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Our founding fathers were NOT libertarians.
George Washington belonged to the Established Church (Episcopalian) of the State of Virginia; he also was the chief vindicator of national power in the new republic. 2
Nice try. Are you saying our founding fathers were authoritarians?
The selfish spirit of commerce knows no country, and feels no passion or principle but that of gain.
Thomas Jefferson - Letter to Larkin Smith (1809).
Are you so dumb that you interpreted it that way?
The Founding Fathers were Libertarians.
You are the polar opposite: Authoritarian.
They spit on you.
I spit on you.
Eat my sig.
Also, this video is for Hatchetmen like yourself:
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xcJT7F_BXo]2013 Epic DUBSTEP REMIX Alex Jones vs Piers Morgan [HD720p] Edit by Alex Totterdell - YouTube[/ame]
DEMOCIDE GOOGLE IT FOLKS
Democide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Our founding fathers were NOT libertarians.
George Washington belonged to the Established Church (Episcopalian) of the State of Virginia; he also was the chief vindicator of national power in the new republic. Thomas Jefferson determined to wage war by simply denying foreigners the right to trade with the U.S. So did Madison. What libertarian has ever thought the government could cut off trade between free individuals?
Further, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine supported the French Revolution. That revolution denied there was anything the state could not do in the name of the people. Jefferson never repudiated his support for that tyranny and Thomas Paine was only slightly more dismissive even after it nearly killed him. [...]
The Founders believed in carefully delineated federal powers either broad (Hamilton) or limited (Jefferson, sometimes) but all believed in a more powerful state than libertarians purport to believe in. If ever there was a libertarian document it was the Articles of Confederation. There was no national power. The federal government could not tax. Its laws were not supreme over state laws. It was in fact, the hot mess that critics of libertarians believe their dream state would be ... and it was recognized as such by the majority of the country and was why the Constitution was ratified. The Articles of Confederation is the true libertarian founding document and this explains the failure of libertarianism.
"The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482
Our founding fathers were NOT libertarians.
George Washington belonged to the Established Church (Episcopalian) of the State of Virginia; he also was the chief vindicator of national power in the new republic. 2
Of couse, there was no Libertarian Party back then. But GW spoke like a present day Libertarian
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.
George Washington
Or does he sound like a state supremacist Marxist to you?
.
Are you so dumb that you interpreted it that way?
The Founding Fathers were Libertarians.
You are the polar opposite: Authoritarian.
They spit on you.
I spit on you.
Eat my sig.
Also, this video is for Hatchetmen like yourself:
2013 Epic DUBSTEP REMIX Alex Jones vs Piers Morgan [HD720p] Edit by Alex Totterdell - YouTube
DEMOCIDE GOOGLE IT FOLKS
Democide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Our founding fathers were NOT libertarians.
George Washington belonged to the Established Church (Episcopalian) of the State of Virginia; he also was the chief vindicator of national power in the new republic. Thomas Jefferson determined to wage war by simply denying foreigners the right to trade with the U.S. So did Madison. What libertarian has ever thought the government could cut off trade between free individuals?
Further, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine supported the French Revolution. That revolution denied there was anything the state could not do in the name of the people. Jefferson never repudiated his support for that tyranny and Thomas Paine was only slightly more dismissive even after it nearly killed him. [...]
The Founders believed in carefully delineated federal powers either broad (Hamilton) or limited (Jefferson, sometimes) but all believed in a more powerful state than libertarians purport to believe in. If ever there was a libertarian document it was the Articles of Confederation. There was no national power. The federal government could not tax. Its laws were not supreme over state laws. It was in fact, the hot mess that critics of libertarians believe their dream state would be ... and it was recognized as such by the majority of the country and was why the Constitution was ratified. The Articles of Confederation is the true libertarian founding document and this explains the failure of libertarianism.
"The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482
To assume a single political inclination amongst all of the framers is the height of folly. They were as diverse in their politics then as we are now... perhaps more so. Some were Deists who rejected the divinity of Christ (Jefferson and Franklin), while others were nothing short of fundamentalist christians (Sam Adams as termed the "Last Puritan"). Some where businessmen, some were farmers, some were slave ownners and some were abolotionists.
What is true is that the Constitution itself is a libertarian document and was marketed and sold on that premise. It is true that the anti-federalist preferred a constitution which would be substantially more libertarian than than the federalists... but that tells us nothing about how these same people felt about the power to be exercised by state governement.
About the only true thing that the framers shared was a political philosophy roughly based upon the enlightenment phiolosphy of Hobbes and Locke.
Our founding fathers were NOT libertarians.
George Washington belonged to the Established Church (Episcopalian) of the State of Virginia; he also was the chief vindicator of national power in the new republic. 2
Of couse, there was no Libertarian Party back then. But GW spoke like a present day Libertarian
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.
George Washington
Or does he sound like a state supremacist Marxist to you?
.
Our founding fathers didn't talk like libertarians, act like libertarians or govern like libertarians. Our founding fathers were not laissez-faire capitalists. As a matter of fact, they make modern liberals look laissez-faire
Are you so dumb that you interpreted it that way?
The Founding Fathers were Libertarians.
You are the polar opposite: Authoritarian.
They spit on you.
I spit on you.
Eat my sig.
Also, this video is for Hatchetmen like yourself:
2013 Epic DUBSTEP REMIX Alex Jones vs Piers Morgan [HD720p] Edit by Alex Totterdell - YouTube
DEMOCIDE GOOGLE IT FOLKS
Democide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Our founding fathers were NOT libertarians.
George Washington belonged to the Established Church (Episcopalian) of the State of Virginia; he also was the chief vindicator of national power in the new republic. Thomas Jefferson determined to wage war by simply denying foreigners the right to trade with the U.S. So did Madison. What libertarian has ever thought the government could cut off trade between free individuals?
Further, Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine supported the French Revolution. That revolution denied there was anything the state could not do in the name of the people. Jefferson never repudiated his support for that tyranny and Thomas Paine was only slightly more dismissive even after it nearly killed him. [...]
The Founders believed in carefully delineated federal powers either broad (Hamilton) or limited (Jefferson, sometimes) but all believed in a more powerful state than libertarians purport to believe in. If ever there was a libertarian document it was the Articles of Confederation. There was no national power. The federal government could not tax. Its laws were not supreme over state laws. It was in fact, the hot mess that critics of libertarians believe their dream state would be ... and it was recognized as such by the majority of the country and was why the Constitution was ratified. The Articles of Confederation is the true libertarian founding document and this explains the failure of libertarianism.
"The equal rights of man, and the happiness of every individual, are now acknowledged to be the only legitimate objects of government. Modern times have the signal advantage, too, of having discovered the only device by which these rights can be secured, to wit: government by the people, acting not in person, but by representatives chosen by themselves, that is to say, by every man of ripe years and sane mind, who contributes either by his purse or person to the support of his country." --Thomas Jefferson to A. Coray, 1823. ME 15:482
To assume a single political inclination amongst all of the framers is the height of folly. They were as diverse in their politics then as we are now... perhaps more so. Some were Deists who rejected the divinity of Christ (Jefferson and Franklin), while others were nothing short of fundamentalist christians (Sam Adams as termed the "Last Puritan"). Some where businessmen, some were farmers, some were slave ownners and some were abolotionists.
What is true is that the Constitution itself is a libertarian document and was marketed and sold on that premise. It is true that the anti-federalist preferred a constitution which would be substantially more libertarian than than the federalists... but that tells us nothing about how these same people felt about the power to be exercised by state governement.
About the only true thing that the framers shared was a political philosophy roughly based upon the enlightenment phiolosphy of Hobbes and Locke.
To assume a single political inclination amongst all of the framers is the height of folly. They were as diverse in their politics then as we are now... perhaps more so. Some were Deists who rejected the divinity of Christ (Jefferson and Franklin), while others were nothing short of fundamentalist christians (Sam Adams as termed the "Last Puritan"). Some where businessmen, some were farmers, some were slave ownners and some were abolotionists.
What is true is that the Constitution itself is a libertarian document and was marketed and sold on that premise. It is true that the anti-federalist preferred a constitution which would be substantially more libertarian than than the federalists... but that tells us nothing about how these same people felt about the power to be exercised by state governement.
About the only true thing that the framers shared was a political philosophy roughly based upon the enlightenment phiolosphy of Hobbes and Locke.
Our founding fathers didn't talk like libertarians, act like libertarians or govern like libertarians. Our founding fathers were not laissez-faire capitalists. As a matter of fact, they make modern liberals look laissez-faire
To assume a single political inclination amongst all of the framers is the height of folly. They were as diverse in their politics then as we are now... perhaps more so. Some were Deists who rejected the divinity of Christ (Jefferson and Franklin), while others were nothing short of fundamentalist christians (Sam Adams as termed the "Last Puritan"). Some where businessmen, some were farmers, some were slave ownners and some were abolotionists.
What is true is that the Constitution itself is a libertarian document and was marketed and sold on that premise. It is true that the anti-federalist preferred a constitution which would be substantially more libertarian than than the federalists... but that tells us nothing about how these same people felt about the power to be exercised by state governement.
About the only true thing that the framers shared was a political philosophy roughly based upon the enlightenment phiolosphy of Hobbes and Locke.
What you say is true. Since they didn't' trust government, since they didn't' even trust each other, they created a Libertarian Constitution, that has been the most successful Constitution in all of World History.
To assume a single political inclination amongst all of the framers is the height of folly. They were as diverse in their politics then as we are now... perhaps more so. Some were Deists who rejected the divinity of Christ (Jefferson and Franklin), while others were nothing short of fundamentalist christians (Sam Adams as termed the "Last Puritan"). Some where businessmen, some were farmers, some were slave ownners and some were abolotionists.
What is true is that the Constitution itself is a libertarian document and was marketed and sold on that premise. It is true that the anti-federalist preferred a constitution which would be substantially more libertarian than than the federalists... but that tells us nothing about how these same people felt about the power to be exercised by state governement.
About the only true thing that the framers shared was a political philosophy roughly based upon the enlightenment phiolosphy of Hobbes and Locke.
What you say is true. Since they didn't' trust government, since they didn't' even trust each other, they created a Libertarian Constitution, that has been the most successful Constitution in all of World History.
You're still doing that conflation thing. Replace the word "Libertarian" with "liberal" (small L) and you'll have it right.
What you say is true. Since they didn't' trust government, since they didn't' even trust each other, they created a Libertarian Constitution, that has been the most successful Constitution in all of World History.
You're still doing that conflation thing. Replace the word "Libertarian" with "liberal" (small L) and you'll have it right.
The Founding Fathers were Classical Liberals - unfortunately , the word is used nowadays to identify politicians who support the welfare state.
.
To assume a single political inclination amongst all of the framers is the height of folly. They were as diverse in their politics then as we are now... perhaps more so. Some were Deists who rejected the divinity of Christ (Jefferson and Franklin), while others were nothing short of fundamentalist christians (Sam Adams as termed the "Last Puritan"). Some where businessmen, some were farmers, some were slave ownners and some were abolotionists.
Strange post -- seems to start out by positing that the Founders were of diverse politics, and then immediately goes to document diverse religions...
I sense the word "libertarian" has been conflated here with the word "liberal". Two different things.
Our founding fathers were NOT libertarians.
George Washington belonged to the Established Church (Episcopalian) of the State of Virginia; he also was the chief vindicator of national power in the new republic. 2
Of couse, there was no Libertarian Party back then. But GW spoke like a present day Libertarian
Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.
George Washington
Or does he sound like a state supremacist Marxist to you?
.
Our founding fathers didn't talk like libertarians, act like libertarians or govern like libertarians. Our founding fathers were not laissez-faire capitalists. As a matter of fact, they make modern liberals look laissez-faire
Our founding fathers did not subscribe to Adam Smith's 'invisible hand'. They believed in very heavy regulations and restrictions on corporations. They were men who held ethics as the most important attribute. They viewed being paid by the American people for their services as a privilege not a right. And they had no problem closing down any corporation that swindled the people, and holding owners and stockholder personally liable for any harm to the people they caused.
Early laws regulating corporations in America
*Corporations were required to have a clear purpose, to be fulfilled but not exceeded.
*Corporations licenses to do business were revocable by the state legislature if they exceeded or did not fulfill their chartered purpose(s).
*The state legislature could revoke a corporations charter if it misbehaved.
*The act of incorporation did not relieve corporate management or stockholders/owners of responsibility or liability for corporate acts.
*As a matter of course, corporation officers, directors, or agents couldnt break the law and avoid punishment by claiming they were just doing their job when committing crimes but instead could be held criminally liable for violating the law.
*Directors of the corporation were required to come from among stockholders.
*Corporations had to have their headquarters and meetings in the state where their principal place of business was located.
*Corporation charters were granted for a specific period of time, such as twenty or thirty years (instead of being granted in perpetuity, as is now the practice).
*Corporations were prohibited from owning stock in other corporations, to prevent them from extending their power inappropriately.
*Corporations real estate holdings were limited to what was necessary to carry out their specific purpose(s).
*Corporations were prohibited from making any political contributions, direct or indirect.
*Corporations were prohibited from making charitable or civic donations outside of their specific purposes.
*State legislatures could set the rates that some monopoly corporations could charge for their products or services.
*All corporation records and documents were open to the legislature or the state attorney general.
The Early Role of Corporations in America
The Legacy of the Founding Parents
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What caused the Progressive movement
We tried unregulated corporations in America. The closest experiment to total deregulation in this country occurred between the end of the Civil War and the beginning of the 19th century...it was called the Gilded Age; an era where America was as far from our founder's intent of a democratic society and closest to an aristocracy that our founder's were willing to lay down their lives to defeat.
It was opposition to that same Gilded Age that was the genesis of the Progressive movement in this country. When you study history, almost always just cause is behind it.
The only enemies of the Constitution are those who try to wield it as a weapon against the living, by using the words of the dead.
Me
What you say is true. Since they didn't' trust government, since they didn't' even trust each other, they created a Libertarian Constitution, that has been the most successful Constitution in all of World History.
You're still doing that conflation thing. Replace the word "Libertarian" with "liberal" (small L) and you'll have it right.
The Founding Fathers were Classical Liberals - unfortunately , the word is used nowadays to identify politicians who support the welfare state.
.
Please. Have you never been out of the country?
What you say is true. Since they didn't' trust government, since they didn't' even trust each other, they created a Libertarian Constitution, that has been the most successful Constitution in all of World History.
You're still doing that conflation thing. Replace the word "Libertarian" with "liberal" (small L) and you'll have it right.
The Founding Fathers were Classical Liberals - unfortunately , the word is used nowadays to identify politicians who support the welfare state.
.
To assume a single political inclination amongst all of the framers is the height of folly. They were as diverse in their politics then as we are now... perhaps more so. Some were Deists who rejected the divinity of Christ (Jefferson and Franklin), while others were nothing short of fundamentalist christians (Sam Adams as termed the "Last Puritan"). Some where businessmen, some were farmers, some were slave ownners and some were abolotionists.
Strange post -- seems to start out by positing that the Founders were of diverse politics, and then immediately goes to document diverse religions...
I sense the word "libertarian" has been conflated here with the word "liberal". Two different things.
My intent was to demonstrate that the framers did not march in idealogical lockstep and had differing views in politics, religion and culture.
Iberals and libertarians have much in common. They both believe in the primacy of the individual and the promotion of individual rights. The major distinction is that liberals believe the governemnt is the best way to promote and protect individual rights, while libertarians believe that the government is the biggest threat to individual rights... They have more in common with each other than liberals have with progressives and libertarians have with conservatives.
You're still doing that conflation thing. Replace the word "Libertarian" with "liberal" (small L) and you'll have it right.
The Founding Fathers were Classical Liberals - unfortunately , the word is used nowadays to identify politicians who support the welfare state.
.
The fact is that the concept of the state as presented in some modern libertarian writing owes much more to 19th century German ideas than to the 18th century Anglo-American legacy. In 18th century Britain, the question of whether ministers owed obedience to the king or to Parliament was a blurry and uncertain one. In 19th century Germany and Austro-Hungary, the question was clear: ministers obeyed the monarch. Period. The state as experienced by Ludwig von Mises and Friedrich von Hayek was something outside civil society, something that society could not reliably control, and therefore had to be contained. A John Adams might think of the king of England that way, but thats not how hed think of the legislature of the commonwealth of Massachusetts.
Libertarian psychology would have been even more indigestible to the 18th century mind than libertarian politics. Libertarianism argues that each individual should enjoy the widest possible scope to live as he or she thinks best. Its an attractive ideal, one widely shared by 21st century people. Modern liberals share the libertarian commitment to autonomy, as this ideal is generally called they just disagree about the institutions needed to support autonomy.
But to an American of the Founding generation, the ideal of autonomy would have contradicted four of the most fundamental physical and psychic facts of life:
Latinity
Calvinism
material scarcity and
slaveholding
Lets take them in turn
Elite Americans of the Founding generation were deeply shaped not literally by Roman ideas, but by the 18th century understanding of Roman ideas. Heres a perfect example: George Washingtons favorite play was Joseph Addisons Cato, published in 1713. Washington adapted words from that play in his famous speech quelling the Newburgh mutiny in 1783. Patrick Henrys give me liberty or give me death was likewise a paraphrase of a speech from Addisons play. Ditto Nathan Hales I only regret I have but one life to give for my country. So influential, right?
And what was the message of that play? That the most precious thing in life is honor. And what is honor? It is the esteem of the wise and the good. Better to die in a way that earns the admiration of others than to live without that admiration. It is hard to imagine a more radical antipode to Ayn Rands formula, I swear by my life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine.
Less elite Americans of the Founding generation were shaped less by Addison and the Latin classics than by religious traditions heavily tinged by Calvinism.
If ever a religious tradition emphasized the danger of giving scope to the individual will, Calvinism was that tradition:
Man, having been corrupted by his fall, sins voluntarily, not with reluctance or constraint; with the strongest propensity of disposition, not with violent coercion; with the bias of his own passions, and not with external compulsion: yet such is the depravity of his nature that he cannot be excited and biased to anything but what is evil (From Institutes of the Christian Religion).
It would be hard to imagine a mental outlook less conducive to the libertarian celebration of individual choice than that bequeathed by Calvinism not only to New England Puritanism but also to the hardshell Baptists of the South such as for example the parents of Abraham Lincoln.
Only a very few Americans of the Founding generation enjoyed anything like material security. While most white Americans enjoyed a higher standard of living than European peasants, that comparative abundance was a desperately precarious state. An American who drank too much, who had too many children, who got into a fight and suffered a wound that could be infected in short anyone who did not tightly control his impulses risked disaster not only for himself or herself, but also for his or her loved ones. In such a world, the psychology of modern libertarianism the desire to live unrestrained by any force outside oneself would be seen by most as an invitation to self-destruction.
Libertarianism is very much a movement of post-1945 affluent society America, a society that has developed birth control and drug rehab, antibiotics and antidepressants. We are a society abounding in second chances. 18th century America was a society in which a personal misstep could easily lead to premature and unpleasant death. Self-actualization through self-expression was a concept not imaginable until GDP per capita rose many, many thousands of dollars higher than the level prevailing in 1776.
Fourth and finally: the libertarian ideal was psychologically unavailable to 18th century Americans because 18th century America was a slaveholding society.
Frum Forum
To assume a single political inclination amongst all of the framers is the height of folly. They were as diverse in their politics then as we are now... perhaps more so. Some were Deists who rejected the divinity of Christ (Jefferson and Franklin), while others were nothing short of fundamentalist christians (Sam Adams as termed the "Last Puritan"). Some where businessmen, some were farmers, some were slave ownners and some were abolotionists.
Strange post -- seems to start out by positing that the Founders were of diverse politics, and then immediately goes to document diverse religions...
I sense the word "libertarian" has been conflated here with the word "liberal". Two different things.
My intent was to demonstrate that the framers did not march in idealogical lockstep and had differing views in politics, religion and culture.
Iberals and libertarians have much in common. They both believe in the primacy of the individual and the promotion of individual rights. The major distinction is that liberals believe the governemnt is the best way to promote and protect individual rights, while libertarians believe that the government is the biggest threat to individual rights... They have more in common with each other than liberals have with progressives and libertarians have with conservatives.
The reason the Founding Fathers REJECTED government intervention was because the EVIDENCE showed that governments through out the ages murdered, maimed and tortured its citizens.
.
You're still doing that conflation thing. Replace the word "Libertarian" with "liberal" (small L) and you'll have it right.
The Founding Fathers were Classical Liberals - unfortunately , the word is used nowadays to identify politicians who support the welfare state.
.
Oh bullshit.
There ain't no welfare state anywhere near here. ?
