The argument for chokeholds.

[Billy_Kinetta]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female cops just shooting people.

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female police officers just shooting people. That appears to be done overwhelmingly by male officers.

It happens.

Obviously it's a trait of being a cop, not a trait of being female.

One of the toughest soldiers I ever knew was a female. But she was still smaller and weaker than most men.
The people whose job it is to sometimes physically subdue other people should not be. I've seen some scrawny little male cops too, and the last one I saw was definitely a serious handgunner; I could tell from his gear and his rig and how he carried it. That guy knows he is more likely to have to shoot.

Brawn isn't always the answer.

But when it is, social skills won't substitute.

You can't negotiate from a position of weakness, and it's all a negotiation.

Took three men to get George Floyd down after dragging him out of their cruiser.

Right...... how many females (or males) half their size would it have taken?

They may not have drug him out of the cruiser once he was in it.

Dude, who cares?

Physics is physics..... good big people beat good smaller people all day, every day. If you're in a job where violence is integral to the paycheck, you need to be bigger and stronger than most, period.

Bruce Lee wasn't so big.

I love enter the dragon as much as the next guy. But could Lee actually beat a guy whose a couple weight classes higher than him with comparable training, probably not. Bruce’s Lees legend gets inflated a bit. I’m not saying Lee wasn’t good, just that we only saw him beat up roided out gorillas bigger than him when it was choreographed.

Lee's big contribution was cross training; few were doing it at the time and none of them were famous like him.

A lot of people play chess but very few are masters. Hardly anyone fights but everyone THINKS they are masters.

A master is one who knows he is a student.

 

[pknopp]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female cops just shooting people.

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female police officers just shooting people. That appears to be done overwhelmingly by male officers.

It happens.

Obviously it's a trait of being a cop, not a trait of being female.

One of the toughest soldiers I ever knew was a female. But she was still smaller and weaker than most men.
The people whose job it is to sometimes physically subdue other people should not be. I've seen some scrawny little male cops too, and the last one I saw was definitely a serious handgunner; I could tell from his gear and his rig and how he carried it. That guy knows he is more likely to have to shoot.

Brawn isn't always the answer.

But when it is, social skills won't substitute.

You can't negotiate from a position of weakness, and it's all a negotiation.

Took three men to get George Floyd down after dragging him out of their cruiser.

Right...... how many females (or males) half their size would it have taken?

They may not have drug him out of the cruiser once he was in it.

Dude, who cares?

Physics is physics..... good big people beat good smaller people all day, every day. If you're in a job where violence is integral to the paycheck, you need to be bigger and stronger than most, period.

Bruce Lee wasn't so big.

I love enter the dragon as much as the next guy. But could Lee actually beat a guy whose a couple weight classes higher than him with comparable training, probably not. Bruce’s Lees legend gets inflated a bit. I’m not saying Lee wasn’t good, just that we only saw him beat up roided out gorillas bigger than him when it was choreographed.

I thought we were discussing training police officers? If that is what we are discussing "comparable training" generally isn't in it the picture.

 

[sakinago]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female cops just shooting people.

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female police officers just shooting people. That appears to be done overwhelmingly by male officers.

It happens.

Obviously it's a trait of being a cop, not a trait of being female.

One of the toughest soldiers I ever knew was a female. But she was still smaller and weaker than most men.
The people whose job it is to sometimes physically subdue other people should not be. I've seen some scrawny little male cops too, and the last one I saw was definitely a serious handgunner; I could tell from his gear and his rig and how he carried it. That guy knows he is more likely to have to shoot.

Brawn isn't always the answer.

But when it is, social skills won't substitute.

You can't negotiate from a position of weakness, and it's all a negotiation.

Took three men to get George Floyd down after dragging him out of their cruiser.

Right...... how many females (or males) half their size would it have taken?

They may not have drug him out of the cruiser once he was in it.

Dude, who cares?

Physics is physics..... good big people beat good smaller people all day, every day. If you're in a job where violence is integral to the paycheck, you need to be bigger and stronger than most, period.

Bruce Lee wasn't so big.

I love enter the dragon as much as the next guy. But could Lee actually beat a guy whose a couple weight classes higher than him with comparable training, probably not. Bruce’s Lees legend gets inflated a bit. I’m not saying Lee wasn’t good, just that we only saw him beat up roided out gorillas bigger than him when it was choreographed.

I thought we were discussing training police officers? If that is what we are discussing "comparable training" generally isn't in it the picture.

You’re the one who cited a movie star in choreographed fighting scenes as evidence of someone smaller being able to take on bigger people.

 

[pknopp]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female cops just shooting people.

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female police officers just shooting people. That appears to be done overwhelmingly by male officers.

It happens.

Obviously it's a trait of being a cop, not a trait of being female.

One of the toughest soldiers I ever knew was a female. But she was still smaller and weaker than most men.
The people whose job it is to sometimes physically subdue other people should not be. I've seen some scrawny little male cops too, and the last one I saw was definitely a serious handgunner; I could tell from his gear and his rig and how he carried it. That guy knows he is more likely to have to shoot.

Brawn isn't always the answer.

But when it is, social skills won't substitute.

You can't negotiate from a position of weakness, and it's all a negotiation.

Took three men to get George Floyd down after dragging him out of their cruiser.

Right...... how many females (or males) half their size would it have taken?

They may not have drug him out of the cruiser once he was in it.

Dude, who cares?

Physics is physics..... good big people beat good smaller people all day, every day. If you're in a job where violence is integral to the paycheck, you need to be bigger and stronger than most, period.

Bruce Lee wasn't so big.

I love enter the dragon as much as the next guy. But could Lee actually beat a guy whose a couple weight classes higher than him with comparable training, probably not. Bruce’s Lees legend gets inflated a bit. I’m not saying Lee wasn’t good, just that we only saw him beat up roided out gorillas bigger than him when it was choreographed.

I thought we were discussing training police officers? If that is what we are discussing "comparable training" generally isn't in it the picture.

You’re the one who cited a movie star in choreographed fighting scenes as evidence of someone smaller being able to take on bigger people.

And you disagree without adding qualifiers?

 

[Reverend_Hellh0und]

You guys are the experts. Fine. I give up. I will allow chokeholds. But in the interest of compromise, I expect something back.

If no injury etc occurs, the person choked out can not complain of police brutality. No charges may be filed against the officer. However, if there is damage, the charge is attempted murder on the cop. Fair enough? I mean, it is apparently so easy to put on someone, and almost impossible to actually injure the victim of the technique. So meet me half way. Oh, and if the suspect dies, the charge is murder. Meet me half way.

1. I don't believe in almost all cases cops should be permitted to initiate force on non violent crimes.
2. I believe that in order to be authorized to use such force including joint submissions and blood chokes you need to be at minimum a blue belt in jiu-jitsu.
3. All officers need bodycams and it should be a felony to turn it off or tamper with it.
4. If an officer uses force he needs to be prepared to be able to articulate the legal reasons he was authorized to do so.

 

[Reverend_Hellh0und]

Bruce Lee wasn't so big.

He was an actor. bullshido master, never really took any shots. basically taught sped up Tai chi. movies were fun to watch but he was probably only twice as effective as steven segal.

 

[sakinago]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female cops just shooting people.

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female police officers just shooting people. That appears to be done overwhelmingly by male officers.

It happens.

Obviously it's a trait of being a cop, not a trait of being female.

One of the toughest soldiers I ever knew was a female. But she was still smaller and weaker than most men.
The people whose job it is to sometimes physically subdue other people should not be. I've seen some scrawny little male cops too, and the last one I saw was definitely a serious handgunner; I could tell from his gear and his rig and how he carried it. That guy knows he is more likely to have to shoot.

Brawn isn't always the answer.

But when it is, social skills won't substitute.

You can't negotiate from a position of weakness, and it's all a negotiation.

Took three men to get George Floyd down after dragging him out of their cruiser.

Right...... how many females (or males) half their size would it have taken?

They may not have drug him out of the cruiser once he was in it.

Dude, who cares?

Physics is physics..... good big people beat good smaller people all day, every day. If you're in a job where violence is integral to the paycheck, you need to be bigger and stronger than most, period.

Bruce Lee wasn't so big.

I love enter the dragon as much as the next guy. But could Lee actually beat a guy whose a couple weight classes higher than him with comparable training, probably not. Bruce’s Lees legend gets inflated a bit. I’m not saying Lee wasn’t good, just that we only saw him beat up roided out gorillas bigger than him when it was choreographed.

I thought we were discussing training police officers? If that is what we are discussing "comparable training" generally isn't in it the picture.

You’re the one who cited a movie star in choreographed fighting scenes as evidence of someone smaller being able to take on bigger people.

And you disagree without adding qualifiers?

Disagree with what? That fact that Bruce lee would beat most fighters in all other weight classes IRL? Yeah I’d disagree with that. That doesn’t mean that lee was a fraud or that he wasn’t very influential and changed martial arts for the better. Just that weight classes matter in striking. That’s why there are less knockouts in the lighter weight classes in boxing or MMA. Plus the subject matter is smaller women, Bruce lee is a man. A 150 lb male power lifter can out lift a 170 lb female power lifter. Testosterone is a PED for a reason. Men have been naturally receiving large amounts of PEDs since their puberty vs women. Testosterone not only increases muscle mass, but also bone density and aggression.

 

[pknopp]

Bruce Lee wasn't so big.

He was an actor. bullshido master, never really took any shots. basically taught sped up Tai chi. movies were fun to watch but he was probably only twice as effective as steven segal.

So a trained fighter can't beat a larger opponent?

 

[pknopp]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female cops just shooting people.

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female police officers just shooting people. That appears to be done overwhelmingly by male officers.

It happens.

Obviously it's a trait of being a cop, not a trait of being female.

One of the toughest soldiers I ever knew was a female. But she was still smaller and weaker than most men.
The people whose job it is to sometimes physically subdue other people should not be. I've seen some scrawny little male cops too, and the last one I saw was definitely a serious handgunner; I could tell from his gear and his rig and how he carried it. That guy knows he is more likely to have to shoot.

Brawn isn't always the answer.

But when it is, social skills won't substitute.

You can't negotiate from a position of weakness, and it's all a negotiation.

Took three men to get George Floyd down after dragging him out of their cruiser.

Right...... how many females (or males) half their size would it have taken?

They may not have drug him out of the cruiser once he was in it.

Dude, who cares?

Physics is physics..... good big people beat good smaller people all day, every day. If you're in a job where violence is integral to the paycheck, you need to be bigger and stronger than most, period.

Bruce Lee wasn't so big.

I love enter the dragon as much as the next guy. But could Lee actually beat a guy whose a couple weight classes higher than him with comparable training, probably not. Bruce’s Lees legend gets inflated a bit. I’m not saying Lee wasn’t good, just that we only saw him beat up roided out gorillas bigger than him when it was choreographed.

I thought we were discussing training police officers? If that is what we are discussing "comparable training" generally isn't in it the picture.

You’re the one who cited a movie star in choreographed fighting scenes as evidence of someone smaller being able to take on bigger people.

And you disagree without adding qualifiers?

Disagree with what? That fact that Bruce lee would beat most fighters in all other weight classes IRL?

I'm not interested in you adding qualifications to make your argument.

 

[Unkotare]

...basically taught sped up Tai chi. ...

Wow. Not even close.

 

[Reverend_Hellh0und]

Bruce Lee wasn't so big.

He was an actor. bullshido master, never really took any shots. basically taught sped up Tai chi. movies were fun to watch but he was probably only twice as effective as steven segal.

So a trained fighter can't beat a larger opponent?

a lighter trained fighter can indeed beat a larger untrained person, however, if both people are equally trained, weight and strength comes into play.

 

[pknopp]

Bruce Lee wasn't so big.

He was an actor. bullshido master, never really took any shots. basically taught sped up Tai chi. movies were fun to watch but he was probably only twice as effective as steven segal.

So a trained fighter can't beat a larger opponent?

a lighter trained fighter can indeed beat a larger untrained person, however, if both people are equally trained, weight and strength comes into play.

Which isn't what lead to the topic. It was said that only large brawny guys make good police officers.

 

[pknopp]

NYPD cop, first arrested under new chokehold law, freed without bail after surrendering in violent Queens boardwalk bust

Officer David Afanador, suspended shortly after the Sunday incident, was charged with strangulation and attempted strangulation at a Queens Criminal Court appearance.

www.nydailynews.com

 

[basquebromance]

the left want to defund the police

i say let's abolish the thought police

 

[Reverend_Hellh0und]

NYPD cop, first arrested under new chokehold law, freed without bail after surrendering in violent Queens boardwalk bust

Officer David Afanador, suspended shortly after the Sunday incident, was charged with strangulation and attempted strangulation at a Queens Criminal Court appearance.

www.nydailynews.com

That seems to have been a headlock, and a perfect example why they should be blue belts in jits omg that was horrible.

 

[sakinago]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female cops just shooting people.

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female police officers just shooting people. That appears to be done overwhelmingly by male officers.

It happens.

Obviously it's a trait of being a cop, not a trait of being female.

One of the toughest soldiers I ever knew was a female. But she was still smaller and weaker than most men.
The people whose job it is to sometimes physically subdue other people should not be. I've seen some scrawny little male cops too, and the last one I saw was definitely a serious handgunner; I could tell from his gear and his rig and how he carried it. That guy knows he is more likely to have to shoot.

Brawn isn't always the answer.

But when it is, social skills won't substitute.

You can't negotiate from a position of weakness, and it's all a negotiation.

Took three men to get George Floyd down after dragging him out of their cruiser.

Right...... how many females (or males) half their size would it have taken?

They may not have drug him out of the cruiser once he was in it.

Dude, who cares?

Physics is physics..... good big people beat good smaller people all day, every day. If you're in a job where violence is integral to the paycheck, you need to be bigger and stronger than most, period.

Bruce Lee wasn't so big.

I love enter the dragon as much as the next guy. But could Lee actually beat a guy whose a couple weight classes higher than him with comparable training, probably not. Bruce’s Lees legend gets inflated a bit. I’m not saying Lee wasn’t good, just that we only saw him beat up roided out gorillas bigger than him when it was choreographed.

I thought we were discussing training police officers? If that is what we are discussing "comparable training" generally isn't in it the picture.

You’re the one who cited a movie star in choreographed fighting scenes as evidence of someone smaller being able to take on bigger people.

And you disagree without adding qualifiers?

Disagree with what? That fact that Bruce lee would beat most fighters in all other weight classes IRL?

I'm not interested in you adding qualifications to make your argument.

I don’t even know which arguments you’re talking about. You’re basically telling me to make an argument without being able to point out that the events in Enter the Dragon didn’t really happen. You might as well be arguing that Capitan marvel is the strongest avenger, but I’m not allowed to point out that the avengers aren’t real. No qualifiers? You’re basically saying I can’t be specific in language and reflect reality in my arguments...um ok....maybe USMB isn’t you’re best outlet. Maybe you should just stick to twitter.

We have an experiment where we can truly test what in martial arts works, and what doesn’t work. That’s the UFC. The UFC has weight classes for a reason. Fighters get very pissed when their opponents miss weight by even a couple lbs because it’s that much of an advantage. And these days everyone needs to know BJJ, at least if they want to win.

 

[pknopp]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female cops just shooting people.

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female police officers just shooting people. That appears to be done overwhelmingly by male officers.

It happens.

Obviously it's a trait of being a cop, not a trait of being female.

One of the toughest soldiers I ever knew was a female. But she was still smaller and weaker than most men.
The people whose job it is to sometimes physically subdue other people should not be. I've seen some scrawny little male cops too, and the last one I saw was definitely a serious handgunner; I could tell from his gear and his rig and how he carried it. That guy knows he is more likely to have to shoot.

Brawn isn't always the answer.

But when it is, social skills won't substitute.

You can't negotiate from a position of weakness, and it's all a negotiation.

Took three men to get George Floyd down after dragging him out of their cruiser.

Right...... how many females (or males) half their size would it have taken?

They may not have drug him out of the cruiser once he was in it.

Dude, who cares?

Physics is physics..... good big people beat good smaller people all day, every day. If you're in a job where violence is integral to the paycheck, you need to be bigger and stronger than most, period.

Bruce Lee wasn't so big.

I love enter the dragon as much as the next guy. But could Lee actually beat a guy whose a couple weight classes higher than him with comparable training, probably not. Bruce’s Lees legend gets inflated a bit. I’m not saying Lee wasn’t good, just that we only saw him beat up roided out gorillas bigger than him when it was choreographed.

I thought we were discussing training police officers? If that is what we are discussing "comparable training" generally isn't in it the picture.

You’re the one who cited a movie star in choreographed fighting scenes as evidence of someone smaller being able to take on bigger people.

And you disagree without adding qualifiers?

Disagree with what? That fact that Bruce lee would beat most fighters in all other weight classes IRL?

I'm not interested in you adding qualifications to make your argument.

I don’t even know which arguments you’re talking about. You’re basically telling me to make an argument without being able to point out that the events in Enter the Dragon didn’t really happen. You might as well be arguing that Capitan marvel is the strongest avenger, but I’m not allowed to point out that the avengers aren’t real. No qualifiers? You’re basically saying I can’t be specific in language and reflect reality in my arguments...um ok....maybe USMB isn’t you’re best outlet. Maybe you should just stick to twitter.

We have an experiment where we can truly test what in martial arts works, and what doesn’t work. That’s the UFC. The UFC has weight classes for a reason. Fighters get very pissed when their opponents miss weight by even a couple lbs because it’s that much of an advantage. And these days everyone needs to know BJJ, at least if they want to win.

My argument was already acknowledged. A trained smaller person can beat a larger person who is not.

 

[sakinago]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female cops just shooting people.

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female police officers just shooting people. That appears to be done overwhelmingly by male officers.

It happens.

Obviously it's a trait of being a cop, not a trait of being female.

One of the toughest soldiers I ever knew was a female. But she was still smaller and weaker than most men.
The people whose job it is to sometimes physically subdue other people should not be. I've seen some scrawny little male cops too, and the last one I saw was definitely a serious handgunner; I could tell from his gear and his rig and how he carried it. That guy knows he is more likely to have to shoot.

Brawn isn't always the answer.

But when it is, social skills won't substitute.

You can't negotiate from a position of weakness, and it's all a negotiation.

Took three men to get George Floyd down after dragging him out of their cruiser.

Right...... how many females (or males) half their size would it have taken?

They may not have drug him out of the cruiser once he was in it.

Dude, who cares?

Physics is physics..... good big people beat good smaller people all day, every day. If you're in a job where violence is integral to the paycheck, you need to be bigger and stronger than most, period.

Bruce Lee wasn't so big.

I love enter the dragon as much as the next guy. But could Lee actually beat a guy whose a couple weight classes higher than him with comparable training, probably not. Bruce’s Lees legend gets inflated a bit. I’m not saying Lee wasn’t good, just that we only saw him beat up roided out gorillas bigger than him when it was choreographed.

I thought we were discussing training police officers? If that is what we are discussing "comparable training" generally isn't in it the picture.

You’re the one who cited a movie star in choreographed fighting scenes as evidence of someone smaller being able to take on bigger people.

And you disagree without adding qualifiers?

Disagree with what? That fact that Bruce lee would beat most fighters in all other weight classes IRL?

I'm not interested in you adding qualifications to make your argument.

I don’t even know which arguments you’re talking about. You’re basically telling me to make an argument without being able to point out that the events in Enter the Dragon didn’t really happen. You might as well be arguing that Capitan marvel is the strongest avenger, but I’m not allowed to point out that the avengers aren’t real. No qualifiers? You’re basically saying I can’t be specific in language and reflect reality in my arguments...um ok....maybe USMB isn’t you’re best outlet. Maybe you should just stick to twitter.

We have an experiment where we can truly test what in martial arts works, and what doesn’t work. That’s the UFC. The UFC has weight classes for a reason. Fighters get very pissed when their opponents miss weight by even a couple lbs because it’s that much of an advantage. And these days everyone needs to know BJJ, at least if they want to win.

My argument was already acknowledged. A trained smaller person can beat a larger person who is not.

Yeah cops aren’t trained though....that’s the point of the OP, and the title of the OP isn’t red herrings.

 

[pknopp]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female cops just shooting people.

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female police officers just shooting people. That appears to be done overwhelmingly by male officers.

It happens.

Obviously it's a trait of being a cop, not a trait of being female.

One of the toughest soldiers I ever knew was a female. But she was still smaller and weaker than most men.
The people whose job it is to sometimes physically subdue other people should not be. I've seen some scrawny little male cops too, and the last one I saw was definitely a serious handgunner; I could tell from his gear and his rig and how he carried it. That guy knows he is more likely to have to shoot.

Brawn isn't always the answer.

But when it is, social skills won't substitute.

You can't negotiate from a position of weakness, and it's all a negotiation.

Took three men to get George Floyd down after dragging him out of their cruiser.

Right...... how many females (or males) half their size would it have taken?

They may not have drug him out of the cruiser once he was in it.

Dude, who cares?

Physics is physics..... good big people beat good smaller people all day, every day. If you're in a job where violence is integral to the paycheck, you need to be bigger and stronger than most, period.

Bruce Lee wasn't so big.

I love enter the dragon as much as the next guy. But could Lee actually beat a guy whose a couple weight classes higher than him with comparable training, probably not. Bruce’s Lees legend gets inflated a bit. I’m not saying Lee wasn’t good, just that we only saw him beat up roided out gorillas bigger than him when it was choreographed.

I thought we were discussing training police officers? If that is what we are discussing "comparable training" generally isn't in it the picture.

You’re the one who cited a movie star in choreographed fighting scenes as evidence of someone smaller being able to take on bigger people.

And you disagree without adding qualifiers?

Disagree with what? That fact that Bruce lee would beat most fighters in all other weight classes IRL?

I'm not interested in you adding qualifications to make your argument.

I don’t even know which arguments you’re talking about. You’re basically telling me to make an argument without being able to point out that the events in Enter the Dragon didn’t really happen. You might as well be arguing that Capitan marvel is the strongest avenger, but I’m not allowed to point out that the avengers aren’t real. No qualifiers? You’re basically saying I can’t be specific in language and reflect reality in my arguments...um ok....maybe USMB isn’t you’re best outlet. Maybe you should just stick to twitter.

We have an experiment where we can truly test what in martial arts works, and what doesn’t work. That’s the UFC. The UFC has weight classes for a reason. Fighters get very pissed when their opponents miss weight by even a couple lbs because it’s that much of an advantage. And these days everyone needs to know BJJ, at least if they want to win.

My argument was already acknowledged. A trained smaller person can beat a larger person who is not.

Yeah cops aren’t trained though....that’s the point of the OP, and the title of the OP isn’t red herrings.

No, they are not. They have less training than a beautician.

 

[Reverend_Hellh0und]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female cops just shooting people.

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

No one is going to risk their own life to keep a thug safe. You disarm the police, there will be none.

When the police are the thugs you disarm them.

So you’re saying hypothetically that if you were fighting with police, you’d rather have them use a taser or baton to subdue you? Or do you just want to take “tools” away from police? That’s stupid, because now they have no choice but to escalate with a baton or taser, both are much more dangerous than these vascular chokes?

If they abuse their taser and batons you take those also.

So then they just have their guns...great thinking. Let’s make cops more nervous and make them feel completely defenseless outside of their firearm. That’s gonna be great for the paranoid schizophrenics when they harass store employees because they think the store is part of a government cabal, and get the cops called on them. Then the cops come out, which confirms to the paranoid schizo paranoia, and he fights the cops with every ounce of his being because that what he truly believes he has to do to survive. Now what are the cops supposed to do. They can’t leave him in the store. Cops can’t engage him either unless you think it’s ok for the cops to start throwing fists. I most certainly wouldn’t prefer that.

Easy. Start speaking up and demanding actions when the police abuse the tools that are gave them.

That’s happening dumbshit. Turn on the fucking news. What are the alternatives? You’re giving meaningless platitudes, not solutions. Brooks would still be alive had cops been trained in the manner I set about in the OP. But no, we have to put all chokeholds under an umbrella as “bad”. It’s utterly nonsensical. The left just wants to have anger sessions like in 1984. Their solution is to do a naked shame march game of thrones style.

I see only one person angry in this conversation and that is you.

I disagree.
I am very hard on cops when they get an attitude or abuse their power but having less capable cops is in no one's best interest. For decades we didn't want females on the force because we knew they would end up shooting people (when a guy would just slam him down and cuff him) because they couldn't handle him physically.
I want a society that has strong physically capable cops, I just don't want hardly anything to be illegal in that society, personally.

I don't see female police officers just shooting people. That appears to be done overwhelmingly by male officers.

It happens.

Obviously it's a trait of being a cop, not a trait of being female.

One of the toughest soldiers I ever knew was a female. But she was still smaller and weaker than most men.
The people whose job it is to sometimes physically subdue other people should not be. I've seen some scrawny little male cops too, and the last one I saw was definitely a serious handgunner; I could tell from his gear and his rig and how he carried it. That guy knows he is more likely to have to shoot.

Brawn isn't always the answer.

But when it is, social skills won't substitute.

You can't negotiate from a position of weakness, and it's all a negotiation.

Took three men to get George Floyd down after dragging him out of their cruiser.

Right...... how many females (or males) half their size would it have taken?

They may not have drug him out of the cruiser once he was in it.

Dude, who cares?

Physics is physics..... good big people beat good smaller people all day, every day. If you're in a job where violence is integral to the paycheck, you need to be bigger and stronger than most, period.

Bruce Lee wasn't so big.

I love enter the dragon as much as the next guy. But could Lee actually beat a guy whose a couple weight classes higher than him with comparable training, probably not. Bruce’s Lees legend gets inflated a bit. I’m not saying Lee wasn’t good, just that we only saw him beat up roided out gorillas bigger than him when it was choreographed.

I thought we were discussing training police officers? If that is what we are discussing "comparable training" generally isn't in it the picture.

You’re the one who cited a movie star in choreographed fighting scenes as evidence of someone smaller being able to take on bigger people.

And you disagree without adding qualifiers?

Disagree with what? That fact that Bruce lee would beat most fighters in all other weight classes IRL?

I'm not interested in you adding qualifications to make your argument.

I don’t even know which arguments you’re talking about. You’re basically telling me to make an argument without being able to point out that the events in Enter the Dragon didn’t really happen. You might as well be arguing that Capitan marvel is the strongest avenger, but I’m not allowed to point out that the avengers aren’t real. No qualifiers? You’re basically saying I can’t be specific in language and reflect reality in my arguments...um ok....maybe USMB isn’t you’re best outlet. Maybe you should just stick to twitter.

We have an experiment where we can truly test what in martial arts works, and what doesn’t work. That’s the UFC. The UFC has weight classes for a reason. Fighters get very pissed when their opponents miss weight by even a couple lbs because it’s that much of an advantage. And these days everyone needs to know BJJ, at least if they want to win.

ufc has its own limitations