Some of the reasons why Americans of all political backgrounds oppose funding and supporting Ukraine.

[Richard-H]

Thank you that is an informative response. But I should tell you something I’m neutral in the war I’m not pro Russia nor pro Ukraine.

I’ve responded many times to this issue you probably see my points. What I can add is that when we invaded iraq which I also disagree with …but I don’t think that president Busj should be tried for war crimes, but when we did that Russia did not supply our enemy Iraq with any weapons or billions of dollars like we are supplying in Ukraine today.

Well warfare is violent isn’t it. Ukrainian government has been fighting it in Ukraine going back to 2014 allegedly killing up to 15,000 Ukrainians. So you talk about Putin not caring about children I don’t think that’s the case. I think that George W. Bush cared about children I think that Putin is when I look at history and you probably understand this there’s warfare all throughout history all over the world. This war in Ukraine was not the only war of the 20th century not even close. Look at Syria

Look at Yemen, look at Ethiopia, Israel Palestine you could even say look at Georgia when Russia invaded Georgia in a three day war whatever it was. There’s all sorts of issues going on in Africa ….. so for the United States to concentrate on Ukraine for what seems to be money and resources but our leaders keep saying it’s about democracy and morals so that’s the problem. If it was about democracy and morals we will be giving our money and military equipment to all sorts of people around the world but we’re not …With all of those other situations we could’ve provided $100 billion … I think we could’ve pursued neutrality in that situation as opposed to supporting Ukraine. I hope now Biden Or maybe President Trump in 2024 can bring Ukraine and Russia to the negotiating table.

I don’t think that Putin wants to reestablish the Russian empire or the Soviet union and I don’t think Russians want that. Putin is not Russia it takes a country to support a leader same with George W. Bush…. Ukraine is right on the border of Russia. Germany is not nor Poland I believe. And the thing is with Belarus they’ve already been used as a launching pad for Russia kind of like how United States use Saudi Arabia as a launching pad for the first gulf war. So I just don’t believe that Russia wants to go after another country other than Ukraine.

I certainly agree with you that it’s a very bad war so are a lot of things around the world including starving children in Africa the people living in the Gaza Strip in an open air prison as many say. And I don’t hate Israel but I am recognizing that there is a situation in Israel Palestine and there’s all sorts of people around the world and most definitely those in Palestine saying hey we need help. Maybe Donald Trump can bring together Israel and Palestine as one state in 2024 he did give us the Abraham accords which was excellent.

I'm if anything Pro-Russian generally. I'm married to a Russian and have several Russian friends. On the other hand, what few Ukrainians I've met, I haven't liked - they've struck me a thugs.

However, in this case Russia has launched an outright invasion, the likes of which we haven't seen in Europe since Hitler.

Most wars are complicated. How they start, what the causes are and who is right and who is wrong is very complicated. Few are outright unwarranted total invasions. Few include outright annexation of areas that there is no valid claim to.

This is an outright invasion. The Russians did not have to do it. Russia was not being threatened by Ukraine in any way. The problems in Ukraine could have been solved without a total invasion. The Russians could have acted in an incremental fashion - just reinforcing the separatist strongholds in the Donbas. That would have been justified.

Putin has already made it clear that he wants to reestablish the Russian Empire - there's no question about it. Putin has the overwhelming support of the Russian people. Putin has justified NATO's existence in Eastern Europe. He's miscalculated in every way. He's united NATO as never before. He's continuing a war that he really can not win. This can not end well for Russia, and Ukraine will not recover for at least 50 years. It's a disaster for everyone (except Military Industrialists).

 

[CowboyTed]

I'm if anything Pro-Russian generally. I'm married to a Russian and have several Russian friends. On the other hand, what few Ukrainians I've met, I haven't liked - they've struck me a thugs.

However, in this case Russia has launched an outright invasion, the likes of which we haven't seen in Europe since Hitler.

Most wars are complicated. How they start, what the causes are and who is right and who is wrong is very complicated. Few are outright unwarranted total invasions. Few include outright annexation of areas that there is no valid claim to.

This is an outright invasion. The Russians did not have to do it. Russia was not being threatened by Ukraine in any way. The problems in Ukraine could have been solved without a total invasion. The Russians could have acted in an incremental fashion - just reinforcing the separatist strongholds in the Donbas. That would have been justified.

Putin has already made it clear that he wants to reestablish the Russian Empire - there's no question about it. Putin has the overwhelming support of the Russian people. Putin has justified NATO's existence in Eastern Europe. He's miscalculated in every way. He's united NATO as never before. He's continuing a war that he really can not win. This can not end well for Russia, and Ukraine will not recover for at least 50 years. It's a disaster for everyone (except Military Industrialists).

The Donbas is 59% Ukrainians and less than 39% Russian...

Всеукраїнський перепис населення 2001 | English version | Results | General results of the census | National composition of population:

web.archive.org

In a fair vote they would have never got it...

Crimea is different... The USSR ethnic cleansed the region going over last 150 years. Forcefully moving the Tartars off there land and replacing them with Russians... This is one of the worst war crime that anyone could commit. Ukraine were reversing that by giving up their land and bringing back the Tartars and Russia wanted it stopped... They didn't want these people going back to there home... This is disgraceful, this is possibly the worst thing you can do... The Crimea Tartars a people with no nation, Russia want them and there culture wiped from this earth..

 

[AntonToo]

The Russians could have acted in an incremental fashion - just reinforcing the separatist strongholds in the Donbas.

Agree with most you've said except this.

Separatism in Eastern Ukraine is not some sort of internal movement, it is an extension of Kremlin's take over of Ukraine that began in 2014 and is no less hamfisted than annexation of Crimea. Movement was headed by Russians riding on Russian DoD millitary hardware, Kremlim just skipped on officiating these little-green-men operations.

 

[FranklinRoosevelt_FTW]

The Donbas is 59% Ukrainians and less than 39% Russian...

Всеукраїнський перепис населення 2001 | English version | Results | General results of the census | National composition of population:

web.archive.org

In a fair vote they would have never got it...

Crimea is different... The USSR ethnic cleansed the region going over last 150 years. Forcefully moving the Tartars off there land and replacing them with Russians... This is one of the worst war crime that anyone could commit. Ukraine were reversing that by giving up their land and bringing back the Tartars and Russia wanted it stopped... They didn't want these people going back to there home... This is disgraceful, this is possibly the worst thing you can do... The Crimea Tartars a people with no nation, Russia want them and there culture wiped from this earth..

View attachment 761867

I cannot agree with that …you’re saying “150 years” and I’m sure there’s a counter to what you’re saying. The United States has been accused of cleansing Indians and that is also not accurate at all. Talking like that is a way to make us feel bad …. it doesn’t help anybody it’s not historically accurate.

Russia does not want to ethnically cleanse anyone neither has the United States ever.

The USSR was not around for 150 years ….it existed for perhaps 70 years by the way.

Part of history we can understand that lands change hand overtime ….there are competitions and arguments among people.

 

[FranklinRoosevelt_FTW]

Russia’s actually rescued a number of children with no parents in Ukraine and they’re helping them out. Americans have done the same thing in Iraq.

 

[FranklinRoosevelt_FTW]

Some of the Ukrainian politicians are absolute whack jobs. One of them was actually criticized by the Ukrainian people for claiming that the Russian soldiers are raping babies. That’s what we’re dealing with and then there’s also been Ukrainian politicians who have been assassinated by the Ukrainian government reportedly.

 

[AntonToo]

I cannot agree with that …you’re saying “150 years” and I’m sure there’s a counter to what you’re saying. The United States has been accused of cleansing Indians and that is also not accurate at all. Talking like that is a way to make us feel bad …. it doesn’t help anybody it’s not historically accurate.

Russia does not want to ethnically cleanse anyone neither has the United States ever.

The USSR was not around for 150 years ….it existed for perhaps 70 years by the way.

Part of history we can understand that lands change hand overtime ….there are competitions and arguments among people.

There was no argument where sovereign Ukranian borders are untill Putin decided to annex it's lands.

Putin in 2008: 'Crimea is not disputed territory' and is part of Ukraine

www.businessinsider.com

 

[Whodatsaywhodat.]

Do you know what’s sad about this. Where is that money actually going. Do we think that the deserving people , the hard-working people in Ukraine are getting their pension money ? or is it going to Ukrainian oligarchs?

And then 10% for the big guy.

 

[AntonToo]

Some of the Ukrainian politicians are absolute whack jobs.

WTF? Which country doesn't have some whack jobs?

Does Russia have a right to invade Alaska because America has some whack job politicians?

Your arguments are laughable.

 

[FranklinRoosevelt_FTW]

I'm an American, originally from Russia.

I'm not at all against Russia. I am FOR Russia.

Free, economically integrated, prosperous, clean governing, peaceful Russia. All the things that are not possible under Russia's current regime.

Putin losing this bloody invasion would be the best thing that could happen to Russia since dissolution of USSR and Perestroyka. And not only Russia, this would be profound message to all the two bit imperialist land grabbers where that road leads.

Well even when America invaded Iraq we had some left-wing Americans who were adamantly against America. Now I disagreed with the invasion but not so much adamantly sold where I would go after the US military members are similar.

OK I have met two Russian women here in America one in Las Vegas one in Buffalo. Very beautiful women and they were both patriots and like you they’re from Russia and they’re saying that there’s a bunch of propaganda against Russia. The woman a from Buffalo was telling me that Russia is the best country in the world and that the economy there is incredible and she’s been all over the world.

 

[Whodatsaywhodat.]

Only 5 percent of Republicans support Russia over Ukraine, but the MAGA wing of the GOP has continually sided with Putin and against Ukraine.

Now, they have decided that they should disparage Ukraine and Volodymyr Zelenskyy despite Russia’s invasion. Some of them have walked back their comments once they saw Putin’s war machine target innocent people, but many still see Russia as an ally.

We’ve collected their quotes below to make sure they can never forget where they stood.

Meet the pro-Putin Republicans and conservatives - Republican Accountability

Only 5 percent of Republicans support Russia over Ukraine, but the MAGA wing of the GOP has continually sided with Putin and against Ukraine. Current and former elected officials, candidates for office, and media figures who are popular with the MAGA base have a history of pro-Russia comments...

accountability.gop

“Remember that Zelenskyy is a thug. Remember that the Ukrainian government is incredibly corrupt and it is incredibly evil and has been pushing woke ideologies.”

Oh look another kook falling for the Trump Russian collusion lie... try a new phony angle you lying sap sucker.

 

[AntonToo]

Ukrainian politicians who have been assassinated by the Ukrainian government reportedly.

....and how does that compare to all of Putin's serious opposition dead, jailed or in exile?

How does that compare to Russia never once holding an election that resulted in change of government and peaceful transfer of power?

You are just serving up one sided Russian propaganda here.

 

[g5000]

Where's the vote of congress for war, asshole?

We are not at war, dipshit.

Congress has voted to support Ukraine. Have your propagandists not told you this?!?!

 

[g5000]

We should have a national referendum on supporting Ukraine. Let’s just see what the American people have to say. Because some of the polls are showing less and less Americans are supporting this thing.


The biggest of all are these Americans who are on a moral high horse like they think that this war and Ukraine is the only war in the world is the only thing in the world where injustice is going on. Again we can all say to them what about the starving children in Africa what about the wars in Yemen. What about the people of Palestine, the country Palestine. And also yes the people in eastern Palestine, Ohio. What about those people should we give those people money. If we’re giving Ukraine money what about those people?

The children in Africa are starving because Putin is blocking the food provided by Ukraine.

This is one of many reasons we need to support Ukraine. We cannot have a mass murdering KGB thug controlling a significant portion of the world's food supply.

Turn off whatever Putin-friendly propagandists who are lying to you.

In Africa, Putin’s War on Ukraine Drives Food, Fuel and Finance Crises

Vladimir Putin’s unprovoked war on Ukraine has unleashed a wave of destruction and atrocities against its brave people. But the suffering and instability are not contained to Europe. Indeed, a continent away, Putin’s war has unleashed a “three-headed hydra” of food, energy and finance shortages...

www.usip.org

 

[g5000]

There are people who are opposed to funding Ukraine for a variety of reasons.

-Russians are not evil

Putin is indisputably evil. And his troops who are raping kids are evil. And you are evil for being a Putin apologist.

 

[AntonToo]

Well even when America invaded Iraq we had some left-wing Americans who were adamantly against America. Now I disagreed with the invasion but not so much adamantly sold where I would go after the US military members are similar.

OK I have met two Russian women here in America one in Las Vegas one in Buffalo. Very beautiful women and they were both patriots and like you they’re from Russia and they’re saying that there’s a bunch of propaganda against Russia. The woman a from Buffalo was telling me that Russia is the best country in the world and that the economy there is incredible and she’s been all over the world.

They told you BS. It's as simple as that.

If you watch Russian TV you are watching state propaganda. Thats probably what these 50+ women watch and thats the view point they shared with you.

 

[g5000]

Considering the money laundering that has gone on in Ukraine in the past, it isn’t unreasonable to think that a lot of it wound up in the pockets of Zelensky, Biden, Pelosi, etc...

The money laundering was done by Trump's campaign manager Paul Manafort who worked for the Russian puppet in Ukraine.

And Trump pardoned him.

And you had no problem with that. So go clutch your filthy pearls somewhere else.

 

[sealybobo]

Oh look another kook falling for the Trump Russian collusion lie... try a new phony angle you lying sap sucker.

You guys have been brainwashed by Alex Jones and Qanon. Now I guess they have split. Which side are you on?



Very interesting how they've been lying to you as far back as when they first started lying about John Kerry not being a war hero. Then Obama wasn't born in America. Now the two sides have split. Alex Jones says Qanon is a bunch of deep staters trying to make him look bad.

Alex Jones Slams QAnon, Says 'Q Is the Worst People on Earth'​

Alex Jones Slams QAnon, Says 'Q Is the Worst People on Earth'

Alex Jones has peddled numerous conspiracy theories on his Infowars show, including that the Sandy Hook shooting was staged.

www.newsweek.com

 

[g5000]

Ukraine isn't a democracy, dope.....Tenpercentskyy has outlawed opposition parties, outlawed and jailed press that disagrees with him, and even banned the Ukrainian Orthodox church.

Ukraine is being run by a fascist dictator.

No one matches the corruption of Russia, useful idiot.

Did someone say "outlawed and jailed press"?

Navalny Is The Latest In A Grim Line Of Putin Opponents Believed To Have Been Poisoned

Poison has allegedly been a favored weapon by Russian intelligence since before the Cold War.

www.forbes.com

Navalny, suspected of being poisoned Thursday during a flight to Moscow from Siberia, is expected to be transported Saturday to a hospital in Germany, a move which Russian doctors originally denied, claiming his condition was “too unstable,” but reversed after a German medical team arrived at the hospital and were permitted to examine Navalny.

Pyotr Verzilov, a Russian opposition activist, said he went through the same symptoms in 2018, including being put on a ventilator and eventually being flown to a German hospital for treatment, according to the New York Times.

Anna Politkovskaya, an investigative journalist and fierce critic of the Russian government, became seriously ill after a suspected poisoning in 2004 during a domestic Russian flight, and was gunned down two years later.

The same week Politkovskaya was poisoned, Roman Tsepov, who was a bodyguard for President Vladimir Putin in the 1990s before he came to power, became violently ill and died a few days after having a cup of tea at a local Russian security service office—his autopsy revealed radioactive material in his body.

Aleksandr V. Litvinenko, a rogue Russian intelligence officer, died after drinking tea laced with a lethal radioactive isotope, polonium 210, just a month after Politkovskaya’s murder—a 2016 British investigation concluded his death could have been approved by Putin himself.

Opposition leader Vladimir Kara-Murza was poisoned in 2015, one month after calling for the U.S. to impose harsher sanctions on Russia during a series of public meetings on Capitol Hill—Kara-Murza said he was poisoned again in 2017 as he toured Russia showcasing a documentary about murdered Putin critic Boris Nemtsov.

Former Russian spy Sergei Skripal in 2018 and his daughter were poisoned by two Russian intelligence operatives with a toxic nerve agent applied to their door handle in Salisbury, England—they recovered but the attack led the U.K. and its allies to expel 150 Russian diplomats and impose crushing sanctions on the Kremlin.





Did someone say fascist?

Worse Than Nazis – PMC Wagner’s Role in Ukraine​

Is it possible to surpass the brutality of Nazi war criminals – it seems the Private Military Company Wagner is out to do just that.

Even the name is no coincidence – Richard Wagner was Hitler’s favorite composer. Word has it that the head of the Wagner group, Dmitry Utkin, is a fan of the Third Reich, and, therefore, gave the group this name.

The Wagner PMC mercenaries have been involved in a long list of crimes during the full-scale invasion of Ukraine – atrocities in Bucha; the recent attack on Azov war prisoners in the Olenivka correctional colony. Even the militant that castrated a Ukrainian prisoner with a clerical knife in the latest video could also be a member of the Wagner group.

PMC Wagner is a Russian private military organization that, according to journalistic investigations, is financed through Yevgeny Prigozhin – a member of Putin’s “inner circle”. PMC Wagner took part in military operations in Ukraine in 2014, in Syria, Lybia, and in African countries.

Who Are The Neo-Nazis Fighting For Russia In Ukraine?​

The video, published in December 2020, showed two nattily dressed Russian men -- waistcoats, pocket squares, silk ties – sipping American whiskey in brandy snifters and discussing killing Ukrainians.

"I'm a Nazi. I’m a Nazi,” said one of the men, Aleksei Milchakov, who was the main focus of the video published on a Russian nationalist YouTube channel. “I'm not going to go deep and say, I’m a nationalist, a patriot, an imperialist, and so forth. I’ll say it outright: I’m a Nazi.”

“You have to understand that when you kill a person, you feel the excitement of the hunt. If you’ve never been hunting, you should try it. It’s interesting,” he said.

[snip]

Along with members of the Russian Imperial Movement, a white supremacist group that was designated a "global terrorist" organization by the United States two years ago, Rusich is one of several right-wing groups that are actively fighting in Ukraine, in conjunction with Russia’s regular armed forces or allied separatist units.

According to a confidential report by Germany’s Federal Intelligence Service, which was obtained by Der Spiegel and excerpted on May 22, numerous Russian right-wing extremists and neo-Nazis are fighting in Ukraine.

German analysts wrote that the fact that Russian military and political leaders have welcomed neo-Nazi groups undermines the claim by Putin and his government that one of the principal motives behind the invasion is the desire to “de-Nazify” Ukraine, Spiegel said.

Signs of Neo-Nazi Ideology Amongst Russian Mercenaries​

Instances of far-right leanings among some members of the armed forces is not unheard of in many other parts of the world, including Europe and North America. This is an increasingly common problem in Russia as well. Even more, the type of far-right ideology expressed in Russian mercenaries is showing homage to Nazi ideology.

This type of ideology espoused by Russian mercenaries remains anathema in a country where millions died fighting Nazis during World War II. The slogan “to fight fascism” was one of the rallying points inviting Russian volunteers to fight in Donbas against “Ukrainian Fascists”. Russian President Putin has called Ukraine a fascist country numerous times, yet the numerous mercenaries who went to fight in Donbas, Syria and Libya are neo-nazis themselves. This article analyses some of the available open source evidence, shedding light on Russian mercenaries’ extreme ideology.

Dmitry Utkin (Wagner)​

In 2016, Utkin was invited at a Hero of the Fatherland reception in the Kremlin, where he was photographed wearing his medals. This event was attended by more than 300 soldiers and civilians, who have “demonstrated particular courage and heroism” and were personally thanked for their service by Putin himself. At the event he was awarded with the Order for Courage, allegedly for his services in Ukraine.

]

A photo recently surfaced of Utkin with Nazi tattoos, giving additional proof of his ideological leanings. For those who been following Wagner group for some time this photos was not surprising, as his and a lot of Wagner fighters’ ideological inclinations were already known. The photo originally surfaced on Russian VK accounts and a Telegram group affiliated with the mercenaries, but received interest by media outlets just recently.


Taking a closer look at the photos, Nazi collar tabs with Waffen SS bolts on the left and military rank on the right can be identified. Lower on the chest, a Reichsadler Eagle, can be seen. All three of these tattoos are symbols found Waffen-SS military uniforms, which was the military branch of the Nazi Party’s SS organization.

Give us a big kiss, you adorable Nazi, you!





Here are the REAL Nazis in the house:

 

[iamwhatiseem]

Team Putin chimes in

So it is only black and white with you?
Really?
And the whole situation is a helluva lot more complex than just 100% this or 100% that.
There are two problem makers here, not just one.
You take Sweden. Sweden has been a neutral country since 1834. I would expect that you know why that is important. I forget the percentages, but I think it is something like 80% of the population of Russia lives along the Swedish border. So Sweden being a buffer zone between one side from the other has been HUGELY beneficial for the whole world.
Ukraine should be neutral. Neutrality deals have prevented many wars over the course of humanity.
Russia was never going to accept a condition of Ukraine being a NATO nation.
And the value of Ukraine being a NATO nation, other than ego, is not worth the extreme high cost of making that happen. And that should be VERY obvious now.
But that is not what happened is it?
American interest in Ukraine kept escalating and escalating and enriching some high class folks. Gee, I sure know one of them don't you?
That was playing with fire. Actions have consequences.
Now... obviously Russia has some faults here too. They were also creating conflict. And both sides kept goading the other. What should have happened was making Ukraine a neutral nation. That it could cooperate and take any non military cooperation it wanted from either side as long as it wasn't military. And both sides agree to never take up arms against Ukraine, and Ukraine agree to never accept any military assistance from either side.