Texas Executed An Innocent Father

[Disir]

The officials responsible for willfully suppressing evidence in this capital case should now stand trial for their own lives.

First degree murder... conspiracy... etc, etc., etc.

And, along with the death sentence for themselves, when found guilty, they can toss-in forfeiture of pay and pension and benefits, back-dated to the date of the commission of the crime, and the seizure of sufficient assets to satisfy the financial elements of the sentence.

Crushing their souls prior to execution with the despairing knowledge that they've ruined their families, as well.

That should send a very clear message to those types of Godless, soulless bastards who might otherwise consider such mischief.

As long as the death penalty is there, and in such an instance where authorities mis-use the system, the posted proposal seems just.
There are fundamental problems with the death penalty, both pro and con.

The COST factor and the REVENGE factor are not solved through life imprisonment, and, there is always the chance that some flake bleeding heart will parole them in future.

You are correct that there is always a chance of misuse of power and that there is always a chance of mistaken conviction.

That is an excellent argument for better Quality Control and Monitoring and Review of the entire process, built into the judicial process, in order to avoid such mistakes.

It is an excellent argument for better Quality Control, NOT an end to Capital Punishment.

Most folks understand that you can never take-back an execution, once completed... shit happens.

Most folks also understand the maxim: "Better that a hundred guilty men go free than than one innocent man be convicted."

It's just that - within the domain of heinous crimes - that old maxim just doesn't pass the Sniff Test, in the Real World.

If we shoot or hang or fry or gas or inject 99 murderers, and then make the mistake of doing the same to 1 innocent man, that's a fantastic batting average.

The life of that 1 person is not enough to offset the benefits (cost, revenge) of killing the other 99.

Shit happens.

I agree wholeheartedly with any proposal to create fresh standards and processes and reviewing and monitoring for capital cases that prevents the vast majority of such incidents, and which would also greatly accelerate the appeals process, so that murderers, etc., are waiting 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 years for execution, rather than 10 or 20 or 30 or more.

I do not agree that capital punishment should be abolished.

Shit happens until it's one of yours or you yourself.

Yep... ya pays yer money and takes yer chances.

That's why it's so important to do everything that we can to minimize the risk of that happening.

As things stand now, such Quality Control is oftentimes insufficient to prevent such mistakes OR such intentional and malignant mischief on the part of officials.

They say that the Devil is in the details, and there are a thousand-and-one ways to construct a series of Reforms and Safeguards for such matters.

All one needs is a little imagination and an understanding of the need for secondary or tertiary review by outside-the-jurisdiction non-stakeholders - a peer review process - in order to devise vastly better standards and quality control measures, which can also double as a means to accelerate the entire review and appeals process.

If we kill 99 Bad Guys and accidentally kill 1 Good Guy, that's an Acceptable Loss Ratio.

The Law is meant to be impersonal and cold and logical in such matters.

Touchy-feely - even in connection with ourselves or our own people - doesn't really enter into it.

But, of course, it has to be administered by men and women of backbone.

Appeals are looking for procedural error. That is all. Circumstantial evidence, jail house snitches, faulty eye-witness testimony are all touchy feely. They aren't retrying the case.

 

[Kondor3]

The officials responsible for willfully suppressing evidence in this capital case should now stand trial for their own lives.

First degree murder... conspiracy... etc, etc., etc.

And, along with the death sentence for themselves, when found guilty, they can toss-in forfeiture of pay and pension and benefits, back-dated to the date of the commission of the crime, and the seizure of sufficient assets to satisfy the financial elements of the sentence.

Crushing their souls prior to execution with the despairing knowledge that they've ruined their families, as well.

That should send a very clear message to those types of Godless, soulless bastards who might otherwise consider such mischief.

As long as the death penalty is there, and in such an instance where authorities mis-use the system, the posted proposal seems just.
There are fundamental problems with the death penalty, both pro and con.

The COST factor and the REVENGE factor are not solved through life imprisonment, and, there is always the chance that some flake bleeding heart will parole them in future.

You are correct that there is always a chance of misuse of power and that there is always a chance of mistaken conviction.

That is an excellent argument for better Quality Control and Monitoring and Review of the entire process, built into the judicial process, in order to avoid such mistakes.

It is an excellent argument for better Quality Control, NOT an end to Capital Punishment.

Most folks understand that you can never take-back an execution, once completed... shit happens.

Most folks also understand the maxim: "Better that a hundred guilty men go free than than one innocent man be convicted."

It's just that - within the domain of heinous crimes - that old maxim just doesn't pass the Sniff Test, in the Real World.

If we shoot or hang or fry or gas or inject 99 murderers, and then make the mistake of doing the same to 1 innocent man, that's a fantastic batting average.

The life of that 1 person is not enough to offset the benefits (cost, revenge) of killing the other 99.

Shit happens.

I agree wholeheartedly with any proposal to create fresh standards and processes and reviewing and monitoring for capital cases that prevents the vast majority of such incidents, and which would also greatly accelerate the appeals process, so that murderers, etc., are waiting 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 years for execution, rather than 10 or 20 or 30 or more.

I do not agree that capital punishment should be abolished.

Well, " IF " you were that "one person" out of a hundred, as you have stated, I doubt very seriously that you'd still feel the same as your comment implies. Can you imagine yourself totally innocent of any crime, yet in prison serving time on death row? Would you still consider yourself as collateral damage of the system you believe in? It's easy for you to pass-off that one person who is innocent, yet serving time, as merely collateral damage in order to ensure the other 99% pay the price for their crimes. Ever tried putting yourself on death row for a crime you didn't commit? I thought so.

Touchy-Feely is not part of the equation.

 

[Kondor3]

The officials responsible for willfully suppressing evidence in this capital case should now stand trial for their own lives.

First degree murder... conspiracy... etc, etc., etc.

And, along with the death sentence for themselves, when found guilty, they can toss-in forfeiture of pay and pension and benefits, back-dated to the date of the commission of the crime, and the seizure of sufficient assets to satisfy the financial elements of the sentence.

Crushing their souls prior to execution with the despairing knowledge that they've ruined their families, as well.

That should send a very clear message to those types of Godless, soulless bastards who might otherwise consider such mischief.

As long as the death penalty is there, and in such an instance where authorities mis-use the system, the posted proposal seems just.
There are fundamental problems with the death penalty, both pro and con.

The COST factor and the REVENGE factor are not solved through life imprisonment, and, there is always the chance that some flake bleeding heart will parole them in future.

You are correct that there is always a chance of misuse of power and that there is always a chance of mistaken conviction.

That is an excellent argument for better Quality Control and Monitoring and Review of the entire process, built into the judicial process, in order to avoid such mistakes.

It is an excellent argument for better Quality Control, NOT an end to Capital Punishment.

Most folks understand that you can never take-back an execution, once completed... shit happens.

Most folks also understand the maxim: "Better that a hundred guilty men go free than than one innocent man be convicted."

It's just that - within the domain of heinous crimes - that old maxim just doesn't pass the Sniff Test, in the Real World.

If we shoot or hang or fry or gas or inject 99 murderers, and then make the mistake of doing the same to 1 innocent man, that's a fantastic batting average.

The life of that 1 person is not enough to offset the benefits (cost, revenge) of killing the other 99.

Shit happens.

I agree wholeheartedly with any proposal to create fresh standards and processes and reviewing and monitoring for capital cases that prevents the vast majority of such incidents, and which would also greatly accelerate the appeals process, so that murderers, etc., are waiting 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 years for execution, rather than 10 or 20 or 30 or more.

I do not agree that capital punishment should be abolished.

Shit happens until it's one of yours or you yourself.

Yep... ya pays yer money and takes yer chances.

That's why it's so important to do everything that we can to minimize the risk of that happening.

As things stand now, such Quality Control is oftentimes insufficient to prevent such mistakes OR such intentional and malignant mischief on the part of officials.

They say that the Devil is in the details, and there are a thousand-and-one ways to construct a series of Reforms and Safeguards for such matters.

All one needs is a little imagination and an understanding of the need for secondary or tertiary review by outside-the-jurisdiction non-stakeholders - a peer review process - in order to devise vastly better standards and quality control measures, which can also double as a means to accelerate the entire review and appeals process.

If we kill 99 Bad Guys and accidentally kill 1 Good Guy, that's an Acceptable Loss Ratio.

The Law is meant to be impersonal and cold and logical in such matters.

Touchy-feely - even in connection with ourselves or our own people - doesn't really enter into it.

But, of course, it has to be administered by men and women of backbone.

Appeals are looking for procedural error. That is all. Circumstantial evidence, jail house snitches, faulty eye-witness testimony are all touchy feely. They aren't retrying the case.

When I say Touchy-Feely, I mean exactly what it says.

I was not saying that the Appeals Process reviews the touchy-feely components of the case.

I was saying that how some of us FEEL about capital punishment has no bearing upon The Law nor its relative merits.

 

[Disir]

As long as the death penalty is there, and in such an instance where authorities mis-use the system, the posted proposal seems just.
There are fundamental problems with the death penalty, both pro and con.

The COST factor and the REVENGE factor are not solved through life imprisonment, and, there is always the chance that some flake bleeding heart will parole them in future.

You are correct that there is always a chance of misuse of power and that there is always a chance of mistaken conviction.

That is an excellent argument for better Quality Control and Monitoring and Review of the entire process, built into the judicial process, in order to avoid such mistakes.

It is an excellent argument for better Quality Control, NOT an end to Capital Punishment.

Most folks understand that you can never take-back an execution, once completed... shit happens.

Most folks also understand the maxim: "Better that a hundred guilty men go free than than one innocent man be convicted."

It's just that - within the domain of heinous crimes - that old maxim just doesn't pass the Sniff Test, in the Real World.

If we shoot or hang or fry or gas or inject 99 murderers, and then make the mistake of doing the same to 1 innocent man, that's a fantastic batting average.

The life of that 1 person is not enough to offset the benefits (cost, revenge) of killing the other 99.

Shit happens.

I agree wholeheartedly with any proposal to create fresh standards and processes and reviewing and monitoring for capital cases that prevents the vast majority of such incidents, and which would also greatly accelerate the appeals process, so that murderers, etc., are waiting 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 years for execution, rather than 10 or 20 or 30 or more.

I do not agree that capital punishment should be abolished.

Shit happens until it's one of yours or you yourself.

Yep... ya pays yer money and takes yer chances.

That's why it's so important to do everything that we can to minimize the risk of that happening.

As things stand now, such Quality Control is oftentimes insufficient to prevent such mistakes OR such intentional and malignant mischief on the part of officials.

They say that the Devil is in the details, and there are a thousand-and-one ways to construct a series of Reforms and Safeguards for such matters.

All one needs is a little imagination and an understanding of the need for secondary or tertiary review by outside-the-jurisdiction non-stakeholders - a peer review process - in order to devise vastly better standards and quality control measures, which can also double as a means to accelerate the entire review and appeals process.

If we kill 99 Bad Guys and accidentally kill 1 Good Guy, that's an Acceptable Loss Ratio.

The Law is meant to be impersonal and cold and logical in such matters.

Touchy-feely - even in connection with ourselves or our own people - doesn't really enter into it.

But, of course, it has to be administered by men and women of backbone.

Appeals are looking for procedural error. That is all. Circumstantial evidence, jail house snitches, faulty eye-witness testimony are all touchy feely. They aren't retrying the case.

When I say Touchy-Feely, I mean exactly what it says.

I was not saying that the Appeals Process reviews the touchy-feely components of the case.

I was saying that how some of us FEEL about capital punishment has no bearing upon The Law nor its relative merits.

I know what you were saying. I am also watching you become touchy feely by denying the evidence that shows this is an unjust system because you feel that this is a just outcome.

 

[JoeB131]

"NO reason to lie"? Do you know her personally? Do you know anything about her other than what has been made public concerning this case? How long have you known her? How many long and personal conversations have the two of you had over the years? Were the two of you neighbors? Did the two of you work for the same company for years and became very close friends? Exactly what do you know about this lady? Or, you are just assuming that she has no reason(s) to lie about hearing her husband say that he committed the crime? Which is it?

Guy, by that logic, we shouldn't lock up anyone unless we have film of them doing the crime.

It strikes me that if his wife said he was guilty, the cops said he was guilty, the arson investigator said he was guilty, a jury said he was guilty, and all the appeal courts said he was guilty...

Oh, yeah, and his defense attorney says he thinks his client did it.

Defense Lawyer Says Executed Client Was Guilty in Texas Arson



He was probably guilty.

This is a guy who had a long criminal record, who beat his pregnant wife, who screamed obscentities at her when he was in the death chamber.

 

[Kondor3]

As long as the death penalty is there, and in such an instance where authorities mis-use the system, the posted proposal seems just.
There are fundamental problems with the death penalty, both pro and con.

The COST factor and the REVENGE factor are not solved through life imprisonment, and, there is always the chance that some flake bleeding heart will parole them in future.

You are correct that there is always a chance of misuse of power and that there is always a chance of mistaken conviction.

That is an excellent argument for better Quality Control and Monitoring and Review of the entire process, built into the judicial process, in order to avoid such mistakes.

It is an excellent argument for better Quality Control, NOT an end to Capital Punishment.

Most folks understand that you can never take-back an execution, once completed... shit happens.

Most folks also understand the maxim: "Better that a hundred guilty men go free than than one innocent man be convicted."

It's just that - within the domain of heinous crimes - that old maxim just doesn't pass the Sniff Test, in the Real World.

If we shoot or hang or fry or gas or inject 99 murderers, and then make the mistake of doing the same to 1 innocent man, that's a fantastic batting average.

The life of that 1 person is not enough to offset the benefits (cost, revenge) of killing the other 99.

Shit happens.

I agree wholeheartedly with any proposal to create fresh standards and processes and reviewing and monitoring for capital cases that prevents the vast majority of such incidents, and which would also greatly accelerate the appeals process, so that murderers, etc., are waiting 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 years for execution, rather than 10 or 20 or 30 or more.

I do not agree that capital punishment should be abolished.

Shit happens until it's one of yours or you yourself.

AMEN !!! .... Absolutely correct ............ I totally agree 110%...................... It's so easy for others to accept our system of injustice when they're not the victim.

We are talking about matters of Law.

Touch-Feely really doesn't enter into it.

Fair enough. The "LAW" says innocent until proven guilty. Circumstantial cases are not based on "PROOF". They are based on "gut feelings", "could've been", "might have been", and the ability of a smooth talking silvered tongued prosecutor to convince a jury.

Agreed.

Would that not be part of any Reform Movement in connection with Capital Punishment?

To take circumstantial evidence off the table as deciding factors and to monitor and review all death sentences (and every aspect of the law enforcement and judicial processes that led to them) to ensure that such convictions and sentences all met the very same (post-reforms) Standards?

I have zero problem with the idea of adding a Peer Review (outside the jurisdiction in question) component to Capital Cases, which would avoid most occasional mistakes.

Or some-such Quality Control measures, involving independent and in-depth review and affirmation or rejection.

 

[Kondor3]

The COST factor and the REVENGE factor are not solved through life imprisonment, and, there is always the chance that some flake bleeding heart will parole them in future.

You are correct that there is always a chance of misuse of power and that there is always a chance of mistaken conviction.

That is an excellent argument for better Quality Control and Monitoring and Review of the entire process, built into the judicial process, in order to avoid such mistakes.

It is an excellent argument for better Quality Control, NOT an end to Capital Punishment.

Most folks understand that you can never take-back an execution, once completed... shit happens.

Most folks also understand the maxim: "Better that a hundred guilty men go free than than one innocent man be convicted."

It's just that - within the domain of heinous crimes - that old maxim just doesn't pass the Sniff Test, in the Real World.

If we shoot or hang or fry or gas or inject 99 murderers, and then make the mistake of doing the same to 1 innocent man, that's a fantastic batting average.

The life of that 1 person is not enough to offset the benefits (cost, revenge) of killing the other 99.

Shit happens.

I agree wholeheartedly with any proposal to create fresh standards and processes and reviewing and monitoring for capital cases that prevents the vast majority of such incidents, and which would also greatly accelerate the appeals process, so that murderers, etc., are waiting 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 years for execution, rather than 10 or 20 or 30 or more.

I do not agree that capital punishment should be abolished.

Shit happens until it's one of yours or you yourself.

Yep... ya pays yer money and takes yer chances.

That's why it's so important to do everything that we can to minimize the risk of that happening.

As things stand now, such Quality Control is oftentimes insufficient to prevent such mistakes OR such intentional and malignant mischief on the part of officials.

They say that the Devil is in the details, and there are a thousand-and-one ways to construct a series of Reforms and Safeguards for such matters.

All one needs is a little imagination and an understanding of the need for secondary or tertiary review by outside-the-jurisdiction non-stakeholders - a peer review process - in order to devise vastly better standards and quality control measures, which can also double as a means to accelerate the entire review and appeals process.

If we kill 99 Bad Guys and accidentally kill 1 Good Guy, that's an Acceptable Loss Ratio.

The Law is meant to be impersonal and cold and logical in such matters.

Touchy-feely - even in connection with ourselves or our own people - doesn't really enter into it.

But, of course, it has to be administered by men and women of backbone.

Appeals are looking for procedural error. That is all. Circumstantial evidence, jail house snitches, faulty eye-witness testimony are all touchy feely. They aren't retrying the case.

When I say Touchy-Feely, I mean exactly what it says.

I was not saying that the Appeals Process reviews the touchy-feely components of the case.

I was saying that how some of us FEEL about capital punishment has no bearing upon The Law nor its relative merits.

I know what you were saying. I am also watching you become touchy feely by denying the evidence that shows this is an unjust system because you feel that this is a just outcome.

You are welcome to try (albeit fail) to spin it that way, or to read far too much into it in support of your own position, but that does not render it as fact.

 

[Sonny Clark]

The officials responsible for willfully suppressing evidence in this capital case should now stand trial for their own lives.

First degree murder... conspiracy... etc, etc., etc.

And, along with the death sentence for themselves, when found guilty, they can toss-in forfeiture of pay and pension and benefits, back-dated to the date of the commission of the crime, and the seizure of sufficient assets to satisfy the financial elements of the sentence.

Crushing their souls prior to execution with the despairing knowledge that they've ruined their families, as well.

That should send a very clear message to those types of Godless, soulless bastards who might otherwise consider such mischief.

As long as the death penalty is there, and in such an instance where authorities mis-use the system, the posted proposal seems just.
There are fundamental problems with the death penalty, both pro and con.

The COST factor and the REVENGE factor are not solved through life imprisonment, and, there is always the chance that some flake bleeding heart will parole them in future.

You are correct that there is always a chance of misuse of power and that there is always a chance of mistaken conviction.

That is an excellent argument for better Quality Control and Monitoring and Review of the entire process, built into the judicial process, in order to avoid such mistakes.

It is an excellent argument for better Quality Control, NOT an end to Capital Punishment.

Most folks understand that you can never take-back an execution, once completed... shit happens.

Most folks also understand the maxim: "Better that a hundred guilty men go free than than one innocent man be convicted."

It's just that - within the domain of heinous crimes - that old maxim just doesn't pass the Sniff Test, in the Real World.

If we shoot or hang or fry or gas or inject 99 murderers, and then make the mistake of doing the same to 1 innocent man, that's a fantastic batting average.

The life of that 1 person is not enough to offset the benefits (cost, revenge) of killing the other 99.

Shit happens.

I agree wholeheartedly with any proposal to create fresh standards and processes and reviewing and monitoring for capital cases that prevents the vast majority of such incidents, and which would also greatly accelerate the appeals process, so that murderers, etc., are waiting 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 years for execution, rather than 10 or 20 or 30 or more.

I do not agree that capital punishment should be abolished.

Well, " IF " you were that "one person" out of a hundred, as you have stated, I doubt very seriously that you'd still feel the same as your comment implies. Can you imagine yourself totally innocent of any crime, yet in prison serving time on death row? Would you still consider yourself as collateral damage of the system you believe in? It's easy for you to pass-off that one person who is innocent, yet serving time, as merely collateral damage in order to ensure the other 99% pay the price for their crimes. Ever tried putting yourself on death row for a crime you didn't commit? I thought so.

Touchy-Feely is not part of the equation.

Ah, but justice is. Circumstantial cases are NOT justice. The equation should always represent true and real justice, backed by hard rock solid concrete undeniable undisputed evidence. Otherwise, there's always a chance that an innocent citizen will be placed behind bars. And, you never know, that innocent person could be you under the right circumstances. Think about it. If you look like someone else, and a witness identifies you as the person that committed the crime, you could be found guilty and sentenced to death. It's happened plenty of times in the past, and it'll continue to happen as long as circumstantial cases are allowed in our court rooms. Please check "The Innocence Project" for the many cases that I'm speaking of. In America, your freedom is your luck, plain and simple.

 

[Sonny Clark]

"NO reason to lie"? Do you know her personally? Do you know anything about her other than what has been made public concerning this case? How long have you known her? How many long and personal conversations have the two of you had over the years? Were the two of you neighbors? Did the two of you work for the same company for years and became very close friends? Exactly what do you know about this lady? Or, you are just assuming that she has no reason(s) to lie about hearing her husband say that he committed the crime? Which is it?

Guy, by that logic, we shouldn't lock up anyone unless we have film of them doing the crime.

It strikes me that if his wife said he was guilty, the cops said he was guilty, the arson investigator said he was guilty, a jury said he was guilty, and all the appeal courts said he was guilty...

Oh, yeah, and his defense attorney says he thinks his client did it.

Defense Lawyer Says Executed Client Was Guilty in Texas Arson



He was probably guilty.

This is a guy who had a long criminal record, who beat his pregnant wife, who screamed obscentities at her when he was in the death chamber.

Still, there was NO hard rock solid concrete evidence that pointed to his guilt. It was a circumstantial evidence case. Circumstantial evidence cases are based on "gut feelings", "could've been", "might have been", and the ability of a smooth talking silvered tongued prosecutor to convince a jury. Check "The Innocence Project" for the many cases which are great examples of what I'm talking about here.

 

[Sonny Clark]

The COST factor and the REVENGE factor are not solved through life imprisonment, and, there is always the chance that some flake bleeding heart will parole them in future.

You are correct that there is always a chance of misuse of power and that there is always a chance of mistaken conviction.

That is an excellent argument for better Quality Control and Monitoring and Review of the entire process, built into the judicial process, in order to avoid such mistakes.

It is an excellent argument for better Quality Control, NOT an end to Capital Punishment.

Most folks understand that you can never take-back an execution, once completed... shit happens.

Most folks also understand the maxim: "Better that a hundred guilty men go free than than one innocent man be convicted."

It's just that - within the domain of heinous crimes - that old maxim just doesn't pass the Sniff Test, in the Real World.

If we shoot or hang or fry or gas or inject 99 murderers, and then make the mistake of doing the same to 1 innocent man, that's a fantastic batting average.

The life of that 1 person is not enough to offset the benefits (cost, revenge) of killing the other 99.

Shit happens.

I agree wholeheartedly with any proposal to create fresh standards and processes and reviewing and monitoring for capital cases that prevents the vast majority of such incidents, and which would also greatly accelerate the appeals process, so that murderers, etc., are waiting 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 years for execution, rather than 10 or 20 or 30 or more.

I do not agree that capital punishment should be abolished.

Shit happens until it's one of yours or you yourself.

AMEN !!! .... Absolutely correct ............ I totally agree 110%...................... It's so easy for others to accept our system of injustice when they're not the victim.

We are talking about matters of Law.

Touch-Feely really doesn't enter into it.

Fair enough. The "LAW" says innocent until proven guilty. Circumstantial cases are not based on "PROOF". They are based on "gut feelings", "could've been", "might have been", and the ability of a smooth talking silvered tongued prosecutor to convince a jury.

Agreed.

Would that not be part of any Reform Movement in connection with Capital Punishment?

To take circumstantial evidence off the table as deciding factors and to monitor and review all death sentences (and every aspect of the law enforcement and judicial processes that led to them) to ensure that such convictions and sentences all met the very same (post-reforms) Standards?

I have zero problem with the idea of adding a Peer Review (outside the jurisdiction in question) component to Capital Cases, which would avoid most occasional mistakes.

Or some-such Quality Control measures, involving independent and in-depth review and affirmation or rejection.

The only just solution is to completely do away with circumstantial evidence cases, period. Guilt is like a woman being pregnant. She either is pregnant, or she isn't, no grey area. We should never allow circumstantial evidence cases to enter our court rooms, never. They don't PROVE guilt, they just convict citizens on what "might have been the case", "what could've been the case", and "my gut feeling says they're guilty". Proof of guilt should always be the determining factor in taking someone's freedom away.

 

[Kondor3]

The officials responsible for willfully suppressing evidence in this capital case should now stand trial for their own lives.

First degree murder... conspiracy... etc, etc., etc.

And, along with the death sentence for themselves, when found guilty, they can toss-in forfeiture of pay and pension and benefits, back-dated to the date of the commission of the crime, and the seizure of sufficient assets to satisfy the financial elements of the sentence.

Crushing their souls prior to execution with the despairing knowledge that they've ruined their families, as well.

That should send a very clear message to those types of Godless, soulless bastards who might otherwise consider such mischief.

As long as the death penalty is there, and in such an instance where authorities mis-use the system, the posted proposal seems just.
There are fundamental problems with the death penalty, both pro and con.

The COST factor and the REVENGE factor are not solved through life imprisonment, and, there is always the chance that some flake bleeding heart will parole them in future.

You are correct that there is always a chance of misuse of power and that there is always a chance of mistaken conviction.

That is an excellent argument for better Quality Control and Monitoring and Review of the entire process, built into the judicial process, in order to avoid such mistakes.

It is an excellent argument for better Quality Control, NOT an end to Capital Punishment.

Most folks understand that you can never take-back an execution, once completed... shit happens.

Most folks also understand the maxim: "Better that a hundred guilty men go free than than one innocent man be convicted."

It's just that - within the domain of heinous crimes - that old maxim just doesn't pass the Sniff Test, in the Real World.

If we shoot or hang or fry or gas or inject 99 murderers, and then make the mistake of doing the same to 1 innocent man, that's a fantastic batting average.

The life of that 1 person is not enough to offset the benefits (cost, revenge) of killing the other 99.

Shit happens.

I agree wholeheartedly with any proposal to create fresh standards and processes and reviewing and monitoring for capital cases that prevents the vast majority of such incidents, and which would also greatly accelerate the appeals process, so that murderers, etc., are waiting 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 years for execution, rather than 10 or 20 or 30 or more.

I do not agree that capital punishment should be abolished.

Well, " IF " you were that "one person" out of a hundred, as you have stated, I doubt very seriously that you'd still feel the same as your comment implies. Can you imagine yourself totally innocent of any crime, yet in prison serving time on death row? Would you still consider yourself as collateral damage of the system you believe in? It's easy for you to pass-off that one person who is innocent, yet serving time, as merely collateral damage in order to ensure the other 99% pay the price for their crimes. Ever tried putting yourself on death row for a crime you didn't commit? I thought so.

Touchy-Feely is not part of the equation.

Ah, but justice is. Circumstantial cases are NOT justice. The equation should always represent true and real justice, backed by hard rock solid concrete undeniable undisputed evidence. Otherwise, there's always a chance that an innocent citizen will be placed behind bars. And, you never know, that innocent person could be you under the right circumstances. Think about it. If you look like someone else, and a witness identifies you as the person that committed the crime, you could be found guilty and sentenced to death. It's happened plenty of times in the past, and it'll continue to happen as long as circumstantial cases are allowed in our court rooms. Please check "The Innocence Project" for the many cases that I'm speaking of. In America, your freedom is your luck, plain and simple.

Are you operating under the impression that we differ as to the weaknesses inherent in our existing system?

For the most part, we do not differ.

Nolo contendere.

No contest.

We do, however, differ in our opinion of the ethics and value associated with Capital Punishment, and whether it remains a salvageable component of our justice system.

 

[Sonny Clark]

As long as the death penalty is there, and in such an instance where authorities mis-use the system, the posted proposal seems just.
There are fundamental problems with the death penalty, both pro and con.

The COST factor and the REVENGE factor are not solved through life imprisonment, and, there is always the chance that some flake bleeding heart will parole them in future.

You are correct that there is always a chance of misuse of power and that there is always a chance of mistaken conviction.

That is an excellent argument for better Quality Control and Monitoring and Review of the entire process, built into the judicial process, in order to avoid such mistakes.

It is an excellent argument for better Quality Control, NOT an end to Capital Punishment.

Most folks understand that you can never take-back an execution, once completed... shit happens.

Most folks also understand the maxim: "Better that a hundred guilty men go free than than one innocent man be convicted."

It's just that - within the domain of heinous crimes - that old maxim just doesn't pass the Sniff Test, in the Real World.

If we shoot or hang or fry or gas or inject 99 murderers, and then make the mistake of doing the same to 1 innocent man, that's a fantastic batting average.

The life of that 1 person is not enough to offset the benefits (cost, revenge) of killing the other 99.

Shit happens.

I agree wholeheartedly with any proposal to create fresh standards and processes and reviewing and monitoring for capital cases that prevents the vast majority of such incidents, and which would also greatly accelerate the appeals process, so that murderers, etc., are waiting 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 years for execution, rather than 10 or 20 or 30 or more.

I do not agree that capital punishment should be abolished.

Well, " IF " you were that "one person" out of a hundred, as you have stated, I doubt very seriously that you'd still feel the same as your comment implies. Can you imagine yourself totally innocent of any crime, yet in prison serving time on death row? Would you still consider yourself as collateral damage of the system you believe in? It's easy for you to pass-off that one person who is innocent, yet serving time, as merely collateral damage in order to ensure the other 99% pay the price for their crimes. Ever tried putting yourself on death row for a crime you didn't commit? I thought so.

Touchy-Feely is not part of the equation.

Ah, but justice is. Circumstantial cases are NOT justice. The equation should always represent true and real justice, backed by hard rock solid concrete undeniable undisputed evidence. Otherwise, there's always a chance that an innocent citizen will be placed behind bars. And, you never know, that innocent person could be you under the right circumstances. Think about it. If you look like someone else, and a witness identifies you as the person that committed the crime, you could be found guilty and sentenced to death. It's happened plenty of times in the past, and it'll continue to happen as long as circumstantial cases are allowed in our court rooms. Please check "The Innocence Project" for the many cases that I'm speaking of. In America, your freedom is your luck, plain and simple.

Are you operating under the impression that we differ as to the weaknesses inherent in our existing system?

For the most part, we do not differ.

Nolo contendere.

No contest.

We do, however, differ in our opinion of the ethics and value associated with Capital Punishment, and whether it remains a salvageable component of our justice system.

I am all for punishing the guilty. I am totally for punishing those that commit crimes. I'm all for a legal system that administers justice. I'm not for the system of injustice that we have in this country today. Our present system allows way too many innocent citizens to serve time behind bars. Before I would be pro death penalty, I would have to see the system changed in ways that totally prevented an innocent citizen from being executed.

 

[protectionist]

Innocent people being executed should be an insurmountable bar to execution.

In the prosecutor's case, the DA's office is probably building a second degree murder or willful homicide case against Jackson. If it is built right, Jackson will ieave prison someday in a pine box.

If executions were barred (as they are already in some states) what is to be said for all the people that get killed because that execution did not occur ?

If Timothy McVeigh and John Allen Muhammad had not been executed, can we say everyone would have been safe from being killed by them ? We have a balance scale. On one side, all the people killed by killers who didn't get executed. On the other side, those executed wrongly. Does anyone in this thread have the complete numbers on that ?

Life, without parole....is the solution.....they will not kill again.

You are WRONG. They have ALREADY killed again, many times over. See Post # 17. Helps if you read the thread before entering.

Here's 2 examples >> Jeffrey Dahmer s killer explains why he did it - CNN.com

 

[Sonny Clark]

Innocent people being executed should be an insurmountable bar to execution.

In the prosecutor's case, the DA's office is probably building a second degree murder or willful homicide case against Jackson. If it is built right, Jackson will ieave prison someday in a pine box.

If executions were barred (as they are already in some states) what is to be said for all the people that get killed because that execution did not occur ?

If Timothy McVeigh and John Allen Muhammad had not been executed, can we say everyone would have been safe from being killed by them ? We have a balance scale. On one side, all the people killed by killers who didn't get executed. On the other side, those executed wrongly. Does anyone in this thread have the complete numbers on that ?

Life, without parole....is the solution.....they will not kill again.

You are WRONG. They have ALREADY killed again, many times over. See Post # 17. Helps if you read the thread before entering.

Here's 2 examples >> Jeffrey Dahmer s killer explains why he did it - CNN.com

Does that excuse or justify sending innocent citizens to prison, and in some cases, to death row? Do you approve of circumstantial evidence cases?

 

[protectionist]

Innocent people being executed should be an insurmountable bar to execution.

In the prosecutor's case, the DA's office is probably building a second degree murder or willful homicide case against Jackson. If it is built right, Jackson will ieave prison someday in a pine box.

If executions were barred (as they are already in some states) what is to be said for all the people that get killed because that execution did not occur ?

If Timothy McVeigh and John Allen Muhammad had not been executed, can we say everyone would have been safe from being killed by them ? We have a balance scale. On one side, all the people killed by killers who didn't get executed. On the other side, those executed wrongly. Does anyone in this thread have the complete numbers on that ?

Life, without parole....is the solution.....they will not kill again.

So people who serve life without parole don't ever kill in prison.

Some crimes are so heinous that death is deserved.

Hell on Earth is more of a punishment than mere death....and these criminals of heinous crimes should be given hell on Earth as their sentence...hard labor, isolation, captivity, no chance of freedom.

That doesn't take away the RISK of others being killed as long as these killers remain alive (ANYWHERE) Even in solitary confinement, they can kill again.

 

[protectionist]

Innocent people being executed should be an insurmountable bar to execution.

In the prosecutor's case, the DA's office is probably building a second degree murder or willful homicide case against Jackson. If it is built right, Jackson will ieave prison someday in a pine box.

If executions were barred (as they are already in some states) what is to be said for all the people that get killed because that execution did not occur ?

If Timothy McVeigh and John Allen Muhammad had not been executed, can we say everyone would have been safe from being killed by them ? We have a balance scale. On one side, all the people killed by killers who didn't get executed. On the other side, those executed wrongly. Does anyone in this thread have the complete numbers on that ?

Life, without parole....is the solution.....they will not kill again.

You are WRONG. They have ALREADY killed again, many times over. See Post # 17. Helps if you read the thread before entering.

Here's 2 examples >> Jeffrey Dahmer s killer explains why he did it - CNN.com

Does that excuse or justify sending innocent citizens to prison, and in some cases, to death row? Do you approve of circumstantial evidence cases?

1. Of course it doesn't excuse or justify sending innocent citizens to prison,and why are you asking me that, when I never even came close to saying such a thing. In fact in mor ethan 1 post I said convictions soul dbe only when the proof is positive.

2. I absolutely do approve of circumstantial evidence cases, and depending on the forensics, they are some of the most positive cases of all.

 

[Sonny Clark]

Innocent people being executed should be an insurmountable bar to execution.

In the prosecutor's case, the DA's office is probably building a second degree murder or willful homicide case against Jackson. If it is built right, Jackson will ieave prison someday in a pine box.

If executions were barred (as they are already in some states) what is to be said for all the people that get killed because that execution did not occur ?

If Timothy McVeigh and John Allen Muhammad had not been executed, can we say everyone would have been safe from being killed by them ? We have a balance scale. On one side, all the people killed by killers who didn't get executed. On the other side, those executed wrongly. Does anyone in this thread have the complete numbers on that ?

Life, without parole....is the solution.....they will not kill again.

So people who serve life without parole don't ever kill in prison.

Some crimes are so heinous that death is deserved.

Hell on Earth is more of a punishment than mere death....and these criminals of heinous crimes should be given hell on Earth as their sentence...hard labor, isolation, captivity, no chance of freedom.

That doesn't take away the RISK of others being killed as long as these killers remain alive (ANYWHERE) Even in solitary confinement, they can kill again.

How can they kill someone if they're in solitary confinement? How often do inmates kill other inmates? How common is it? And, it takes years of appeals before the death sentence is carried out. Are you saying that once the death sentence is announced, the execution should immediately be carried out?

 

[rdean]

GOP

 

[rdean]

Any surprise in that backward inbred white trash run state


It’s official, the State of Texas executed an innocent man – an innocent father – after prosecutors deliberately concealed evidence in his children’s arson deaths. Now the state bar of Texas has filed a formal misconduct accusation against the prosecutor in this case.

The bar had already filed a petition in Navarro County, near Dallas, earlier this month that alleged that prosecutor John Jackson deliberately withheld evidence which indicated that Cameron Todd Willingham was innocent. Because of this, Willingham was executed in 2004 for supposedly murdering his three young daughters. His daughters died in a house fire back in 1991, but the evidence Jackson suppressed showed that Willingham had nothing to do with the fire that took his daughters from him.

Texas Executed An Innocent Father After Prosecutor Hid Evidence In Kids Arson Deaths

If all this is true, it of course is sad, and anyone guilty, should be prosecuted. It still, however is not a case made against the death penalty in general. It is a case against bad jurisprudence.

It is still true that not imposing the death penalty, runs the risk of the convicted killers killing again, as has occured much more times than innocent people being executed.

What's wrong with life without the possibility of parole?

That's what Texas does when they think you are innocent.

 

[protectionist]

Innocent people being executed should be an insurmountable bar to execution.

In the prosecutor's case, the DA's office is probably building a second degree murder or willful homicide case against Jackson. If it is built right, Jackson will ieave prison someday in a pine box.

If executions were barred (as they are already in some states) what is to be said for all the people that get killed because that execution did not occur ?

If Timothy McVeigh and John Allen Muhammad had not been executed, can we say everyone would have been safe from being killed by them ? We have a balance scale. On one side, all the people killed by killers who didn't get executed. On the other side, those executed wrongly. Does anyone in this thread have the complete numbers on that ?

Life, without parole....is the solution.....they will not kill again.

So people who serve life without parole don't ever kill in prison.

Some crimes are so heinous that death is deserved.

Hell on Earth is more of a punishment than mere death....and these criminals of heinous crimes should be given hell on Earth as their sentence...hard labor, isolation, captivity, no chance of freedom.

Unfortunately that isn't the way our society works. I mean in federal super max prisons there are guys who are locked up 23 hours a day , but they have a nice comfy bunk a/c , 3 healthy meals etc etc.

But beneath that we have guys who actually PREFER being in prison. Pathetic.

And for the truly horrific I"m fine with skipping hell on Earth and sending the scum straight to actual hell.

Agreed. This may sound slightly weird but for some people prison isn't too bad. Outside they'd never make it, be homeless and hungry. In prison not only are all their basic needs met but they have recreation time too. I've seen where they play basket ball, softball, chess, video games, internet + get all the medical/dental they need. There are people outside and free who don't have all that. But my main support for the death penalty is to protect the living.