Simple Question: Did we (USA) win Iraq War?

[SFC Ollie]

it's not about oil consumption, it's about distribution

Wolfowitz wanted to go to Iraq to flood the market with oil and break the Saudis and OPEC in general

That failed MISERABLY. Mainly because everyone else in the administration preferred high oil prices for their friends and didn't push for stability, only CONTROL of Iraq's oil.

So you believe that Bush believed that the world would allow us to steal control of Iraqs oil? Contrary to popular belief, President Bush was not that stupid.

Perhaps you could tell me what cos got the oil contracts to the Iraqi oil.

Actually I was looking for that but haven't found it by company .....YET.....

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Shock and awe a great way to lose friends and aillinate people.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Get back to me and we can discuss WHY we went into Iraq to get rid of a scumbag that GHW, CHENEY, and RUMMY all said would be a DISASTER of a plan. Why do you think we didn't go into Baghdad during GWI? Let me guess we didn't have enough fuel to make it. Ask yourself WHY GHW, CHENEY, and RUMMY chose NOT to oust Saddam. They DID have some pretty reasonable reasons you know, most of which came TRUE when we did oust Saddam. Oh and disbanding the Iraqi army.......GREAT FUCKING PLAN!!!

 

[SFC Ollie]

We went in and BRUTILIZED a country with a broken military and some of you are PROUD of that? We are no better than Saddam attacking Kuwait; it is all about the oil because it sure as HELL wasn't about WMD or Iraqi links with Al Qeada......Saddam was SECULAR and HATED OBL. Remember we got our "intel" from a guy called "CURVE BALL" who was an exile from Iraq.....Not a very trustworthy source.

Damn, so who exactly got all that Oil that this was all about?

Fact:
The USA gets as much as 4% of their imported oil from Iraq. That would be just over 1% of the oil that we use everyday. We could have got that with our own oil a whole lot easier than starting a war.

SO many people simply refuse to think.

Exactly, and their names are Bush, Cheney, Libby, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz...need I go on? If we didn't invade Iraq, sacrifice the lives of over 4,000 American service men and women, and five times that number with life long disabilities, why did we invade and occupy Iraq for six years after "Mission Accomplished"?
Please, NCO, explain why. What did we gain, and what did we lose?

First off, why is it so difficult to understand that the Ships Mission was accomplished?

What did we gain? Hopefully we will gain some stability in the Middle East. What did Iraq Gain? Everything!

No news is good News

You won't read it in the morning paper or see it on the evening news, but the U.S. military has dramatically - and perhaps irreversibly - turned the corner in Iraq, as the nonpartisan Brookings Institution details in it's Iraq index:

* Iraq rates forth in the region in political freedom, behind Israel, Lebanon, and Morocco.

* Under Saddam Hussein, there were no commercial TV stations and no independent newspapers; by 2006 there were 54 commercial TV stations and 268 Independent newspapers and magazines.

*Pre-war Iraq had just 833,000 telephone subscribers; today there are 17.7 million cellular and 1.3 million land line phone subscribers.

* Attacks on energy installations and personnel have fallen from 30 per month in late 2004 to one per month in 2009.

* The size of Iraqs security force has grown from 30,000 in mid 2003 to 589,000 in late 2008.

* Monthly U.S. troop fatalities that once were as high as 137 now are in the single digits and low teens.

Iraq Index - Saban Center for Middle East Policy - - Brookings Institution

 

[SFC Ollie]

Get back to me and we can discuss WHY we went into Iraq to get rid of a scumbag that GHW, CHENEY, and RUMMY all said would be a DISASTER of a plan. Why do you think we didn't go into Baghdad during GWI? Let me guess we didn't have enough fuel to make it. Ask yourself WHY GHW, CHENEY, and RUMMY chose NOT to oust Saddam. They DID have some pretty reasonable reasons you know, most of which came TRUE when we did oust Saddam. Oh and disbanding the Iraqi army.......GREAT FUCKING PLAN!!!

Now you are actually thinking (at least some) Yes in hindsight disbanding the Iraqi Army in totality was the dumbest thing they did.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Damn, so who exactly got all that Oil that this was all about?

Fact:
The USA gets as much as 4% of their imported oil from Iraq. That would be just over 1% of the oil that we use everyday. We could have got that with our own oil a whole lot easier than starting a war.

SO many people simply refuse to think.

Exactly, and their names are Bush, Cheney, Libby, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz...need I go on? If we didn't invade Iraq, sacrifice the lives of over 4,000 American service men and women, and five times that number with life long disabilities, why did we invade and occupy Iraq for six years after "Mission Accomplished"?
Please, NCO, explain why. What did we gain, and what did we lose?

First off, why is it so difficult to understand that the Ships Mission was accomplished?

What did we gain? Hopefully we will gain some stability in the Middle East. What did Iraq Gain? Everything!

No news is good News

You won't read it in the morning paper or see it on the evening news, but the U.S. military has dramatically - and perhaps irreversibly - turned the corner in Iraq, as the nonpartisan Brookings Institution details in it's Iraq index:

* Iraq rates forth in the region in political freedom, behind Israel, Lebanon, and Morocco.

* Under Saddam Hussein, there were no commercial TV stations and no independent newspapers; by 2006 there were 54 commercial TV stations and 268 Independent newspapers and magazines.

*Pre-war Iraq had just 833,000 telephone subscribers; today there are 17.7 million cellular and 1.3 million land line phone subscribers.

* Attacks on energy installations and personnel have fallen from 30 per month in late 2004 to one per month in 2009.

* The size of Iraqs security force has grown from 30,000 in mid 2003 to 589,000 in late 2008.

* Monthly U.S. troop fatalities that once were as high as 137 now are in the single digits and low teens.

Iraq Index - Saban Center for Middle East Policy - - Brookings Institution

You know Ollie I would LOVE to beleive that but since Sunni and Shia have been killing each other for a MILLENIA I don't think they will join hands and sing Kombaia together. The way Iraq stayed STABLE was because the MINORITY ruled the MAJORITY and I fear for the minority when we leave. There will be NOTHING standing in the way of the minority being BRUTILIZED!! UN sanctions? Yeah that will get it done. International outrage. Ditto. The US going back IN to Iraq. BINGO!

 

[SFC Ollie]

Exactly, and their names are Bush, Cheney, Libby, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz...need I go on? If we didn't invade Iraq, sacrifice the lives of over 4,000 American service men and women, and five times that number with life long disabilities, why did we invade and occupy Iraq for six years after "Mission Accomplished"?
Please, NCO, explain why. What did we gain, and what did we lose?

First off, why is it so difficult to understand that the Ships Mission was accomplished?

What did we gain? Hopefully we will gain some stability in the Middle East. What did Iraq Gain? Everything!

No news is good News

You won't read it in the morning paper or see it on the evening news, but the U.S. military has dramatically - and perhaps irreversibly - turned the corner in Iraq, as the nonpartisan Brookings Institution details in it's Iraq index:

* Iraq rates forth in the region in political freedom, behind Israel, Lebanon, and Morocco.

* Under Saddam Hussein, there were no commercial TV stations and no independent newspapers; by 2006 there were 54 commercial TV stations and 268 Independent newspapers and magazines.

*Pre-war Iraq had just 833,000 telephone subscribers; today there are 17.7 million cellular and 1.3 million land line phone subscribers.

* Attacks on energy installations and personnel have fallen from 30 per month in late 2004 to one per month in 2009.

* The size of Iraqs security force has grown from 30,000 in mid 2003 to 589,000 in late 2008.

* Monthly U.S. troop fatalities that once were as high as 137 now are in the single digits and low teens.

Iraq Index - Saban Center for Middle East Policy - - Brookings Institution

You know Ollie I would LOVE to beleive that but since Sunni and Shia have been killing each other for a MILLENIA I don't think they will join hands and sing Kombaia together. The way Iraq stayed STABLE was because the MINORITY ruled the MAJORITY and I fear for the minority when we leave. There will be NOTHING standing in the way of the minority being BRUTILIZED!! UN sanctions? Yeah that will get it done. International outrage. Ditto. The US going back IN to Iraq. BINGO!

That is a problem, Which is why I have always been against any timetable for withdrawal.
We shall see.....

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Get back to me and we can discuss WHY we went into Iraq to get rid of a scumbag that GHW, CHENEY, and RUMMY all said would be a DISASTER of a plan. Why do you think we didn't go into Baghdad during GWI? Let me guess we didn't have enough fuel to make it. Ask yourself WHY GHW, CHENEY, and RUMMY chose NOT to oust Saddam. They DID have some pretty reasonable reasons you know, most of which came TRUE when we did oust Saddam. Oh and disbanding the Iraqi army.......GREAT FUCKING PLAN!!!

Now you are actually thinking (at least some) Yes in hindsight disbanding the Iraqi Army in totality was the dumbest thing they did.

Fair enough. You see I don't think Bush EVER wanted to bring harm or lower our standing in the world I think he did what he TRUELY thought was right but his goal was coopted by others like those leaders from PNAC. Now I say to you as well that I don't think OBAMA would do ANYTHING to harm our country the way Beck and Limbaugh accuse him of doing. I thing virtually EVERYONE who posts here wants what is BEST for our country because we LOVE our country. We differ on WHAT we think is best for our country but we ALL share a common desire to be the GREATEST nation on Earth. Some already think we ARE but we could do SO much better in SO many ways.


Just so you understand THAT is what I want for my country.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Get back to me and we can discuss WHY we went into Iraq to get rid of a scumbag that GHW, CHENEY, and RUMMY all said would be a DISASTER of a plan. Why do you think we didn't go into Baghdad during GWI? Let me guess we didn't have enough fuel to make it. Ask yourself WHY GHW, CHENEY, and RUMMY chose NOT to oust Saddam. They DID have some pretty reasonable reasons you know, most of which came TRUE when we did oust Saddam. Oh and disbanding the Iraqi army.......GREAT FUCKING PLAN!!!

Now you are actually thinking (at least some) Yes in hindsight disbanding the Iraqi Army in totality was the dumbest thing they did.

Fair enough. You see I don't think Bush EVER wanted to bring harm or lower our standing in the world I think he did what he TRUELY thought was right but his goal was coopted by others like those leaders from PNAC. Now I say to you as well that I don't think OBAMA would do ANYTHING to harm our country the way Beck and Limbaugh accuse him of doing. I thing virtually EVERYONE who posts here wants what is BEST for our country because we LOVE our country. We differ on WHAT we think is best for our country but we ALL share a common desire to be the GREATEST nation on Earth. Some already think we ARE but we could do SO much better in SO many ways.


Just so you understand THAT is what I want for my country.

Well that has to be one of the more intelligent posts I've seen coming from the Anti-Bush crowd.

I do believe that Bush did what he believed was right. And I do disagree immensely with most everything that Mr Obama has done so far.But then I didn't agree with Bush all the time either.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Ollie I would LOVE to hear your take on my more or less troops Afghanistan. Since you are Ret military I would like to see if you agree with my take I will post my basic premise here.

I think we need MORE special ops troops NOT more troops overall. I just don't like the way that turned out for the Soviets........ROWS of rusting hulking heavy armor and the Soviets BROKEN by a FAR less advanced military. Now I know we gave them stingers and so forth but still I don't think you can win a war in Afghanistan with conventional military tactics. As I said on my thread you can't take an Abrams M1 up a donkey trail. I also don't think you could EVER drop enough bombs or artilery to force the taliban out of the mountains and caves.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Now you are actually thinking (at least some) Yes in hindsight disbanding the Iraqi Army in totality was the dumbest thing they did.

Fair enough. You see I don't think Bush EVER wanted to bring harm or lower our standing in the world I think he did what he TRUELY thought was right but his goal was coopted by others like those leaders from PNAC. Now I say to you as well that I don't think OBAMA would do ANYTHING to harm our country the way Beck and Limbaugh accuse him of doing. I thing virtually EVERYONE who posts here wants what is BEST for our country because we LOVE our country. We differ on WHAT we think is best for our country but we ALL share a common desire to be the GREATEST nation on Earth. Some already think we ARE but we could do SO much better in SO many ways.


Just so you understand THAT is what I want for my country.

Well that has to be one of the more intelligent posts I've seen coming from the Anti-Bush crowd.

I do believe that Bush did what he believed was right. And I do disagree immensely with most everything that Mr Obama has done so far.But then I didn't agree with Bush all the time either.

The question that rests on my mind is do you beleive that Obama wants to DESTROY our country the way the likes of Beck and Limbaugh spew every day. I really do think Bush is a man of TRUE convictions though I don't share his RELIGIOUS convictions and basing US policy on what God "told" him to do. I still think he felt he was doing the RIGHT thing even the RIGHTOUS thing but I also think he had handlers with alterior motives like PNAC and although I don't think they WANTED to do harm to our country but their greed and lust for power have shown them to be rather wreckless with our countries policies.

 

[SFC Ollie]

Fair enough. You see I don't think Bush EVER wanted to bring harm or lower our standing in the world I think he did what he TRUELY thought was right but his goal was coopted by others like those leaders from PNAC. Now I say to you as well that I don't think OBAMA would do ANYTHING to harm our country the way Beck and Limbaugh accuse him of doing. I thing virtually EVERYONE who posts here wants what is BEST for our country because we LOVE our country. We differ on WHAT we think is best for our country but we ALL share a common desire to be the GREATEST nation on Earth. Some already think we ARE but we could do SO much better in SO many ways.


Just so you understand THAT is what I want for my country.

Well that has to be one of the more intelligent posts I've seen coming from the Anti-Bush crowd.

I do believe that Bush did what he believed was right. And I do disagree immensely with most everything that Mr Obama has done so far.But then I didn't agree with Bush all the time either.

The question that rests on my mind is do you beleive that Obama wants to DESTROY our country the way the likes of Beck and Limbaugh spew every day. I really do think Bush is a man of TRUE convictions though I don't share his RELIGIOUS convictions and basing US policy on what God "told" him to do. I still think he felt he was doing the RIGHT thing even the RIGHTOUS thing but I also think he had handlers with alterior motives like PNAC and although I don't think they WANTED to do harm to our country but their greed and lust for power have shown them to be rather wreckless with our countries policies.

I believe that Mr Obama wants his Liberal Utopia. I'm sure he believes that is what we should have. He is wrong but it is what he believes. I will continue to write my letters and talk on the boards to try to prevent his plans from taking our liberty. I do believe that socialism destroys liberty.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Just consider that I beleive that Obama is doing what he TRUELY, DEEPLY, and INTENSLEY feel will improve the lives of the most Americans possible and improve our standing in the view of the world. He holds a Kensian world view which many disagree with but that does NOT mean it is not the best way to improve our country for the VAST majority of Americans.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Well that has to be one of the more intelligent posts I've seen coming from the Anti-Bush crowd.

I do believe that Bush did what he believed was right. And I do disagree immensely with most everything that Mr Obama has done so far.But then I didn't agree with Bush all the time either.

The question that rests on my mind is do you beleive that Obama wants to DESTROY our country the way the likes of Beck and Limbaugh spew every day. I really do think Bush is a man of TRUE convictions though I don't share his RELIGIOUS convictions and basing US policy on what God "told" him to do. I still think he felt he was doing the RIGHT thing even the RIGHTOUS thing but I also think he had handlers with alterior motives like PNAC and although I don't think they WANTED to do harm to our country but their greed and lust for power have shown them to be rather wreckless with our countries policies.

I believe that Mr Obama wants his Liberal Utopia. I'm sure he believes that is what we should have. He is wrong but it is what he believes. I will continue to write my letters and talk on the boards to try to prevent his plans from taking our liberty. I do believe that socialism destroys liberty.

Our LIBERTY!!?? What surprises me is how many conservatives beleive that LIBERTY only applies to views THEY hold where I beleive that LIBERTY means for ALL. The "Patriot" act was the one most damaging erosion of our LIBERTIES in the history of our country. Needless to say I disagree with Obama for his support of the "Patriot" act. But if you are for LIBERTY then how do you reconcile going outside the FISA laws which were ALREADY very permisive and then call for RETROACTIVE IMMUNITY for the telcos? Not very AMERICAN in my book to use wire taps and "data mining" to spy on AMERICANS.



Gotta go but I really would like to hear your views on my other thread.


Have a good night and a happy thanksgiving my fellow American.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Under the original FISA laws ALL you had to de was go to a FISA court judge AFTER the wire tap recordings and show the judge that they are justified.


The F.B.I. misused National Security letters for personal reasons to spy on ex-girlfriends and/or the new men in their lives. Data mining sifts through EVERY comunication and "Flags" certain words for further examination. So if I called my wife and said IS LAMB o.k. for dinner and told her I picked up some lip BALM I could be "Flaged" for further investigation. Not a cool way to use our intelligence resources in my LIBERAL opinion.

 

[The_Halfmoon]

Damn, so who exactly got all that Oil that this was all about?

Fact:
The USA gets as much as 4% of their imported oil from Iraq. That would be just over 1% of the oil that we use everyday. We could have got that with our own oil a whole lot easier than starting a war.

SO many people simply refuse to think.

it's not about oil consumption, it's about distribution

Wolfowitz wanted to go to Iraq to flood the market with oil and break the Saudis and OPEC in general

That failed MISERABLY. Mainly because everyone else in the administration preferred high oil prices for their friends and didn't push for stability, only CONTROL of Iraq's oil.

So you believe that Bush believed that the world would allow us to steal control of Iraqs oil? Contrary to popular belief, President Bush was not that stupid.

Prior to invading Iraq, Saddam controlled that oil. They just wanted to get the oil flowing again. It didn't matter to them whether or not American or Chinese companies were benefiting, because the goal was to flood the market with oil. This was the neo-con plan for the most part. They wanted to break OPEC once and for all. Nobody in the world wanted Saddam to keep control of his own oil at that time.

But that was just one group pushing for war. There were the other usual suspects also, such as the companies that wanted contracts to rebuild Iraq and the hawks that wanted the 14 bases for use around the middle east (specifically for Iran). But these were scavengers taking advantage of the neo-con initiative.

The entire thing fell apart because they didn't understand the difference between Shia and Sunni Muslims. I didn't know at the time either, and my family's mainly Muslim, so it's not grand stupidity but just a detail that turned out to be quite significant. It was a poorly planned affair, that could have turned out very well if properly implemented. I don't doubt that they had the best of intentions in turning Baghdad into a Dubai on steroids... but it didn't work out that way.

 

[The_Halfmoon]

here's one article that deals with the issue better than I ever could:

Asia Times Online :: Middle East News, Iraq, Iran current affairs

"Oil as a geostrategic factor also figured in the neo-conservative mission to unseat Saddam as the first step of politically transforming the Middle East. Removal of his regime was seen as crucial to undermining the other established oil powers in the region, Saudi Arabia and Iran. These states are, respectively, the largest and second-largest oil producers in the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC), a group dominated by Middle East oil exporters.

A US-friendly Iraq that abandoned OPEC and pumped more oil would, some neo-conservatives argued, weaken Saudi Arabia and Iran and break the grip of OPEC on the global oil market. In this way, so the theory went, the petrodollars that strengthen the grip on power of the House of Saud and Iran's mullahs and fund terrorist networks in the Middle East would dry up. The mission to remake the Middle East could be done by flooding the market with Iraqi oil. "

 

[SFC Ollie]

It would have been so much easier to flood the market with Alaskan Oil.

 

[Cold Fusion38]

Sadly Alaskan oil is FAR to high in sulfer and we don't have the refineries to process it.

 

[The Rabbi]

All we had to do was take over Kuwait while we had hundreds of thousands of troops there and take their oil.
Or all we had to do was remove sanctions and we could have had as much Iraqi oil as we wanted.
The oil card is one of the biggest canards of the Left on the Iraq war. That some people still believe it is testament to the truism that some people will believe anything.