Simple Question: Did we (USA) win Iraq War?

[The Rabbi]

And Saddam was killing and hurting people in Iraq for over 25 years. At least we have turned their government over to them and for the first time in history they are actually free to decide for themselves what they want in their country. As a people.

We killed and injured far far far far more people than Saddam. Do you see the problem? If you want to justify invading iraq based on saddam killing iraqis then you must advocate a nation invades and occupies america. Or were the iraqis we killed somehow less dead than those saddam killed?


As for claiming we gave iraq to iraqis......huh? You can't be serious. First of all you have to know we are not letting iraq do anything without approval. Second, how the hell can you claim they are free while a foreign military occupation is up their ass?


The real kicker? Claiming iraq is free for the first time. Apparently you are not aware this is the first time Iraq has had a Constitution with democratic elections.

War is hell, actual combat is a Mother..........
People die in a war. Bush and Rumsfeld had a perfect plan for taking Iraq. And it did work almost flawlessly. It was the occupation and insurgency where they screwed it up.
And Iraq has had 2 elections or more, I suppose you think we fixed those too. They wrote their own constitution.

Yes they have a constitution and democratic elections, For the first time ever. Freedom and Liberty. Just as I said.

And as far as our troops, well we are still in Germany and they don't seem to mind so much. Though over half the troops we had in Germany in 1991 are no longer there. The barracks and housing areas were turned over to the German Government who made them into slums for Turks and what not.

We will leave iraq when the time is right (I hope) and not a minute before.

But remember that we lost that war. I guess losing means demolishing another country's military, ousting their rulers and putting them on trial, and installing a regime that is more representative of the people. Defeat has always been defined this way. Didn't you know that?

 

[CurveLight]

And Saddam was killing and hurting people in Iraq for over 25 years. At least we have turned their government over to them and for the first time in history they are actually free to decide for themselves what they want in their country. As a people.

We killed and injured far far far far more people than Saddam. Do you see the problem? If you want to justify invading iraq based on saddam killing iraqis then you must advocate a nation invades and occupies america. Or were the iraqis we killed somehow less dead than those saddam killed?


As for claiming we gave iraq to iraqis......huh? You can't be serious. First of all you have to know we are not letting iraq do anything without approval. Second, how the hell can you claim they are free while a foreign military occupation is up their ass?


The real kicker? Claiming iraq is free for the first time. Apparently you are not aware this is the first time Iraq has had a Constitution with democratic elections.

War is hell, actual combat is a Mother..........
People die in a war. Bush and Rumsfeld had a perfect plan for taking Iraq. And it did work almost flawlessly. It was the occupation and insurgency where they screwed it up.
And Iraq has had 2 elections or more, I suppose you think we fixed those too. They wrote their own constitution.

Yes they have a constitution and democratic elections, For the first time ever. Freedom and Liberty. Just as I said.

And as far as our troops, well we are still in Germany and they don't seem to mind so much. Though over half the troops we had in Germany in 1991 are no longer there. The barracks and housing areas were turned over to the German Government who made them into slums for Turks and what not.

We will leave iraq when the time is right (I hope) and not a minute before.

Earlier I saw you say "God iam glad I retired." Guess what? You aren't the only one.

"Well, Bernard Lewis, the great expert at Princeton [University] on the Middle East, and I wrote a piece in The Wall Street Journal a couple of weeks ago that said why not use the 1925 constitution and appoint the governing council as the senate under the constitution? It's appointed by a constitutional monarch. And there's an elected parliament under it. They can amend the constitution."
CNN.com - Woolsey: Why not use 1925 constitution? - Nov. 12, 2003


Now that we have established your time in retirement has not been spent getting educated on Iraq let's move on to your claim of a "perfect plan" for taking iraq. First of all there were no insurgents. It is impossible for insurgents to exist in a nation that has no government and is under control by a foreign military occupation.

in·sur·gent *(n-sûrjnt)

adj.

1. Rising in revolt against established authority, especially a government.

2. Rebelling against the leadership of a political party.
insurgent - definition of insurgent by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.


You say they had a perfect plan for taking iraq but screwed up the occupation and (the ignorant term) insurgency. Golly gee gomer.......what the fuck are you talking about? Do you even know? The invasion and occupation were designed to justify permanent military bases. If we had actually tried to forge a coherent governing structure without much fighting it would have been damn hard to justify keeping over 100,000 Troops on the ground.

Then you further embarrass yourself by mentioning WW2. In that era we fought against imperialism and many germans were united against hitler and glad it was over. There were also several cultural similarities which helped our post war reconstruction period. In this case it is we who are the imperialists. Do you have any idea what is going on?

 

[CurveLight]

We killed and injured far far far far more people than Saddam. Do you see the problem? If you want to justify invading iraq based on saddam killing iraqis then you must advocate a nation invades and occupies america. Or were the iraqis we killed somehow less dead than those saddam killed?


As for claiming we gave iraq to iraqis......huh? You can't be serious. First of all you have to know we are not letting iraq do anything without approval. Second, how the hell can you claim they are free while a foreign military occupation is up their ass?


The real kicker? Claiming iraq is free for the first time. Apparently you are not aware this is the first time Iraq has had a Constitution with democratic elections.

War is hell, actual combat is a Mother..........
People die in a war. Bush and Rumsfeld had a perfect plan for taking Iraq. And it did work almost flawlessly. It was the occupation and insurgency where they screwed it up.
And Iraq has had 2 elections or more, I suppose you think we fixed those too. They wrote their own constitution.

Yes they have a constitution and democratic elections, For the first time ever. Freedom and Liberty. Just as I said.

And as far as our troops, well we are still in Germany and they don't seem to mind so much. Though over half the troops we had in Germany in 1991 are no longer there. The barracks and housing areas were turned over to the German Government who made them into slums for Turks and what not.

We will leave iraq when the time is right (I hope) and not a minute before.

But remember that we lost that war. I guess losing means demolishing another country's military, ousting their rulers and putting them on trial, and installing a regime that is more representative of the people. Defeat has always been defined this way. Didn't you know that?

Installing an Islamic Theocracy that put iraqi women back in the 18th century is a good thing? Do you realize under their Sharia law wives can be legally raped now? Go try and actually fucking learn something instead of waving your bullshit like it's a basket of rose petals.

Don't forget....I asked you about 8 times to define victory and you ignored it every time.

 

[CurveLight]

And Saddam was killing and hurting people in Iraq for over 25 years. At least we have turned their government over to them and for the first time in history they are actually free to decide for themselves what they want in their country. As a people.

Yeah and we SUPPORTED Saddam for 25 years. Does that make us complicant in the slaughter the Iraqi Kurds? Did you know that during GWII that the CIA was arming the Norther Kurds and giving them intel to overthrow Saddam? Did you know that after GWI we left the Kurds with their dicks hanging out. We ABANDONED THEM!!

Actually , yes I did know all this and more. That doesn't mean I supported it. I retired in 93 and this was part of the reason I retired when I did.

From what I've seen it looks more like you were forced out under Clinton's draw down plan. But you're right...citing the Kurds as "part" of the reason sounds better. Much much better.

 

[johnrocks]

That war never was "winnable", a huge waste of lives and resources.

 

[The Rabbi]

War is hell, actual combat is a Mother..........
People die in a war. Bush and Rumsfeld had a perfect plan for taking Iraq. And it did work almost flawlessly. It was the occupation and insurgency where they screwed it up.
And Iraq has had 2 elections or more, I suppose you think we fixed those too. They wrote their own constitution.

Yes they have a constitution and democratic elections, For the first time ever. Freedom and Liberty. Just as I said.

And as far as our troops, well we are still in Germany and they don't seem to mind so much. Though over half the troops we had in Germany in 1991 are no longer there. The barracks and housing areas were turned over to the German Government who made them into slums for Turks and what not.

We will leave iraq when the time is right (I hope) and not a minute before.

But remember that we lost that war. I guess losing means demolishing another country's military, ousting their rulers and putting them on trial, and installing a regime that is more representative of the people. Defeat has always been defined this way. Didn't you know that?

Installing an Islamic Theocracy that put iraqi women back in the 18th century is a good thing? Do you realize under their Sharia law wives can be legally raped now? Go try and actually fucking learn something instead of waving your bullshit like it's a basket of rose petals.

Don't forget....I asked you about 8 times to define victory and you ignored it every time.

By that measure I guess the war against the Japanese was a failure too, since the Emperor retained his throne.
Why not give up beating this dead horse and get a fucking clue?

 

[Varth Dader]

Don't forget....I asked you about 8 times to define victory and you ignored it every time.

It's called reverse engineering : Look at the results... that is victory!

Don't be so hung up on minor details like trying to define where the goalposts are.

We shoot the ball... VICTORY! (The goalposts will adjust)

 

[The Rabbi]

Don't forget....I asked you about 8 times to define victory and you ignored it every time.

It's called reverse engineering : Look at the results... that is victory!

Don't be so hung up on minor details like trying to define where the goalposts are.

We shoot the ball... VICTORY! (The goalposts will adjust)

Could you define victory in a way that would exclude the U.S. achievement in Iraq? Could you do it in a way that will pass the laugh test?

 

[Sunni Man]

Our so called victory in Iraq

Is along the same lines as our success in Vietnam

The future history books will view Iraq as a total failure.

 

[CurveLight]

But remember that we lost that war. I guess losing means demolishing another country's military, ousting their rulers and putting them on trial, and installing a regime that is more representative of the people. Defeat has always been defined this way. Didn't you know that?

Installing an Islamic Theocracy that put iraqi women back in the 18th century is a good thing? Do you realize under their Sharia law wives can be legally raped now? Go try and actually fucking learn something instead of waving your bullshit like it's a basket of rose petals.

Don't forget....I asked you about 8 times to define victory and you ignored it every time.

By that measure I guess the war against the Japanese was a failure too, since the Emperor retained his throne.
Why not give up beating this dead horse and get a fucking clue?

How do manage to come up with analogies that are more clueless than the previous ones? The Emperor had absolutely no power. None. His office stayed open purely for imagery. Somehow......fucking mysteriously stupid....you try to compare that to our helping create a government that makes it legal to RAPE WOMEN! What in the fuck man!?! Dude....just pretend your computer broke and you couldn't access this thread anymore. That would be more honorable than digging new canyons of stupidity.

 

[CurveLight]

Don't forget....I asked you about 8 times to define victory and you ignored it every time.

It's called reverse engineering : Look at the results... that is victory!

Don't be so hung up on minor details like trying to define where the goalposts are.

We shoot the ball... VICTORY! (The goalposts will adjust)

Could you define victory in a way that would exclude the U.S. achievement in Iraq? Could you do it in a way that will pass the laugh test?

You consider it an achievement to create a Theocracy where polygamy and spousal rape are legal? What do you consider pedophilia to be? Excellent early childhood education?

 

[Sunni Man]

It's called reverse engineering : Look at the results... that is victory!

Don't be so hung up on minor details like trying to define where the goalposts are.

We shoot the ball... VICTORY! (The goalposts will adjust)

Could you define victory in a way that would exclude the U.S. achievement in Iraq? Could you do it in a way that will pass the laugh test?

You consider it an achievement to create a Theocracy where polygamy and spousal rape are legal?

spousal rape is legal

What does that mean?

 

[CurveLight]

Could you define victory in a way that would exclude the U.S. achievement in Iraq? Could you do it in a way that will pass the laugh test?

You consider it an achievement to create a Theocracy where polygamy and spousal rape are legal?

spousal rape is legal

What does that mean?

Think of the Old Testament. It reduces women to property and means it is legally impossible for her to have consensual sex. She is never allowed to say no. In the OT there are two clear examples of this in action. In one case the punishment for a man raping a virgin is he must marry her and pay her father the going rate for Virgins. The other more familiar yet overlooked example is Sodom and Gomorrah. When Lot offered his virgin daughters to the crowd of men, women, and children he was essentially trying to pay them off. Virgin females were one of the highest forms of currency. This has happened in Iraq and Afghanistan since our occupations began.
Karzai reviews 'spousal rape' law - President Hamid Karzai - Zimbio


However, the US is not entirely innocent of this either as Arizona has spousal rape as a misdemeanor and the legislators refused to make spousal rape a felony. It kind of makes sense in a twisted way when compared to places like Texas where it is legal for a 50 year old to marry and fuck a 13 year old.
Arizona: SPOUSAL RAPE BILL DIES | Crime Control Digest | Find Articles at BNET

 

[The Rabbi]

I'm not sure whether you are more ignorant of the Bible or of foreign affairs. But it's close.

 

[CurveLight]

I'm not sure whether you are more ignorant of the Bible or of foreign affairs. But it's close.

You're probably one of the geniuses that goes around telling people S + G was about homosexuality on some level.

As for foreign affairs....did you forget you just tried to compare the propaganda of Japan's emperor to legalized rape? How do you do it? Is it because you don't have to look anyone in the eyes? How else could you explain saying some of the dumbest rosie odonnel shit followed by accusing others of being ignorant?

 

[The Rabbi]

I'm not sure whether you are more ignorant of the Bible or of foreign affairs. But it's close.

You're probably one of the geniuses that goes around telling people S + G was about homosexuality on some level.

As for foreign affairs....did you forget you just tried to compare the propaganda of Japan's emperor to legalized rape? How do you do it? Is it because you don't have to look anyone in the eyes? How else could you explain saying some of the dumbest rosie odonnel shit followed by accusing others of being ignorant?

Given that it's explicit in the text it's hard to refute.
But someone who can redefine victory as defeat is an easy mark for satire.

 

[mdn2000]

History on Iraq is far from over.

The biggest question of success is religous.

Which side will win, Shia, Wahhabi-Sunni, Sunni, Moderate-Sunni, Iranian-Shia, Kurd-Sunni, or will the country be democratic and provide liberty for all people.

Can these different religions live in harmony or must they fight one another until the death.

We cannot be there policemen so the immediate question must be answered, will they all get along or not.

Iran has a historic right to Iraq, all who worship Islam have a religous right to Iraq, will Iraq be able to accept all these different factions or not.

 

[The Rabbi]

History on Iraq is far from over.

The biggest question of success is religous.

Which side will win, Shia, Wahhabi-Sunni, Sunni, Moderate-Sunni, Iranian-Shia, Kurd-Sunni, or will the country be democratic and provide liberty for all people.

Can these different religions live in harmony or must they fight one another until the death.

We cannot be there policemen so the immediate question must be answered, will they all get along or not.

Iran has a historic right to Iraq, all who worship Islam have a religous right to Iraq, will Iraq be able to accept all these different factions or not.

News yeserday was that they agreed on a framework for democratic elections in January. So they appear to be learning how to negotiate and work with each other.
So much for the "we lost" doomsayers.

 

[Varth Dader]

Don't forget....I asked you about 8 times to define victory and you ignored it every time.

It's called reverse engineering : Look at the results... that is victory!

Don't be so hung up on minor details like trying to define where the goalposts are.

We shoot the ball... VICTORY! (The goalposts will adjust)

Could you define victory in a way that would exclude the U.S. achievement in Iraq? Could you do it in a way that will pass the laugh test?

Like I wrote earlier, I don't think what we have right now is "victory", considering the terrorism that is still going on and that is a post Saddam phenomenon, but maybe in the future it will be clear that we (or really the Iraqui) won.

 

[The Rabbi]

I guess Israel never won a war then because terrorism is still going on there. And Spain never won its revolution because they still have terrorist incidents. The Soviet Union is still standing because they continue to experience terrorism. The communists did not win the civil war in China in 1948 because they are still experiencing terrorism from the Uighers.

Do you honestly believe that???