Texas doesn't have a right to secede (Don't get your news from right wing message boards)

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Anyone who wants to leave the country can get the fuck out. No “Berlin Wall” keeping you here.

Anyone who appreciates their U.S. citizenship can stay and use their citizenship rights to vote or participate in local, state or national politics to improve our laws and our Republic. As long as one doesn’t break the law here, all of us already have more political rights here ... than most places in the world.

Anybody who breaks the law to force their candidate on the rest of us after an election has been confirmed and certified, anyone who tries to break up our Republic via insurrection, attacking Congress, etc. ... they of course should be treated as traitors and criminals.

Those who say “the law” cannot prevent the breakup of a country whose people desperately want to break apart ... are of course correct.

But such break-ups are almost always extremely violent and destructive (unless all sides agree to separation). Even assuming that a majority of say, Texans, wanted to secede, what about the huge minority that did not? They would of course demand the Federal government protect their rights as U.S. Citizens. The result? Civil War. This is something genuine U.S. enemies would love to see.

In short, all this talk of unilateral secession is totally irresponsible. But then, what else is new? This is USMB!

Most of what you say is true but you need to realize that a large number of sane intelligent patriotic Americans believe that traitors have staged a coup by fixing the election and that the only responsible thing to do is to deal with that reality. The reality that the America we knew and loved is dead and will remain so unless we are able to find and implement a solution. You believe government (and the courts are indeed part of government) claims that the election was honest; we don't. I very much wish the courts would have stepped in and demanded an honest thorough and transparent investigation. Maybe that would have been acceptable to both sides. They didn't and now we are all well and truly screwed. 2021 promises to make 2020 the good ole days.

Thanks for the sincere tone of your comment. I do realize how much of our nation feels the way you describe. I haven’t any easy answers to resolving the mad cultural and political divides that Trump’s presidency has ... exacerbated. I think your point about trying to bridge the divide is important. But ask yourself: Would anything ever convince Donald Trump himself (and thus his most loyal supporters) that he was defeated legitimately? I think you know the answer to this.

My own hostility to Trump was never based just upon what he claimed he was in favor of, at least some of which I agreed with. But ask yourself: Would anything ever convince Donald Trump himself (and thus his most loyal supporters) that he was defeated legitimately? I think you know the answer to this.

I’ve been a “radical” since my youth, and I know what it means to fight the system. I expect little from “the Establishment” and the political class in general, and far less from the new crop of right populist politicians who now claim to oppose it.

To me none of this is new. I remember the Civil Rights Movement when southern African-Americans were mostly not even allowed to vote. I was active in the movement against the Vietnam War. Now there are new wars fought only with professional soldiers, and everybody can vote — but the craziness on all sides is still here. There is plenty of blame to go around, of course. Back in those days these was never just partisan “party” issues.

It seems to me that “Liberal capitalism” worldwide is struggling with profoundly “illiberal” nationalist movements, and Trump just represents a particularly crazy “American” version of this phenomenon. At the same time Americans are losing confidence in our own democratic and Republican institutions, partly because our nation’s once overwhelming supremacy internationally is disappearing, and with it some of our economic supremacy. Civil War or breaking up our country will only finish off our democracy and destroy our international pre-eminence altogether.

But I’m probably boring you with all this.
Sorry I couldn’t answer in a more satisfactory manner.

But ask yourself: Would anything ever convince Donald Trump himself (and thus his most loyal supporters) that he was defeated legitimately? I think you know the answer to this.
No, too little too late.

I also well remember the Civil Rights and "anti-war" movements and the violence associated with both. From my side of the fence it seemed that the Left deliberately sponsored and encouraged maximum violence and divisiveness. From my viewpoint the "anti-war" movement would have more accurately been described as the Anti-America movement. I was one of those soldiers you guys were calling "baby killers" spitting on and throwing dog shit at. I was drafted and my only intent was the serve and protect my Country. You guys were busy spreading communist propaganda while flying the flags of an enemy actively engaged in killing my friends and relatives while burning the flag we fought for in the streets. Jane Fonda John Kerry and the VVAW openly committed treason and were never held accountable. To my mind we are looking at 50+ years of deliberate divisiveness that have repeatedly resulted in violence injury and death. That makes it really really hard to take claims about Trump's "divisiveness" seriously.

My own hostility to Trump was never based just upon what he claimed he was in favor of, at least some of which I agreed with. It was his demagogy and divisiveness I opposed. I always suspected and feared Trump’s presidency would lead to just such a mad divide in society.

As noted above it appears to me the divide you speak of is certainly neither new nor Trump's "fault". It has long existed and been steadily growing for decades. At this point finger pointing serves no useful purpose.

At the same time Americans are losing confidence in our own democratic and Republican institutions, partly because our nation’s once overwhelming supremacy internationally is disappearing, and with it some of our economic supremacy. Civil War or breaking up our country will only finish off our democracy and destroy our international pre-eminence altogether.

I don't see that international supremacy has anything to do with the situation and would submit that many of us consider our democracy already lost. Otherwise I have to agree with your statement.

Thanks again for hearing me out & presenting your own views.

I would like to say, just to be clear, that I worked for our draftees by trying to get them removed from where they were sent by gutless and foolish politicians. I have no doubt your own intent was to serve and protect our country, though of course no Vietnamese ever came to the U.S. to bomb or kill.

I am proud of my own work in the movement, which did not at all resemble what you describe. But I cannot claim my efforts often rose to the level of the those who risked life and limb in the early days of the southern Civil Rights Movement. Perhaps another time we can exchange “war stories.”

I hope you and those you were close to got through that terrible war unhurt.

Nobody got through that war unhurt. The VA considers me 80% disabled as a result of my service. A quick bio of my service is here: Harold E. Keim: Remember

My mother and father were both there the same time you were. They met at the big MASH hospital in Dong Tam south of Saigon in 1969.

Mom was a MASH OR nurse - O2
Dad was transferred down from Saigon as a E5.

(she continued to outrank him from then on)

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

WTF are you going to do about it if they do?

How the fuck will they secede without fed approval? You think they can just say “Ok we seceded!”, then go about business as usual?

LoL, you’re the bitch that claims your marriage is fine because you refuse to sign the divorce papers. Meanwhile he’s off with someone else not giving a fuck.

Can’t answer the question, huh? That’s what I thought.

But you have me confused with someone else. Though, your personal attacks are pointless to the discussion either way.

Carry on, clown.

I can answer.

We go about our business and DARE FedGov to do something about it. They won't, sadly. And we walk without a single shot being fired.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

Anyone who wants to leave the country can get the fuck out. No “Berlin Wall” keeping you here.

Anyone who appreciates their U.S. citizenship can stay and use their citizenship rights to vote or participate in local, state or national politics to improve our laws and our Republic. As long as one doesn’t break the law here, all of us already have more political rights here ... than most places in the world.

Anybody who breaks the law to force their candidate on the rest of us after an election has been confirmed and certified, anyone who tries to break up our Republic via insurrection, attacking Congress, etc. ... they of course should be treated as traitors and criminals.

Those who say “the law” cannot prevent the breakup of a country whose people desperately want to break apart ... are of course correct.

But such break-ups are almost always extremely violent and destructive (unless all sides agree to separation). Even assuming that a majority of say, Texans, wanted to secede, what about the huge minority that did not? They would of course demand the Federal government protect their rights as U.S. Citizens. The result? Civil War. This is something genuine U.S. enemies would love to see.

In short, all this talk of unilateral secession is totally irresponsible. But then, what else is new? This is USMB!

Most of what you say is true but you need to realize that a large number of sane intelligent patriotic Americans believe that traitors have staged a coup by fixing the election and that the only responsible thing to do is to deal with that reality. The reality that the America we knew and loved is dead and will remain so unless we are able to find and implement a solution. You believe government (and the courts are indeed part of government) claims that the election was honest; we don't. I very much wish the courts would have stepped in and demanded an honest thorough and transparent investigation. Maybe that would have been acceptable to both sides. They didn't and now we are all well and truly screwed. 2021 promises to make 2020 the good ole days.

Thanks for the sincere tone of your comment. I do realize how much of our nation feels the way you describe. I haven’t any easy answers to resolving the mad cultural and political divides that Trump’s presidency has ... exacerbated. I think your point about trying to bridge the divide is important. But ask yourself: Would anything ever convince Donald Trump himself (and thus his most loyal supporters) that he was defeated legitimately? I think you know the answer to this.

My own hostility to Trump was never based just upon what he claimed he was in favor of, at least some of which I agreed with. But ask yourself: Would anything ever convince Donald Trump himself (and thus his most loyal supporters) that he was defeated legitimately? I think you know the answer to this.

I’ve been a “radical” since my youth, and I know what it means to fight the system. I expect little from “the Establishment” and the political class in general, and far less from the new crop of right populist politicians who now claim to oppose it.

To me none of this is new. I remember the Civil Rights Movement when southern African-Americans were mostly not even allowed to vote. I was active in the movement against the Vietnam War. Now there are new wars fought only with professional soldiers, and everybody can vote — but the craziness on all sides is still here. There is plenty of blame to go around, of course. Back in those days these was never just partisan “party” issues.

It seems to me that “Liberal capitalism” worldwide is struggling with profoundly “illiberal” nationalist movements, and Trump just represents a particularly crazy “American” version of this phenomenon. At the same time Americans are losing confidence in our own democratic and Republican institutions, partly because our nation’s once overwhelming supremacy internationally is disappearing, and with it some of our economic supremacy. Civil War or breaking up our country will only finish off our democracy and destroy our international pre-eminence altogether.

But I’m probably boring you with all this.
Sorry I couldn’t answer in a more satisfactory manner.

But ask yourself: Would anything ever convince Donald Trump himself (and thus his most loyal supporters) that he was defeated legitimately? I think you know the answer to this.
No, too little too late.

I also well remember the Civil Rights and "anti-war" movements and the violence associated with both. From my side of the fence it seemed that the Left deliberately sponsored and encouraged maximum violence and divisiveness. From my viewpoint the "anti-war" movement would have more accurately been described as the Anti-America movement. I was one of those soldiers you guys were calling "baby killers" spitting on and throwing dog shit at. I was drafted and my only intent was the serve and protect my Country. You guys were busy spreading communist propaganda while flying the flags of an enemy actively engaged in killing my friends and relatives while burning the flag we fought for in the streets. Jane Fonda John Kerry and the VVAW openly committed treason and were never held accountable. To my mind we are looking at 50+ years of deliberate divisiveness that have repeatedly resulted in violence injury and death. That makes it really really hard to take claims about Trump's "divisiveness" seriously.

My own hostility to Trump was never based just upon what he claimed he was in favor of, at least some of which I agreed with. It was his demagogy and divisiveness I opposed. I always suspected and feared Trump’s presidency would lead to just such a mad divide in society.

As noted above it appears to me the divide you speak of is certainly neither new nor Trump's "fault". It has long existed and been steadily growing for decades. At this point finger pointing serves no useful purpose.

At the same time Americans are losing confidence in our own democratic and Republican institutions, partly because our nation’s once overwhelming supremacy internationally is disappearing, and with it some of our economic supremacy. Civil War or breaking up our country will only finish off our democracy and destroy our international pre-eminence altogether.

I don't see that international supremacy has anything to do with the situation and would submit that many of us consider our democracy already lost. Otherwise I have to agree with your statement.

Thanks again for hearing me out & presenting your own views.

I would like to say, just to be clear, that I worked for our draftees by trying to get them removed from where they were sent by gutless and foolish politicians. I have no doubt your own intent was to serve and protect our country, though of course no Vietnamese ever came to the U.S. to bomb or kill.

I am proud of my own work in the movement, which did not at all resemble what you describe. But I cannot claim my efforts often rose to the level of the those who risked life and limb in the early days of the southern Civil Rights Movement. Perhaps another time we can exchange “war stories.”

I hope you and those you were close to got through that terrible war unhurt.

Nobody got through that war unhurt. The VA considers me 80% disabled as a result of my service. A quick bio of my service is here: Harold E. Keim: Remember

My mother and father were both there the same time you were. They met at the big MASH hospital in Dong Tam south of Saigon in 1969.

View attachment 452713

Mom was a MASH OR nurse - O2
Dad was transferred down from Saigon as a E5.

(she continued to outrank him from then on)

Most women just out rank you by saying I do. Your mom went the extra mile.

 

[9thIDdoc]

Anyone who wants to leave the country can get the fuck out. No “Berlin Wall” keeping you here.

Anyone who appreciates their U.S. citizenship can stay and use their citizenship rights to vote or participate in local, state or national politics to improve our laws and our Republic. As long as one doesn’t break the law here, all of us already have more political rights here ... than most places in the world.

Anybody who breaks the law to force their candidate on the rest of us after an election has been confirmed and certified, anyone who tries to break up our Republic via insurrection, attacking Congress, etc. ... they of course should be treated as traitors and criminals.

Those who say “the law” cannot prevent the breakup of a country whose people desperately want to break apart ... are of course correct.

But such break-ups are almost always extremely violent and destructive (unless all sides agree to separation). Even assuming that a majority of say, Texans, wanted to secede, what about the huge minority that did not? They would of course demand the Federal government protect their rights as U.S. Citizens. The result? Civil War. This is something genuine U.S. enemies would love to see.

In short, all this talk of unilateral secession is totally irresponsible. But then, what else is new? This is USMB!

Most of what you say is true but you need to realize that a large number of sane intelligent patriotic Americans believe that traitors have staged a coup by fixing the election and that the only responsible thing to do is to deal with that reality. The reality that the America we knew and loved is dead and will remain so unless we are able to find and implement a solution. You believe government (and the courts are indeed part of government) claims that the election was honest; we don't. I very much wish the courts would have stepped in and demanded an honest thorough and transparent investigation. Maybe that would have been acceptable to both sides. They didn't and now we are all well and truly screwed. 2021 promises to make 2020 the good ole days.

Thanks for the sincere tone of your comment. I do realize how much of our nation feels the way you describe. I haven’t any easy answers to resolving the mad cultural and political divides that Trump’s presidency has ... exacerbated. I think your point about trying to bridge the divide is important. But ask yourself: Would anything ever convince Donald Trump himself (and thus his most loyal supporters) that he was defeated legitimately? I think you know the answer to this.

My own hostility to Trump was never based just upon what he claimed he was in favor of, at least some of which I agreed with. But ask yourself: Would anything ever convince Donald Trump himself (and thus his most loyal supporters) that he was defeated legitimately? I think you know the answer to this.

I’ve been a “radical” since my youth, and I know what it means to fight the system. I expect little from “the Establishment” and the political class in general, and far less from the new crop of right populist politicians who now claim to oppose it.

To me none of this is new. I remember the Civil Rights Movement when southern African-Americans were mostly not even allowed to vote. I was active in the movement against the Vietnam War. Now there are new wars fought only with professional soldiers, and everybody can vote — but the craziness on all sides is still here. There is plenty of blame to go around, of course. Back in those days these was never just partisan “party” issues.

It seems to me that “Liberal capitalism” worldwide is struggling with profoundly “illiberal” nationalist movements, and Trump just represents a particularly crazy “American” version of this phenomenon. At the same time Americans are losing confidence in our own democratic and Republican institutions, partly because our nation’s once overwhelming supremacy internationally is disappearing, and with it some of our economic supremacy. Civil War or breaking up our country will only finish off our democracy and destroy our international pre-eminence altogether.

But I’m probably boring you with all this.
Sorry I couldn’t answer in a more satisfactory manner.

But ask yourself: Would anything ever convince Donald Trump himself (and thus his most loyal supporters) that he was defeated legitimately? I think you know the answer to this.
No, too little too late.

I also well remember the Civil Rights and "anti-war" movements and the violence associated with both. From my side of the fence it seemed that the Left deliberately sponsored and encouraged maximum violence and divisiveness. From my viewpoint the "anti-war" movement would have more accurately been described as the Anti-America movement. I was one of those soldiers you guys were calling "baby killers" spitting on and throwing dog shit at. I was drafted and my only intent was the serve and protect my Country. You guys were busy spreading communist propaganda while flying the flags of an enemy actively engaged in killing my friends and relatives while burning the flag we fought for in the streets. Jane Fonda John Kerry and the VVAW openly committed treason and were never held accountable. To my mind we are looking at 50+ years of deliberate divisiveness that have repeatedly resulted in violence injury and death. That makes it really really hard to take claims about Trump's "divisiveness" seriously.

My own hostility to Trump was never based just upon what he claimed he was in favor of, at least some of which I agreed with. It was his demagogy and divisiveness I opposed. I always suspected and feared Trump’s presidency would lead to just such a mad divide in society.

As noted above it appears to me the divide you speak of is certainly neither new nor Trump's "fault". It has long existed and been steadily growing for decades. At this point finger pointing serves no useful purpose.

At the same time Americans are losing confidence in our own democratic and Republican institutions, partly because our nation’s once overwhelming supremacy internationally is disappearing, and with it some of our economic supremacy. Civil War or breaking up our country will only finish off our democracy and destroy our international pre-eminence altogether.

I don't see that international supremacy has anything to do with the situation and would submit that many of us consider our democracy already lost. Otherwise I have to agree with your statement.

Thanks again for hearing me out & presenting your own views.

I would like to say, just to be clear, that I worked for our draftees by trying to get them removed from where they were sent by gutless and foolish politicians. I have no doubt your own intent was to serve and protect our country, though of course no Vietnamese ever came to the U.S. to bomb or kill.

I am proud of my own work in the movement, which did not at all resemble what you describe. But I cannot claim my efforts often rose to the level of the those who risked life and limb in the early days of the southern Civil Rights Movement. Perhaps another time we can exchange “war stories.”

I hope you and those you were close to got through that terrible war unhurt.

Nobody got through that war unhurt. The VA considers me 80% disabled as a result of my service. A quick bio of my service is here: Harold E. Keim: Remember

My mother and father were both there the same time you were. They met at the big MASH hospital in Dong Tam south of Saigon in 1969.

View attachment 452713

Mom was a MASH OR nurse - O2
Dad was transferred down from Saigon as a E5.

(she continued to outrank him from then on)

 

[ElmerMudd]

If you see posts in rinky dinky right wing message boards claiming that Texas voted to secede, dismiss the fake news.
A state cannot secede. There are zero ways to do it. They can't pass a law to secede.. They can do nothing.

Yet even before Texas formally rejoined the nation, the U.S. Supreme Court declared that secession was not legal, and thus, even during the rebellion, Texas continued to be a state. In the 1869 case Texas v. White, the Court held that individual states could not unilaterally secede from the Union and that the acts of the insurgent Texas Legislature — even if ratified by a majority of Texans — were "absolutely null."

If there were any doubt remaining after that, late Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia set it to rest more than a century later with his response to a letter from a screenwriter in 2006 asking if there is a legal basis for secession.

“The answer is clear,” Scalia wrote. “If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, 'one Nation, indivisible.')”

Texplainer: If Brexit Can Happen, Can Texit?

Hey, Texplainer: Britain voted to leave the European Union. Can Texas secede from the United States?

www.texastribune.org

Ok, Texas, legally, cannot secede. But can we kick their sorry ass out of the United States?

 

[wamose]

If Texas wants to become part of Mexico, who are we to stand in their way?

Then again, maybe Mexico will want to become a part of Texas. That would be interesting.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Personally I think we should annex Mexico. make each of their States a Territory and when they control the cartels and have a reasonable level of Government make each territory a State.

 

[bripat9643]

If you see posts in rinky dinky right wing message boards claiming that Texas voted to secede, dismiss the fake news.
A state cannot secede. There are zero ways to do it. They can't pass a law to secede.. They can do nothing.

Yet even before Texas formally rejoined the nation, the U.S. Supreme Court declared that secession was not legal, and thus, even during the rebellion, Texas continued to be a state. In the 1869 case Texas v. White, the Court held that individual states could not unilaterally secede from the Union and that the acts of the insurgent Texas Legislature — even if ratified by a majority of Texans — were "absolutely null."

If there were any doubt remaining after that, late Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia set it to rest more than a century later with his response to a letter from a screenwriter in 2006 asking if there is a legal basis for secession.

“The answer is clear,” Scalia wrote. “If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, 'one Nation, indivisible.')”

Texplainer: If Brexit Can Happen, Can Texit?

Hey, Texplainer: Britain voted to leave the European Union. Can Texas secede from the United States?

www.texastribune.org

Ok, Texas, legally, cannot secede. But can we kick their sorry ass out of the United States?

That's what the federal government did after it won the Civil War.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Anyone who wants to leave the country can get the fuck out. No “Berlin Wall” keeping you here.

Anyone who appreciates their U.S. citizenship can stay and use their citizenship rights to vote or participate in local, state or national politics to improve our laws and our Republic. As long as one doesn’t break the law here, all of us already have more political rights here ... than most places in the world.

Anybody who breaks the law to force their candidate on the rest of us after an election has been confirmed and certified, anyone who tries to break up our Republic via insurrection, attacking Congress, etc. ... they of course should be treated as traitors and criminals.

Those who say “the law” cannot prevent the breakup of a country whose people desperately want to break apart ... are of course correct.

But such break-ups are almost always extremely violent and destructive (unless all sides agree to separation). Even assuming that a majority of say, Texans, wanted to secede, what about the huge minority that did not? They would of course demand the Federal government protect their rights as U.S. Citizens. The result? Civil War. This is something genuine U.S. enemies would love to see.

In short, all this talk of unilateral secession is totally irresponsible. But then, what else is new? This is USMB!

Most of what you say is true but you need to realize that a large number of sane intelligent patriotic Americans believe that traitors have staged a coup by fixing the election and that the only responsible thing to do is to deal with that reality. The reality that the America we knew and loved is dead and will remain so unless we are able to find and implement a solution. You believe government (and the courts are indeed part of government) claims that the election was honest; we don't. I very much wish the courts would have stepped in and demanded an honest thorough and transparent investigation. Maybe that would have been acceptable to both sides. They didn't and now we are all well and truly screwed. 2021 promises to make 2020 the good ole days.

Thanks for the sincere tone of your comment. I do realize how much of our nation feels the way you describe. I haven’t any easy answers to resolving the mad cultural and political divides that Trump’s presidency has ... exacerbated. I think your point about trying to bridge the divide is important. But ask yourself: Would anything ever convince Donald Trump himself (and thus his most loyal supporters) that he was defeated legitimately? I think you know the answer to this.

My own hostility to Trump was never based just upon what he claimed he was in favor of, at least some of which I agreed with. But ask yourself: Would anything ever convince Donald Trump himself (and thus his most loyal supporters) that he was defeated legitimately? I think you know the answer to this.

I’ve been a “radical” since my youth, and I know what it means to fight the system. I expect little from “the Establishment” and the political class in general, and far less from the new crop of right populist politicians who now claim to oppose it.

To me none of this is new. I remember the Civil Rights Movement when southern African-Americans were mostly not even allowed to vote. I was active in the movement against the Vietnam War. Now there are new wars fought only with professional soldiers, and everybody can vote — but the craziness on all sides is still here. There is plenty of blame to go around, of course. Back in those days these was never just partisan “party” issues.

It seems to me that “Liberal capitalism” worldwide is struggling with profoundly “illiberal” nationalist movements, and Trump just represents a particularly crazy “American” version of this phenomenon. At the same time Americans are losing confidence in our own democratic and Republican institutions, partly because our nation’s once overwhelming supremacy internationally is disappearing, and with it some of our economic supremacy. Civil War or breaking up our country will only finish off our democracy and destroy our international pre-eminence altogether.

But I’m probably boring you with all this.
Sorry I couldn’t answer in a more satisfactory manner.

But ask yourself: Would anything ever convince Donald Trump himself (and thus his most loyal supporters) that he was defeated legitimately? I think you know the answer to this.
No, too little too late.

I also well remember the Civil Rights and "anti-war" movements and the violence associated with both. From my side of the fence it seemed that the Left deliberately sponsored and encouraged maximum violence and divisiveness. From my viewpoint the "anti-war" movement would have more accurately been described as the Anti-America movement. I was one of those soldiers you guys were calling "baby killers" spitting on and throwing dog shit at. I was drafted and my only intent was the serve and protect my Country. You guys were busy spreading communist propaganda while flying the flags of an enemy actively engaged in killing my friends and relatives while burning the flag we fought for in the streets. Jane Fonda John Kerry and the VVAW openly committed treason and were never held accountable. To my mind we are looking at 50+ years of deliberate divisiveness that have repeatedly resulted in violence injury and death. That makes it really really hard to take claims about Trump's "divisiveness" seriously.

My own hostility to Trump was never based just upon what he claimed he was in favor of, at least some of which I agreed with. It was his demagogy and divisiveness I opposed. I always suspected and feared Trump’s presidency would lead to just such a mad divide in society.

As noted above it appears to me the divide you speak of is certainly neither new nor Trump's "fault". It has long existed and been steadily growing for decades. At this point finger pointing serves no useful purpose.

At the same time Americans are losing confidence in our own democratic and Republican institutions, partly because our nation’s once overwhelming supremacy internationally is disappearing, and with it some of our economic supremacy. Civil War or breaking up our country will only finish off our democracy and destroy our international pre-eminence altogether.

I don't see that international supremacy has anything to do with the situation and would submit that many of us consider our democracy already lost. Otherwise I have to agree with your statement.

Thanks again for hearing me out & presenting your own views.

I would like to say, just to be clear, that I worked for our draftees by trying to get them removed from where they were sent by gutless and foolish politicians. I have no doubt your own intent was to serve and protect our country, though of course no Vietnamese ever came to the U.S. to bomb or kill.

I am proud of my own work in the movement, which did not at all resemble what you describe. But I cannot claim my efforts often rose to the level of the those who risked life and limb in the early days of the southern Civil Rights Movement. Perhaps another time we can exchange “war stories.”

I hope you and those you were close to got through that terrible war unhurt.

Nobody got through that war unhurt. The VA considers me 80% disabled as a result of my service. A quick bio of my service is here: Harold E. Keim: Remember

My mother and father were both there the same time you were. They met at the big MASH hospital in Dong Tam south of Saigon in 1969.

View attachment 452713

Mom was a MASH OR nurse - O2
Dad was transferred down from Saigon as a E5.

(she continued to outrank him from then on)

View attachment 452737

My dad would have been one of those guys carrying the wounded. Earned the Bronze Star with a "V" on it, but would never talk about it.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

If you see posts in rinky dinky right wing message boards claiming that Texas voted to secede, dismiss the fake news.
A state cannot secede. There are zero ways to do it. They can't pass a law to secede.. They can do nothing.

Yet even before Texas formally rejoined the nation, the U.S. Supreme Court declared that secession was not legal, and thus, even during the rebellion, Texas continued to be a state. In the 1869 case Texas v. White, the Court held that individual states could not unilaterally secede from the Union and that the acts of the insurgent Texas Legislature — even if ratified by a majority of Texans — were "absolutely null."

If there were any doubt remaining after that, late Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia set it to rest more than a century later with his response to a letter from a screenwriter in 2006 asking if there is a legal basis for secession.

“The answer is clear,” Scalia wrote. “If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, 'one Nation, indivisible.')”

Texplainer: If Brexit Can Happen, Can Texit?

Hey, Texplainer: Britain voted to leave the European Union. Can Texas secede from the United States?

www.texastribune.org

Ok, Texas, legally, cannot secede. But can we kick their sorry ass out of the United States?

Oh, please don't throw me in the briar patch. PLEASE!!!

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

So, since many of you think that leaving the union is illegal (it's not) what action would any of you want or expect your government to take, should Texas decide to secede?

 

[9thIDdoc]

Anyone who wants to leave the country can get the fuck out. No “Berlin Wall” keeping you here.

Anyone who appreciates their U.S. citizenship can stay and use their citizenship rights to vote or participate in local, state or national politics to improve our laws and our Republic. As long as one doesn’t break the law here, all of us already have more political rights here ... than most places in the world.

Anybody who breaks the law to force their candidate on the rest of us after an election has been confirmed and certified, anyone who tries to break up our Republic via insurrection, attacking Congress, etc. ... they of course should be treated as traitors and criminals.

Those who say “the law” cannot prevent the breakup of a country whose people desperately want to break apart ... are of course correct.

But such break-ups are almost always extremely violent and destructive (unless all sides agree to separation). Even assuming that a majority of say, Texans, wanted to secede, what about the huge minority that did not? They would of course demand the Federal government protect their rights as U.S. Citizens. The result? Civil War. This is something genuine U.S. enemies would love to see.

In short, all this talk of unilateral secession is totally irresponsible. But then, what else is new? This is USMB!

Most of what you say is true but you need to realize that a large number of sane intelligent patriotic Americans believe that traitors have staged a coup by fixing the election and that the only responsible thing to do is to deal with that reality. The reality that the America we knew and loved is dead and will remain so unless we are able to find and implement a solution. You believe government (and the courts are indeed part of government) claims that the election was honest; we don't. I very much wish the courts would have stepped in and demanded an honest thorough and transparent investigation. Maybe that would have been acceptable to both sides. They didn't and now we are all well and truly screwed. 2021 promises to make 2020 the good ole days.

Thanks for the sincere tone of your comment. I do realize how much of our nation feels the way you describe. I haven’t any easy answers to resolving the mad cultural and political divides that Trump’s presidency has ... exacerbated. I think your point about trying to bridge the divide is important. But ask yourself: Would anything ever convince Donald Trump himself (and thus his most loyal supporters) that he was defeated legitimately? I think you know the answer to this.

My own hostility to Trump was never based just upon what he claimed he was in favor of, at least some of which I agreed with. But ask yourself: Would anything ever convince Donald Trump himself (and thus his most loyal supporters) that he was defeated legitimately? I think you know the answer to this.

I’ve been a “radical” since my youth, and I know what it means to fight the system. I expect little from “the Establishment” and the political class in general, and far less from the new crop of right populist politicians who now claim to oppose it.

To me none of this is new. I remember the Civil Rights Movement when southern African-Americans were mostly not even allowed to vote. I was active in the movement against the Vietnam War. Now there are new wars fought only with professional soldiers, and everybody can vote — but the craziness on all sides is still here. There is plenty of blame to go around, of course. Back in those days these was never just partisan “party” issues.

It seems to me that “Liberal capitalism” worldwide is struggling with profoundly “illiberal” nationalist movements, and Trump just represents a particularly crazy “American” version of this phenomenon. At the same time Americans are losing confidence in our own democratic and Republican institutions, partly because our nation’s once overwhelming supremacy internationally is disappearing, and with it some of our economic supremacy. Civil War or breaking up our country will only finish off our democracy and destroy our international pre-eminence altogether.

But I’m probably boring you with all this.
Sorry I couldn’t answer in a more satisfactory manner.

But ask yourself: Would anything ever convince Donald Trump himself (and thus his most loyal supporters) that he was defeated legitimately? I think you know the answer to this.
No, too little too late.

I also well remember the Civil Rights and "anti-war" movements and the violence associated with both. From my side of the fence it seemed that the Left deliberately sponsored and encouraged maximum violence and divisiveness. From my viewpoint the "anti-war" movement would have more accurately been described as the Anti-America movement. I was one of those soldiers you guys were calling "baby killers" spitting on and throwing dog shit at. I was drafted and my only intent was the serve and protect my Country. You guys were busy spreading communist propaganda while flying the flags of an enemy actively engaged in killing my friends and relatives while burning the flag we fought for in the streets. Jane Fonda John Kerry and the VVAW openly committed treason and were never held accountable. To my mind we are looking at 50+ years of deliberate divisiveness that have repeatedly resulted in violence injury and death. That makes it really really hard to take claims about Trump's "divisiveness" seriously.

My own hostility to Trump was never based just upon what he claimed he was in favor of, at least some of which I agreed with. It was his demagogy and divisiveness I opposed. I always suspected and feared Trump’s presidency would lead to just such a mad divide in society.

As noted above it appears to me the divide you speak of is certainly neither new nor Trump's "fault". It has long existed and been steadily growing for decades. At this point finger pointing serves no useful purpose.

At the same time Americans are losing confidence in our own democratic and Republican institutions, partly because our nation’s once overwhelming supremacy internationally is disappearing, and with it some of our economic supremacy. Civil War or breaking up our country will only finish off our democracy and destroy our international pre-eminence altogether.

I don't see that international supremacy has anything to do with the situation and would submit that many of us consider our democracy already lost. Otherwise I have to agree with your statement.

Thanks again for hearing me out & presenting your own views.

I would like to say, just to be clear, that I worked for our draftees by trying to get them removed from where they were sent by gutless and foolish politicians. I have no doubt your own intent was to serve and protect our country, though of course no Vietnamese ever came to the U.S. to bomb or kill.

I am proud of my own work in the movement, which did not at all resemble what you describe. But I cannot claim my efforts often rose to the level of the those who risked life and limb in the early days of the southern Civil Rights Movement. Perhaps another time we can exchange “war stories.”

I hope you and those you were close to got through that terrible war unhurt.

Nobody got through that war unhurt. The VA considers me 80% disabled as a result of my service. A quick bio of my service is here: Harold E. Keim: Remember

My mother and father were both there the same time you were. They met at the big MASH hospital in Dong Tam south of Saigon in 1969.

View attachment 452713

Mom was a MASH OR nurse - O2
Dad was transferred down from Saigon as a E5.

(she continued to outrank him from then on)

View attachment 452737

My dad would have been one of those guys carrying the wounded. Earned the Bronze Star with a "V" on it, but would never talk about it.

No doubt. Actually when somebody got hit it was hard to stop most everybody from dropping everything to try to help. It was a fairly common tactic for our enemy to shoot a man's legs out from under them then use the wounded man as bait to draw others into a killing zone. One soldier (an unarmed conscientious objector Chaplin) was posthumously awarded a MOH for attempting to recover a wounded man lying within a very few yards of an enemy machinegun.

 

[Brain357]

And then the great country of Texas was crippled by a little snow...

 

[9thIDdoc]

And then the great country of Texas was crippled by a little snow...

Actually it was crippled by the insistence they convert to "green power".

 

[Kondor3]

WTF are you going to do about it if they do?...

Apply immediate and overwhelming military force.

 

[Brain357]

And then the great country of Texas was crippled by a little snow...

Actually it was crippled by the insistence they convert to "green power".

Just a little snow....

 

[jc456]

Says a guy on a message board. Folks, can’t make it up

 

[jc456]

WTF are you going to do about it if they do?...

Apply immediate and overwhelming military force.

Wait, how could you do that?

 

[BertramN]

If you see posts in rinky dinky right wing message boards claiming that Texas voted to secede, dismiss the fake news.
A state cannot secede. There are zero ways to do it. They can't pass a law to secede.. They can do nothing.

Yet even before Texas formally rejoined the nation, the U.S. Supreme Court declared that secession was not legal, and thus, even during the rebellion, Texas continued to be a state. In the 1869 case Texas v. White, the Court held that individual states could not unilaterally secede from the Union and that the acts of the insurgent Texas Legislature — even if ratified by a majority of Texans — were "absolutely null."

If there were any doubt remaining after that, late Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia set it to rest more than a century later with his response to a letter from a screenwriter in 2006 asking if there is a legal basis for secession.

“The answer is clear,” Scalia wrote. “If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, 'one Nation, indivisible.')”

Texplainer: If Brexit Can Happen, Can Texit?

Hey, Texplainer: Britain voted to leave the European Union. Can Texas secede from the United States?

www.texastribune.org

There are many USMB educated law scholars that will, and have contradicted you in this thread. Who should they trust, liberal law professors with decades of knowledge, or, their trump Nazi brethren that insist they know more about everything than the experts?


.

 

[Fiero425]

And then the great country of Texas was crippled by a little snow...

Actually it was crippled by the insistence they convert to "green power."

It's Karma from when they fk'd over California back in the 90's selling them electric power! We had to endure rolling brown & blackouts in the middle of summer! Luckily I lived on a grid with a hospital close by so I wasn't inconvenienced too much, but others suffered no doubt about it! I'm still PO'd by electric bills inflated by those jerks in the panhandle! Let them go!