CDZ The Abandonment of Civility

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The American people appear to have decided that civility is irrelevant.

Why Paul Ryan's Ode To Civility Is A Giant Fail

Are we abandoning diplomacy, both nationally and globally? Is the kind of ad hominem attacks which constitute 99% of the so-called discussion on this board becoming the norm of human communication?

Civility means behavior which reflects the values of civilization. How can we abandon these values so casually? These norms have evolved over thousands of years of human experiments in building and living in cities. Isn't their value obvious? Is the abandonment of civility likely to make the world a more violent or less violent place?

I would only disagree with the notion that we've abandoned the values casually. This seems like it has been a process.

It appears that fundamental civility has dropped in priority beneath "winning" and finger-pointing. Post 15 on this thread illustrates this, essentially saying "I will be the judge of those who deserve my civility". Once that division is made, civility breaks down because we are lowering our standards.

We can't fix any problems when we can't rise above petty differences and communicate. We can't communicate if we're only civil to those with whom we agree. Those who play this game are a big part of the problem.
.

Disagree.

Civility breaks down when those hostile to the rights and protected liberties of persons whom they oppose seek to disadvantage those persons through force of law – the fear and ignorance that result in bigotry and racism.

Bigots and racists are at liberty to express their hate and stupidity with impunity, and those who oppose such hate and stupidity are likewise at liberty to voice their opposition, where doing so does not manifest as the myth of ‘political correctness,’ nor ‘incivility.’

But when racists and bigots enact laws and measures seeking to harm those whom they hate in violation of settled and accepted Constitutional jurisprudence, it is the violators who have abandoned civility, and forfeited consideration thereof, as their hatred and stupidity can be appropriately denounced, where doing so is not the judgment of an individual, but an objective, factual determination consistent with, and authorized by, the law.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

There is no such thing as ‘political correctness’;

This kind of dishonesty also impedes communication and civility.
.

It’s this sort of nonsense and demagoguery that undermines factual, productive debate.

 

[Mac1958]

The American people appear to have decided that civility is irrelevant.

Why Paul Ryan's Ode To Civility Is A Giant Fail

Are we abandoning diplomacy, both nationally and globally? Is the kind of ad hominem attacks which constitute 99% of the so-called discussion on this board becoming the norm of human communication?

Civility means behavior which reflects the values of civilization. How can we abandon these values so casually? These norms have evolved over thousands of years of human experiments in building and living in cities. Isn't their value obvious? Is the abandonment of civility likely to make the world a more violent or less violent place?

I would only disagree with the notion that we've abandoned the values casually. This seems like it has been a process.

It appears that fundamental civility has dropped in priority beneath "winning" and finger-pointing. Post 15 on this thread illustrates this, essentially saying "I will be the judge of those who deserve my civility". Once that division is made, civility breaks down because we are lowering our standards.

We can't fix any problems when we can't rise above petty differences and communicate. We can't communicate if we're only civil to those with whom we agree. Those who play this game are a big part of the problem.
.

Disagree.

Civility breaks down when those hostile to the rights and protected liberties of persons whom they oppose seek to disadvantage those persons through force of law – the fear and ignorance that result in bigotry and racism.

Bigots and racists are at liberty to express their hate and stupidity with impunity, and those who oppose such hate and stupidity are likewise at liberty to voice their opposition, where doing so does not manifest as the myth of ‘political correctness,’ nor ‘incivility.’

But when racists and bigots enact laws and measures seeking to harm those whom they hate in violation of settled and accepted Constitutional jurisprudence, it is the violators who have abandoned civility, and forfeited consideration thereof, as their hatred and stupidity can be appropriately denounced, where doing so is not the judgment of an individual, but an objective, factual determination consistent with, and authorized by, the law.

An adult chooses to be civil or uncivil. Some adults, as you demonstrate, will decide who deserves civility, based on that person's own sense of values.

Other adults realize that civility is at the very foundation of communication, and that communication is at the very foundation of fixing a problem. They will not hide behind laws or other restrictions, they have the capacity to rise above their emotions in favor of treating others as they would want to be treated.

To these people, the Golden Rule is a constant, not something they only employ with those who agree with them. That's part of being an adult.
.

 

[Mac1958]

There is no such thing as ‘political correctness’;

This kind of dishonesty also impedes communication and civility.
.

It’s this sort of nonsense and demagoguery that undermines factual, productive debate.

I'd be more than happy to whip out my list of honest liberals who would disagree with you, including President Obama, but a certain person here will more than likely "punish" me for doing so.

The fact remains, you know well of that list - even though you avoid discussing it.
.

 

[320 Years of History]

the Golden Rule is a constant, not something they only employ with those who agree with them.

 

[Skull Pilot]

We are born charming, fresh and spontaneous and must be civilized before we are fit to participate in society.
― Judith Martin​

I think too few folks these days appreciate the importance of civility. Moreover, too few appreciate the privileges that accompany it, but then they wouldn't if they've never learned what it means to lose them.

To this day I recall Daddy's instructions the evening after I'd made an unruly outburst at school. I was a sixth grader.

I was in my room doing homework when Daddy knocked gently on my door, opened it, greeted me, came in, sat down, and began speaking in the softest tone and most tersely measured drawl I've heard from him before or since.

"You will leave this room only to go to school during the next month. Louise will deliver your meals and return thirty minutes later to collect the dishes which you will have set outside your door for her to collect. Do not leave food on your plate, and do not make her knock."

He then presented an alarm clock he'd brought with him and showed me how to set it.

"Helen will be up directly to show you how to make your bed and to leave fresh linens. You will wake on time to go to school in time to bathe, eat and make your bed everyday. You will change the linens every third morning and place the used ones outside your door. Do you have enough toilet paper to last the month?"

"Yes, sir," I replied after going to the restroom to check.

"A driver will take you to and from school. Upon your return to school Monday, you will apologize contritely to your teacher and classmates for your surly misbehavior. Do not allow me to discover you failed to do so."

"During the next month you will study your classwork, and you will read this book, after which you will religiously comport yourself accordingly."

With that he tossed a wrapped book, Emily Post's Etiquette, onto my desk, and then continued.

"You will henceforth nevah publicly embarrass your mother or me. Have you anything you care to ask or say to your mother or me before your sequester commences?"

I apologized to him asked him if I might do so with Mother. He told me she'd be up shortly to receive my apology. With that he gently closed the door and left.

The gardner showed up next and removed my stereo and television. Then the housekeeper appeared with linens and showed me how to make my bed and deposited two other sets on the and took the dogs' beds from my room. She told me she'd leave a week's fresh linens on my desk as needed.

Mother appeared not long after and I apologized to her. That was the last I saw or spoke with either of my parents, the housekeeper, the cat, the dogs, the gardener and cook for a month.

Each school day I'd go downstairs to get in the cab knowing there had to be at least three people, two dogs, and a cat somewhere, yet there was not a soul to be seen or heard in the house. The driver wouldn't even talk to me other than to, on the my first attempt to engage him, tell me he'd been told I was to be silent and so was he.

On the Monday when I first returned to school, I was grateful to be there for at least I got to see other people whom I knew. Much to my dismay, Daddy's anger with and authority over me reached even there. He'd somehow managed to have my seat moved to the back of every class and set in a row unto itself. Also,I was forbad going to recess.

That was the most miserable month of my life. I neverafter lost control of myself until I was well into adulthood.
​

I think there remain a few communities in which shunning is still practiced. IMO, there need to be more. I think it'd do folks good to learn firsthand how Hester Prynne felt. Maybe then they'd appreciate the benefits of cordiality and the privilege of being permitted to interact with others. Too many folks take for granted and assume that the rest of us have to deal with them. In nearly all cases, we do not. It's pitiful that so many in our nation, most ironically the "social media" crowd who often behave in among the most antisocial ways conceivable, have forgotten that nothing forces our cultural approbation of boors, curs, cads and cretins.

I love luxury. Some people think luxury is the opposite of poverty. It is not. Luxury lies not in richness and ornateness, but in the absence of vulgarity.
― Coco Chanel​

Gee it must have been nice growing up with servants and drivers and all manner of people to tend to your needs

 

[Skull Pilot]

The best way to be civil is to mind your own business and keep to yourself

 

[IsaacNewton]

It depends which forum you are posting to and visiting. If you post to a political forum, and generally that includes all not just this one, you will get people who, because of the anonymity and lack of accountability, will say anything to anyone at any time. Things they would never say to someone else in person.

If you are a member of other online forums or communities other than politics, you will find people far more normal and friendly. Try a poetry forum, or gardening forum, or whatever interest you have. I've belonged to a few poetry forums and almost every person, with a very few exceptions, were lovely people that you looked forward to talking to.

Politics lends itself to disagreement. I do believe politics in America has been driven into the gutter, alot more so than it was 25 years ago. I know why and I won't say as it would grate on the sensibilities of some.

Best thing to do, ignore the angst of the angries and inject cordiality and even-handedness where you can. And that does require ignoring the worst purveyors of negativity. Political back and forth will most always include some negativity, but weed out the ones who use anonymity as an excuse to vomit on others.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The American people appear to have decided that civility is irrelevant.

Why Paul Ryan's Ode To Civility Is A Giant Fail

Are we abandoning diplomacy, both nationally and globally? Is the kind of ad hominem attacks which constitute 99% of the so-called discussion on this board becoming the norm of human communication?

Civility means behavior which reflects the values of civilization. How can we abandon these values so casually? These norms have evolved over thousands of years of human experiments in building and living in cities. Isn't their value obvious? Is the abandonment of civility likely to make the world a more violent or less violent place?

I would only disagree with the notion that we've abandoned the values casually. This seems like it has been a process.

It appears that fundamental civility has dropped in priority beneath "winning" and finger-pointing. Post 15 on this thread illustrates this, essentially saying "I will be the judge of those who deserve my civility". Once that division is made, civility breaks down because we are lowering our standards.

We can't fix any problems when we can't rise above petty differences and communicate. We can't communicate if we're only civil to those with whom we agree. Those who play this game are a big part of the problem.
.

Disagree.

Civility breaks down when those hostile to the rights and protected liberties of persons whom they oppose seek to disadvantage those persons through force of law – the fear and ignorance that result in bigotry and racism.

Bigots and racists are at liberty to express their hate and stupidity with impunity, and those who oppose such hate and stupidity are likewise at liberty to voice their opposition, where doing so does not manifest as the myth of ‘political correctness,’ nor ‘incivility.’

But when racists and bigots enact laws and measures seeking to harm those whom they hate in violation of settled and accepted Constitutional jurisprudence, it is the violators who have abandoned civility, and forfeited consideration thereof, as their hatred and stupidity can be appropriately denounced, where doing so is not the judgment of an individual, but an objective, factual determination consistent with, and authorized by, the law.

An adult chooses to be civil or uncivil. Some adults, as you demonstrate, will decide who deserves civility, based on that person's own sense of values.

Other adults realize that civility is at the very foundation of communication, and that communication is at the very foundation of fixing a problem. They will not hide behind laws or other restrictions, they have the capacity to rise above their emotions in favor of treating others as they would want to be treated.

To these people, the Golden Rule is a constant, not something they only employ with those who agree with them. That's part of being an adult.
.

The intent of the myth of ‘political correctness’ is to undermine thoughtful, productive debate with emotionalism and demagoguery – it is a classic red herring fallacy.

That fact that ‘political correctness’ is a myth is proven daily on this very forum – and in countless other venues – where bigots and racists express their ignorance, hate, and stupidity openly and with impunity.

The related myth of a ‘chilling effect’ with regard to hate speech and expressions of racism and bigotry is likewise demonstrated to be false.

Purveyors of the myth of ‘political correctness’ either fear or don’t understand the nature of free and open debate in the context of private society and our free and democratic society.

Someone who seeks to deny gay Americans their right to marry for no other reason than their being gay is a bigot – that’s an objective, settled, and accepted fact of Constitutional law, not ‘subjective opinion’ or ‘personal judgment.’

Indeed, purveyors of the myth of ‘political correctness’ are the ones being dishonest, particularly with themselves.

 

[Divine Wind]

....Civility means behavior which reflects the values of civilization. How can we abandon these values so casually? These norms have evolved over thousands of years of human experiments in building and living in cities. Isn't their value obvious? Is the abandonment of civility likely to make the world a more violent or less violent place?

I've been watching the shift for a few decades now and think it's a consequence of television and the information age. Political leaders constantly seek sound bites. Since controversy attracts the most attention, those same leaders do their best to attract attention with controversy. The public simply emulates our leaders.

 

[Mac1958]

The American people appear to have decided that civility is irrelevant.

Why Paul Ryan's Ode To Civility Is A Giant Fail

Are we abandoning diplomacy, both nationally and globally? Is the kind of ad hominem attacks which constitute 99% of the so-called discussion on this board becoming the norm of human communication?

Civility means behavior which reflects the values of civilization. How can we abandon these values so casually? These norms have evolved over thousands of years of human experiments in building and living in cities. Isn't their value obvious? Is the abandonment of civility likely to make the world a more violent or less violent place?

I would only disagree with the notion that we've abandoned the values casually. This seems like it has been a process.

It appears that fundamental civility has dropped in priority beneath "winning" and finger-pointing. Post 15 on this thread illustrates this, essentially saying "I will be the judge of those who deserve my civility". Once that division is made, civility breaks down because we are lowering our standards.

We can't fix any problems when we can't rise above petty differences and communicate. We can't communicate if we're only civil to those with whom we agree. Those who play this game are a big part of the problem.
.

Disagree.

Civility breaks down when those hostile to the rights and protected liberties of persons whom they oppose seek to disadvantage those persons through force of law – the fear and ignorance that result in bigotry and racism.

Bigots and racists are at liberty to express their hate and stupidity with impunity, and those who oppose such hate and stupidity are likewise at liberty to voice their opposition, where doing so does not manifest as the myth of ‘political correctness,’ nor ‘incivility.’

But when racists and bigots enact laws and measures seeking to harm those whom they hate in violation of settled and accepted Constitutional jurisprudence, it is the violators who have abandoned civility, and forfeited consideration thereof, as their hatred and stupidity can be appropriately denounced, where doing so is not the judgment of an individual, but an objective, factual determination consistent with, and authorized by, the law.

An adult chooses to be civil or uncivil. Some adults, as you demonstrate, will decide who deserves civility, based on that person's own sense of values.

Other adults realize that civility is at the very foundation of communication, and that communication is at the very foundation of fixing a problem. They will not hide behind laws or other restrictions, they have the capacity to rise above their emotions in favor of treating others as they would want to be treated.

To these people, the Golden Rule is a constant, not something they only employ with those who agree with them. That's part of being an adult.
.

The intent of the myth of ‘political correctness’ is to undermine thoughtful, productive debate with emotionalism and demagoguery – it is a classic red herring fallacy.

That fact that ‘political correctness’ is a myth is proven daily on this very forum – and in countless other venues – where bigots and racists express their ignorance, hate, and stupidity openly and with impunity.

The related myth of a ‘chilling effect’ with regard to hate speech and expressions of racism and bigotry is likewise demonstrated to be false.

Purveyors of the myth of ‘political correctness’ either fear or don’t understand the nature of free and open debate in the context of private society and our free and democratic society.

Someone who seeks to deny gay Americans their right to marry for no other reason than their being gay is a bigot – that’s an objective, settled, and accepted fact of Constitutional law, not ‘subjective opinion’ or ‘personal judgment.’

Indeed, purveyors of the myth of ‘political correctness’ are the ones being dishonest, particularly with themselves.

Sure, if you feel that President Obama and the others in my long (and ever-expanding) list of liberals who feel that PC not only exists, but has gone too far, are liars, that's your call. I think I'll side with them.

And I'm not sure why you want to continue this conversation. I merely pointed out what you said, and you have not denied it: You are the type of person who will pick and choose to whom you will be civil. That's who you are, we both agree. No need to defend it.
.

 

[Mac1958]

....Civility means behavior which reflects the values of civilization. How can we abandon these values so casually? These norms have evolved over thousands of years of human experiments in building and living in cities. Isn't their value obvious? Is the abandonment of civility likely to make the world a more violent or less violent place?

I've been watching the shift for a few decades now and think it's a consequence of television and the information age. Political leaders constantly seek sound bites. Since controversy attracts the most attention, those same leaders do their best to attract attention with controversy. The public simply emulates our leaders.

Yeah, good points. If it can't fit in a sound bite or on a bumper sticker, it can't be used. That lends itself to simplistic, binary thought.
.

 

[LoneLaugher]

C Clayton Jones has never been anything but civil towards Mac.

I wonder if Mac would agree with that statement?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

There is no such thing as ‘political correctness’;

This kind of dishonesty also impedes communication and civility.
.

It’s this sort of nonsense and demagoguery that undermines factual, productive debate.

I'd be more than happy to whip out my list of honest liberals who would disagree with you, including President Obama, but a certain person here will more than likely "punish" me for doing so.

The fact remains, you know well of that list - even though you avoid discussing it.
.

The ultimate idiocy of the myth of ‘political correctness’ is that neither bigotry nor racism exist, both mere ‘contrivances’ of the ‘intolerant left’ – when in fact decades of Constitutional jurisprudence proves that to indeed not be the case.

Moreover, the myth of ‘political correctness’ runs contrary to the idea of civility, where to not confront the incivility that manifests as racism and bigotry out of fear of being accused of being ‘politically correct’ undermines any useful debate as to what constitutes civility or its nature.

 

[Mac1958]

There is no such thing as ‘political correctness’;

This kind of dishonesty also impedes communication and civility.
.

It’s this sort of nonsense and demagoguery that undermines factual, productive debate.

I'd be more than happy to whip out my list of honest liberals who would disagree with you, including President Obama, but a certain person here will more than likely "punish" me for doing so.

The fact remains, you know well of that list - even though you avoid discussing it.
.

The ultimate idiocy of the myth of ‘political correctness’ is that neither bigotry nor racism exist, both mere ‘contrivances’ of the ‘intolerant left’ – when in fact decades of Constitutional jurisprudence proves that to indeed not be the case.

Moreover, the myth of ‘political correctness’ runs contrary to the idea of civility, where to not confront the incivility that manifests as racism and bigotry out of fear of being accused of being ‘politically correct’ undermines any useful debate as to what constitutes civility or its nature.

Obama on Political Correctness: ‘A Recipe for Dogmatism’

On how many other issues do you feel President Obama is blatantly lying? Just this one?

.

 

[LoneLaugher]

There is no such thing as ‘political correctness’;

This kind of dishonesty also impedes communication and civility.
.

It’s this sort of nonsense and demagoguery that undermines factual, productive debate.

I'd be more than happy to whip out my list of honest liberals who would disagree with you, including President Obama, but a certain person here will more than likely "punish" me for doing so.

The fact remains, you know well of that list - even though you avoid discussing it.
.

The ultimate idiocy of the myth of ‘political correctness’ is that neither bigotry nor racism exist, both mere ‘contrivances’ of the ‘intolerant left’ – when in fact decades of Constitutional jurisprudence proves that to indeed not be the case.

Moreover, the myth of ‘political correctness’ runs contrary to the idea of civility, where to not confront the incivility that manifests as racism and bigotry out of fear of being accused of being ‘politically correct’ undermines any useful debate as to what constitutes civility or its nature.

Obama on Political Correctness: ‘A Recipe for Dogmatism’

On how many other issues do you feel President Obama is blatantly lying? Just this one?
.

Correct me if I am wrong......but .....don't you consider Obama to be one of the people who promotes PC?

 

[there4eyeM]

If only 'PC' stood for 'polite clarity'!

 

[LoneLaugher]

There is no such thing as ‘political correctness’;

This kind of dishonesty also impedes communication and civility.
.

It’s this sort of nonsense and demagoguery that undermines factual, productive debate.

I'd be more than happy to whip out my list of honest liberals who would disagree with you, including President Obama, but a certain person here will more than likely "punish" me for doing so.

The fact remains, you know well of that list - even though you avoid discussing it.
.

The ultimate idiocy of the myth of ‘political correctness’ is that neither bigotry nor racism exist, both mere ‘contrivances’ of the ‘intolerant left’ – when in fact decades of Constitutional jurisprudence proves that to indeed not be the case.

Moreover, the myth of ‘political correctness’ runs contrary to the idea of civility, where to not confront the incivility that manifests as racism and bigotry out of fear of being accused of being ‘politically correct’ undermines any useful debate as to what constitutes civility or its nature.

Obama on Political Correctness: ‘A Recipe for Dogmatism’

On how many other issues do you feel President Obama is blatantly lying? Just this one?
.

Obama's words from the link:

"I care about civil rights and I care about kids not being discriminated against or having swastikas painted on their doors or nooses hung — thinking it's a joke. I think it's entirely appropriate for — any institution, including universities, to say, "Don't walk around in blackface. It offends people. Don't wear a headdress and beat your chest if Native American students have said, you know, 'This hurts us. This bothers us." There's nothing wrong with that."

Do you agree?

Also....the Op Ed cited is from a guy who makes his living whining about PC. You should broaden your horizons.

 

[Two Thumbs]

The American people appear to have decided that civility is irrelevant.

Why Paul Ryan's Ode To Civility Is A Giant Fail

Are we abandoning diplomacy, both nationally and globally? Is the kind of ad hominem attacks which constitute 99% of the so-called discussion on this board becoming the norm of human communication?

Civility means behavior which reflects the values of civilization. How can we abandon these values so casually? These norms have evolved over thousands of years of human experiments in building and living in cities. Isn't their value obvious? Is the abandonment of civility likely to make the world a more violent or less violent place?

The argument can be made that in order for civility to be warranted, those seeking civility should merit it – where bigots, racists, and other purveyors of hate have indeed failed to do so.

that's why we treat you so poorly.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Political correctness has replaced politenes..

politeness relyied on an innate consderation.

political correctness, is rule based and judaic. You can be litigious and be a c*nt.

Manners rock, kids.

Disagree.

There is no such thing as ‘political correctness’; in fact, hate speech and speech advocating for bigotry and racism are entitled to Constitutional protections.

There exists nowhere in the United States a regulatory measure ‘controlling’ the ‘appropriateness’ of speech, and there are no ‘punitive measures’ authorized by any jurisdiction for speech considered to be ‘politically incorrect.’

when a person can't be the least bit honest, not in the slightest, they don't deserve civil discourse and in fact invite blatant disrespect at the level they have earned.