Solution to high magazine capacity...pass law limiting criminals to 10 round mags...

[tuhaybey]

Let's pass a law that allows criminals to only have 10 round magazines...

The limit to magazine size is about trying to at least reduce the body counts of mass shooters. Are you proposing that we somehow try to guess which gun owners will go active mass shooter? If so, how would we know that? Or are you just saying that after they start killing people, we should stop allowing them to have new magazines over 10 rounds? Because at that point, we're generally trying to arrest or kill them...

The distinction between "criminals" and "law abiding gun owners" is kind of meaningless in general, but especially in the context of mass shooters, which is where the magazine size questions are relevant.

 

[tuhaybey]

I in NO WAY believe the stats in that picture. 6500 times a day? Come on.

Yeah it's fake. It was from a long debunked study. The way they get those numbers is by looking at SELF REPORTED defensive gun uses, not actual defensive gun uses. What happened in that guy's data sample was that he had like 99 people that said they had never used their gun defensively, then 1 gun nut who claimed to use it defensively like 20 times a year... Then he just multiplies that by the whole population and pretends that's the total defensive gun uses... Who knows whether that 1 gun nut is just trying to brag or if they really are waving a gun around at neighborhood kids 20 times a year or what, but yeah, obviously there aren't anywhere near that many defensive uses of guns. There aren't even anywhere near that many violent crimes, let alone violent crimes prevented by the tiny number of people who have a gun on them at any given time...

 

[Politico]

Here's an idea. Lets pass a law that keeps "criminals" behind bars, instead of letting them out on paraole for "good behavior".

We should also find out how many of the shootings are done by police. Oh wait. We can't.
A Shot in the Dark - The Daily Show - Video Clip Comedy Central

 

[2aguy]

So another law does what?

I am trying to help the gun grabbers...trying to meet them half way...they obviously have a problem with standard capacity magazines...so I want to help them with their anxiety...

We make a brand new law...criminals can only use 10 round magazines when they are committing regular street crime and also for when they go on mass shooting sprees...

Thus, according to gun grabber logic...since criminals will be forced by the new law to just use 10 round magazines...problem solved..

Right gun grabbers?

 

[2aguy]

Yeah it's fake. It was from a long debunked study. The way they get those numbers is by looking at SELF REPORTED defensive gun uses, not actual defensive gun uses. What happened in that guy's data sample was that he had like 99 people that said they had never used their gun defensively, then 1 gun nut who claimed to use it defensively like 20 times a year... Then he just multiplies that by the whole population and pretends that's the total defensive gun uses... Who knows whether that 1 gun nut is just trying to brag or if they really are waving a gun around at neighborhood kids 20 times a year or what, but yeah, obviously there aren't anywhere near that many defensive uses of guns. There aren't even anywhere near that many violent crimes, let alone violent crimes prevented by the tiny number of people who have a gun on them at any given time...

Wow....if you actually knew anything about the 19 gun studies from multiple researchers, over 40 years you might know what you are talking about...sadly, you need to do more research...here, let me help...

We'll start with the defense of the Dr. Gary Klecks study...one of the most accurate of the gun studies....

Klecks defense of his study

http://www.rkba.org/research/kleck/md-rebuttal.3sep95
another interview with kleck defending his study...

Private Guns Stop Crime 2.5M Times A Year In US
Defending the 2.5 million number...

Myth 3 - 2.5 million defensive gun uses each year can t be accurate Buckeye Firearms Association


defense of kleck by wolfgang

http://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6854&context=jclc

gun incident counter...murders, self defense accidents

Gun Self Defense Counter Web Widget

kleck vs. national crime victimization survey

How Often Are Firearms Used in Self-Defense

kleck defends various methods

Kleck-Gertz DGU Freq Study gunsandcrime

.............................

And now the other gun studies from multiple researchers over 40 years...the numbers and the year of the study is below...the actual breakdown of the studies and what they looked at is in the links...

From a post where I listed the number of defensive gun uses of various studies...
Okay...again...here are all the studies that actually give numbers for guns used to save lives and stop crimes taken from the table I provided from guncite.com...

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717


Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIa 1978...2,141,512

DMIb...1978...1,098,409

Hart...1981...1.797,461

Ohio...1982...771,043

Mauser...1990...1,487,342

Gallup...1991...777,153

Gallup...1993...1,621,377

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,682

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
(Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text,PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually.)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
.(Lawrence Southwick, Jr.,Guns and Justifiable Homicide: Deterrence and Defense-concludes there are at least 400,000 "fewer violent crimes due to civilian self-defense use of guns" and at least "800,000 violent crimes are deterred each year because of gun ownership and use by civilians.")

Obama's CDC...

from slate.com an article on CDC obama's era...500-3 million defensive gun uses

Handguns suicides mass shootings deaths and self-defense Findings from a research report on gun violence.

7. Guns are used for self-defense often and effectively. “Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year … in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008,” says the report. The three million figure is probably high, “based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.”

"Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year."
As shown in the previous footnote, this study did not use a nationally representative population. To correct for this, Just Facts used the following equation:

As Kleck points out in his paper...

All of the eleven surveys yielded results that implied over 700,000 uses per year. None of the surveys implied estimates even remotely like the 65,000 to 82,000 figures derived from the NCVS. To date, there has been no confirmation of even the most approximate sort of the NCVS estimates. Indeed, no survey has ever yielded an estimate which is of the same magnitude as those derived from the NCVS.​

So....with all of those studies, Dr. Gary Klecks study is not outrageous...and considering that the Justice dept. study puts the number at 1.5 million and Obama's own study through his CDC puts the number between 500,000 and 3 million...and each study is done by different reserchers, both private and government, over a 40 year period...

Tell me they are all wrong...

​

 

[2aguy]

Private Guns Stop Crime 2.5M Times A Year In US

SCHULMAN: Dr. Kleck, can you tell me generally what was discovered in your recent survey that wasn't previously known?

KLECK: Well, the survey mostly generated results pretty consistent with those of a dozen previous surveys which generally indicates that defensive use of guns is pretty common and probably more common than criminal uses of guns. This survey went beyond previous ones in that it provided detail about how often people who had used a gun had done so. We asked people was the gun used defensively in the past five years and if so how many times did that happen and we asked details about what exactly happened. We nailed down that each use being reported was a bona fide defensive use against a human being in connection with a crime where there was an actual confrontation between victim and offender. Previous surveys were a little hazy on the details of exactly what was being reported as a defensive gun use. It wasn't, for example, clear that the respondents weren't reporting investigating a suspicious noise in their back yard with a gun where there was, in fact, nobody there. Our results ended up indicating, depending on which figures you prefer to use, anywhere from 800,000 on up to 2.4, 2.5 million defensive uses of guns against human beings -- not against animals -- by civilians each year.

SCHULMAN: Okay. Let's see if we can pin down some of these figures. I understand you asked questions having to do with just the previous one year. Is that correct?

KLECK: That's correct. We asked both for recollections about the preceding five years and for just what happened in the previous one year, the idea being that people would be able to remember more completely what had happened just in the past year.

SCHULMAN: And your figures reflect this?

KLECK: Yes. The estimates are considerably higher if they're based on people's presumably more-complete recollection of just what happened in the previous year.

 

[2aguy]

Here are some actual facts about Dr. Kleck's methods...

Myth 3 - 2.5 million defensive gun uses each year can t be accurate Buckeye Firearms Association

The data for the Kleck study were collected using an anonymous nationwide random-digit-dialed telephone survey of 4,977 adults conducted from February through April of 1993 by Research Network, a telephone polling company located in Tallahassee, FL. After a few general questions about problems in their community and crime, those polled were asked "Within the past five years, have you yourself or another member of your household used a gun, even if it was not fired, for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere? Please do not include military service, police work, or work as a security guard."

Those who answered "Yes" were then asked whether their defensive use was against an animal or a person, asked to state how many defensive gun use incidents against persons had happened to members of their household in the last five years, and asked whether any of the incident or incidents had occurred in the last twelve months. Of those surveyed, 222 respondents reported DGUs within the past five years. All respondents reporting DGU, as well as 20% of those not reporting a DGU, were called back to validate their initial survey interviews. These raw data were then corrected for oversampling in the South and West regions, where gun ownership is highest; and oversampling for males, who are not only more likely to own guns, but also more likely to be victims of violent crime.

 

[M14 Shooter]

We have been having a discussion over several threads about the need of law abiding citizens to own standard capacity magazines...of course the gun grabbers want to limit magazines to 10 rounds...as if this would solve the problem...

But....I have come up with the solution...and it will be just as if not more effective than banning 30 round and 19 round magazines for law abiding citizens...

Let's pass a law that only allows criminals to have 10 round magazines...the answer was right there in front of us all along...no need to bother the law abiding citizens...you could give them a million round magazines and it wouldn't affect the crime rate....

However...limit criminals to 10 round magazines...now that solves all the problems with guns...

Comments?

If we had limited mags to 6 rounds to begin with, criminals wouldn't have higher capacity mags.

If the Chinese had not invented gunpowder, we'd not have guns.
However, in the real world....

 

[M14 Shooter]

Time to change the type and number of weapons and accessories available to gun cultists.

See, that is the beauty of my new law...gun cultists simply collect guns...they don't commit crimes...if we make a law that limits criminals to magazines that only have 10 rounds...problem solved...right?

Gun cultists definitely commit crimes - Michael Dunn, Curtis Reeves, little georgie zimmy, to name a few pistol toters. Won't even get started on mass shooters, NRA President Keene's son, domestic abusers, intimidators, Bundy Ranch Militiamen, etc.

~300,000,000 guns.
8855 gun murder (2012)
0.00295% of guns are involved in a murder.99.997 are not.
1 gun in 33800 are involved in a murder
Your argument fails.

 

[M14 Shooter]

You guys need to learn to walk out the door without a gun or two strapped to your leg.

Anti-gun loons such as yourself keep telling us gun-related crime is so bad we must further limit the rights of the law abiding; out the other side of their mouth, they tell us we have no need to carry a gun for self-defense.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Let's pass a law that allows criminals to only have 10 round magazines...

The limit to magazine size is about trying to at least reduce the body counts of mass shooters.

When you're the only one with a gun, 2x10rd mags = 1x20rd mag.

 

[Brain357]

Time to change the type and number of weapons and accessories available to gun cultists.

See, that is the beauty of my new law...gun cultists simply collect guns...they don't commit crimes...if we make a law that limits criminals to magazines that only have 10 rounds...problem solved...right?

Many gun cultists become criminals. Remember all the gone bad concealed carry people I have posted? I can't believe you have embarrassed yourself by making a new thread for your childish idea.

 

[Brain357]

Let's pass a law that allows criminals to only have 10 round magazines...

The limit to magazine size is about trying to at least reduce the body counts of mass shooters.

When you're the only one with a gun, 2x10rd mags = 1x20rd mag.

Unless people stop shooter like they did at Giffords shooting. Reloading also gives people a chance to
Run away.

 

[2aguy]

The giffords shooting was pure luck...remember, the guy at Sandy Hook reloaded as well...and that didn't stop him...the giffords shooter got too close to his victims before he started to shoot...that is why the Santa Barbara shooter wasn't tackled...he was in a car...

You really want to put your life on the line with the bet that someone can have the intestinal fortitude to charge a gunman as he reloads his weapon...you want to bet your life on someone doing that...really?

 

[AtticusF]

The giffords shooting was pure luck...remember, the guy at Sandy Hook reloaded as well...and that didn't stop him...the giffords shooter got too close to his victims before he started to shoot...that is why the Santa Barbara shooter wasn't tackled...he was in a car...

You really want to put your life on the line with the bet that someone can have the intestinal fortitude to charge a gunman as he reloads his weapon...you want to bet your life on someone doing that...really?

Believe it or not, many people are braver than gun loving Yahoos who practice in front of a mirror

 

[Brain357]

The giffords shooting was pure luck...remember, the guy at Sandy Hook reloaded as well...and that didn't stop him...the giffords shooter got too close to his victims before he started to shoot...that is why the Santa Barbara shooter wasn't tackled...he was in a car...

You really want to put your life on the line with the bet that someone can have the intestinal fortitude to charge a gunman as he reloads his weapon...you want to bet your life on someone doing that...really?

How many people have had a chance to run away while the shooter reloads? Why do you want to make it as easy as possible for the shooter?

 

[Brain357]

Here are some actual facts about Dr. Kleck's methods...

Myth 3 - 2.5 million defensive gun uses each year can t be accurate Buckeye Firearms Association

The data for the Kleck study were collected using an anonymous nationwide random-digit-dialed telephone survey of 4,977 adults conducted from February through April of 1993 by Research Network, a telephone polling company located in Tallahassee, FL. After a few general questions about problems in their community and crime, those polled were asked "Within the past five years, have you yourself or another member of your household used a gun, even if it was not fired, for self-protection or for the protection of property at home, work, or elsewhere? Please do not include military service, police work, or work as a security guard."

Those who answered "Yes" were then asked whether their defensive use was against an animal or a person, asked to state how many defensive gun use incidents against persons had happened to members of their household in the last five years, and asked whether any of the incident or incidents had occurred in the last twelve months. Of those surveyed, 222 respondents reported DGUs within the past five years. All respondents reporting DGU, as well as 20% of those not reporting a DGU, were called back to validate their initial survey interviews. These raw data were then corrected for oversampling in the South and West regions, where gun ownership is highest; and oversampling for males, who are not only more likely to own guns, but also more likely to be victims of violent crime.

All those defenses and how many criminals are shot and killed? The body count does not support the ridiculous numbers. Nor does the news. They are a myth.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The giffords shooting was pure luck...

The shooter dropped his loaded mag on the ground, allowing someone to act.
To the anti-gun loons, this is exactly the same thing as a pause to reload.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The giffords shooting was pure luck...remember, the guy at Sandy Hook reloaded as well...and that didn't stop him...the giffords shooter got too close to his victims before he started to shoot...that is why the Santa Barbara shooter wasn't tackled...he was in a car...

You really want to put your life on the line with the bet that someone can have the intestinal fortitude to charge a gunman as he reloads his weapon...you want to bet your life on someone doing that...really?

Believe it or not, many people are braver than gun loving Yahoos who practice in front of a mirror

Oh look - an anti-gun loon arguing from emotion, ignorance and/or dishonesty.
:doh:

 

[Brain357]

The giffords shooting was pure luck...

The shooter dropped his loaded mag on the ground, allowing someone to act.
To the anti-gun loons, this is exactly the same thing as a pause to reload.

It is what can happen to any mass shooter. And the more times he has to reload the more likely to happen.