Thanks Biden, the Terrorists are beheading our allies again.

[Rigby5]

there have been many…US Cole, twice at the WTC, in places all over Israel, Europe, snd the United States

Both WTC attacks were deliberate CIA events.
With the first bombing in 1993, the FBI even provided the explosives and truck.
The testimony is on record.
Just do a search on Emad Salem, the FBI informant who taped the FBI conversations with him.
With the 2nd WTC attack, the FBI told the Bush administration all about the Saudis taking flying lessons, etc.
Clearly they wanted and encouraged the attack.

 

[Rigby5]

Gaddafi built hospitals with no equipment and no doctors.. He was half assed about a lot of things.

They certainly had no emergency services so this was an outreach thing by Mass General.. and not so unusual an arrangement in the ME.

But a very unusual thing to do in Benghazi, practically a war zone, without any direct control by Tripoli.
It was a rebel camp.
Nor was it controlled by ethic Berbers.
It was all very radical extremists, like Lebanese, Palestinians, Jordanians, Syrians, etc., who had to leave their home country due to being a threat to the existing governments.

 

[zaangalewa]

You're stupid..

Aha.

Mecca hosts a million or more pilgrims a year

2 millions.

and facilities to provide for food, shelter, transportation and healthcare are essential to their well being.

Why not to make a big car park there and some hot dog inns in the very old heathen place Kaaba? But I'm indeed really "stupid". When US-American soldiers in the Iraq drove against a corner of a historical building in Babylon and damaged it I was as angry about this as about the death of much too many Iraqis because of this totally wrong and counterproductive war from George W. Bush for the Saudi Arabian Wahabism - the prototpe of all "Islamic State" movements. It's one thing to know that life is more valueable than istorical buildings - it's another thing to find out what makes oneself angry.

 

[zaangalewa]

Its an ignorant lie. There is NO stoning in Saudi Arabia. Most jackasses who write about Arabia know nothing about the country.

There are only public hangings ... ah sorry: beheadings.

 

[Rigby5]

The US apparently has reduced executions to only about 20 a year, and Saudi Arabia seems to have increased them to about 150?

 

[zaangalewa]

If you want to defend Hitler then go ahead.

surada

Both of you show by calling me a Nazi who defends Hitler that you don't have any real arguments because you refuse to see the complexity of reality. Example: George W. Bush created ISIS by defending the Saud system, which is in the total opposite of the founding principles of the USA. You create what you hate. Saddam Husein had by the way fought once against the Iran for the Sauds and the USA and had caused an immense damage in the Iran - for long eight years.

 

[Turtlesoup]

Wrong.
The Quran is clear that there can never be any compulsion over religion, and that both Christianity and Judaism are "Brother of the Book", and are valid ways to heaven.
All 3 monotheistic religions share the same Old Testament.

Moslems NEVER try to expand or convert anyone, ever.
What they want is just to not have foreign value systems imposed upon them by force.
And the advantage of Islam over all other religions is that it is the only one that implements social welfare systems built in, like for orphans and widows.

Islam lies and calls for lying to infidels and then uses the sword on them when they don't convert or pay tribute. Your lying by trying to hide this. You think non muslims are uneducated--we aren't. ISLAM is spread by the sword......it's a warlord religion that uses terror and rape and murder to spread it. S

Social welfare system built in? Oh you mean where the widows and kids beg on the street because women aren't allowed to do much else without a man around. AND BTW, why is the west's welfare so abused by muslims?

 

[zaangalewa]

Both WTC attacks were deliberate CIA events. ...

Strange idea. You was lucky that not very much people were in the buildings when they were bombed down. I heard up to 20,000 people had been in this buildings from time to time. So in all frustrations you also can not say god is not with you.

And whatever 9/11 wounded - let not infect you by the hate of the offenders. God bless the USA.

 

[Turtlesoup]

Both WTC attacks were deliberate CIA events.
With the first bombing in 1993, the FBI even provided the explosives and truck.
The testimony is on record.
Just do a search on Emad Salem, the FBI informant who taped the FBI conversations with him.
With the 2nd WTC attack, the FBI told the Bush administration all about the Saudis taking flying lessons, etc.
Clearly they wanted and encouraged the attack.

The FBI are a corrupt organization--I have trouble with conspiracy theory that doesn't have them listed at the top of the suspect list.

 

[Rigby5]

Islam lies and calls for lying to infidels and then uses the sword on them when they don't convert or pay tribute. Your lying by trying to hide this. You think non muslims are uneducated--we aren't. ISLAM is spread by the sword......it's a warlord religion that uses terror and rape and murder to spread it. S

Social welfare system built in? Oh you mean where the widows and kids beg on the street because women aren't allowed to do much else without a man around. AND BTW, why is the west's welfare so abused by muslims?

The jizya is symbolic tribute, and is usually less than the zakat.
And no, Islam does not "call for lying to infidels".
Islam only allows for lying when these are lives at stake.
It is a warlord religion only in that there were only warlords when Mohammad was trying to create a system of survival.
It is not spread by murder, rape, or terror, and in fact Moslems do not want to spread it at all.
Instead they would prefer to remain isolated from those who are corrupted.

{...
The classical jurists have defined two types of Jizyah: The Jizyah of Conciliation (al-Sulhiyyah) and the Jizyah of Exaction (al-`Anwiyyah).

The first type is when a Kafir nation signs a treaty with the Muslim nation without going to war. The magnitude of this Jizyah is whatever both sides agree to.

The second is the type of Jizyah that is exacted from the citizens of a formerly kafir land, after their previous administration has been defeated in war. It is exacted from all the free, sane, adult men who are able to pay it. The monks living in their monasteries or those too poor to pay it are exempt. There are differing positions regarding its magnitude, the two main positions (Hanafi & Maliki) are as follows:

The Hanafi position is that the magnitude varies with the level of wealth of the Dhimmi. For the rich it is 48 dirhams (silver coins) yearly, for the middle classes 24 dirhams and for the poor [who are able to pay] 12 dirhams.

The Maliki position is that the Jizyah is 4 dinars (gold coins) yearly for the people who have gold and 40 dirhams for those who have silver.

The other two positions are the Shafi’i who hold that the minimum amount of Jizyah is one pure gold dinar annually and it is upon the discretion of the Imam (Muslim leader) to exact more if he sees fit and the Hanbali who say that it’s wholly upon the discretion of the Imam and he can lower & raise it as he sees fit depending on the ability of the Ahl al Dhimmah to pay

---

Edit: As for the question of whether the Jizyah is lower or higher than Zakah, as is clear, because of the difference in the way they’re levied, you can’t definitely say which one is higher; depending on the circumstances the Zakah of a Muslim citizen could be higher than the Jizyah paid by a Dhimmi or it could be the other way around.

It must be noted that Zakah is a religious obligation of a Muslim. While payment of Zakah on cattle, the grain harvest (tenth or twentieth part) etc. to the leader does signify acceptance of him as a legitimate Muslim authority, however it’s primarily an obligation to God. If there’s no sultan to collect Zakah, it’s still upon a Muslim to give the amount owed to a legitimate beneficiary. Jizyah on the other hand, is levied on a person or nation which does not accept what God has obligated but pays an amount to show their acceptance of the Muslim authorities.
...}

 

[zaangalewa]

He was what?

What is wrong with this fucking forum?

Hitler got no orders - from no one. (Except when he had been a soldier in world war 1). And Hitler had been an anti-Soviet. Some people in the USA attack "The Democrats" of the USA, because Hitler had been a socialist and they like to see in Democrats also socialists and Nazis - but this is just simple an extreme political nonsense propaganda. What doesn't mean that not some people - independent from their political orientation - use the same form of an extreme inhuman propaganda as the Nazis did do - also with racist biological arguments (=elitist pseudo-Darwinism). Here in Germany we say sometimes: "Someone is so far left that he comes back from the extreme right edge." or "Someone is so far right that he comes back from the extreme left edge." But this is not a system. In general the Nazis had been a right wing movement - a kind of right wing revolution.

 

[zaangalewa]

I do not get your point.
Most Christians do not believe in a triune, only Catholics do,

What's nonsense because you don't understand the word "καθολικός" = "[all-]encompassing". The Nicene creed is common for all Christians. Only the sentence "we believe in one catholic and apostolic church" is sometimes replaced with sentences like "we believe in the christian church" where "christian" means the same as "καθολικός".

and Christians do not believe the son of God is a god.

We Germanics were once "Arianer" =arians (not to confuse with "Arier" = aryans. In German this are totally different words). We saw in Him a hundred percent human being. But this did not change when we became Catholics. On logical reasons, which I don't like to explain now, it is impossible not to see in Jesus god. No one is really able to make a difference between Jesus and god - except he calls Jesus an impostor. And not even Muslims do so. They call Jesus a prophet.

Believing in the Holy Ghost is not a belief in multiple gods because anyone who believes in heaven or hell, believes we all have immortal souls.

Don't be astonished: But no one has really to believe in an own immortal soul who is a Christian, although nearly everyone is doing so. For the past I can say such a thing seems to exist because we all seem to be here since the very first moments of the universe, but whether we will continue to exist after our death I do not know. We believe in general god will call us back into a new everlasting (¿or timeless?) life with our soul and a new body made of light. And between Catholics and other Christians exists here specially the difference that many Roman Catholics are not convinced from an everlasting hell, because we are living in a limited way here on Earth - what not seems to justify a never ending punishment. We think more about a kind of cleanig fire - the so called purgatory - in which the soul (including body of light) will be finally cleaned from our last sins.

Immortal souls are not gods.

The sword is a symbol of defense, not conquest.

A sword is a piece of metal which is made to kill human beings. We were over long thousands of years excellent manufacturers of swords. The Japanese katana is the most famous sword in the world - but the German long sword is really doing what the myths say about the Japanese katana. Both are two hand swords - and the ways to fight with them are very different.

The Saudis are tribal and are not good Moslems.

Everyone belongs to a tribe - and to call all people from a tribe to be "not good in their own religion" sounds to be a little racist. I'm sure it exist also very wise Saudis - but whether other people hear or like to hear what they say will be another problem.

Islam got divided by the Mongol Conquest around 1200, so it interpreted by many different tribal factions.
It is not unified under a single leadership.

Leadership? Hmmm ... Roman Catholics are unified under a leading servent of the servents of god who serve other Catholics. So who is our real leader? A tramp? ... Whatever. ... Fortunatelly a Trump seems not to be any leader in such a context. ...

 

[surada]

The US apparently has reduced executions to only about 20 a year, and Saudi Arabia seems to have increased them to about 150?

Saudi Arabia puts terrorists to death.

 

[surada]

The jizya is symbolic tribute, and is usually less than the zakat.
And no, Islam does not "call for lying to infidels".
Islam only allows for lying when these are lives at stake.
It is a warlord religion only in that there were only warlords when Mohammad was trying to create a system of survival.
It is not spread by murder, rape, or terror, and in fact Moslems do not want to spread it at all.
Instead they would prefer to remain isolated from those who are corrupted.

{...
The classical jurists have defined two types of Jizyah: The Jizyah of Conciliation (al-Sulhiyyah) and the Jizyah of Exaction (al-`Anwiyyah).

The first type is when a Kafir nation signs a treaty with the Muslim nation without going to war. The magnitude of this Jizyah is whatever both sides agree to.

The second is the type of Jizyah that is exacted from the citizens of a formerly kafir land, after their previous administration has been defeated in war. It is exacted from all the free, sane, adult men who are able to pay it. The monks living in their monasteries or those too poor to pay it are exempt. There are differing positions regarding its magnitude, the two main positions (Hanafi & Maliki) are as follows:

The Hanafi position is that the magnitude varies with the level of wealth of the Dhimmi. For the rich it is 48 dirhams (silver coins) yearly, for the middle classes 24 dirhams and for the poor [who are able to pay] 12 dirhams.

The Maliki position is that the Jizyah is 4 dinars (gold coins) yearly for the people who have gold and 40 dirhams for those who have silver.

The other two positions are the Shafi’i who hold that the minimum amount of Jizyah is one pure gold dinar annually and it is upon the discretion of the Imam (Muslim leader) to exact more if he sees fit and the Hanbali who say that it’s wholly upon the discretion of the Imam and he can lower & raise it as he sees fit depending on the ability of the Ahl al Dhimmah to pay

---

Edit: As for the question of whether the Jizyah is lower or higher than Zakah, as is clear, because of the difference in the way they’re levied, you can’t definitely say which one is higher; depending on the circumstances the Zakah of a Muslim citizen could be higher than the Jizyah paid by a Dhimmi or it could be the other way around.

It must be noted that Zakah is a religious obligation of a Muslim. While payment of Zakah on cattle, the grain harvest (tenth or twentieth part) etc. to the leader does signify acceptance of him as a legitimate Muslim authority, however it’s primarily an obligation to God. If there’s no sultan to collect Zakah, it’s still upon a Muslim to give the amount owed to a legitimate beneficiary. Jizyah on the other hand, is levied on a person or nation which does not accept what God has obligated but pays an amount to show their acceptance of the Muslim authorities.
...}

Dirham is - the basic monetary unit of Morocco and United Arab Emirates.

 

[Burgermeister]

Looks like this happened on the same day Biden taped his scolding about the dark forces here in American - “We also witnessed the dark forces of human nature. Fear and anger. Resentment and violence against Muslim-Americans — true and faithful followers of a peaceful religion,”

 

[Rigby5]

Hitler got no orders - from no one. (Except when he had been a soldier in world war 1). And Hitler had been an anti-Soviet. Some people in the USA attack "The Democrats" of the USA, because Hitler had been a socialist and they like to see in Democrats also socialists and Nazis - but this is just simple an extreme political nonsense propaganda. What doesn't mean that not some people - independent from their political orientation - use the same form of an extreme inhuman propaganda as the Nazis did do - also with racist biological arguments (=elitist pseudo-Darwinism). Here in Germany we say sometimes: "Someone is so far left that he comes back from the extreme right edge." or "Someone is so far right that he comes back from the extreme left edge." But this is not a system. In general the Nazis had been a right wing movement - a kind of right wing revolution.

I doubt Hitler himself was anti soviet.
Hitler hung around with socialists and communists when younger.
But after he was jailed, and released, he had no money or fame.
Someone spent a lot of money publishing his book, renting stadiums, putting on shows, etc.
Someone marketed Hitler, and spent millions.
During the 1930s, the Germans and Soviets were collaborative, working on tank design together.
In 1939 they collaboratively divided Poland.
Hitler showed no person anti-soviet sentiment.
I do not believe Operation Barbarossa was his idea.

What if the money sponsoring Hitler actually came from people like GM, Std Oil, etc.?
Then they would want war because there are always profits to be made by war, but they would not have really wanted Hitler to win.
So then they would ensure he lost, and what better way to do that then to order him to attack Russia?

 

[zaangalewa]

I doubt Hitler himself was anti soviet.

There is nothing to doubt in this fact.

Hitler hung around with socialists and communists when younger.

No idea what you say here.

But after he was jailed, and released, he had no money or fame.

What? Hitler never had money. He was poor. He was jailed because he made a riot. Unfortunlately he was not jailed long enough then "Mein K(r)ampf" had been perhaps a serialize novel.

Someone spent a lot of money publishing his book, renting stadiums, putting on shows, etc.

Sure. He got it from his fan club.

Someone marketed Hitler, and spent millions.

What do you like to say? That Hitler was able to convince people from his political ideas?

During the 1930s, the Germans and Soviets were collaborative, working on tank design together.

On what? Tank design? Funny.

In 1939 they collaboratively divided Poland.

What started world war 2.

Hitler showed no person anti-soviet sentiment. ...

You are really an idiot. Learn first somehting before you try to discuss with a German like me about Hitler. ...

 

[sealybobo]

Well, our guys finally got OBL when Obama was president so that was a good thing.

I think Bush sort of forgot about OBL.

What happened there was shady. He had him surrounded in the Tora Bora mountains, then let him slip through.

The Saudi Binladin Group is Egypt's largest private foreign company and negotiated with the Lebanese government to rebuild part of central Beirut under a US $50 million contract. In 2009, the Bin Laden family was listed as the 5th wealthiest Saudi family by Forbes magazine, with a reported net worth of $7 billion.

 

[Rigby5]

What's nonsense because you don't understand the word "καθολικός" = "[all-]encompassing". The Nicene creed is common for all Christians. Only the sentence "we believe in one catholic and apostolic church" is sometimes replaced with sentences like "we believe in the christian church" where "christian" means the same as "καθολικός".



We Germanics were once "Arianer" =arians (not to confuse with "Arier" = aryans. In German this are totally different words). We saw in Him a hundred percent human being. But this did not change when we became Catholics. On logical reasons, which I don't like to explain now, it is impossible not to see in Jesus god. No one is really able to make a difference between Jesus and god - except he calls Jesus an impostor. And not even Muslims do so. They call Jesus a prophet.



Don't be astonished: But no one has really to believe in an own immortal soul who is a Christian, although nearly everyone is doing so. For the past I can say such a thing seems to exist because we all seem to be here since the very first moments of the universe, but whether we will continue to exist after our death I do not know. We believe in general god will call us back into a new everlasting (¿or timeless?) life with our soul and a new body made of light. And between Catholics and other Christians exists here specially the difference that many Roman Catholics are not convinced from an everlasting hell, because we are living in a limited way here on Earth - what not seems to justify a never ending punishment. We think more about a kind of cleanig fire - the so called purgatory - in which the soul (including body of light) will be finally cleaned from our last sins.



A sword is a piece of metal which is made to kill human beings. We were over long thousands of years excellent manufacturers of swords. The Japanese katana is the most famous sword in the world - but the German long sword is really doing what the myths say about the Japanese katana. Both are two hand swords - and the ways to fight with them are very different.



Everyone belongs to a tribe - and to call all people from a tribe to be "not good in their own religion" sounds to be a little racist. I'm sure it exist also very wise Saudis - but whether other people hear or like to hear what they say will be another problem.



Leadership? Hmmm ... Roman Catholics are unified under a leading servent of the servents of god who serve other Catholics. So who is our real leader? A tramp? ... Whatever. ... Fortunatelly a Trump seems not to be any leader in such a context. ...

I have never met anyone who believed Jesus was a God.
It would make no sense.
A God would not walk around talking to groups of people, trying to make them believe something.
A God could and would just make them believe whatever the God wanted, like making the nature of all animals.
Most people I know look at the Nicene crowd as evil and corrupt.
My wife is Catholic, and even she thinks the triune thing is contradictory and silly.

A sword is technology. What people use technology for, is up to them.

It is not at all racist to understand Moslems are bad at understanding Islam.
Islam only actually lasted for about 600 years.
After that, the Mongol invasion totally wiped out Baghdad and all Moslem leadership.
After that, the Mongols recreated Islam, but it was not the exact same thing.
Each new wave of Asian invaders, the Mongols, Moghuls, and Turks, each took over and changed Islam into what they wanted, not what it was originally supposed to be.

The Europeans are right that Islam came off as invaders, but those were not really Moslems, but Mongols, Moghuls, Moors, Mamelukes, and Turks, who simply used Islam to further their goals. Whether or not Arabs remembered or restored what Islam was supposed to be, I do not know. Nor do I know for sure what the original Islam was supposed to be, other than what I have read so far.

 

[surada]

What happened there was shady. He had him surrounded in the Tora Bora mountains, then let him slip through.

The Saudi Binladin Group is Egypt's largest private foreign company and negotiated with the Lebanese government to rebuild part of central Beirut under a US $50 million contract. In 2009, the Bin Laden family was listed as the 5th wealthiest Saudi family by Forbes magazine, with a reported net worth of $7 billion.

The Bin Laden family are very respectable, pro-America and successful. OBL was a black sheep , raised in Syria on Muslim Brotherhood narratives of Hassan Al Banna and Sayeed Qubt.. That stuff has been outlawed in Arabia since 1970.

OBL hated the Saudis because they revoked his citizenship in 1994 and declared AQ a terrorist group.