Texas "fetal heartbeat" law to be NATIONAL MODEL

[Rawley]

Doesn't matter. The embryo or fetus is not viable in at 6 or 13 weeks.

OK. And?

 

[buttercup]

Doesn't matter. The embryo or fetus is not viable in at 6 or 13 weeks.

Irrelevant. You proaborts sound so backwards and unscientific when you keep trying to claim that viability is what determines our humanity.

 

[Blues Man]

Well you didn't really answer my question. Let me try again, I'll put it in a different way. If you're claiming that the new individual is a human being or "baby" simply because of location... would you then agree that frozen embryos that are used in embryo adoption are indeed babies? I mean, they're outside the womb, and that seems to be your criteria.

Thaw them out and see if they survive.

They aren't viable either.

 

[buttercup]

Thaw them out and see if they survive.

They aren't viable either.

Hold on, now you're going against your previous statement. So let's get this clear. When the frozen embryo is outside the womb, surviving without a mother, it's a baby, right? But then when the frozen embryo is inserted into a woman's womb, that baby goes back to being a non-baby? lol!

The bottom line which you guys are not grasping is that viability is not what determines our humanity. That is completely unscientific and arbitrary. And it changes, as technology changes.

 

[Coyote]

Irrelevant. You proaborts sound so backwards and unscientific when you keep trying to claim that viability is what determines our humanity.

What exact determines our “humanity”? Chromosomes only determine our species, not our value.

 

[buttercup]

What exact determines our “humanity”? Chromosomes only determine our species, not our value.

Basic biology. At conception, the life of a new, genetically unique individual begins. We are a human being the moment we come into existence. I'll put it this way… If your mother killed you in the womb, at eight weeks, she would have killed YOU, simply in a different stage of life.

That is science. If you don't believe me I can round up tons of quotes from medical textbooks and scientists confirming that human life begins at conception. Not some time later, when the baby can survive outside the womb, that is ignorant and against science.

 

[Blues Man]

Hold on, now you're going against your previous statement. So let's get this clear. When the frozen embryo is outside the womb, surviving without a mother, it's a baby, right? But then when the frozen embryo is inserted into a woman's womb, that baby goes back to being a non-baby? lol!

The bottom line which you guys are not grasping is that viability is not what determines our humanity. That is completely unscientific and arbitrary. And it changes, as technology changes.

A frozen embryo is not surviving without its mother if it was you could thaw it out and have it grow up.

And yes right now any fetus 22 weeks or younger cannot really be kept alive outside the womb even with the best technology and medicine.

Which is why I have no real problem with abortions early on in the pregnancy.

 

[Blues Man]

Viability is at 23 weeks, dope.

And even that can be iffy

 

[Coyote]

Basic biology. At conception, the life of a new, genetically unique individual begins. We are a human being the moment we come into existence. I'll put it this way… If your mother killed you in the womb, at eight weeks, she would have killed YOU, simply in a different stage of life.

That is science. If you don't believe me I can round up tons of quotes from medical textbooks and scientists confirming that human life begins at conception. Not some time later, when the baby can survive outside the womb, that is ignorant and against science.

We are of the human species. That is it. But “humanity“ implies something more.

Humanity - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms

Humanity is the human race, which includes everyone on Earth. It’s also a word for the qualities that make us human, such as the ability to love and have compassion, be creative, and not be a robot or alien.

www.vocabulary.com

Humanity is the human race, which includes everyone on Earth. It’s also a word for the qualities that make us human, such as the ability to love and have compassion, be creative, and not be a robot or alien.

 

[buttercup]

A frozen embryo is not surviving without its mother if it was you could thaw it out and have it grow up.

And yes right now any fetus 22 weeks or younger cannot really be kept alive outside the womb even with the best technology and medicine.

Which is why I have no real problem with abortions early on in the pregnancy.

It sounds like you're moving the goalposts. Before you said if that if a new life could survive outside the womb, it's a baby. Well frozen embryos survive sometimes for years outside the womb… so during those years it's a baby? Yes or no?

Let me ask you another question. If technology developed an artificial womb, would those new lives inhabiting those artificial wombs be "babies" to you? Because they would be surviving without the mother, which seems to be your criteria for human life. Again, viability is not what determines our humanity. That is totally unscientific and arbitrary.

 

[Dana7360]

OK, I take it back, you actually are that fucking stupid. It's not an act. LOL!

But you still didn't answer the question: when does life begin?

You didn't answer my question who developed a language and who taught it to the snake.

 

[Blues Man]

It sounds like you're moving the goalposts. Before you said if that if a new life could survive outside the womb, it's a baby. Well frozen embryos survive sometimes for years outside the womb… so during those years it's a baby? Yes or no?

Let me ask you another question. If technology developed an artificial womb, would those new lives inhabiting those artificial wombs be "babies" to you? Because they would be surviving without the mother, which seems to be your criteria for human life. Again, viability is not what determines our humanity. That is totally unscientific and arbitrary.

Like i said thaw them out and see of they survive. If you can't put an embryo in a petri dish and grow it to a child outside of a womb then it's not viable

 

[buttercup]

Like i said thaw them out and see of they survive.

That's not answering the question. I asked you what they are AT THAT TIME.

Also you ignored the second paragraph of my post, so please answer.

If you can't put an embryo in a petri dish and grow it to a child outside of a womb then it's not viable

No one claimed they were. So what? Viability is irrelevant in regard to what determines our humanity. A preborn is not supposed to be viable in the early stages of pregnancy.

 

[buttercup]

We are of the human species. That is it. But “humanity“ implies something more.

Humanity - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms

Humanity is the human race, which includes everyone on Earth. It’s also a word for the qualities that make us human, such as the ability to love and have compassion, be creative, and not be a robot or alien.

www.vocabulary.com

Humanity is the human race, which includes everyone on Earth. It’s also a word for the qualities that make us human, such as the ability to love and have compassion, be creative, and not be a robot or alien.

No, you are conflating characteristics of persons in certain stages of life, with personhood. A newborn baby doesn't have the ability to be creative, or have compassion (criteria according to your link) yet obviously the newborn is a human being.

What you're actually doing is discriminating against certain human beings, based on age and location, simply to maintain your political position for elective abortion.

 

[Natural Citizen]

What's gawn awn, buttercup.

You want a wingman? I see the other patient is under assault again. Heh heh.

 

[Grumblenuts]

As shocking and downright gruesome as it may sound, killing your own babies to acquire physical and ecological advantages is fairly common in the animal kingdom.

“It’s one of the less pleasant aspects of nature, something humans don’t like to think about.” says Douglas W. Mock, a biology professor at the University of Oklahoma and the author of a book on the subject. “We assume that other species look at offspring the same way that we look at offspring; to us, it seems as if infanticide must be some sick kind of thing, but it isn’t necessarily.”

 

[Natural Citizen]

No, you are conflating characteristics of persons in certain stages of life, with personhood. A newborn baby doesn't have the ability to be creative, or have compassion (criteria according to your link) yet obviously the newborn is a human being.

What you're actually doing is discriminating against certain human beings, based on age and location, simply to maintain your political position for elective abortion.

Whats she's actually doing is trying to remove the Individual from the terms of controversy and to flip the discussion toward a more collectivist approach.

That what collectivists do. They wanna remove the notion of the other Individual from the equation as soon as possible.

 

[Penelope]

You are blaming God only to curry your holier than thou secular worship for leftist thugs. God gave people free will to live as they choose. You chose to tear down God. Don't come crying to me for telling the truth to you when you account your upping the ante on millions of murdering human beings by way of abortions on judgment day. You have made your choice to support the wanton dismemberment of little bitty human beings in their first stages of human development. I frankly don't believe the heinous method of killing a developing child is good for the development of morality in human beings in their sexual maturity stages. It destroys any goodness in the mothers who cravenly demanded to be relieved of responsibility of patenting a child for the love of never having to deal with someone as miserable as the self. Devour the human race is what misfortune abortion brings to those who declare war on a weak little baby who unfortunately cannot takecan AK-47 on the freaks who conspire to kill its precious little chance to continue it's life to maturity like big people who think a little human life doesn't matter in the least little bit although the ugly truth of the abortion is that it hurts its victim to death. And there is documented evidence that its victims try to escape the killing instruments of abortion weilded by wealth-seeking abortionists and their assistants in this heinous taking of the life of a hapless and helpless little human being. Life of someone else regarded as nothing but a parasite will come back to its practioners who will be called out for it one fine day in the spirit.

Well its your god and he causes a lot of spontaneous abortions.

For those of us atheists we know its science.


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About 10 to 20 percent of known pregnancies end in miscarriage. But the actual number is likely higher because many miscarriages occur so early in pregnancy that a woman doesn't realize she's pregnant.


Miscarriage is a somewhat loaded term — possibly suggesting that something was amiss in the carrying of the pregnancy. This is rarely true. Most miscarriages occur because the fetus isn't developing normally.

Miscarriage is a relatively common experience — but that doesn't make it any easier. Take a step toward emotional healing by understanding what can cause a miscarriage, what increases the risk and what medical care might be needed.

Miscarriage - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

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The Christian god giveth and takes it away.

 

[buttercup]

Whats she's actually doing is trying to remove the Individual from the terms of controversy and to flip the discussion toward a more collectivist approach.

That what collectivists do.

Very good point. But I think its also a really discriminatory way of looking at things… some human beings aren't valuable enough in their mind to be acknowledged as fellow human beings. The Nazis did that with Jews, and the same was done with black slaves as well. Collectivist and elitist indeed!

 

[Natural Citizen]

Very good point. But I think its also a really discriminatory way of looking at things…

Well that's what collectivism is. It encourages Americans to adopt a group mentality. To view Individuals who share superficial characteristics solely as members of groups rather than as Individuals.

Modern liberalism, regardless of how well-intentioned they believe themselves to be, is a byproduct of the same collectivist thinking which characterizes racism.

So, yeah. Agreed. Very discriminatory in nature.