So What Happened To Blacks After Slavery?

[IM2]

Did IM2 say anything like the above? He quoted many academic studies, and most of them were well worth reading. When he defends Obama — a genuinely well educated man; when he uses W.E.B. Dubois as his avatar — a man who could outthink any one of us in several languages, he doesn’t show disrespect for academic achievement. Yet he gets insulted by many here just for supporting his party and the party of Obama and most African-Americans!

Attempting to correct racial disparities requires a complete and open-minded exploration of the causes for those disparities.. Blaming racism before you DO THAT is too convenient and simplistic. MANY of those causes are SYSTEMIC -- and only affect the black community in an unequal manner BECAUSE of education and economic gaps.. The Big Three being education, economic income and access to EQUAL and ACCOMMODATING justice that takes into account the special needs of folks living on the edge of economic ruin.

NOWHERE did I mention Obama.. NOWHERE did I demean Dubois or ANY OTHER black high academic achiever.. In FACT -- I've REPEATEDLY suggested that SUCCESSFUL and high achieving blacks BE used as role models.. Don't give a damn about their politics.. IM2 in the past has posted mind numbing crap about "math and science" as being "racist".. He's DISSED high acheiving blacks that dont fit his political views REPEATEDLY.. Its VERY political how he excommunicates high achieving blacks that DO NOT FIT HIS POLITICS... I don't play that game, because I'm a FIXER of things. Not a demagogue.

Fair enough. I didn’t mean you when I said people insult IM2 — and others — just for supporting “the party of Obama and most African Americans.” I am happy if you respect the intelligence and academic achievement of men like W.E.B. DuBois, who himself lived a long life in which he was at different times a Lincoln-admiring Republican, a leader of the NAACP, a Socialist and a Pan-Africanist. I haven’t been here long, haven’t seen what you say about IM2, or know you or many people here well. If I strongly disagree with IM2 about such matters in the future, I hope I will find a way to express myself in a constructive way. That is sometimes all we can do when we disagree ... especially about politics.

Can't we all just "get along" ??? Actually not really a rhetorical question.. Because after going 20 or 30 pages with some of the "black educators" here -- the most IMPORTANT thing you'll learn TP, is that they are afeared of stuff like "racial reconcilation".. Aint shopping for any improved "social interactions that might result from honest discussion.. Because IF that happened, THEY would become irrelevant.. In a Kumbaya world -- some of resident "grievance scholars" would be VERY unhappy that the PAST and history is IN the past..

Nobody here is scared of racial reconciliation but you. And you prove that with what you just told Paine. You believe that crazy shit. You are the one that cannot handle honest discussion. An honest discussion means you are able to accept that past racism has caused damage that continues now as well ads the fact that continuing racism by whites exacerbates the already unfixed damage. Instead you offer solutions like blacks moving into all white rural towns.

You are pissed...you have no path within you for forgiveness....and you weren't even alive back then.....

I am alive now and have seen 59 years of continuing white racism.

You are incapable of seeing anything else.....

Wrong. You just can't deal with a black person speaking the truth.

^^^^^^ bs ^^^^^^
IM2, you would not know the truth if it
came at you chicken fried and with
collard greens. You have been brain
washed by acid head sophists

It's funny how whites like you try telling me things. You are a white female. Maybe you should think about your condition.

OH!!!!! you mean that I should go around INCESSANTLY quoting "THE FEMININE MYSTIQUE"
and define all of the human condition and history
of the WORLD as being a matter of PERVASIVE
MYSOGYNY? ------nope!!! no thanks----I will
not be the "white female" version of
BLACK NATIONALIST IM-2

I am not a black nationalist you ignorant trash bag.. You will not see me asking for a separate black nation at any time. I will continue to demand the complete eradication of white racism, I will continue to demand that whites like you get off your sorry excuse making asses and do what it takes to rid the white community of it's racism, and I will continue to demand that the government of this country do what is necessary to fix the damage continuing white racism has wrought on the black community as well as other communities of color to include the demand for economic equality.

You are just going to have to live with that.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

This thread is specifically about what the government of these united states did to blacks after the years of slavery up until right now.

The republicans here want to take credit for ending slavery while simultaneously telling us that they should not be held responsible for what their ancestors did before they were born. In standard republican fashion everybody else must take responsibility but them. However in the 150 or so years after slavery things have happened that most of these guys don't want to discuss. It is time to take a look at what has happened.

Lincoln signed words on a piece of paper but were those words actually honored?

Not really.

At the time of "emancipation" 80 percent of Americas GNP was tied to slavery. America, not just the south. Blacks got none of the money. In January of 1865, Special Field Order 15 was issued. Special Field Orders No. 15 - Wikipedia In July 1865, Circular 13, Resource Sheet #7 was issued by General Howard which fully authorized the lease of 40 acres of land to the newly freed slaves. As a result of this action 40,000 former slaves began work on several hundred thousand acres of land.

President Andrew Johnson killed that by his doing so removed those 40,000 blacks off that land and destroyed any income they could make. Meanwhile Johnson advocated for the homestead act and wanted to take plantation land and distribute it to whites without money.

Johnson pardoned most of the confederate leaders and they regained their prior positions of state leadership. By doing this, Johnson unleashed a reign of terror on blacks that really was nothing short of attempted ethnic cleansing. Blacks were beaten, scalped, killed, set on fire with their bodies left in the streets to rot.

A representative from the Johnson administration traveled the south and reported seeing black women scalped, or had their ears cut off, thrown into rivers and drowned. Black men and boys were clubbed, beaten, shot, some chained on trees and burned to death. State to state this man witnessed the stench of dead decomposing black bodies hanging from tree limbs, lying in ditches, and piled up on the roadways.

But blacks were free, right?

Now if anyone goes off topic, I expect the post to be eliminated .

Your ignorance is due to your democrat plantation mentality. Democrats no longer own you. Republicans have freed you.

 

[Rambunctious]

Did IM2 say anything like the above? He quoted many academic studies, and most of them were well worth reading. When he defends Obama — a genuinely well educated man; when he uses W.E.B. Dubois as his avatar — a man who could outthink any one of us in several languages, he doesn’t show disrespect for academic achievement. Yet he gets insulted by many here just for supporting his party and the party of Obama and most African-Americans!

Attempting to correct racial disparities requires a complete and open-minded exploration of the causes for those disparities.. Blaming racism before you DO THAT is too convenient and simplistic. MANY of those causes are SYSTEMIC -- and only affect the black community in an unequal manner BECAUSE of education and economic gaps.. The Big Three being education, economic income and access to EQUAL and ACCOMMODATING justice that takes into account the special needs of folks living on the edge of economic ruin.

NOWHERE did I mention Obama.. NOWHERE did I demean Dubois or ANY OTHER black high academic achiever.. In FACT -- I've REPEATEDLY suggested that SUCCESSFUL and high achieving blacks BE used as role models.. Don't give a damn about their politics.. IM2 in the past has posted mind numbing crap about "math and science" as being "racist".. He's DISSED high acheiving blacks that dont fit his political views REPEATEDLY.. Its VERY political how he excommunicates high achieving blacks that DO NOT FIT HIS POLITICS... I don't play that game, because I'm a FIXER of things. Not a demagogue.

Fair enough. I didn’t mean you when I said people insult IM2 — and others — just for supporting “the party of Obama and most African Americans.” I am happy if you respect the intelligence and academic achievement of men like W.E.B. DuBois, who himself lived a long life in which he was at different times a Lincoln-admiring Republican, a leader of the NAACP, a Socialist and a Pan-Africanist. I haven’t been here long, haven’t seen what you say about IM2, or know you or many people here well. If I strongly disagree with IM2 about such matters in the future, I hope I will find a way to express myself in a constructive way. That is sometimes all we can do when we disagree ... especially about politics.

Can't we all just "get along" ??? Actually not really a rhetorical question.. Because after going 20 or 30 pages with some of the "black educators" here -- the most IMPORTANT thing you'll learn TP, is that they are afeared of stuff like "racial reconcilation".. Aint shopping for any improved "social interactions that might result from honest discussion.. Because IF that happened, THEY would become irrelevant.. In a Kumbaya world -- some of resident "grievance scholars" would be VERY unhappy that the PAST and history is IN the past..

Nobody here is scared of racial reconciliation but you. And you prove that with what you just told Paine. You believe that crazy shit. You are the one that cannot handle honest discussion. An honest discussion means you are able to accept that past racism has caused damage that continues now as well ads the fact that continuing racism by whites exacerbates the already unfixed damage. Instead you offer solutions like blacks moving into all white rural towns.

You are pissed...you have no path within you for forgiveness....and you weren't even alive back then.....

I am alive now and have seen 59 years of continuing white racism.

You are incapable of seeing anything else.....

Wrong. You just can't deal with a black person speaking the truth.

^^^^^^ bs ^^^^^^
IM2, you would not know the truth if it
came at you chicken fried and with
collard greens. You have been brain
washed by acid head sophists

It's funny how whites like you try telling me things. You are a white female. Maybe you should think about your condition.

OH!!!!! you mean that I should go around INCESSANTLY quoting "THE FEMININE MYSTIQUE"
and define all of the human condition and history
of the WORLD as being a matter of PERVASIVE
MYSOGYNY? ------nope!!! no thanks----I will
not be the "white female" version of
BLACK NATIONALIST IM-2

I am not a black nationalist you ignorant trash bag.. You will not see me asking for a separate black nation at any time. I will continue to demand the complete eradication of white racism, I will continue to demand that whites like you get off your sorry excuse making asses and do what it takes to rid the white community of it's racism, and I will continue to demand that the government of this country do what is necessary to fix the damage continuing white racism has wrought on the black community as well as other communities of color to include the demand for economic equality.

You are just going to have to live with that.

You will never be satisfied no matter what happens unless all white people just go away....at least be honest with yourself...

 

[IM2]

So What Happened To Blacks After Slavery?

Is the thread topic. Policies and studies have been posted showing what has happened to blacks and the effects. There is plenty to discuss. If you cannot discuss what has been presented don't come in here. From this point all personal attacks and off topic posts will be reported. I have been more than fair but this shit is done on purpose while whites can create threads about black names and none of the "non racist colorblind whites tired of things being about race," have no problem with it.

 

[Rambunctious]

Did IM2 say anything like the above? He quoted many academic studies, and most of them were well worth reading. When he defends Obama — a genuinely well educated man; when he uses W.E.B. Dubois as his avatar — a man who could outthink any one of us in several languages, he doesn’t show disrespect for academic achievement. Yet he gets insulted by many here just for supporting his party and the party of Obama and most African-Americans!

Attempting to correct racial disparities requires a complete and open-minded exploration of the causes for those disparities.. Blaming racism before you DO THAT is too convenient and simplistic. MANY of those causes are SYSTEMIC -- and only affect the black community in an unequal manner BECAUSE of education and economic gaps.. The Big Three being education, economic income and access to EQUAL and ACCOMMODATING justice that takes into account the special needs of folks living on the edge of economic ruin.

NOWHERE did I mention Obama.. NOWHERE did I demean Dubois or ANY OTHER black high academic achiever.. In FACT -- I've REPEATEDLY suggested that SUCCESSFUL and high achieving blacks BE used as role models.. Don't give a damn about their politics.. IM2 in the past has posted mind numbing crap about "math and science" as being "racist".. He's DISSED high acheiving blacks that dont fit his political views REPEATEDLY.. Its VERY political how he excommunicates high achieving blacks that DO NOT FIT HIS POLITICS... I don't play that game, because I'm a FIXER of things. Not a demagogue.

Fair enough. I didn’t mean you when I said people insult IM2 — and others — just for supporting “the party of Obama and most African Americans.” I am happy if you respect the intelligence and academic achievement of men like W.E.B. DuBois, who himself lived a long life in which he was at different times a Lincoln-admiring Republican, a leader of the NAACP, a Socialist and a Pan-Africanist. I haven’t been here long, haven’t seen what you say about IM2, or know you or many people here well. If I strongly disagree with IM2 about such matters in the future, I hope I will find a way to express myself in a constructive way. That is sometimes all we can do when we disagree ... especially about politics.

Can't we all just "get along" ??? Actually not really a rhetorical question.. Because after going 20 or 30 pages with some of the "black educators" here -- the most IMPORTANT thing you'll learn TP, is that they are afeared of stuff like "racial reconcilation".. Aint shopping for any improved "social interactions that might result from honest discussion.. Because IF that happened, THEY would become irrelevant.. In a Kumbaya world -- some of resident "grievance scholars" would be VERY unhappy that the PAST and history is IN the past..

Nobody here is scared of racial reconciliation but you. And you prove that with what you just told Paine. You believe that crazy shit. You are the one that cannot handle honest discussion. An honest discussion means you are able to accept that past racism has caused damage that continues now as well ads the fact that continuing racism by whites exacerbates the already unfixed damage. Instead you offer solutions like blacks moving into all white rural towns.

You are pissed...you have no path within you for forgiveness....and you weren't even alive back then.....

I am alive now and have seen 59 years of continuing white racism.

You are incapable of seeing anything else.....

Wrong. You just can't deal with a black person speaking the truth.

I bet I've known and lived with more African Americans than you ever have....you don't know what you are talking about....

No you haven't and I do know. I happen to be black so shut up.

Being black doesn't mean you have lived and worked with more black men and women than I have.....I served with men and women of all colors and creed for many years and I live in a retired military community with black neighbors and friends.....
I grew up off of Western Ave in south central Los Angeles and attended schools with a majority of black students....my sleep overs as a kid were more diverse than anything you have ever been a part of....that is why I get so disgusted with your attitude and point of view....you are a racist and its sickening....but with help you can change....you can shed your anger and hate....maybe when Trump retires and your TDS diminishes you can give it a try....

LOL! Here we go with the white racist talking about his black friends and calling me a racist full of hate while never saying anything to whites for what they post here.

I'm black. Lived in the black neighborhood. Went to a majority white school system, a majority white university, partied and socialized with students from around the world Played rugby and competed and socialized with men and women from all over the world. No, you haven't been in more diverse situations than me and pointing out continuing white racism is not racist or hateful. The only people I have found to see it as such during my participation in these forums are whites who are racist.

Too bad you learned nothing by your experiences...

 

[katsteve2012]

Old style would say the Puritans came to America for the higher wages, that Jews liberated from concentration camps went to Israel for better wages, that Americans fought for independence just for money, that Americans went overseas to fight and die during WWII to advance their careers ...

IM2 would say that the Puritans came to American because of racism...that Jews went to Israel because of racism...that American fought the Revolutionary war because of racism...that they also fought and died in WWII because of racism. It's a one size fits all with IM2 and Milkweed. Racism...racism and racism!

No, I would say that puritans came to America to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs. I would say that the revolutionary war was fought by the white colonists over the unfairness of being subject the British rule without being represented. I would say that soldiers like my dad fought in WW2 to stop the Germans, Italians and Japanese. Only a retard like you thinks I make everything about racism. I make racism about racism. IT'S NOT MY FAULT THAT WHITES LIKE YOU CONTINUE THE RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY.

How dare you say anything about the Puritans! You're black and they were white! According to you...only a white person who's relatives were Puritans can know the TRUTH about the Puritans! (eye roll) ...

Your eye rolling to the contrary notwithstanding, you miss the point ... again.

I don’t need a lesson on why Puritans came to this country, either, thank you very much. IM2 is wrong, by the way. The Puritans DID NOT come to these shores “to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs.“

But IM2 of course would not, and did not, say it was because of racism.

I could go on and talk about the importance for historians to research actual historical accounts, diaries, and verbal interviews where possible to uncover motivation, as distinct from theorizing abstractly or being a crude “historical materialist.” I don’t know, but I fear that might be lost on you. It seems to me you are not approaching these questions objectively, but emotionally, just as you accuse IM2 of doing.

I think katsteve2012 has the best overall take on this question. He tries to see it in its many different dimensions.

Tom. I see it differently simply because I listened to my elders, who were not so far removed from migration.

I also read. My dad taught U.S. history, and ended his career as a school superintendent.


He would talk to me for hours about how and why our family left the south. He gave the conventional side, as well as the actual side.

It is not a coincidence that the "timing" of the migration was closely related to the possibility of a better life, in a LESS threatening" environment, and the flight from institutionalized racism in a MORE hostile environment.

Most who have a real interest in THAT history, and have studied the migration in intimate detail know that.

 

[Oldestyle]

Old style would say the Puritans came to America for the higher wages, that Jews liberated from concentration camps went to Israel for better wages, that Americans fought for independence just for money, that Americans went overseas to fight and die during WWII to advance their careers ...

IM2 would say that the Puritans came to American because of racism...that Jews went to Israel because of racism...that American fought the Revolutionary war because of racism...that they also fought and died in WWII because of racism. It's a one size fits all with IM2 and Milkweed. Racism...racism and racism!

No, I would say that puritans came to America to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs. I would say that the revolutionary war was fought by the white colonists over the unfairness of being subject the British rule without being represented. I would say that soldiers like my dad fought in WW2 to stop the Germans, Italians and Japanese. Only a retard like you thinks I make everything about racism. I make racism about racism. IT'S NOT MY FAULT THAT WHITES LIKE YOU CONTINUE THE RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY.

How dare you say anything about the Puritans! You're black and they were white! According to you...only a white person who's relatives were Puritans can know the TRUTH about the Puritans! (eye roll) ...

Your eye rolling to the contrary notwithstanding, you miss the point ... again.

I don’t need a lesson on why Puritans came to this country, either, thank you very much. IM2 is wrong, by the way. The Puritans DID NOT come to these shores “to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs.“

But IM2 of course would not, and did not, say it was because of racism.

I could go on and talk about the importance for historians to research actual historical accounts, diaries, and verbal interviews where possible to uncover motivation, as distinct from theorizing abstractly or being a crude “historical materialist.” I don’t know, but I fear that might be lost on you. It seems to me you are not approaching these questions objectively, but emotionally, just as you accuse IM2 of doing.

I think katsteve2012 has the best overall take on this question. He tries to see it in its many different dimensions.

I'm approaching this "emotionally"? With all due respect, Tom...I could care less about this topic. I simply find IM2 to be myopic in his views of history and I enjoy picking on him by pointing out how myopic those views are! You want "emotion"? Talk to IM2 and Milk Weed! They'll give you all the drama and emotion you can handle!

 

[Oldestyle]

So What Happened To Blacks After Slavery?

Is the thread topic. Policies and studies have been posted showing what has happened to blacks and the effects. There is plenty to discuss. If you cannot discuss what has been presented don't come in here. From this point all personal attacks and off topic posts will be reported. I have been more than fair but this shit is done on purpose while whites can create threads about black names and none of the "non racist colorblind whites tired of things being about race," have no problem with it.

Somebody is going to tell teacher that other people are picking on him!

 

[IM2]

Old style would say the Puritans came to America for the higher wages, that Jews liberated from concentration camps went to Israel for better wages, that Americans fought for independence just for money, that Americans went overseas to fight and die during WWII to advance their careers ...

IM2 would say that the Puritans came to American because of racism...that Jews went to Israel because of racism...that American fought the Revolutionary war because of racism...that they also fought and died in WWII because of racism. It's a one size fits all with IM2 and Milkweed. Racism...racism and racism!

No, I would say that puritans came to America to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs. I would say that the revolutionary war was fought by the white colonists over the unfairness of being subject the British rule without being represented. I would say that soldiers like my dad fought in WW2 to stop the Germans, Italians and Japanese. Only a retard like you thinks I make everything about racism. I make racism about racism. IT'S NOT MY FAULT THAT WHITES LIKE YOU CONTINUE THE RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY.

How dare you say anything about the Puritans! You're black and they were white! According to you...only a white person who's relatives were Puritans can know the TRUTH about the Puritans! (eye roll) ...

Your eye rolling to the contrary notwithstanding, you miss the point ... again.

I don’t need a lesson on why Puritans came to this country, either, thank you very much. IM2 is wrong, by the way. The Puritans DID NOT come to these shores “to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs.“

But IM2 of course would not, and did not, say it was because of racism.

I could go on and talk about the importance for historians to research actual historical accounts, diaries, and verbal interviews where possible to uncover motivation, as distinct from theorizing abstractly or being a crude “historical materialist.” I don’t know, but I fear that might be lost on you. It seems to me you are not approaching these questions objectively, but emotionally, just as you accuse IM2 of doing.

I think katsteve2012 has the best overall take on this question. He tries to see it in its many different dimensions.

I'm approaching this "emotionally"? With all due respect, Tom...I could care less about this topic. I simply find IM2 to be myopic in his views of history and I enjoy picking on him by pointing out how myopic those views are! You want "emotion"? Talk to IM2 and Milk Weed! They'll give you all the drama and emotion you can handle!

There is nothing myopic about how I have approached this or my view of American racial history. You seek excuses so you as a white person can feel better. That's all your opposition is about. You aren't picking and showing anything but your abject ignorance. I am correct in this matter and whatever you called yourself doing has failed.

 

[IM2]

When it is said we talk about a history of racist laws and policy many do not understand the full extent of what is meant. According to the 13th Amendment, "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, nor any place subject to their jurisdiction. “I think people really need to understand the impact of the underlined words. After emancipation, Blacks were arrested, tried, found guilty and sent to prison for crimes such as vagrancy, cussing in front of whites, jaywalking and other minor or non offenses for whites. There has been no amendment to change this part of the 13th Amendment meaning that in reality slavery could still exist in America today. After slavery ended:

• Employment was required of all freedmen; violators faced vagrancy charges
• Freedmen could not assemble without the presence of a white person
• Freedmen were assumed to be agricultural workers and their duties and hours were tightly regulated
• Freedmen were not to be taught to read or write
• Public facilities were segregated
• Violators of these laws were subject to being whipped or branded.

Because of this, blacks could be returned to slavery and thousands were. This was done by a process called convict leasing. Pointing out the existence of convict leasing is very important. Convict leasing was a cruel and inhumane system rife with abuse. Convict leasing was also HUGE business. For example, at one point convict leasing amounted for almost ¾’s of all state revenue in Alabama. Black convict labor literally fed, clothed and housed white Alabama state employees. Of course the spin off effects of that was the state employees/agencies spending money in businesses throughout the state. Companies paid states to use convicts to work in textile factories, build railroads and to work in mines. Thousands of blacks died as a result of convict leasing. The laborers were tortured and made to fight in order to entertain prison staff. There were secret graveyards where the laborers that died as result of the “entertainment” were buried. This was free labor no different from slavery. It is an example of how whites have played with the law in order to maintain a system of white racial preference.

“The leasing out of state convicts to private hands has its basis in the minds of such people as John T. Milner of Alabama. Milner was no ordinary man, rather he was a Southern elite who "was in the vanguard of that new theory of industrial forced labor," writing in 1859 that "black labor marshaled into the regimented productivity of factory settings would be the key to the economic development of Alabama and the South." Milner's idea of using regimented black labor can be seen in his involvement of a project for the Blue River railroad company in Alabama. In 1859, he issued a plan for the laying of rail in Montgomery, "presenting statistical evidence to demonstrate the potential economic benefit to Montgomery of securing connections with Decatur," a city north of Montgomery. He argued that the Blue River could build its own track in nearby Jones Valley with the use of slave labor. Yet, in Milner's mind, this slave labor had to be managed by whites. He stated " A negro who can set a saw, or run a grist mill, or work in a blacksmith shop, can do work as cheaply in a rolling mill, even now, as white men do at the North, provided he has an overseer, a southern man, who knows how to manage negroes." (emphasis added) After the end of the Civil War, Milner's plan changed, but he was convinced that "the future of blacks in America rested on how whites chose to manage them." To this end, in the 1870s, he moved with purpose to acquire the black convict labor that Alabama's prisons were offering up. He took these convicts and put them to work in coal mines, treating them barbarically.

Records of Milner's various mines and slave farms in southern Alabama, some of which were owned by one of his business partners - a cousin to an investor in the Bibb Steam Mill - tell the stories of black women stripped naked and whipped, of hundreds of men starved, changed, and beaten, of workers perpetually lice-ridden and barely clothed.”

Far too many people want to argue about things said without an understanding of the depth and length of things that happened. Take a look at what people who were forced to do this labor were sent to prison for:

• 24 men were incarcerated for using “obscene language,”
• Another 24 for “false pretense” — a statute used to punish black men who changed employers before the end of the farming season, and
• Seven for vagrancy, another ill-defined charge that left any unemployed black person vulnerable to arrest.

In Alabama, the convict-leasing system remained on the books until 1928.

Convict leasing, vagrancy laws, black codes are the result of what has been called The Civil Rights Cases”. The decisions made by the supreme court in these cases began states rights. States’ rights meant that the federal government could not interfere in how the states did things. If an act of racism happened in a state that was a state concern, not a federal one. While slavery was illegal by written federal law, or that rights were not to be denied by race, whites found a way around those amendments to continue practicing racism using the states rights argument. From the years after slavery until Plessy V. Ferguson in 1896, the supreme court rendered a series of decisions that basically erased the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments. From the end of slavery until 1965, the whites of this nation insured that racial oppression would be the rule in America.

Fact.

 

[MizMolly]

When it is said we talk about a history of racist laws and policy many do not understand the full extent of what is meant. According to the 13th Amendment, "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, nor any place subject to their jurisdiction. “I think people really need to understand the impact of the underlined words. After emancipation, Blacks were arrested, tried, found guilty and sent to prison for crimes such as vagrancy, cussing in front of whites, jaywalking and other minor or non offenses for whites. There has been no amendment to change this part of the 13th Amendment meaning that in reality slavery could still exist in America today. After slavery ended:

• Employment was required of all freedmen; violators faced vagrancy charges
• Freedmen could not assemble without the presence of a white person
• Freedmen were assumed to be agricultural workers and their duties and hours were tightly regulated
• Freedmen were not to be taught to read or write
• Public facilities were segregated
• Violators of these laws were subject to being whipped or branded.

Because of this, blacks could be returned to slavery and thousands were. This was done by a process called convict leasing. Pointing out the existence of convict leasing is very important. Convict leasing was a cruel and inhumane system rife with abuse. Convict leasing was also HUGE business. For example, at one point convict leasing amounted for almost ¾’s of all state revenue in Alabama. Black convict labor literally fed, clothed and housed white Alabama state employees. Of course the spin off effects of that was the state employees/agencies spending money in businesses throughout the state. Companies paid states to use convicts to work in textile factories, build railroads and to work in mines. Thousands of blacks died as a result of convict leasing. The laborers were tortured and made to fight in order to entertain prison staff. There were secret graveyards where the laborers that died as result of the “entertainment” were buried. This was free labor no different from slavery. It is an example of how whites have played with the law in order to maintain a system of white racial preference.

“The leasing out of state convicts to private hands has its basis in the minds of such people as John T. Milner of Alabama. Milner was no ordinary man, rather he was a Southern elite who "was in the vanguard of that new theory of industrial forced labor," writing in 1859 that "black labor marshaled into the regimented productivity of factory settings would be the key to the economic development of Alabama and the South." Milner's idea of using regimented black labor can be seen in his involvement of a project for the Blue River railroad company in Alabama. In 1859, he issued a plan for the laying of rail in Montgomery, "presenting statistical evidence to demonstrate the potential economic benefit to Montgomery of securing connections with Decatur," a city north of Montgomery. He argued that the Blue River could build its own track in nearby Jones Valley with the use of slave labor. Yet, in Milner's mind, this slave labor had to be managed by whites. He stated " A negro who can set a saw, or run a grist mill, or work in a blacksmith shop, can do work as cheaply in a rolling mill, even now, as white men do at the North, provided he has an overseer, a southern man, who knows how to manage negroes." (emphasis added) After the end of the Civil War, Milner's plan changed, but he was convinced that "the future of blacks in America rested on how whites chose to manage them." To this end, in the 1870s, he moved with purpose to acquire the black convict labor that Alabama's prisons were offering up. He took these convicts and put them to work in coal mines, treating them barbarically.

Records of Milner's various mines and slave farms in southern Alabama, some of which were owned by one of his business partners - a cousin to an investor in the Bibb Steam Mill - tell the stories of black women stripped naked and whipped, of hundreds of men starved, changed, and beaten, of workers perpetually lice-ridden and barely clothed.”

Far too many people want to argue about things said without an understanding of the depth and length of things that happened. Take a look at what people who were forced to do this labor were sent to prison for:

• 24 men were incarcerated for using “obscene language,”
• Another 24 for “false pretense” — a statute used to punish black men who changed employers before the end of the farming season, and
• Seven for vagrancy, another ill-defined charge that left any unemployed black person vulnerable to arrest.

In Alabama, the convict-leasing system remained on the books until 1928.

Convict leasing, vagrancy laws, black codes are the result of what has been called The Civil Rights Cases”. The decisions made by the supreme court in these cases began states rights. States’ rights meant that the federal government could not interfere in how the states did things. If an act of racism happened in a state that was a state concern, not a federal one. While slavery was illegal by written federal law, or that rights were not to be denied by race, whites found a way around those amendments to continue practicing racism using the states rights argument. From the years after slavery until Plessy V. Ferguson in 1896, the supreme court rendered a series of decisions that basically erased the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments. From the end of slavery until 1965, the whites of this nation insured that racial oppression would be the rule in America.

Fact.

The things you list do not exist today for black people. Why do you keep posting the past? No, whites don't feel guilty, why should we? What is your point in posting the bad history that SOME people did? Times have changed.

 

[Oldestyle]

Old style would say the Puritans came to America for the higher wages, that Jews liberated from concentration camps went to Israel for better wages, that Americans fought for independence just for money, that Americans went overseas to fight and die during WWII to advance their careers ...

IM2 would say that the Puritans came to American because of racism...that Jews went to Israel because of racism...that American fought the Revolutionary war because of racism...that they also fought and died in WWII because of racism. It's a one size fits all with IM2 and Milkweed. Racism...racism and racism!

No, I would say that puritans came to America to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs. I would say that the revolutionary war was fought by the white colonists over the unfairness of being subject the British rule without being represented. I would say that soldiers like my dad fought in WW2 to stop the Germans, Italians and Japanese. Only a retard like you thinks I make everything about racism. I make racism about racism. IT'S NOT MY FAULT THAT WHITES LIKE YOU CONTINUE THE RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY.

How dare you say anything about the Puritans! You're black and they were white! According to you...only a white person who's relatives were Puritans can know the TRUTH about the Puritans! (eye roll) ...

Your eye rolling to the contrary notwithstanding, you miss the point ... again.

I don’t need a lesson on why Puritans came to this country, either, thank you very much. IM2 is wrong, by the way. The Puritans DID NOT come to these shores “to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs.“

But IM2 of course would not, and did not, say it was because of racism.

I could go on and talk about the importance for historians to research actual historical accounts, diaries, and verbal interviews where possible to uncover motivation, as distinct from theorizing abstractly or being a crude “historical materialist.” I don’t know, but I fear that might be lost on you. It seems to me you are not approaching these questions objectively, but emotionally, just as you accuse IM2 of doing.

I think katsteve2012 has the best overall take on this question. He tries to see it in its many different dimensions.

I'm approaching this "emotionally"? With all due respect, Tom...I could care less about this topic. I simply find IM2 to be myopic in his views of history and I enjoy picking on him by pointing out how myopic those views are! You want "emotion"? Talk to IM2 and Milk Weed! They'll give you all the drama and emotion you can handle!

There is nothing myopic about how I have approached this or my view of American racial history. You seek excuses so you as a white person can feel better. That's all your opposition is about. You aren't picking and showing anything but your abject ignorance. I am correct in this matter and whatever you called yourself doing has failed.

How is this making me feel better as a white person? I've never been a racist. I judge people by their actions not their skin pigmentation. You on the other hand are one of the most racist people I've ever run across. You judge people solely by their skin color and THAT my friend makes you as myopic as it gets!

 

[IM2]

Old style would say the Puritans came to America for the higher wages, that Jews liberated from concentration camps went to Israel for better wages, that Americans fought for independence just for money, that Americans went overseas to fight and die during WWII to advance their careers ...

IM2 would say that the Puritans came to American because of racism...that Jews went to Israel because of racism...that American fought the Revolutionary war because of racism...that they also fought and died in WWII because of racism. It's a one size fits all with IM2 and Milkweed. Racism...racism and racism!

No, I would say that puritans came to America to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs. I would say that the revolutionary war was fought by the white colonists over the unfairness of being subject the British rule without being represented. I would say that soldiers like my dad fought in WW2 to stop the Germans, Italians and Japanese. Only a retard like you thinks I make everything about racism. I make racism about racism. IT'S NOT MY FAULT THAT WHITES LIKE YOU CONTINUE THE RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY.

How dare you say anything about the Puritans! You're black and they were white! According to you...only a white person who's relatives were Puritans can know the TRUTH about the Puritans! (eye roll) ...

Your eye rolling to the contrary notwithstanding, you miss the point ... again.

I don’t need a lesson on why Puritans came to this country, either, thank you very much. IM2 is wrong, by the way. The Puritans DID NOT come to these shores “to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs.“

But IM2 of course would not, and did not, say it was because of racism.

I could go on and talk about the importance for historians to research actual historical accounts, diaries, and verbal interviews where possible to uncover motivation, as distinct from theorizing abstractly or being a crude “historical materialist.” I don’t know, but I fear that might be lost on you. It seems to me you are not approaching these questions objectively, but emotionally, just as you accuse IM2 of doing.

I think katsteve2012 has the best overall take on this question. He tries to see it in its many different dimensions.

I'm approaching this "emotionally"? With all due respect, Tom...I could care less about this topic. I simply find IM2 to be myopic in his views of history and I enjoy picking on him by pointing out how myopic those views are! You want "emotion"? Talk to IM2 and Milk Weed! They'll give you all the drama and emotion you can handle!

There is nothing myopic about how I have approached this or my view of American racial history. You seek excuses so you as a white person can feel better. That's all your opposition is about. You aren't picking and showing anything but your abject ignorance. I am correct in this matter and whatever you called yourself doing has failed.

How is this making me feel better as a white person? I've never been a racist. I judge people by their actions not their skin pigmentation. You on the other hand are one of the most racist people I've ever run across. You judge people solely by their skin color and THAT my friend makes you as myopic as it gets!

Spare me your lies about how you judge people. This thread has been about government policy and you are the one talking about skin color. In this thread, I have stated that not all whites are the problem and I provided examples of that by using information done by whites to discuss the issues. So stop crying. This thread is to allow those like you to understand the manner in which the government has participated at every level to create and maintain a system of white racial preference that still exists at this very moment.

This is about a system built on a pattern of behavior and belief by members of the white community. This is not just looking at whites and calling all them racists. But this is how it goes every fucking time because people like you have white fragility and instead of looking at the big picture I have to read about what the fuck you haven't done. Well motherfucker, somebody white is doing it and we all know that, so then maybe you try stopping it instead of whining about a racism that's not there because you can't handle the truth.

 

[Rye Catcher]

This thread is specifically about what the government of these united states did to blacks after the years of slavery up until right now.

The republicans here want to take credit for ending slavery while simultaneously telling us that they should not be held responsible for what their ancestors did before they were born. In standard republican fashion everybody else must take responsibility but them. However in the 150 or so years after slavery things have happened that most of these guys don't want to discuss. It is time to take a look at what has happened.

Lincoln signed words on a piece of paper but were those words actually honored?

Not really.

At the time of "emancipation" 80 percent of Americas GNP was tied to slavery. America, not just the south. Blacks got none of the money. In January of 1865, Special Field Order 15 was issued. Special Field Orders No. 15 - Wikipedia In July 1865, Circular 13, Resource Sheet #7 was issued by General Howard which fully authorized the lease of 40 acres of land to the newly freed slaves. As a result of this action 40,000 former slaves began work on several hundred thousand acres of land.

President Andrew Johnson killed that by his doing so removed those 40,000 blacks off that land and destroyed any income they could make. Meanwhile Johnson advocated for the homestead act and wanted to take plantation land and distribute it to whites without money.

Johnson pardoned most of the confederate leaders and they regained their prior positions of state leadership. By doing this, Johnson unleashed a reign of terror on blacks that really was nothing short of attempted ethnic cleansing. Blacks were beaten, scalped, killed, set on fire with their bodies left in the streets to rot.

A representative from the Johnson administration traveled the south and reported seeing black women scalped, or had their ears cut off, thrown into rivers and drowned. Black men and boys were clubbed, beaten, shot, some chained on trees and burned to death. State to state this man witnessed the stench of dead decomposing black bodies hanging from tree limbs, lying in ditches, and piled up on the roadways.

But blacks were free, right?

Now if anyone goes off topic, I expect the post to be eliminated .

Q. But blacks were free, right?

A. Reconstruction: America After the Civil War

Reconstruction - Civil War End, Changes & Act of 1867 | HISTORY

Reconstruction, the turbulent era following the U.S. Civil War, was an effort to reunify the divided nation, address and integrate African Americans into society by rewriting the nation's laws and Constitution. The steps taken gave rise to the Ku Klux Klan and other divisive groups.

www.history.com

From the link:

"Reconstruction (1865-1877), the turbulent era following the Civil War, was the effort to reintegrate Southern states from the Confederacy and 4 million newly-freed slaves into the United States. Under the administration of President Andrew Johnson in 1865 and 1866, new southern state legislatures passed restrictive “black codes” to control the labor and behavior of former slaves and other African Americans. Outrage in the North over these codes eroded support for the approach known as Presidential Reconstruction and led to the triumph of the more radical wing of the Republican Party. During Radical Reconstruction, which began with the passage of the Reconstruction Act of 1867, newly enfranchised blacks gained a voice in government for the first time in American history, winning election to southern state legislatures and even to the U.S. Congress. In less than a decade, however, reactionary forces–including the Ku Klux Klan–would reverse the changes wrought by Radical Reconstruction in a violent backlash that restored white supremacy in the South."

See the link for a full description in response to the question.

 

[Oldestyle]

Old style would say the Puritans came to America for the higher wages, that Jews liberated from concentration camps went to Israel for better wages, that Americans fought for independence just for money, that Americans went overseas to fight and die during WWII to advance their careers ...

IM2 would say that the Puritans came to American because of racism...that Jews went to Israel because of racism...that American fought the Revolutionary war because of racism...that they also fought and died in WWII because of racism. It's a one size fits all with IM2 and Milkweed. Racism...racism and racism!

No, I would say that puritans came to America to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs. I would say that the revolutionary war was fought by the white colonists over the unfairness of being subject the British rule without being represented. I would say that soldiers like my dad fought in WW2 to stop the Germans, Italians and Japanese. Only a retard like you thinks I make everything about racism. I make racism about racism. IT'S NOT MY FAULT THAT WHITES LIKE YOU CONTINUE THE RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY.

How dare you say anything about the Puritans! You're black and they were white! According to you...only a white person who's relatives were Puritans can know the TRUTH about the Puritans! (eye roll) ...

Your eye rolling to the contrary notwithstanding, you miss the point ... again.

I don’t need a lesson on why Puritans came to this country, either, thank you very much. IM2 is wrong, by the way. The Puritans DID NOT come to these shores “to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs.“

But IM2 of course would not, and did not, say it was because of racism.

I could go on and talk about the importance for historians to research actual historical accounts, diaries, and verbal interviews where possible to uncover motivation, as distinct from theorizing abstractly or being a crude “historical materialist.” I don’t know, but I fear that might be lost on you. It seems to me you are not approaching these questions objectively, but emotionally, just as you accuse IM2 of doing.

I think katsteve2012 has the best overall take on this question. He tries to see it in its many different dimensions.

I'm approaching this "emotionally"? With all due respect, Tom...I could care less about this topic. I simply find IM2 to be myopic in his views of history and I enjoy picking on him by pointing out how myopic those views are! You want "emotion"? Talk to IM2 and Milk Weed! They'll give you all the drama and emotion you can handle!

There is nothing myopic about how I have approached this or my view of American racial history. You seek excuses so you as a white person can feel better. That's all your opposition is about. You aren't picking and showing anything but your abject ignorance. I am correct in this matter and whatever you called yourself doing has failed.

How is this making me feel better as a white person? I've never been a racist. I judge people by their actions not their skin pigmentation. You on the other hand are one of the most racist people I've ever run across. You judge people solely by their skin color and THAT my friend makes you as myopic as it gets!

Spare me your lies about how you judge people. This thread has been about government policy and you are the one talking about skin color. In this thread, I have stated that not all whites are the problem and I provided examples of that by using information done by whites to discuss the issues. So stop crying. This thread is to allow those like you to understand the manner in which the government has participated at every level to create and maintain a system of white racial preference that still exists at this very moment.

This is about a system built on a pattern of behavior and belief by members of the white community. This is not just looking at whites and calling all them racists. But this is how it goes every fucking time because people like you have white fragility and instead of looking at the big picture I have to read about what the fuck you haven't done. Well motherfucker, somebody white is doing it and we all know that, so then maybe you try stopping it instead of whining about a racism that's not there because you can't handle the truth.

Oh, so any liberal white person that regurgitates the crap that you're pushing ISN'T a racist...but all the rest of us are? You know what's sad, IM2! The white people that you love to quote are the very same people who have put blacks on the government "plantation" going all the way back to LBJ! They treat you like victims...not grown adults...and you let them do it. Then they turn around and use what they spouted as "proof" that they aren't racist...that THEY have your best interests at heart!
But do they REALLY? What has sixty years of being treated like children done for the black people of America? Liberal politicians show up every few years in black neighborhoods and tell you that they need your vote because they're fighting for you against the bad racist people...then they go back to their nice neighborhood, hang out with their rich friends...and laugh their asses off that you fell for that line of bullshit ONCE AGAIN!

 

[Indeependent]

Old style would say the Puritans came to America for the higher wages, that Jews liberated from concentration camps went to Israel for better wages, that Americans fought for independence just for money, that Americans went overseas to fight and die during WWII to advance their careers ...

IM2 would say that the Puritans came to American because of racism...that Jews went to Israel because of racism...that American fought the Revolutionary war because of racism...that they also fought and died in WWII because of racism. It's a one size fits all with IM2 and Milkweed. Racism...racism and racism!

No, I would say that puritans came to America to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs. I would say that the revolutionary war was fought by the white colonists over the unfairness of being subject the British rule without being represented. I would say that soldiers like my dad fought in WW2 to stop the Germans, Italians and Japanese. Only a retard like you thinks I make everything about racism. I make racism about racism. IT'S NOT MY FAULT THAT WHITES LIKE YOU CONTINUE THE RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY.

How dare you say anything about the Puritans! You're black and they were white! According to you...only a white person who's relatives were Puritans can know the TRUTH about the Puritans! (eye roll) ...

Your eye rolling to the contrary notwithstanding, you miss the point ... again.

I don’t need a lesson on why Puritans came to this country, either, thank you very much. IM2 is wrong, by the way. The Puritans DID NOT come to these shores “to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs.“

But IM2 of course would not, and did not, say it was because of racism.

I could go on and talk about the importance for historians to research actual historical accounts, diaries, and verbal interviews where possible to uncover motivation, as distinct from theorizing abstractly or being a crude “historical materialist.” I don’t know, but I fear that might be lost on you. It seems to me you are not approaching these questions objectively, but emotionally, just as you accuse IM2 of doing.

I think katsteve2012 has the best overall take on this question. He tries to see it in its many different dimensions.

I'm approaching this "emotionally"? With all due respect, Tom...I could care less about this topic. I simply find IM2 to be myopic in his views of history and I enjoy picking on him by pointing out how myopic those views are! You want "emotion"? Talk to IM2 and Milk Weed! They'll give you all the drama and emotion you can handle!

There is nothing myopic about how I have approached this or my view of American racial history. You seek excuses so you as a white person can feel better. That's all your opposition is about. You aren't picking and showing anything but your abject ignorance. I am correct in this matter and whatever you called yourself doing has failed.

How is this making me feel better as a white person? I've never been a racist. I judge people by their actions not their skin pigmentation. You on the other hand are one of the most racist people I've ever run across. You judge people solely by their skin color and THAT my friend makes you as myopic as it gets!

Spare me your lies about how you judge people. This thread has been about government policy and you are the one talking about skin color. In this thread, I have stated that not all whites are the problem and I provided examples of that by using information done by whites to discuss the issues. So stop crying. This thread is to allow those like you to understand the manner in which the government has participated at every level to create and maintain a system of white racial preference that still exists at this very moment.

This is about a system built on a pattern of behavior and belief by members of the white community. This is not just looking at whites and calling all them racists. But this is how it goes every fucking time because people like you have white fragility and instead of looking at the big picture I have to read about what the fuck you haven't done. Well motherfucker, somebody white is doing it and we all know that, so then maybe you try stopping it instead of whining about a racism that's not there because you can't handle the truth.

Oh, so any liberal white person that regurgitates the crap that you're pushing ISN'T a racist...but all the rest of us are? You know what's sad, IM2! The white people that you love to quote are the very same people who have put blacks on the government "plantation" going all the way back to LBJ! They treat you like victims...not grown adults...and you let them do it. Then they turn around and use what they spouted as "proof" that they aren't racist...that THEY have your best interests at heart!
But do they REALLY? What has sixty years of being treated like children done for the black people of America?

Did you ever listen to Liberals discussing minorities?
Minorities are helpless without Whitey.

 

[irosie91]

Did IM2 say anything like the above? He quoted many academic studies, and most of them were well worth reading. When he defends Obama — a genuinely well educated man; when he uses W.E.B. Dubois as his avatar — a man who could outthink any one of us in several languages, he doesn’t show disrespect for academic achievement. Yet he gets insulted by many here just for supporting his party and the party of Obama and most African-Americans!

Attempting to correct racial disparities requires a complete and open-minded exploration of the causes for those disparities.. Blaming racism before you DO THAT is too convenient and simplistic. MANY of those causes are SYSTEMIC -- and only affect the black community in an unequal manner BECAUSE of education and economic gaps.. The Big Three being education, economic income and access to EQUAL and ACCOMMODATING justice that takes into account the special needs of folks living on the edge of economic ruin.

NOWHERE did I mention Obama.. NOWHERE did I demean Dubois or ANY OTHER black high academic achiever.. In FACT -- I've REPEATEDLY suggested that SUCCESSFUL and high achieving blacks BE used as role models.. Don't give a damn about their politics.. IM2 in the past has posted mind numbing crap about "math and science" as being "racist".. He's DISSED high acheiving blacks that dont fit his political views REPEATEDLY.. Its VERY political how he excommunicates high achieving blacks that DO NOT FIT HIS POLITICS... I don't play that game, because I'm a FIXER of things. Not a demagogue.

Fair enough. I didn’t mean you when I said people insult IM2 — and others — just for supporting “the party of Obama and most African Americans.” I am happy if you respect the intelligence and academic achievement of men like W.E.B. DuBois, who himself lived a long life in which he was at different times a Lincoln-admiring Republican, a leader of the NAACP, a Socialist and a Pan-Africanist. I haven’t been here long, haven’t seen what you say about IM2, or know you or many people here well. If I strongly disagree with IM2 about such matters in the future, I hope I will find a way to express myself in a constructive way. That is sometimes all we can do when we disagree ... especially about politics.

Can't we all just "get along" ??? Actually not really a rhetorical question.. Because after going 20 or 30 pages with some of the "black educators" here -- the most IMPORTANT thing you'll learn TP, is that they are afeared of stuff like "racial reconcilation".. Aint shopping for any improved "social interactions that might result from honest discussion.. Because IF that happened, THEY would become irrelevant.. In a Kumbaya world -- some of resident "grievance scholars" would be VERY unhappy that the PAST and history is IN the past..

Nobody here is scared of racial reconciliation but you. And you prove that with what you just told Paine. You believe that crazy shit. You are the one that cannot handle honest discussion. An honest discussion means you are able to accept that past racism has caused damage that continues now as well ads the fact that continuing racism by whites exacerbates the already unfixed damage. Instead you offer solutions like blacks moving into all white rural towns.

You are pissed...you have no path within you for forgiveness....and you weren't even alive back then.....

I am alive now and have seen 59 years of continuing white racism.

You are incapable of seeing anything else.....

Wrong. You just can't deal with a black person speaking the truth.

^^^^^^ bs ^^^^^^
IM2, you would not know the truth if it
came at you chicken fried and with
collard greens. You have been brain
washed by acid head sophists

It's funny how whites like you try telling me things. You are a white female. Maybe you should think about your condition.

OH!!!!! you mean that I should go around INCESSANTLY quoting "THE FEMININE MYSTIQUE"
and define all of the human condition and history
of the WORLD as being a matter of PERVASIVE
MYSOGYNY? ------nope!!! no thanks----I will
not be the "white female" version of
BLACK NATIONALIST IM-2

I am not a black nationalist you ignorant trash bag.. You will not see me asking for a separate black nation at any time. I will continue to demand the complete eradication of white racism, I will continue to demand that whites like you get off your sorry excuse making asses and do what it takes to rid the white community of it's racism, and I will continue to demand that the government of this country do what is necessary to fix the damage continuing white racism has wrought on the black community as well as other communities of color to include the demand for economic equality.

You are just going to have to live with that.

I am fascinated. Please define your terms. What is
a "community of color" ? You are, indeed--by your
words "a black nationalist"

 

[IM2]

RACIAL GASLIGHTING

Gaslighting is “the action or process of manipulating a person by psychological means into questioning his or her own sanity.”

The term comes from the 1944 George Cukor film, Gaslight, in which Ingrid Bergman’s character, Paula, is manipulated into questioning her own lived experiences by an abusive husband who dismisses them as exaggerations and imaginations.

Hmmm. Now, if only this could serve as some sort of powerful metaphor for people of colour who, every time they bring up racism, have their lived expeiriences dismissed as exaggerations and imagina….. waaaaaaaait a minute!

The media response to the whole Meghan Markle racism situation that came up in early 2020 was Racial Gaslighting at its finest.

Every time. Every time there’s any hint of racism that garners public attention – Meghan Markle, Stormzy, Raheem Sterling – a bloat of white men host their television and radio shows, bleating “I see no racism!” as if their definition and understanding of the topic is the unquestionable truth.

Black and brown bodies are wheeled out to comment, while our national treasures(?) dutifully act as proxy for the viewing public by asking for more examples, for clarification, for explanation. “But is it reeeeeally racist though?” they ask with faux concern and body language that they think looks open to hearing and learning (reader, it does not).

Then – if the funny tinged bodies are actually allowed to get a fucking word in edgeways – they are met with some combination of defensiveness, anger, disbelief, and mockery.

Let’s not mince our words here, this is a form of abuse.

“Gaslighting is a tactic in which a person or entity, in order to gain more power, makes a victim question their reality… it is a common technique of abusers, dictators, narcissists, and cult leaders.”
– Psychology Today

Angelique Davis and Rose Ernst define Racial Gaslighting as “the political, social, economic and cultural process that perpetuates and normalizes a white supremacist reality through pathologizing those who resist.” In other words, exactly the process I’ve just described and that you’ve seen happen time and time again.

The frustrating thing is that bringing these instances of racism into focus could spark something meaningful. We could be having a nuanced discussion about racism in the UK, about privilege and power. But instead, with all the inevitability of a Spiderman reboot, it descends into a shouting match, as those with the power that they deny they have, direct and dominate the conversation.

“You’re the one with the problem here. You’re always crying racism when it’s not there. Why do you always have to play the race card? If anything, you’re the one who’s being racist.”

One tactic that you can look out for is the switching of narrative from one about race to one in which class becomes the predominant issue (this is used a lot in discussions about privilege). Another related example might be switching the narrative to one in which white, privileged men (because it’s always men) are the ones who are so fucking hard done by.

“It’s so hard being a straight, white man. These days, you can’t say anything racist without being accused of racism.”

These switches serve only to conceal structures of white privilege and white supremacy – thus ensuring that they remain firmly in place. And this is what underpins Racial Gaslighting.

If the conversation becomes one about whether or not it’s racist to call someone ‘a privileged white man’ (and I’ll give you a clue here- it is fucking not), then we’re no longer talking about what actually matters.

“You’re the one with the problem here. You’re always crying racism when it’s not there. Why do you always have to play the race card? If anything, you’re the one who’s being racist.”

Instead of talking about structural racism, we’re forced to spend time, effort, and emotional labour defending ourselves against these accusations. Or, like Bergman’s character, we start to question and doubt ourselves, and eventually just go completely fucking insane. This is what people mean when they say racism is a mental health issue.

And it’s why racism and talking about racism is so fucking tiring for people of colour – well, one of the many, many reasons anyway. Imagine trying to tell people something important, something that maybe even your life depended on. Yet not only do those people refuse to believe you, but they also belittle your experience and perspective at every turn.

Exaggerations and imaginations.

Well. Yes. That.

Racial Gaslighting – What the Meghan Markle debate reveals about racism in the UK.

Ooof. Where to start. Right, let’s start at the beginning. Gaslighting is “the action or process of manipulating a person by psychological means into questioning his or her own sanity.” The t…

myblackface.wordpress.com

This applies to America and we see it in USMB all the time.

 

[IM2]

Old style would say the Puritans came to America for the higher wages, that Jews liberated from concentration camps went to Israel for better wages, that Americans fought for independence just for money, that Americans went overseas to fight and die during WWII to advance their careers ...

IM2 would say that the Puritans came to American because of racism...that Jews went to Israel because of racism...that American fought the Revolutionary war because of racism...that they also fought and died in WWII because of racism. It's a one size fits all with IM2 and Milkweed. Racism...racism and racism!

No, I would say that puritans came to America to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs. I would say that the revolutionary war was fought by the white colonists over the unfairness of being subject the British rule without being represented. I would say that soldiers like my dad fought in WW2 to stop the Germans, Italians and Japanese. Only a retard like you thinks I make everything about racism. I make racism about racism. IT'S NOT MY FAULT THAT WHITES LIKE YOU CONTINUE THE RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY.

How dare you say anything about the Puritans! You're black and they were white! According to you...only a white person who's relatives were Puritans can know the TRUTH about the Puritans! (eye roll) ...

Your eye rolling to the contrary notwithstanding, you miss the point ... again.

I don’t need a lesson on why Puritans came to this country, either, thank you very much. IM2 is wrong, by the way. The Puritans DID NOT come to these shores “to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs.“

But IM2 of course would not, and did not, say it was because of racism.

I could go on and talk about the importance for historians to research actual historical accounts, diaries, and verbal interviews where possible to uncover motivation, as distinct from theorizing abstractly or being a crude “historical materialist.” I don’t know, but I fear that might be lost on you. It seems to me you are not approaching these questions objectively, but emotionally, just as you accuse IM2 of doing.

I think katsteve2012 has the best overall take on this question. He tries to see it in its many different dimensions.

I'm approaching this "emotionally"? With all due respect, Tom...I could care less about this topic. I simply find IM2 to be myopic in his views of history and I enjoy picking on him by pointing out how myopic those views are! You want "emotion"? Talk to IM2 and Milk Weed! They'll give you all the drama and emotion you can handle!

There is nothing myopic about how I have approached this or my view of American racial history. You seek excuses so you as a white person can feel better. That's all your opposition is about. You aren't picking and showing anything but your abject ignorance. I am correct in this matter and whatever you called yourself doing has failed.

How is this making me feel better as a white person? I've never been a racist. I judge people by their actions not their skin pigmentation. You on the other hand are one of the most racist people I've ever run across. You judge people solely by their skin color and THAT my friend makes you as myopic as it gets!

Spare me your lies about how you judge people. This thread has been about government policy and you are the one talking about skin color. In this thread, I have stated that not all whites are the problem and I provided examples of that by using information done by whites to discuss the issues. So stop crying. This thread is to allow those like you to understand the manner in which the government has participated at every level to create and maintain a system of white racial preference that still exists at this very moment.

This is about a system built on a pattern of behavior and belief by members of the white community. This is not just looking at whites and calling all them racists. But this is how it goes every fucking time because people like you have white fragility and instead of looking at the big picture I have to read about what the fuck you haven't done. Well motherfucker, somebody white is doing it and we all know that, so then maybe you try stopping it instead of whining about a racism that's not there because you can't handle the truth.

Oh, so any liberal white person that regurgitates the crap that you're pushing ISN'T a racist...but all the rest of us are? You know what's sad, IM2! The white people that you love to quote are the very same people who have put blacks on the government "plantation" going all the way back to LBJ! They treat you like victims...not grown adults...and you let them do it. Then they turn around and use what they spouted as "proof" that they aren't racist...that THEY have your best interests at heart!
But do they REALLY? What has sixty years of being treated like children done for the black people of America?

Did you ever listen to Liberals discussing minorities?
Minorities are helpless without Whitey.

You do understand that you are lying?

Liberals exist here and they aren't doing this. You republicans are trying to gaslight in the hope that you can get just enough blacks to become republicans so that you can implement your white racist agenda.

You guys spew racism every motherfucking day, then try telling me how everyvody but you is a racist.

 

[Indeependent]

Old style would say the Puritans came to America for the higher wages, that Jews liberated from concentration camps went to Israel for better wages, that Americans fought for independence just for money, that Americans went overseas to fight and die during WWII to advance their careers ...

IM2 would say that the Puritans came to American because of racism...that Jews went to Israel because of racism...that American fought the Revolutionary war because of racism...that they also fought and died in WWII because of racism. It's a one size fits all with IM2 and Milkweed. Racism...racism and racism!

No, I would say that puritans came to America to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs. I would say that the revolutionary war was fought by the white colonists over the unfairness of being subject the British rule without being represented. I would say that soldiers like my dad fought in WW2 to stop the Germans, Italians and Japanese. Only a retard like you thinks I make everything about racism. I make racism about racism. IT'S NOT MY FAULT THAT WHITES LIKE YOU CONTINUE THE RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY.

How dare you say anything about the Puritans! You're black and they were white! According to you...only a white person who's relatives were Puritans can know the TRUTH about the Puritans! (eye roll) ...

Your eye rolling to the contrary notwithstanding, you miss the point ... again.

I don’t need a lesson on why Puritans came to this country, either, thank you very much. IM2 is wrong, by the way. The Puritans DID NOT come to these shores “to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs.“

But IM2 of course would not, and did not, say it was because of racism.

I could go on and talk about the importance for historians to research actual historical accounts, diaries, and verbal interviews where possible to uncover motivation, as distinct from theorizing abstractly or being a crude “historical materialist.” I don’t know, but I fear that might be lost on you. It seems to me you are not approaching these questions objectively, but emotionally, just as you accuse IM2 of doing.

I think katsteve2012 has the best overall take on this question. He tries to see it in its many different dimensions.

I'm approaching this "emotionally"? With all due respect, Tom...I could care less about this topic. I simply find IM2 to be myopic in his views of history and I enjoy picking on him by pointing out how myopic those views are! You want "emotion"? Talk to IM2 and Milk Weed! They'll give you all the drama and emotion you can handle!

There is nothing myopic about how I have approached this or my view of American racial history. You seek excuses so you as a white person can feel better. That's all your opposition is about. You aren't picking and showing anything but your abject ignorance. I am correct in this matter and whatever you called yourself doing has failed.

How is this making me feel better as a white person? I've never been a racist. I judge people by their actions not their skin pigmentation. You on the other hand are one of the most racist people I've ever run across. You judge people solely by their skin color and THAT my friend makes you as myopic as it gets!

Spare me your lies about how you judge people. This thread has been about government policy and you are the one talking about skin color. In this thread, I have stated that not all whites are the problem and I provided examples of that by using information done by whites to discuss the issues. So stop crying. This thread is to allow those like you to understand the manner in which the government has participated at every level to create and maintain a system of white racial preference that still exists at this very moment.

This is about a system built on a pattern of behavior and belief by members of the white community. This is not just looking at whites and calling all them racists. But this is how it goes every fucking time because people like you have white fragility and instead of looking at the big picture I have to read about what the fuck you haven't done. Well motherfucker, somebody white is doing it and we all know that, so then maybe you try stopping it instead of whining about a racism that's not there because you can't handle the truth.

Oh, so any liberal white person that regurgitates the crap that you're pushing ISN'T a racist...but all the rest of us are? You know what's sad, IM2! The white people that you love to quote are the very same people who have put blacks on the government "plantation" going all the way back to LBJ! They treat you like victims...not grown adults...and you let them do it. Then they turn around and use what they spouted as "proof" that they aren't racist...that THEY have your best interests at heart!
But do they REALLY? What has sixty years of being treated like children done for the black people of America?

Did you ever listen to Liberals discussing minorities?
Minorities are helpless without Whitey.

You do understand that you are lying?

Liberals exist here and they aren't doing this. You republicans are trying to gaslight in the hope that you can get just enough blacks to become republicans so that you can implement your white racist agenda.

You guys spew racism every motherfucking day, then try telling me how everyvody but you is a racist.

You listened to White Liberals talking to each other in Church when they didn't see you were within earshot?