tenor ... There is a school In PA that is on strike, base salaries would range from $42,552 to $96,883 this year. and that is before benefits they do not want to contribute to any of their benefits either. They also want their full pay after they retire and also all their benefits. This is the second time this year they been on strike. How is this helping the kids.. Its not. When they finally go back to work the kids will be going to school to July or Aug just in time to go back to school..

They say the teachers are among the highest paid in the state, despite the district's falling PSSA scores. And combined with the area's tough economy, the teachers' demands are unrealistic.

Parents, teachers on opposing sides in Neshaminy strike | 6abc.com

 

[occupied]

To all those who think that the billionaires just want unions to be reasonable think again. Let's look at ALEC for a moment as they were the authors of the public union busting bill, What the hell does a lobbying group serving America's biggest corporations care about public unions? They don't but you have to start somewhere in a mission to destroy unions as a political force in America. We are not dealing with reasonable people, they want nothing less than the end of collective bargaining in America.

 

[naturegirl]

Ahhhh, I see the story of the three little pigs here. The brick house was built with care and had a solid foundation, the little pig did it all by himself.

Cheaper isn't always better, most people know that. They'll pay more for a "good" product. I agree, sometimes there just isn't enough to pay that little extra but in the long run it will save you money because you won't have to spend again so soon.

Unions have their place in the private sector. Public Sector Unions are useless, the government is bound by OSHA, NLRB and many other bureaucracies to provide a safe working environment for a fair wage. There is no need for a government entity to be unionized.

 

[buckeye45_73]

To all those who think that the billionaires just want unions to be reasonable think again. Let's look at ALEC for a moment as they were the authors of the public union busting bill, What the hell does a lobbying group serving America's biggest corporations care about public unions? They don't but you have to start somewhere in a mission to destroy unions as a political force in America. We are not dealing with reasonable people, they want nothing less than the end of collective bargaining in America.

Look dude, I've already shown a private company (fed ex) pays better wages than a union company (UPS) in the same industry. IF you want to be in a union, awesome, but people should not be coerced. I mean after all unions are to help the little guy? not make a union boss rich?
I live in TN and wages arent any different than in OHIO, TN is right to work and Ohio is unionized. no difference, other than in TN I dont take money out of my paycheck and give it to some polish or italitan thug.

 

[FJO]

This is why I belong to a union.

1. reprimanded for writing a letter to a legislator regarding school safety (I was unaware that teachers have limited free speech rights). Won't make that mistake again.
2. falsely accused of making PRANK PHONE CALLS to a student I hardly knew
3. reprimanded for "making a girl cry" after I sent her out for a dress code violation (4th day in a row)

Two of my friends needed union representation for the following:
1. calling a parent about a student's suicide comment (apparently teachers are not permitted to do this)
2. accused of "simple assault" for accidently hitting a kid while gesturing

If Christie busts the teacher's union and makes participation voluntary, I will keep my membership. And I am a Republican.

Here is why I do NOT belong to a union (and haven't since I realized I have brains of my own):

1. My own union brother crew-mates told me to go and f**k myself when I needed their help.

2. Once I was out of the union, I could negotiate my own pay. And as long as I did that with respect and dignity, my broken English did not matter. I retained my job and got my raise.

3. When union thugs slashed my tires in the company parking lot, the company replaced them for me.

4. I believe in equal opportunity, not equal outcome.

5. I believe in earning and keeping my job not by tenure/seniority but by proving my worth.

6. I believe that my union dues should support the party I prefer, not as determined by my millionaire union executives.

7. I believe that all votes regarding union business should be SECRET. If it is good enough for the country, it should be good enough for the union.

8. I believe in MYSELF, not some thug who demands fealty for life.

9. I believe that I CAN speak for myself.

10. I am retired now, after a successful union-free 37 and a half years with the same company, that gave me a chance to succeed in my own way, so, just like Rhett Buttler, I don't give a damn.

And, BTW, the reason I adored Reagan so much that I traveled several hundred miles to pay tribute to him in the Summer of 2004, was the guts he displayed to get rid of useless chaff air traffic controllers. Just like Scott Walker.

 

[ClosedCaption]

Why We Need Unions

If you've ever asked for a raise at work, you should understand the concept of leverage: to the extent that your employer needs you, you have it, and you're able to get something (increased wages) for it; to the extent that your employer considers you replaceable, you lack it, and therefore have no way to improve your own position. In the retail and service industries, employees lack leverage almost by definition. Anyone who makes trouble can simply be tossed out and replaced. Unions give those employees leverage. That leverage is a means to a fair wage. Not an outrageous, outsized wage; a fair wage. Any union that bankrupts the parent company is a failure, because all the union members end up unemployed. It is in the interest of unions to achieve the best possible conditions for workers that still allow the company to flourish. A union does not throw off the balance of power in the workplace—lack of a union does.

Large corporations are machines designed to make money for shareholders. They do it well. To expect them to do anything but minimize wages and maximize profit is to misunderstand their nature. The most basic sense of decency and respect for human rights dictates that there must be some mechanism by which the workers—the humans—can assert their interests. Otherwise they will be crushed by the machine. It's all very plain to see.

A farmer who had a quarrelsome family called his sons and told them to lay a bunch of sticks before him.

Then, after laying the sticks parallel to one another and binding them, he challenged his sons, one after one, to pick up the bundle and break it.

They all tried, but in vain.

Then, untying the bundle, he gave them the sticks to break one by one. This they did with the greatest ease.

Then said the father, "Thus, my sons, as long as you remain united, you are a match for anything, but differ and separate, and you are undone."

Take two posts and make one a bundle of sticks and the other one stick. Which do you think will be strongest?

Maybe you think you explained the concept of "leverage" but you didn't. You need to explain how leverage works by intimidation and physical threats. One example of leverage is when municipal unions threaten strikes unless taxpayers fork over more cash to fund lavish retirement benefits. Teachers who called in sick to riot and physically intimidate the governor of Wisconsin showed how it's done. The problem for the unions is that Americans are smart enough to understand the concept of leverage.

You seem to believe that intimidation will go away once unions are done away with? Who will have the leverage and be able to intimidate then? Think about it

 

[buckeye45_73]

What you union sympathizers don't understand is that the jobs belong to the CORPORATIONS not to you.

To have a truly free market, it MUST be reasonably regulated, and in our democracy many people regard minimum wage laws to be part of a well regulated market.


Minmum wage is horrible, I hate those laws more than anything.

You want to live in a third world country where people work 60 hours a week for subsistence wages, well go THERE. Dont bring that shit HERE.

I'm with you on that, 8 hours a day is enough to expect out of me. I really cant see politicians trying to push that, i'm pretty sure that would go down in flames, really fast, kinda like the amnesty bill.

 

[ClosedCaption]

To all those who think that the billionaires just want unions to be reasonable think again. Let's look at ALEC for a moment as they were the authors of the public union busting bill, What the hell does a lobbying group serving America's biggest corporations care about public unions? They don't but you have to start somewhere in a mission to destroy unions as a political force in America. We are not dealing with reasonable people, they want nothing less than the end of collective bargaining in America.

Look dude, I've already shown a private company (fed ex) pays better wages than a union company (UPS) in the same industry. IF you want to be in a union, awesome, but people should not be coerced. I mean after all unions are to help the little guy? not make a union boss rich?
I live in TN and wages arent any different than in OHIO, TN is right to work and Ohio is unionized. no difference, other than in TN I dont take money out of my paycheck and give it to some polish or italitan thug.

Why do you assume this is how unions work? While the repubs say that paying CEO's more money will result in Trickle down, suddenly you reverse when it comes to unions. Unions can help the little guy AND pay the boss too, cant they?

Or are only unions supposed to pay the bosses the same as the employees?