Sweet Victory For Earth Is The Destruction Of Religion.

[Luddly Neddite]

Justice is merely accountability before the law. God is a just God and has given us commandments which we are to follow.

everyone breaks those laws and hence we are under the arm of justice unless we accept the gift of mercy given to us. Christ suffered the consequence for our actions ao that mercy could be extended.

without an atonement no mercy would be possible. Because God has attached a punishment to the law and is perfectly honest and just. He would have to give us the punishment we deserve if someone didn't take it for us.

but Christ did so justice could be satisfied and mercy extended to the penitent.

but if we reject the mercy given and refuse to repent and exercise faith in Christ and His atoning sacrifice how can justice be avoided? Because we are guilty. Anyone who is honest knows that.

you think that God should be unjust because you don't want to accept the gift given. That's not how life works.

This is why trying to converse with "christians" is so pointless. They just go into their by rote and very nonsensical harangue.

I see logic is lost on you. How does someone who is perfectly honest and just give mercy to someone without a someone taking the punishment as a proxy?

You mean like a royal whipping boy?

Ludicrous and just memorization without depth or thought.

But hey, I said I wouldn't come to the religion forum and I shouldn't have. I read some of the nasty posts from you phony christians and let it annoy me. I also don't much want to get banned, if you get my drift.

My mistake and please do carry on with your memorized silliness.

 

[Bonita Louise]

God has shown Himself again

Nameste.. And again and again..with each awakening. Trust GOD/ONE's process for each of us. Some are not capable or do not recognize the process,a closed heart is blind to such things, non the less it is at work in their existence. Bless them with clear light and leave them to their path and process.

 

[emilynghiem]

Justice is merely accountability before the law. God is a just God and has given us commandments which we are to follow.

everyone breaks those laws and hence we are under the arm of justice unless we accept the gift of mercy given to us. Christ suffered the consequence for our actions ao that mercy could be extended.

without an atonement no mercy would be possible. Because God has attached a punishment to the law and is perfectly honest and just. He would have to give us the punishment we deserve if someone didn't take it for us.

but Christ did so justice could be satisfied and mercy extended to the penitent.

but if we reject the mercy given and refuse to repent and exercise faith in Christ and His atoning sacrifice how can justice be avoided? Because we are guilty. Anyone who is honest knows that.

you think that God should be unjust because you don't want to accept the gift given. That's not how life works.

Hi Avatar
1. What did you mean you think God should be unjust? Most ppl protest because they perceived injustice and ask why is this being forgiven and justified without acknowledging and correcting it.

I agree the problem is people want OTHERs to repent first before they are forgiven.

So what you describe as the
Problem mirrors what Luddly and others see wrong with hypocrite Christians -- the lack of repentance humility and forgiveness that Christ brings with the Holy Spirit of comfort and healing grace.

2. So i agree with what you say but it goes both ways. Christians also need to show repentance and forgiveness to demonstrate and teach these things by example.

How do we make this more clear that we do live by the same and we practice real charity mercy forgiveness for all and trust in God to establish truth and justice and dont try to outguess or judge others any harder than we push ourselves as equals. How do we make it clear it is mutual.

 

[emilynghiem]

Everyone I know wants the truth, wants justice wants peace.

Interesting. Everyone I know want their beliefs validated.

Accepting the truth is difficult for Monkeys, especially when doing so contradicts the status quo.

Agree.

And they're willing to change the truth in order to serve their agenda.

This board is an ongoing example of that. Pseudo-christians preaching some of the most vicious hate I've ever read, while saying they believe in and follow the teachings of Jesus.

They're either lying or delusional.

Dear Luddly Neddite
When I questioned GISMYS on this point Jeremiah explained this this type preaching saved them from worse ills. IrishRam also helped me understand that both of those two need that for themselves, or they and other ppl who need it would be more lost. I objected to this being pushed in public and on the wrong ppl, and should be kept to just that audience, and offered to set up a rebuke between them and ppl who need this strong armed approach. They honestly cannot find each other except by preaching in public, chasing others away who dont need this, and just collecting fans who do.

I hate it too, it sends the wrong msg. But some ppl especially the hardheaded hardhearted Christians need to kick each other in the head. They need to have it out. They need to find each other. And these public proselytizing is like moose mating calls so bulls can challenge and butt heads with other bulls. I dont agree, dont get it or like it either, but nature has its way of organizing the wolves in packs and fight for dominance in the pecking order. Whatever!

Luddly Neddite as for Avatar, we have a better chance to talk things out rationally. IrishRam is also reasonable and not bullheaded.

Let the bulls fight it out with other bulls. Let's not allow that.bullcrap going on to interfere with deeper discussion and understanding that is possible with those like IrishRam and Avatar who are willing to talk it out and explain more specifically what we mean and not just blindly preaching scripture without explanation.

I can help interpret and translate into secular terms even atheists can understand as naturrally occurring. I am a secular gentile and had to struggle like hell and heaven combined to understand the meaning of Jesus and the Bible in perfectly natural secular terms. If I can come to understanding then anyone can, because I am harder on myself, more stubborn and more confused than anyone with all the BS I cannot stand and refuse to enable.

So that's why I know you are just as convicted by conscience to stop the same injustice I hate.

If I can forgive resolve and correct the problems I hate so much with how Christianity is mistaught and misconstrued, anyone can.

I trust you and Avatar to talk this out because you both love justice and want any wrongs corrected.

We are moved by the same spirit of justice and truth, we are on the same side but coming from different angles all seeking to right the wrongs. That's why we don't see the same things, it takes all of us checking from all directions to catch all errors. Let's push together, we can do more to correct false teachings by working as a team where our diversity becomes a strength.

Thanks Luddly your compassion for justice is admirable and I totally support you in succeeding.

We just need to agree what goals to go for, and we can meet those targets. Together like an Olympic team where every member adds to the victories.

 

[Avatar4321]

Justice is merely accountability before the law. God is a just God and has given us commandments which we are to follow.

everyone breaks those laws and hence we are under the arm of justice unless we accept the gift of mercy given to us. Christ suffered the consequence for our actions ao that mercy could be extended.

without an atonement no mercy would be possible. Because God has attached a punishment to the law and is perfectly honest and just. He would have to give us the punishment we deserve if someone didn't take it for us.

but Christ did so justice could be satisfied and mercy extended to the penitent.

but if we reject the mercy given and refuse to repent and exercise faith in Christ and His atoning sacrifice how can justice be avoided? Because we are guilty. Anyone who is honest knows that.

you think that God should be unjust because you don't want to accept the gift given. That's not how life works.

This is why trying to converse with "christians" is so pointless. They just go into their by rote and very nonsensical harangue.

I see logic is lost on you. How does someone who is perfectly honest and just give mercy to someone without a someone taking the punishment as a proxy?

You mean like a royal whipping boy?

Ludicrous and just memorization without depth or thought.

But hey, I said I wouldn't come to the religion forum and I shouldn't have. I read some of the nasty posts from you phony christians and let it annoy me. I also don't much want to get banned, if you get my drift.

My mistake and please do carry on with your memorized silliness.

I'll note your inability to answer the question. No one is forcing you to be here.

 

[Avatar4321]

People say they want justice except when it comes to themselves. Then they want God to be unjust. And just ignore the law.

God has provided justice for those who deserve justice and mercy for the penitent without being unjust.

 

[emilynghiem]

In 2014, when you hear "peace treaty" what comes to your mind?

That you're nuts?

Dear TAZ what is nuts about wanting peace and justice?
Everyone I know wants the truth, wants justice wants peace.

So it makes sense to me the human conscience will keep trying for these things
until we succeed. If it fails, we'll try again and again.

Nobody wants to suffer. Nobody wants someone else having political control over us.

So by "trial and error" the human conscience is driven to establish justice by truth so there is peace.

We aren't satisfied with things we feel are false, unjust or imposed on us where we are distressed and distraught!

Why do you think you are arguing here?
You feel there is false or fraud ideas being pushed
and you DON'T agree, so you seek truth and justice in order to have peace of mind.

So as long as all of us keep pushing until we agree what is truth, and find peace,
then we try, try again. We'll eventually reach some kind of resolution or we will go push someplace else and try that!

BTW IrishRam and Avatar are some of the most reasonable people
on here who will try to explain and work with you.

I will try to help also. It's mostly a communication gap because
nontheists secular gentiles don't speak all this religious symbolism garbage.

Jesus is a symbol of JUSTICE coming in a process of humanity making peace.

That's what the Bible means: moving away from Retributive Justice and war in the world by material greed
which spells death and destruction, and moving toward Restorative Justice and healing relations for peace,
including corrections and restitution in the real world. So a very real establishment of truth and peace worldwide.

That's what it is trying to spell out: the history and future of humanity in SYMBOLS.
but this process affects all of us, in our real lives, even our personal relations.
collectively that means changing world war into world peace. one person, one relationship at a time,
by forgiving and correcting each problem so we resolve all our issues and work things out peaceably.

Just to let you know that your posts are too long, therefore I don't read them. No hot air please.

Dear TAZ
Thanks for your honest reply.
The shortest way to explain what is meant
is to witness spiritual healing by forgiveness. This speaks for itself and requires no words to watch and see it works.

The reason the Bible is symbolic is to
save words. If you want the entire history if humanity, past and future, summarized,
there it is.

If you don't get the mysterious symbols,
if you want it spelled out, you get a lot more words and complicated applications to real life.

If you don't want that,
I'd look into spiritual healing.
Once you get how forgiveness changes lives
you don't need preaching or words.

That's the shortest cut I can give you.
Whatever works best for you,
you will be blessed either way.
Whatever you ask you receive.
Keep asking and the right answers will come.

Thanks for your honesty which will always be rewarded. Love and peace, Happy Thanksgiving. Yours truly, Emily

 

[David Jeffrey Spetch]

lol, I'm still on page 12. I'm just breezing my way through the homosexual activist rhetoric on my other two threads in the politics forum. When I am done, rest assured I'll be back to breeze through this pile. and remember:

For those of you tearing up throughout the brief duration of my momentary laps in a stitch of absence, don't cry because you are not able to, with so much as a shred of validity, contest the facts which reveal that the foundation of every religion is based upon lies, no other person on the planet is capable because what I share are the facts that have already so very cleanly proven that the foundation of every religion is based upon lies as clearly demonstrated within the video beginning this very thread. Embrace it, for what is the sense in believing in anything if when you are presented with the facts that verify or falsify your belief, you are just going to ignore it and pretend the facts are what doesn't exist. It really is a warped sense of reality that the religious suffer. I'm here for you! One life is worth more than every religion that ever existed.

love

David Jeffrey Spetch
Ps. Be good, be strong!

 

[Taz]

In 2014, when you hear "peace treaty" what comes to your mind?

That you're nuts?

Dear TAZ what is nuts about wanting peace and justice?
Everyone I know wants the truth, wants justice wants peace.

So it makes sense to me the human conscience will keep trying for these things
until we succeed. If it fails, we'll try again and again.

Nobody wants to suffer. Nobody wants someone else having political control over us.

So by "trial and error" the human conscience is driven to establish justice by truth so there is peace.

We aren't satisfied with things we feel are false, unjust or imposed on us where we are distressed and distraught!

Why do you think you are arguing here?
You feel there is false or fraud ideas being pushed
and you DON'T agree, so you seek truth and justice in order to have peace of mind.

So as long as all of us keep pushing until we agree what is truth, and find peace,
then we try, try again. We'll eventually reach some kind of resolution or we will go push someplace else and try that!

BTW IrishRam and Avatar are some of the most reasonable people
on here who will try to explain and work with you.

I will try to help also. It's mostly a communication gap because
nontheists secular gentiles don't speak all this religious symbolism garbage.

Jesus is a symbol of JUSTICE coming in a process of humanity making peace.

That's what the Bible means: moving away from Retributive Justice and war in the world by material greed
which spells death and destruction, and moving toward Restorative Justice and healing relations for peace,
including corrections and restitution in the real world. So a very real establishment of truth and peace worldwide.

That's what it is trying to spell out: the history and future of humanity in SYMBOLS.
but this process affects all of us, in our real lives, even our personal relations.
collectively that means changing world war into world peace. one person, one relationship at a time,
by forgiving and correcting each problem so we resolve all our issues and work things out peaceably.

Just to let you know that your posts are too long, therefore I don't read them. No hot air please.

Dear TAZ
Thanks for your honest reply.
The shortest way to explain what is meant
is to witness spiritual healing by forgiveness. This speaks for itself and requires no words to watch and see it works.

The reason the Bible is symbolic is to
save words. If you want the entire history if humanity, past and future, summarized,
there it is.

If you don't get the mysterious symbols,
if you want it spelled out, you get a lot more words and complicated applications to real life.

If you don't want that,
I'd look into spiritual healing.
Once you get how forgiveness changes lives
you don't need preaching or words.

That's the shortest cut I can give you.
Whatever works best for you,
you will be blessed either way.
Whatever you ask you receive.
Keep asking and the right answers will come.

Thanks for your honesty which will always be rewarded. Love and peace, Happy Thanksgiving. Yours truly, Emily

So basically you're saying that the stories in the bible aren't true. Got it.

 

[Taz]

People say they want justice except when it comes to themselves. Then they want God to be unjust. And just ignore the law.

God has provided justice for those who deserve justice and mercy for the penitent without being unjust.

If god made us, why does he have to make laws afterwards. He fuck something up in the design? And any laws that come from a man-written book(s) can't be from god.

 

[westwall]

Justice is merely accountability before the law. God is a just God and has given us commandments which we are to follow.

everyone breaks those laws and hence we are under the arm of justice unless we accept the gift of mercy given to us. Christ suffered the consequence for our actions ao that mercy could be extended.

without an atonement no mercy would be possible. Because God has attached a punishment to the law and is perfectly honest and just. He would have to give us the punishment we deserve if someone didn't take it for us.

but Christ did so justice could be satisfied and mercy extended to the penitent.

but if we reject the mercy given and refuse to repent and exercise faith in Christ and His atoning sacrifice how can justice be avoided? Because we are guilty. Anyone who is honest knows that.

you think that God should be unjust because you don't want to accept the gift given. That's not how life works.

This is why trying to converse with "christians" is so pointless. They just go into their by rote and very nonsensical harangue.

Very much like militant atheists and progressives. All cut from the same stripe.

 

[emilynghiem]

People say they want justice except when it comes to themselves. Then they want God to be unjust. And just ignore the law.

God has provided justice for those who deserve justice and mercy for the penitent without being unjust.

Yes Avatar and this seems to be Luddly's gripe with Christians who are called to set a higher example not lower.

It seems unjust to keep rewarding forgiving and enabling hateful behavior by Christians,
while judging or condemning others for questioning criticizing and not understanding the meaning with this type behavior going on that looks just as unforgiving and hateful.

It seems sadly ironic to me to expect nonbelievers to forgive hypocrisy first in others and correct their own, if the Christians are supposed to be the ones to teach forgiveness and grace as freely given for the asking. Why shouldn't Christian be the first to forgive and to correct their own hypocrisy to teach by example BEFORE pointing out these flaws in others?

Why teach forgiveness backwards, by forcing nonbelievers to forgive Christians for coming across as hateful hypocrites who haven't repented or forgiven first, yet judge others for not repenting and forgiving when they have not this understanding. Do you see the vicious cycle, the loop of unforgiveness this causes on both sides stuck, both expecting the other side to open up forgive and see their side first?

---------------------------------

Avatar4321: Do you see the tragic irony? If i didn't laugh I would cry, if i didn't weep for humanity I would laugh at the ridiculous.

So sad it's funny, so funny it's sad. Like a Shakespearean screwball tragedy. A tragic comedy at its worst, or a comic tragedy at best, not sure which. The critics are out and we can't make up our minds, do we want a happy ending to the drama, or do we want to self destruct and kill off the entire cast at the end. What does humanity really want, what script do we want to live out?

Shall we be like Romeo and Juliet and die by the scourge of hate, both blaming the other house to the bitter end? Do we embrace in peace and say enough, enough people have died and more relations killed by political or religious conflict, let's start over and do better from this day forth.

Shall we use the stage to kill off each other and die by the sword, or use it to play and dance together?

 

[emilynghiem]

People say they want justice except when it comes to themselves. Then they want God to be unjust. And just ignore the law.

God has provided justice for those who deserve justice and mercy for the penitent without being unjust.

If god made us, why does he have to make laws afterwards. He fuck something up in the design? And any laws that come from a man-written book(s) can't be from god.

Dear TAZ like the Constitution spells out natural laws of due process so we dont hang each other as guilty before proving innocence (ha ha yes we break these rules left and right), the religions spell out laws so those tribes can learn to be self governing.
(natural laws always existed with human nature, but we had to write them down to teach and agree on them. universal laws always existed, but had to be written down to teach through the churches that follow those.)

See the pattern in history
1. Moses gives judaic laws in writing then Jesus fulfills them in spirit and Mohammad also establishes these for more ppl in those three tribes to follow as brothers: the Jew Christians and Muslims under Scripture

2. Founding Fathers wrote out natural laws into the Constitution, and today we are calling for the spirit of the laws to be revived similar to church history but with state laws. Again we start with preexisting laws, then write them down, then fight over how to enforce them until we learn and agree how to live in peace by them. this follows a pattern.

3. Buddha gave the natural laws of interconnected energy or spirit in all living things and this has also been spread among people in those tribes until this higher collective awareness is fulfilled for all.

* First the laws are given.
* Then by trial and error, ppl learn by breaking the rules and learning to correct and prevent abuses or violations causing wrongs or injustice/ injury, ie we go through a vicious learning curve by experience, over generations of war and recovering from war.
* Last people repent of these destructive ways, unite in spirit of the laws and agree to help each other enforce common principles instead of fighting or blaming each other

Every tribes goes through this learning curve.

The bible symbolizes this in stages, with Adam Eve, Moses, Jesus

But all humanity under different laws goes through a similar process of spiritual growth to reach mature level of justice and peace. We forgive the past so we quit repeating those mistakes and rebuild relations, communities, and a better future for everyone.

 

[emilynghiem]

In 2014, when you hear "peace treaty" what comes to your mind?

That you're nuts?

Dear TAZ what is nuts about wanting peace and justice?
Everyone I know wants the truth, wants justice wants peace.

So it makes sense to me the human conscience will keep trying for these things
until we succeed. If it fails, we'll try again and again.

Nobody wants to suffer. Nobody wants someone else having political control over us.

So by "trial and error" the human conscience is driven to establish justice by truth so there is peace.

We aren't satisfied with things we feel are false, unjust or imposed on us where we are distressed and distraught!

Why do you think you are arguing here?
You feel there is false or fraud ideas being pushed
and you DON'T agree, so you seek truth and justice in order to have peace of mind.

So as long as all of us keep pushing until we agree what is truth, and find peace,
then we try, try again. We'll eventually reach some kind of resolution or we will go push someplace else and try that!

BTW IrishRam and Avatar are some of the most reasonable people
on here who will try to explain and work with you.

I will try to help also. It's mostly a communication gap because
nontheists secular gentiles don't speak all this religious symbolism garbage.

Jesus is a symbol of JUSTICE coming in a process of humanity making peace.

That's what the Bible means: moving away from Retributive Justice and war in the world by material greed
which spells death and destruction, and moving toward Restorative Justice and healing relations for peace,
including corrections and restitution in the real world. So a very real establishment of truth and peace worldwide.

That's what it is trying to spell out: the history and future of humanity in SYMBOLS.
but this process affects all of us, in our real lives, even our personal relations.
collectively that means changing world war into world peace. one person, one relationship at a time,
by forgiving and correcting each problem so we resolve all our issues and work things out peaceably.

Just to let you know that your posts are too long, therefore I don't read them. No hot air please.

Dear TAZ
Thanks for your honest reply.
The shortest way to explain what is meant
is to witness spiritual healing by forgiveness. This speaks for itself and requires no words to watch and see it works.

The reason the Bible is symbolic is to
save words. If you want the entire history if humanity, past and future, summarized,
there it is.

If you don't get the mysterious symbols,
if you want it spelled out, you get a lot more words and complicated applications to real life.

If you don't want that,
I'd look into spiritual healing.
Once you get how forgiveness changes lives
you don't need preaching or words.

That's the shortest cut I can give you.
Whatever works best for you,
you will be blessed either way.
Whatever you ask you receive.
Keep asking and the right answers will come.

Thanks for your honesty which will always be rewarded. Love and peace, Happy Thanksgiving. Yours truly, Emily

So basically you're saying that the stories in the bible aren't true. Got it.

They are rife with symbolism
And represent true stages universal to all humanity but not merely literal: some ppl read them as literal history, some as figurative or spiritual process as I focus on, and both approaches are right and work for those people.

They are universally true but have relative meaning to different people.

The spirit of the message is true.
I can sum it up in 250 words If you want
The cliff notes version, TAZ
I can post the link but im on my cell phone,
Hold on,..,

OKay found it, here's the Cliff Notes 250 word summary of the Bible
and Christ Jesus as Restorative Justice:
How to explain the Bible without reading it - Worth1000 Contests

If you like this, if this makes sense to you, TAZ, I will change my Avatar to be
either a silly Donkey or a lost Horse, you take your pick, until I change it to something
else for the next person who can make sense of my long complicated explanations trying to find a shortcut.
here are two avatars you can choose from
hold on again...

Here's the Wonky Donkey image since I'm a liberal Democrat but no one believes that:
The Wonky Donkey - Worth1000 Contests

Here's the poor horsey who can't figure it out:
Backyard Games - Worth1000 Contests

if you and Luddly can figure out how to resolve these issues
I will change my avatar to either or both things, back and forth if necessary,
in honor of your honest effort to make peace, when I don't think it should be on you.

I think if Christians want to share the message they should join in doing more to
correct the problems and explain the meaning in real terms, and quit putting the burden on others, especially those they criticize most for not understanding the message.

 

[emilynghiem]

lol, I'm still on page 12. I'm just breezing my way through the homosexual activist rhetoric on my other two threads in the politics forum. When I am done, rest assured I'll be back to breeze through this pile. and remember:

For those of you tearing up throughout the brief duration of my momentary laps in a stitch of absence, don't cry because you are not able to, with so much as a shred of validity, contest the facts which reveal that the foundation of every religion is based upon lies, no other person on the planet is capable because what I share are the facts that have already so very cleanly proven that the foundation of every religion is based upon lies as clearly demonstrated within the video beginning this very thread. Embrace it, for what is the sense in believing in anything if when you are presented with the facts that verify or falsify your belief, you are just going to ignore it and pretend the facts are what doesn't exist. It really is a warped sense of reality that the religious suffer. I'm here for you! One life is worth more than every religion that ever existed.

love

David Jeffrey Spetch
Ps. Be good, be strong!

Dear David Jeffrey Spetch:
1. prove that Buddhist teachings are based on lies
2. explain why you don't treat Constitutionalism as a political religion based on lies
because our laws once protected slavery, and punished escape as theft of property,
so it didn't recognize people as equals, and today our immigration laws are questioning the same concept:
why are we treating citizens as criminals, criminals as citizens.
where is the "equal justice under law" or is equality a lie?
3. Otherwise admit that you don't practice your own belief.
you won't throw out Constitutional laws that once enforced lies that slaves weren't equal humans,
and/or still enforce lies that people are equal under laws when our court system isn't equal.
Those who can afford to pay for lawyers to buy freedom from conviction
aren't equal with those without equal defense or resources.

So admit your own beliefs are based on a lie.
If you either
endorse Constitutional beliefs or if you don't renounce them as you do other beliefs.

I challenge you in the Bullring to answer the three above.

Thanks David!

 

[The Irish Ram]

The Bible is to be taken literally. If it is not then the whole thing is up to Emily's translation of what it means, Taz's idea of what it means, my idea about what it means.......... And it is why we get thrown off track.

Em, we were not meant to be under the law. It removes God's mercy. From the time we inhabited the garden to the time the Jews walked out of Egypt, man was forgiven by our loving Father while we were in the midst of sinning. He forgave us and put anything that separated us from Him behind Him that quickly. It was not until the those specific Jews, wandering and whining in the dessert, boasted that they could keep any laws God set before them, that God called them on it.

Notice that right up until that time, those Jews were forgiven while they were sinning, and being provided for at the same time. There was no condemnation. No judging. No abandonment because of their behavior. That was their Father. What they did was turn their Father into their judge.
Note again, that God, knowing how weak man can be, gave them a propitiation to cover their sins even while under the law. They all got get out of jail free cards. They didn't break the laws and die. They broke the laws and lived through a temporary sacrifice.

And if you read the words in that book without any personal spin, you'll understand what it says. The law brought judgment and death. Christ received our judgement so that we could have life and have it more abundantly.

There is no need to translate the Bible anymore than there is need to translate the Constitution. It means just what it says:

37 Scriptures That Prove Christians Are Not Under The Law

Acts
The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

Romans
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)

If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)

The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)

The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)

Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

Christians have been delivered from the law. (Romans 7:1-6)

The law is good, perfect and holy but cannot help you be good, perfect or holy. (Romans 7:7-12)

The law which promises life only brings death through sin. (Romans 7:10)

The law makes you sinful beyond measure. (Romans 7:13)

The law is weak. (Romans 8:2-3)

1 Corinthians
The strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56)

2 Corinthians
The law is a ministry of death. (2 Corinthians 3:7)

The law is a ministry of condemnation. (2 Corinthians 3:9)

The law has no glory at all in comparison with the New Covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:10)

The law is fading away. (2 Corinthians 3:11)

Anywhere the law is preached it produces a mind-hardening and a heart-hardening veil. (2 Corinthians 3:14-15)

Galatians
The law justifies nobody. (Galatians 2:16)

Christians are dead to the law. (Galatians 2:19)

The law frustrates grace. (Galatians 2:21)

To go back to the law after embracing faith is “stupid”. (Galatians 3:1)

The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly. (Galatians 3:10)

The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)

The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from. (Galatians 3:13)

The law functioned in God’s purpose as a temporary covenant from Moses till John the Baptist announced Christ. (Galatians 3:16 & 19, also see… Matthew 11:12-13, Luke 16:16)

If the law worked God would have used it to save us. (Galatians 3:21)

The law was our prison. (Galatians 3:23)

The law makes you a slave like Hagar. (Galatians 4:24)

Ephesians
Christ has abolished the law which was a wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:15)

Philippians
Paul considered everything the law gained him as “skybalon” which is Greek for “sh*t”. (Philippians 3:4-8)

1 Timothy
The law is only good if used in the right context. (1 Timothy 1:8) (see next verse for the context)

It was made for the unrighteous but not for the righteous. (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

Hebrews
The law is weak, useless and makes nothing perfect. (Hebrews 7:18-19)

God has found fault with it and created a better covenant, enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:7-8)

 

[emilynghiem]

The Bible is to be taken literally. If it is not then the whole thing is up to Emily's translation of what it means, Taz's idea of what it means, my idea about what it means.......... And it is why we get thrown off track.

Em, we were not meant to be under the law. It removes God's mercy. From the time we inhabited the garden to the time the Jews walked out of Egypt, man was forgiven by our loving Father while we were in the midst of sinning. He forgave us and put anything that separated us from Him behind Him that quickly. It was not until the those specific Jews, wandering and whining in the dessert, boasted that they could keep any laws God set before them, that God called them on it.

Notice that right up until that time, those Jews were forgiven while they were sinning, and being provided for at the same time. There was no condemnation. No judging. No abandonment because of their behavior. That was their Father. What they did was turn their Father into their judge.
Note again, that God, knowing how weak man can be, gave them a propitiation to cover their sins even while under the law. They all got get out of jail free cards. They didn't break the laws and die. They broke the laws and lived through a temporary sacrifice.

And if you read the words in that book without any personal spin, you'll understand what it says. The law brought judgment and death. Christ received our judgement so that we could have life and have it more abundantly.

There is no need to translate the Bible anymore than there is need to translate the Constitution. It means just what it says.

Dear Irish Ram:
Yes, for those who need to follow it literally I agree.

And no, it doesn't mean to throw it all out for relativism
because the Bible itself calls for us to reach AGREEMENT in Christ
point by point. See matthew 18:15-20

if anyone takes parts out of context, misinterprets or makes a mess of it,
then the other fellow believers are supposed to correct our neighbor.

so this way we stay aligned with God's truth and will through Christ.
we can correct if things go astray, by following the Scripture and reaching agreement in Christ at all times.

Irish Ram: if we were to take the Bible literally, we'd all be in trouble!

We have to interpret it correctly, I agree.

So that's why it SO important to have agreement with
believers like you who can bridge the gap between the literalists and the
figurative who are more inclusive.

If we only went by what is LITERALLY in the Bible
then we could not add the Constitutional laws because those are not LITERALLY in the Bible.
that would be literally "adding laws" to the Bible that aren't stated explicitly.

Clearly we believe that due process is a natural law
and the civil authority includes Constitutional protections.

But if we went by literal laws, there is nothing in the Bible that
states the Constitutional laws like in the First and fourteenth Amendments.
We need those laws to communicate and establish agreement with others.

Consent of the Governed is not literally in the Constitution either.
But we need to teach that if we are going to foster agreement on laws through Christ.
If we get TOO literal, we'd lose the spirit of the laws and haggle over the letter.

I understand your concern and that is why we need agreement in Christ
to check against taking things out of context and skewing the meaning or truth.

if we agree on the spirit of the laws first, there is less chance of going astray with the letter.
I believe common commitment in Christ gives us this ability to correct
such errors and stay within lines or points of agreement on truth.

Thanks Irish Ram you remind me why you are so important
because you can see and sense these things and help keep them
in line with Scripture. we need to stay in line, I fully agree!

 

[The Irish Ram]

Em, God doesn't want to be our judge. He wants to be our Father. The law frustrates God for that reason. It is not that the laws aren't good examples to live by, but if you put yourself/salvation under them, even the big 10, then you are obligated by your judge to keep the other 531 also. We don't have the option of choosing the ones we like.
Trying to keep those laws takes your eye off of Christ and on to self. It means Christ's work was incomplete and needs our participation to finalize our salvation.

The Bible clearly states that we are under a new and better covenant. One that puts our eternal life under Christ's performance instead of our own. That is why your name is written in the Book of Life the moment you accept Christ as your savior, and not at the end of your life so that God can add up your score and then add Christ's score to yours and then grade you on a curve. Salvation doesn't work like that. We repay Christ by living as best we can as His disciples, but any work we put forth to be "worthy" of salvation is likened to a used menstrual pad. That egg will not live. A woman who is bleeding, is not producing fruit.

Christ fulfilled the law and gave us back our Father. The judge declared our sentence complete and finished at the cross, and took His robe off.

 

[emilynghiem]

Em, God doesn't want to be our judge. He wants to be our Father. The law frustrates God for that reason. It is not that the laws aren't good examples to live by, but if you put yourself/salvation under them, even the big 10, then you are obligated by your judge to keep the other 531 also. We don't have the option of choosing the ones we like.
Trying to keep those laws takes your eye off of Christ and on to self. It means Christ's work was incomplete and needs our participation to finalize our salvation.

The Bible clearly states that we are under a new and better covenant. One that puts our eternal life under Christ's performance instead of our own. That is why your name is written in the Book of Life the moment you accept Christ as your savior, and not at the end of your life so that God can add up your score and then add Christ's score to yours and then grade you on a curve. Salvation doesn't work like that. We repay Christ by living as best we can as His disciples, but any work we put forth to be "worthy" of salvation is likened to a used menstrual pad. That egg will not live. A woman who is bleeding, is not producing fruit.

Christ fulfilled the law and gave us back our Father. The judge declared our sentence complete and finished at the cross, and took His robe off.

We are called to judge not but judge righteous judgment.

I agree that it isn't God that is judging us
but we are learning to perfect our own judgment, perception understanding of truth.

We learn by comparing with others.
A lot is by mirroring, even projecting, where we notice wrongs in our neighbor
and they notice things we miss!

So the Bible instructs us to remove the beams from our own eyes
before helping a neighbor with a splinter.

in this way, we check each other's biases, we spot and correct our neighbor
as you are trying to help me here and I accept and work with you to amend the problem and fix it.

in this way we are made perfect in Christ even as our heavenly father is perfect,
whole mature as humanity at peace

we are called to help one another, not to be stumbling blocks,
but to review and correct trespasses so that we stay in line and aren't lost in problems or conflicts

Matthew 18 whenever two or three agree in Christ on anything touching the Earth it is done by our Father in Heaven

as we build consensus in the spirit of Truth, it multiplies and builds the kingdom of God on Earth as it is in Heaven.

Here Irish Ram can you please help fellow believers come to agreement in Christ:
Is There One Sound valid Syllogistic Argument For The Existence Of God Page 543 US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

 

[Avatar4321]

Why do you presume the laws were not in play before creation of man. Many of them are eternal in nature.