So let's stipulate that Obama didn't lie.....So What?

[justoffal]

It's always good to examine the facts over and over again in a case that grows to the confligration levels such as the ACA has fostered in this particular instance of poltical implosion.

1.) Let's stipulate that prior to the ACA that there was a problem with spiraling Health care costs....because there was and still is.

2.) Let's stipulate that had the Insurance companies not engaged in many shady practices for a few decades prior to the ACA debate that the ACA would probably never have gotten off the ground legislatively. Remember that Hillary tried this unsucessfully twenty years ago and back then the problems with insurance and healthcare costs were just beginning.

3.) Let's stipulate that Obama sincerely miscalculated the size of the cancelation wave of policies that had been established after the law was passed and that he did not foresee the backlash even among his own party members as this law began to take effect. Let's throw in some Insurance company villainy for good measure and say that they took the opportunity to shove it up his poop shoot.... even if it's not totally justified...just sayin..

Let's take these positions and Give the Super Left wing shill-Rag, Salon, a smidgeon of credit for their undying dedication to their super-hero in chief Obama.

No, Obama didn?t lie to you about your health care plan - Salon.com

My Question is.... So What?

Something just happened that caused shock and surprise amongst many millions of unsuspecting Insurance customers and this effect is just beginning and is on it's way to gettiing much worse. Remember that the employer mandate is still coming with it's wave of cancelations that will hit a fresh bunch of highly pissed off people of all poltical parties.

Let's stipulate that the ACA does and will allow policies that were established prior to the passage of the law to remain intact and that it was the stupidity of the dumbass American people who missed that important point when the Great one was making his history making speeches that include the now and forever infamous " If you like your policy you can keep it " gaffe.......

Once again my question is...So what??

Annnnnd.....what does it mean to be a leader? To show poltical and national leadership? Could that possibly mean not leading your constituents ( both sympathetic and unsympathetic constituents because that's what the job means) into a blind alley even if you didn't mean to do it? Is it possible that the American people are upset becuse they percieve an epoch failure in Presidential leadership here? Is it possible that fixing that sore could mean taking some extra time to explain things thoroughly even if you suck at explanations??..hear, hear!!..... Maybe foregoing one of those super expensive vacations or putting off a couple rounds of golf to make it at least look like you give at least one, teenie-tiny flying fu~ck? Yeah...how about that one huh??...I mean can we spare the time? Are we inconveniencing you Mr President...sir??

But that my friends this is not easy! Especially if you don't really give a flying fu~ck. It is very difficult to face a nation full of dummies...especially if that's the way you really feel about them and tell them that the huge mistake that was just made was really their own STUPID fault. Saying otherwise would be hypocrisy and we all know what that means dummies now don't we?? ( heh heh heh ...this is exactly the conundrum that the Dems are in now )

Remember that the New Deal and the Great Society are the two major social vehicles for the cultivation and proliferation of ....well.... Dummies ..... but I digress!

" Look we are really sorry that we didn't see this coming ( failure number one if it's true ) but we never promised that you could keep " Bad Apple " insurance and if that's what you thought then well...your just dumbasses! Soooo We will posture an apology for courtesy sake but we didn't reaaaaaally make any mistakes ( wink wink ) and it's not our fault that your collective IQ's are less than that of a common garden variety tomato.

Thanks and now you've gone and made me late for my Tee time!

JO

PS...

I think there is more to discover about Obama's promises..what he knew, what his office knew, and what they actually expected would happen. In the final analysis if the American people feel they were lied to....then...well....they were lied to.

Elections have consequences....and so do decisions.

 

[Katzndogz]

There is no argument if the basis is to stipulate that a lie is the truth. It's just obfuscation.

 

[The Rabbi]

There is no argument if the basis is to stipulate that a lie is the truth. It's just obfuscation.

The argument is that ACA is the biggest disaster in American domestic policy history, regardless of what Obama said about it.
That's true.
But also true is that he did in fact lie about it.
Also true is that over 90% of people with health insurance were happy with what they had
ALso true is that the number of uninsured people was fairly small, smaller than the 46M we were told
Also true is that the program was sold using lies and questionable tactics.
Also true is that program will not achieve even its stated goals
Also true is that the program's actual goal was gov't control over the health sector
Also true is that the program will be hugely expensive by several magnitudes
Also true is that Dems gamed the CBO by submitting assumptions they knew were false.

The lesson is for people to watch out for gov't promising "free" anything. They wont of course.

 

[Darkwind]

I cannot and will not make those stipulations. That would be dishonest and a lie in and of itself.

Lying really isn't My thing.

 

[NYcarbineer]

If the ACA turns out to be a net benefit to the American people regarding their healthcare, if it is in fact an improvement over the pre-ACA state of healthcare, that's all that matters.

The lying is irrelevant, because politicians lying is part of the game.

 

[Ava]

1.) "Let's stipulate that prior to the ACA that there was a problem with spiraling Health care costs....because there was and still is."

Let's stipulate that the solution to any problems the country is having in private enterprise, is none of the government's business, rather a government grab to take over a sixth of the economy, for votes for the progressive party.

The poor are poor because of bad government policies.

 

[Katzndogz]

If the ACA turns out to be a net benefit to the American people regarding their healthcare, if it is in fact an improvement over the pre-ACA state of healthcare, that's all that matters.

The lying is irrelevant, because politicians lying is part of the game.

That's what Dan Rather said when he produced the faked memos.

 

[PixieStix]

I just wish the American people would have payed attention and did some critical thinking and read as much of the bill as possible. We should never give support to something based on the word of anyone.

Can we really undo the damage that has been done?

The way I see it. Obamacare should be repealed. Period

Let the hospitals and the healthcare system be privatized and keep government out of the deal. Everything government touches turns to a big nasty mess. It always hurts the economy, therefore it hurts families.

Let people make their own decision. And people need to make decisions based on good information, not propaganda

 

[justoffal]

My angle here is to get off the argument about wheter or not the guy lied...because I think his reputation as a con man is well establishe already.

The real question is this..

DID HE FAIL?? If he did...which I do think he did....then he is responsible whether he lied or not.

JO

 

[justoffal]

Well I agree....

But I think we tend to get stuck in the non-pragmatic and ultimately unprofitable argument about his truthfulness when the more valuble target is his crediblity at a leader in general.

That issue is far more dangerous to the left than one simple untruth or lie. That's why you have major defections right now in the ranks of the leftie legislators.

JO

 

[Contumacious]

1.) Let's stipulate that prior to the ACA that there was a problem with spiraling Health care costs....because there was and still is.

The facts

1- The states have been regulating health care since the 1840's , controlling the amount of doctors in order to help the members of the American Medical Association

2- the federal government completely distorted the health care market in 1965 when it introduced medicaid and medicare. Those who were not covered by those programs found healthcare prohibitively expensive.

,

 

[justoffal]

Nothing to argue with here...

We take the good with the bad when it comes to private sector and historically it has always proved to be superior. As a system any system that favors individual functionality will have by design a superior performance and vice versa any system...such as socialism ... that favors pooling the needs of the masses against the abilities of those same masses has inferior performance and most always failure.

JO

 

[justoffal]

The ideology of the left is based on the hopeless quest for ultimate social justice. Did we get here because coporations screw people? Yes we did..... but can we really say that we have come up with a functional replacement for what we had? No....

There is always gonig to be a certain measure of harm in any process....seeking to eliminate all of it is to admit the need for God...and we know the left would rather explode into a million ideoloigical pieces before making such an admission.

JO

 

[justoffal]

You have once again reinforced one of my favorite theories...

History usually has the answers.

Good post

JO

 

[CrusaderFrank]

ObamaCare is the worst pandemic since the Spanish Flu

 

[NYcarbineer]

If the ACA turns out to be a net benefit to the American people regarding their healthcare, if it is in fact an improvement over the pre-ACA state of healthcare, that's all that matters.

The lying is irrelevant, because politicians lying is part of the game.

That's what Dan Rather said when he produced the faked memos.

The content of the memos was the truth. And you're lying about Dan Rather, which proves my point.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The ideology of the left is based on the hopeless quest for ultimate social justice. Did we get here because coporations screw people? Yes we did..... but can we really say that we have come up with a functional replacement for what we had? No....

There is always gonig to be a certain measure of harm in any process....seeking to eliminate all of it is to admit the need for God...and we know the left would rather explode into a million ideoloigical pieces before making such an admission.

JO

So you're willing to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. That's idiocy.

 

[The Rabbi]

If the ACA turns out to be a net benefit to the American people regarding their healthcare, if it is in fact an improvement over the pre-ACA state of healthcare, that's all that matters.

The lying is irrelevant, because politicians lying is part of the game.

That's what Dan Rather said when he produced the faked memos.

The content of the memos was the truth. And you're lying about Dan Rather, which proves my point.

It was not. It was a fabrication. Rather was fired over it.
See, this is why arguing with dumbshit libs is impossible. Even established facts mean nothing to them. Remind us how Gore actually won the election again.

 

[PixieStix]

If the ACA turns out to be a net benefit to the American people regarding their healthcare, if it is in fact an improvement over the pre-ACA state of healthcare, that's all that matters.

The lying is irrelevant, because politicians lying is part of the game.

That's what Dan Rather said when he produced the faked memos.

The content of the memos was the truth. And you're lying about Dan Rather, which proves my point.

^

 

[NYcarbineer]

That's what Dan Rather said when he produced the faked memos.

The content of the memos was the truth. And you're lying about Dan Rather, which proves my point.

It was not. It was a fabrication. Rather was fired over it.
See, this is why arguing with dumbshit libs is impossible. Even established facts mean nothing to them. Remind us how Gore actually won the election again.

It was a fact that Bush got preferential treatment to get into the Guard. It was a fact that Bush never actually finished his obligation in the Guard. It was a fact that Bush joined the Guard to avoid Vietnam.

All of that is irrefutable.