Zone1 Sola scriptura (Scripture alone [is all that's needed]) is demolished with one sentence

[Meriweather]

By your arguments it is evident that you follow the catechism rather than the scriptures. My suggestion to you is to stick to the scscriptures. I also encourage you to read my post about leaving Catholicism. I cite a LOT of scripture.

Again, I did read your post. You left a lot out.

 

[K9Buck]

Again, I did read your post. You left a lot out.

Then quote me and respond, biblically, if you can.

 

[JustAGuy1]

Exactly . I made the same comment in a very recent similar thread .
That is, Jesus was long dead when the Gnostic books were all available and the authors inevitably were working from memory or repeated information passed mouth to mouth .
So , Jesus did not actively and directly figure in the assembly of any of their mumbo jumbo.

Quite separately Jesus never died in around AD33 and was still preaching around Asia Minor until ca. AD 62 , a married man with a daughter and two sons .
The Cultists simply cannot even consider that evidence as it invalidates the unwitting scam completely .

They therefore fall back on Faith and final redemption -- a hopeless cop out .

LOL, too funny.

 

[Meriweather]

I just feel like discussing the word of God with you is fruitless because you don't (apparently) share my belief in the validity of the screen. You are citing doctrines that are nowhere in said scriptures. We have no common point of reference. It would be like me debating a Buddhist.

Maybe that's the difference. I am not debating. I am presenting other points for discussion. I am not after winning anything. I am guessing you have no idea how much I have studied scripture and God's people--and am therefore reminded how much more there is to God working with us.

It is merely a guess, but for some reason as you grew, you seemed to follow the Church? I never had that issue. The Church was/is always pointing to God, not itself. From my youngest days, I've always been reaching towards God, always conscious of the Body of Christ. You seem to think it is very important Mary be tossed out of the Body of Christ. I thought I had Mother Issues--but you certainly have me beat in that regard. Mary was a mother and therefore I avoided her like the plague. Even so, I have always recognized her as a member of the Body of Christ--and as someone Jesus loved, someone who loved Jesus like no other.

 

[Meriweather]

Then quote me and respond, biblically, if you can.

I have been responding Biblically. You don't seem to recognize it.

 

[K9Buck]

You seem to think it is very important Mary be tossed out of the Body of Christ. I thought I had Mother Issues--but you certainly have me beat in that regard.

Mary was a humble, faithful, servant of God. She must be respected and admired, just as we do for the Apostles and many others.

Why do you believe that God wants us to pray to Mary rather than to him? Where is the scripture? The obvious answer is that it doesn't exist.

 

[K9Buck]

I have been responding Biblically. You don't seem to recognize it.

You don't share scriptures. Again, you are muddying the water to try and win an argument. Paul told us the scriptures are good for reproof, but you ignore Paul. Unless you want to begin responding scripturally our discussion here will soon conclude.

 

[Meriweather]

Why do you believe that God wants us to pray to Mary rather than to him?

I don't believe that. How did you jump to the conclusion that I do? What's more, Catholics don't believe that. Did you believe that as a Catholic, that God didn't want you to pray to Him?

Where is the scripture? The obvious answer is that it doesn't exist.

So...God doesn't want us talking to anyone but Him? Are you imagining Jesus in quite a snit whenever Peter spoke to his brother, Andrew, let alone any of the other Apostles?

Imagine, if you will, your dad telling you that you could never talk to your mom or any of your brothers and sisters--only to him. And you imagine God is like that?

I love St. Teresa of Avila who once was going through a very tough day and said to God, "Why do you treat me like this?" God answered, "It is how I treat all of my friends." St. Teresa retorted, "No wonder you have so few!" I often include St. Teresa in prayer time after one of those days. Does this horrify you?

You know who is larger than scripture? God. Jesus is larger than scripture, and he has gathered to himself the Body of Christ, which by definition is also larger than scripture.

Think about this: Have you replaced the Church with Scripture? If so...perhaps the next step is to replace scripture with God...with Christ and the Body of Christ.

 

[Meriweather]

You don't share scriptures. Again, you are muddying the water to try and win an argument. Paul told us the scriptures are good for reproof, but you ignore Paul. Unless you want to begin responding scripturally our discussion here will soon conclude.

I am not arguing. You are seeing an argument I am not making which makes me wonder if the argument is not within yourself?

Are you sure you are not after an argument about scripture?

 

[K9Buck]

I am not arguing. You are seeing an argument I am not making which makes me wonder if the argument is not within yourself?

Are you sure you are not after an argument about scripture?

No offense, but I'm going to go with God's word over your opinions.

 

[Meriweather]

No offense, but I'm going to go with God's word over your opinions.

Why would I be offended? My opinions are mine, all mine! Stay away from them.

That's kind of like saying, No offense, but I am going to buy my flowers at a florists instead of taking one from your garden."

 

[K9Buck]

Why would I be offended? My opinions are mine, all mine! Stay away from them.

That's kind of like saying, No offense, but I am going to buy my flowers at a florists instead of taking one from your garden."

Ok. All good my brother! You know we're ALL eventually going to end up in Heaven, right? Naysayers will be believers when they see Hitler and Netanyahu playing frisbee in Heaven, but that's another thread.

 

[Meriweather]

Ok. All good my brother! You know we're ALL eventually going to end up in Heaven, right? Naysayers will be believers when they see Hitler and Netanyahu playing frisbee in Heaven, but that's another thread.

God works with the broken. However, some do not want to be healed. Would Hitler and Netanyahu be happy as servants of God and the people they ruled over? Pharaoh is an example. Some meet God and/or the word of God upon them is like wax in sunshine. We melt. Others meet God and/or the word of God like clay in sunshine. They harden. God began our creation, but then we became co-creators of who we are choosing to become. Clay or wax.

One theory of some of Hitler's action is that his brain had been tweaked due to venereal disease. If God healed him from that disease, would he be different. Not ours to judge whether Hitler chose to be clay or whether a disease was in play. I don't know where Hitler is, but nor would I ever suggest he is in heaven as his last acts upon earth were the antithesis of Kingdom life. But, his fate is in God's hands, and those hands I trust.

 

[LeroyDumonde]

2 Timothy 3:16-17
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

The Apostle Paul wrote that. Paul had been visited by Jesus himself as well as the Holy Spirit. Paul said that the scriptures were sufficient for the man of God to be COMPLETE.

When looking at instances of the word scripture(s) in the Bible every other instance is in reference to the Old Testament. Sola scriptura would then require Christians to only use the Old Testament, which doesn't include 2 Timothy. There's also the secondary problem of whether Paul actually wrote 2 Timothy.

A few centuries later the Holy Spirit, I believe, guided the original church into compiling the scriptures into a Bible. Long thereafter, the church in Rome (and others) began teaching doctrines that were not in the scriptures or were even contrary to the scriptures.

The Holy Spirit guiding the original church isn't sola scriptura. So if 2 Timothy is referring to writings other than the OT then there's the problem of which writings. Or do we take literally all writings as scripture? I don't think that's what the author meant. 2 Timothy 3:15 refers to the holy scriptures that the reader knew from childhood. That would certainly exclude 2 Timothy. All in all it appears that the author was talking just about the Old Testament.

What the Catholic Church has essentially said is that Jesus and his apostles neglected to include many doctrines in the original scriptures and so the CC is correcting their negligence by introducing additional doctrines. In other words, they have granted themselves a license to make up anything they want. Paul warned against this, yet they ignored it.

Galatians 1:8-12 NKJV But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

That opens up another can of worms. How do we know exactly what gospel was taught to the Galatians? For example, the 4 canonical gospels contain a wealth of information about the life of Jesus that isn't found in any of Paul's writings. Should we discount the gospels since there's no indication that Paul taught them to the Galatians?

 

[K9Buck]

When looking at instances of the word scripture(s) in the Bible every other instance is in reference to the Old Testament. Sola scriptura would then require Christians to only use the Old Testament, which doesn't include 2 Timothy. There's also the secondary problem of whether Paul actually wrote 2 Timothy.


The Holy Spirit guiding the original church isn't sola scriptura. So if 2 Timothy is referring to writings other than the OT then there's the problem of which writings. Or do we take literally all writings as scripture? I don't think that's what the author meant. 2 Timothy 3:15 refers to the holy scriptures that the reader knew from childhood. That would certainly exclude 2 Timothy. All in all it appears that the author was talking just about the Old Testament.


That opens up another can of worms. How do we know exactly what gospel was taught to the Galatians? For example, the 4 canonical gospels contain a wealth of information about the life of Jesus that isn't found in any of Paul's writings. Should we discount the gospels since there's no indication that Paul taught them to the Galatians?

The original Bible is considered scripture as it includes the writings of Jesus's apostles and their disciples. Centuries later the church in Rome began introducing doctrines that were foreign to the writings of the apostles and disciples. The Catholic Church decided that they have the authority to create whatever doctrines they like - and they did. Many of their newly created doctrines directly contradict the commandments of Jesus. I'm going to stick to the teachings of Jesus and his apostles. You're certainly free to ignore Jesus and go with the teachings of men that came about 1,200 years after Jesus.

 

[LeroyDumonde]

The original Bible is considered scripture as it includes the writings of Jesus's apostles and their disciples. Centuries later the church in Rome began introducing doctrines that were foreign to the writings of the apostles and disciples. The Catholic Church decided that they have the authority to create whatever doctrines they like - and they did. Many of their newly created doctrines directly contradict the commandments of Jesus. I'm going to stick to the teachings of Jesus and his apostles.

Since sola scriptura only applies to the Old Testament then you must ignore the New Testament. Either that or give up on sola scriptura.

You're certainly free to ignore Jesus and go with the teachings of men that came about 1,200 years after Jesus.

I'm not a Christian and certainly do ignore Jesus' alleged teachings. But this isn't about what I believe; it's about what the Bible says.

 

[K9Buck]

Since sola scriptura only applies to the Old Testament then you must ignore the New Testament. Either that or give up on sola scriptura.

I'm not a Christian and certainly do ignore Jesus' alleged teachings. But this isn't about what I believe; it's about what the Bible says.

Ok. We can agree to disagree and leave it there.

 

[JustAGuy1]

You don't share scriptures. Again, you are muddying the water to try and win an argument. Paul told us the scriptures are good for reproof, but you ignore Paul. Unless you want to begin responding scripturally our discussion here will soon conclude.

The whole point of the crucifixion was to was to give man direct access to God.

 

[JustAGuy1]

Since sola scriptura only applies to the Old Testament then you must ignore the New Testament. Either that or give up on sola scriptura.

I'm not a Christian and certainly do ignore Jesus' alleged teachings. But this isn't about what I believe; it's about what the Bible says.

Not true at all. While extra Biblical sources can be helpful if they do not line up perfectly with Scripture they must be discounted.

 

[1miseryindex]

By your arguments it is evident that you follow the catechism rather than the scriptures. My suggestion to you is to stick to the scscriptures. I also encourage you to read my post about leaving Catholicism. I cite a LOT of scripture.

which Protestant Bible are we to read and interpret for ourselves, like a pope?

I'll stick with the most ancient and most trustworthy version of Scripture known to man, the Douay Rheims which is NON interpretative. That means it was directly translated from the original languages of Christ into first Latin and then English, no interpretation given by the translator (St Jerome et al).

Then came Luther who thought he was wiser than Christ's Church and now we have all this mayhem and confusion and people staying away from ANY "church" because they can't see which one is the real deal.

Nice work, arch-heretic, excommunicated Luther!