Social Justice

[Saigon]

dblack -

While I think most people would agree that there should be a single concept of law and justice for everyone, it also makes complete sense that the extreme injustice and racism such as the US experienced up until the mid-1960's requires special protection for the victims - otherwise the racism would never end.

I would say the same about Jews from 1945, both in Europe and the US.

I don't feel the US now requires special protection for those groups.

 

[dblack]

dblack -

While I think most people would agree that there should be a single concept of law and justice for everyone, it also makes complete sense that the extreme injustice and racism such as the US experienced up until the mid-1960's requires special protection for the victims - otherwise the racism would never end.

I would say the same about Jews from 1945, both in Europe and the US.

I don't feel the US now requires special protection for those groups.

I don't agree. It might be more effective in the short term (force generally is), but taking the 'easy' route sacrifices the fundamental premise of equal rights. If the special protections had been a temporary "emergency" measure, as you seem to suggest should have been the case, it might not have been so bad. But giving government extra power for emergencies is almost never 'temporary'. And the wedge of civil rights laws (among other things) has been used to undermine equal protection and replace it with corporatist group rights.

 

[Redfish]

dblack -

While I think most people would agree that there should be a single concept of law and justice for everyone, it also makes complete sense that the extreme injustice and racism such as the US experienced up until the mid-1960's requires special protection for the victims - otherwise the racism would never end.

I would say the same about Jews from 1945, both in Europe and the US.

I don't feel the US now requires special protection for those groups.

I agree, but the left wing of our population is determined to use "social justice" to achieve income and wealth equality and to remove individual rights to keep what has been earned.

social justice is marxism in its current form

 

[rightwinger]

Social Justice, wihile proclaiming that everyone is "Equal" demands that women and non-whites are treated with special laws and protections that males and Whites do not get.

It does make me laugh that posters who are probably old enough to remember the Freedom Buses and lynchings seem to think white men need protection from non-whites.

That's not the issue at all. The issue is that "special laws and protections" undermine the concept of equal protection in ways that will come back to haunt us (already are, actually). Corporatism is not a joke. It's serious, and mostly unnoticed, threat to the foundations of liberal democracy.

We used to have laws that guaranteed preferential treatment for white males. We ended up repealing those laws. That didn't mean everyone was now treated equal. We still had a societal preference for white males

Any laws tha attempt to remove that preference are protested by certain rightwing males

 

[rightwinger]

dblack -

While I think most people would agree that there should be a single concept of law and justice for everyone, it also makes complete sense that the extreme injustice and racism such as the US experienced up until the mid-1960's requires special protection for the victims - otherwise the racism would never end.

I would say the same about Jews from 1945, both in Europe and the US.

I don't feel the US now requires special protection for those groups.

I agree, but the left wing of our population is determined to use "social justice" to achieve income and wealth equality and to remove individual rights to keep what has been earned.

social justice is marxism in its current form

It is not a question of confiscating existing wealth but one of why our society continues laws and regulations that encourage the rich to get richer?

 

[dblack]

We used to have laws that guaranteed preferential treatment for white males. We ended up repealing those laws. That didn't mean everyone was now treated equal. We still had a societal preference for white males

Any laws tha attempt to remove that preference are protested by certain rightwing males

And that gets to the core of the issue. Should government have the power to dictate 'societal preferences'? This is the difference between equal rights under the law, and using the law to demand equal treatment from everyone you meet (which requires decidedly unequal treatment under the law)

 

[Redfish]

dblack -

While I think most people would agree that there should be a single concept of law and justice for everyone, it also makes complete sense that the extreme injustice and racism such as the US experienced up until the mid-1960's requires special protection for the victims - otherwise the racism would never end.

I would say the same about Jews from 1945, both in Europe and the US.

I don't feel the US now requires special protection for those groups.

I agree, but the left wing of our population is determined to use "social justice" to achieve income and wealth equality and to remove individual rights to keep what has been earned.

social justice is marxism in its current form

It is not a question of confiscating existing wealth but one of why our society continues laws and regulations that encourage the rich to get richer?

and exactly what laws would those be? certainly not the tax code, the super rich are already paying most of the federal income tax bill.

give us a list of the current laws that "encourage the rich to get richer"

 

[Redfish]

It does make me laugh that posters who are probably old enough to remember the Freedom Buses and lynchings seem to think white men need protection from non-whites.

That's not the issue at all. The issue is that "special laws and protections" undermine the concept of equal protection in ways that will come back to haunt us (already are, actually). Corporatism is not a joke. It's serious, and mostly unnoticed, threat to the foundations of liberal democracy.

We used to have laws that guaranteed preferential treatment for white males. We ended up repealing those laws. That didn't mean everyone was now treated equal. We still had a societal preference for white males

Any laws tha attempt to remove that preference are protested by certain rightwing males

you, like most liberals, are trying to invoke thought control. you are trying to mandate how people feel about other people.

who today in the USA does not have equal opportunity to improve their station in life and become wealthy? Who? Yes, it may be harder for some than others--but thats just life.

 

[rightwinger]

I agree, but the left wing of our population is determined to use "social justice" to achieve income and wealth equality and to remove individual rights to keep what has been earned.

social justice is marxism in its current form

It is not a question of confiscating existing wealth but one of why our society continues laws and regulations that encourage the rich to get richer?

and exactly what laws would those be? certainly not the tax code, the super rich are already paying most of the federal income tax bill.

give us a list of the current laws that "encourage the rich to get richer"

Absolutely a tax code that allows the wealthy to pay the lowest tax rates in history.
Add in subsidies, easing of environmental regulations, labor laws, holding down the minimum wage, access to lobbyists

 

[rightwinger]

That's not the issue at all. The issue is that "special laws and protections" undermine the concept of equal protection in ways that will come back to haunt us (already are, actually). Corporatism is not a joke. It's serious, and mostly unnoticed, threat to the foundations of liberal democracy.

We used to have laws that guaranteed preferential treatment for white males. We ended up repealing those laws. That didn't mean everyone was now treated equal. We still had a societal preference for white males

Any laws tha attempt to remove that preference are protested by certain rightwing males

you, like most liberals, are trying to invoke thought control. you are trying to mandate how people feel about other people.

who today in the USA does not have equal opportunity to improve their station in life and become wealthy? Who? Yes, it may be harder for some than others--but thats just life.

Thought control? Really?

You are still allowed to hate anyone you choose. You just can't force the government to back you up

 

[Redfish]

It is not a question of confiscating existing wealth but one of why our society continues laws and regulations that encourage the rich to get richer?

and exactly what laws would those be? certainly not the tax code, the super rich are already paying most of the federal income tax bill.

give us a list of the current laws that "encourage the rich to get richer"

Absolutely a tax code that allows the wealthy to pay the lowest tax rates in history.
Add in subsidies, easing of environmental regulations, labor laws, holding down the minimum wage, access to lobbyists

first, the tax code was written mostly by the party that has controlled congress for most of the last 75 years---the democrats. half of the country pays zero federal income tax, are you claiming that the ultra rich pay less than zero?

please look up the word "subidies" tax credits and deductions are not subsidies.

the environmental regs are more stringent today than ever before.

what "labor laws" make the rich richer?

the minimum wage has been steadliy going up for years under both parties---and it kills jobs every time it is raised.

 

[dblack]

We used to have laws that guaranteed preferential treatment for white males. We ended up repealing those laws. That didn't mean everyone was now treated equal. We still had a societal preference for white males

Any laws tha attempt to remove that preference are protested by certain rightwing males

you, like most liberals, are trying to invoke thought control. you are trying to mandate how people feel about other people.

who today in the USA does not have equal opportunity to improve their station in life and become wealthy? Who? Yes, it may be harder for some than others--but thats just life.

Thought control? Really?

You are still allowed to hate anyone you choose. You just can't force the government to back you up

And if that were the extent of it, you'd have a good point. But you know better.

 

[dblack]

It is not a question of confiscating existing wealth but one of why our society continues laws and regulations that encourage the rich to get richer?

and exactly what laws would those be? certainly not the tax code, the super rich are already paying most of the federal income tax bill.

give us a list of the current laws that "encourage the rich to get richer"

Absolutely a tax code that allows the wealthy to pay the lowest tax rates in history.
Add in subsidies, easing of environmental regulations, labor laws, holding down the minimum wage, access to lobbyists

Agreed (with the exception of the "holding down the minimum wage" - no law does that). Unequal treatment under the law isn't just 'social' injustice, it's a plain old injustice. And that's what we should be fighting - both left and right.

Instead, we're rapidly descending into a mode of government where unequal treatment is SOP.

 

[rightwinger]

and exactly what laws would those be? certainly not the tax code, the super rich are already paying most of the federal income tax bill.

give us a list of the current laws that "encourage the rich to get richer"

Absolutely a tax code that allows the wealthy to pay the lowest tax rates in history.
Add in subsidies, easing of environmental regulations, labor laws, holding down the minimum wage, access to lobbyists

Agreed (with the exception of the "holding down the minimum wage" - no law does that). Unequal treatment under the law isn't just 'social' injustice, it's a plain old injustice. And that's what we should be fighting - both left and right.

Instead, we're rapidly descending into a mode of government where unequal treatment is SOP.

Redistribution of wealth is already happening. It is moving from the working class to our wealthiest Americans. Why are we continuing policies that contribute to it?

 

[gallantwarrior]

and exactly what laws would those be? certainly not the tax code, the super rich are already paying most of the federal income tax bill.

give us a list of the current laws that "encourage the rich to get richer"

Absolutely a tax code that allows the wealthy to pay the lowest tax rates in history.
Add in subsidies, easing of environmental regulations, labor laws, holding down the minimum wage, access to lobbyists

Agreed (with the exception of the "holding down the minimum wage" - no law does that). Unequal treatment under the law isn't just 'social' injustice, it's a plain old injustice. And that's what we should be fighting - both left and right.

Instead, we're rapidly descending into a mode of government where unequal treatment is SOP.

Depending on which sub-group the pols are pandering to at the moment.

 

[Redfish]

Absolutely a tax code that allows the wealthy to pay the lowest tax rates in history.
Add in subsidies, easing of environmental regulations, labor laws, holding down the minimum wage, access to lobbyists

Agreed (with the exception of the "holding down the minimum wage" - no law does that). Unequal treatment under the law isn't just 'social' injustice, it's a plain old injustice. And that's what we should be fighting - both left and right.

Instead, we're rapidly descending into a mode of government where unequal treatment is SOP.

Redistribution of wealth is already happening. It is moving from the working class to our wealthiest Americans. Why are we continuing policies that contribute to it?

I asked you to identify which policies are doing that---still waiting for an answer. Your previous attempt failed badly. Got anything else?

 

[dblack]

Absolutely a tax code that allows the wealthy to pay the lowest tax rates in history.
Add in subsidies, easing of environmental regulations, labor laws, holding down the minimum wage, access to lobbyists

Agreed (with the exception of the "holding down the minimum wage" - no law does that). Unequal treatment under the law isn't just 'social' injustice, it's a plain old injustice. And that's what we should be fighting - both left and right.

Instead, we're rapidly descending into a mode of government where unequal treatment is SOP.

Redistribution of wealth is already happening. It is moving from the working class to our wealthiest Americans. Why are we continuing policies that contribute to it?

Well, that's the irony of it all, and something we really all need to wake up and take notice of. When we set government up to be something more than impartial referee, to instead be an active player in deciding who gets what in society, it will use that power to do things we don't like. It will use that power to do favors for groups who aren't exactly 'disadvantaged minorities'.

 

[rightwinger]

Agreed (with the exception of the "holding down the minimum wage" - no law does that). Unequal treatment under the law isn't just 'social' injustice, it's a plain old injustice. And that's what we should be fighting - both left and right.

Instead, we're rapidly descending into a mode of government where unequal treatment is SOP.

Redistribution of wealth is already happening. It is moving from the working class to our wealthiest Americans. Why are we continuing policies that contribute to it?

I asked you to identify which policies are doing that---still waiting for an answer. Your previous attempt failed badly. Got anything else?

Been there done that

 

[Redfish]

Redistribution of wealth is already happening. It is moving from the working class to our wealthiest Americans. Why are we continuing policies that contribute to it?

I asked you to identify which policies are doing that---still waiting for an answer. Your previous attempt failed badly. Got anything else?

Been there done that

No, you have not. But your surrender is accepted

 

[rightwinger]

I asked you to identify which policies are doing that---still waiting for an answer. Your previous attempt failed badly. Got anything else?

Been there done that

No, you have not. But your surrender is accepted

Self declared victories are so satisfying