The argument for chokeholds.

[pknopp]

Wow, where to begin. First, there is no violence that can be done to another “safely”. There are always risks. And the chokehold has a lot of risks. To be done properly, first the person doing it must be in control of their emotions, and insure that their arm is positioned properly. Otherwise damage to the throat will, not may, be the result. That damage could be significant enough to cause death. So the safe technique, if done even a little bit improperly, can result in death.

But there is more. The cop really can’t do it alone, that is to say one on one. The reason is that the baddie if he realizes what is happening will either elbow the cop, stomp on his foot, grab his nuts, or reach up and break the fingers of the locking hand. I know, I was taught to do all of those in the Army when we were doing advanced unarmed combat training.

If you break his fingers, now the cop can’t work his firearm, and is defenseless against someone who can work the firearm. So the cop can’t do it one on one.

So to apply it the situation must be perfect, and you already have to have the baddie outnumbered. But there is more isn’t there? I mean information your post full of assurances did not leave out. Even if it is done properly, there is a risk of injury or death. Probably not, but not definitely. Because we are all made differently.

One of the problems with the Rodney King arrest was that the police lied on their reports. They wrote that they used the swarm technique. When in reality they just beat on him for a while. The swarm technique is using your numbers against the offender. Everyone grabs a limb, and holds on, the people on the arms force them back to be restrained. If you have the superior numbers to effect a choke hold safely, why not go for the limbs and get the suspect restrained?

Proper positioning is vital, if the arm is off a bit, then pressure is put on the hyoid bones, and cartridge of the neck that hold the airway open. So the cop has to be behind the baddie, have his neck at shoulder height, and able to make sure his arm is positioned properly. That is a lot of things that have to go right, for the most probable outcome to even have a chance of occurring.

The problem arises when one of those things is off. The arm is mis placed, the angle is wrong, or the guy twists a little in an effort to get away. Then the safe technique becomes a lethal technique. Because no cop is going to let go and start the fight all over again to try and get a proper hold. Nobody would, I damn sure wouldn’t. He is going to keep squeezing. And those things that won’t happen, all happen. Which is why the hold was banned in so many departments.

That is the problem with the Police Apologists. They assure us that no abuses will happen, and if they do, those who abuse it will be dealt with. Only, they aren’t really dealt with, and the abuses become the norm. We saw the same damned things time and time again. The police needed SWAT teams for extreme situations. Hostage Situations, Terrorist Attacks, and the most extreme events any of us could imagine. Once they had the SWAT teams, the cops figured why not use them? So every search warrant became an excuse to bring out the SWAT team. And every Search Warrant was massaged to show it was really dangerous and the baddies will destroy evidence or kill cops if they are given any warning. Next thing you know, Breanna Taylor is dead, because the Cops screwed up. But that won’t happen you know. It will be fine. The cops will never abuse the no knock warrants. They will only use them in the most extreme searches.

So no, I am not going to be one of those to champion the choke hold. Because it is dangerous unless it is applied perfectly, and even then it is dangerous. I am not going to back down an inch. Not one inch. We have given up yards, hell miles of our freedoms and rights to the extreme circumstances arguments over the last few decades. No. More.

As I noted.......the police abused the tool of no knock warrants and now it is being taken from them so in the end the police should be upset with their fellow officers that abused the tools gave to them.

Instead they protect them.

It has always been that way in history. We have it, we might as well use it. In war, we argued that the enemy would do it to us, so we would be justified in doing it to them. Every time we see an excuse argued in court for the Police. This was an extreme circumstance, and it needed to be done in this one instance. When the court agrees, the extreme, becomes routine.

In North Carolina, a cop pulled a car over for not having a front license plate. The state the car was from did not issue, nor require, front plates. The cop found drugs. But he was enforcing a non existent law. The court decided that ignorance, on the part of the cop, was just fine. Sure enough, now cops are happily ignorant. If they don’t know they are enforcing non existent laws, they can do more. How many videos are on You Tube of cops swearing that it is illegal to record them? Despite the fact that it is not illegal Anywhere in public.

For years now I have been saying that the pendulum is going to swing, and the cops could minimize the distance it will go by effecting the changes needed themselves. Now, the changes are going to steamroll the cops, and it will be a lot more, and a lot worse.

Not to beat this point but after arguing this for a long time I'm a bit surprised to actually see someone else understand.

It's really simple. The police need to quit defending other officers when they do wrong. It's not that hard. Unfortunately for many it seems they are not able to understand how what they did was wrong. Many have a warped mindset. As you note, there is no law not worth breaking or making up to catch someone with a little pot. Tamir Rice was a kid playing with a toy gun. Philandro Castillo was driving while black. Sandra Bland had the audacity to not show "enough" respect. Eric Garner had sold some "loose cigarettes". Alton Sterling was selling some CD's in a parking lot. Breonna Taylor had done nothing. All dead.

 

[pknopp]

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

No, they weren't within their rights but they were excused anyway.

The cop that shot Castillo was a coward. The cop that shot Daniel Shaver is a sick person who should never be allowed to handle a gun ever again.

Hence we have riots. Stop the things you mention and we can stop the riots.

By law, yes they were. Which is yet another reason why governments should be feared and perpetually reigned in. Government is the paving company that paves the road to hell on good intentions. The laws that let cops get away with this behavior we’re created because criminals found it was more profitable to shoot cops when they got pulled over than get nabbed for their arrest warrant or for the drugs they were smuggling.

The only case I can recall off the top of my head where someone got away with killing a police officer is when they killed one of their own in Baltimore awhile back. Since that is the case I'm missing how it is profitable.

I’m not going to rely on your anecdotadal

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

No, they weren't within their rights but they were excused anyway.

The cop that shot Castillo was a coward. The cop that shot Daniel Shaver is a sick person who should never be allowed to handle a gun ever again.

Hence we have riots. Stop the things you mention and we can stop the riots.

By law, yes they were. Which is yet another reason why governments should be feared and perpetually reigned in. Government is the paving company that paves the road to hell on good intentions. The laws that let cops get away with this behavior we’re created because criminals found it was more profitable to shoot cops when they got pulled over than get nabbed for their arrest warrant or for the drugs they were smuggling.

The only case I can recall off the top of my head where someone got away with killing a police officer is when they killed one of their own in Baltimore awhile back. Since that is the case I'm missing how it is profitable.

Well we’re not going to rely on the top of your head as evidence. These standards, misguided as they may be, were put in place for a reason. Because cops were dying, and still are. 31 have been killed this year alone.

It's not anecdotal.

Disgraced Baltimore officer says detective slain before testifying was also corrupt

No one let's a person continue on like nothing happened when they kill an officer. The problem isn't that the person is dead as much as no one being held accountable.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

If cops want to be able to use choke holds, they need to be at minimum a blue belt in jitsu.

Do you have any clue how long that takes?

 

[pknopp]

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

No, they weren't within their rights but they were excused anyway.

The cop that shot Castillo was a coward. The cop that shot Daniel Shaver is a sick person who should never be allowed to handle a gun ever again.

Hence we have riots. Stop the things you mention and we can stop the riots.

By law, yes they were. Which is yet another reason why governments should be feared and perpetually reigned in. Government is the paving company that paves the road to hell on good intentions. The laws that let cops get away with this behavior we’re created because criminals found it was more profitable to shoot cops when they got pulled over than get nabbed for their arrest warrant or for the drugs they were smuggling.

The only case I can recall off the top of my head where someone got away with killing a police officer is when they killed one of their own in Baltimore awhile back. Since that is the case I'm missing how it is profitable.

There was one in Texas too. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ome-justice-in-texas-the-raid-on-henry-magee/

No bill by the Grand Jury.

That's why all charges were dropped against Breonna Taylors boyfriend. A homeowner can legally open fire on officers in a no knock raid.

 

[pknopp]

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

No, they weren't within their rights but they were excused anyway.

The cop that shot Castillo was a coward. The cop that shot Daniel Shaver is a sick person who should never be allowed to handle a gun ever again.

Hence we have riots. Stop the things you mention and we can stop the riots.

And your solution is to hold thousands of innocent peoples business hostage by declaring that police behave or else be vandalized or burned down? You think that’s going to convince people? It’s going to convince people without them holding resentment?

No, that is the solution of those who refuse to address a broken system.

No that’s the solution of those who don’t really want a solution and instead want to fuck shit up. Malcolm X actually had an argument to do so during his time. MLK have an even greater excuse to fuck shit up living in the Jim Crow south. MLK chose not to because it would not have produced the desired results. Even Malcolm X eventually realized the truth behind what MLK was saying, and then Malcolm X got killed by his own side for saying it.

To say that no one is being heard is absolute bullshit as well. Empirically the amount of unarmed black men killed by police has dropped 66% from 2016. Again, most of those 9 cases cited were justified. You’re also saying that no one is listening? Are you fucking. Everyone has been listening. It absolutely dominates the news cycle everytime one of these events happen. Floyd completely overshadowed a goddamn worldwide pandemic, and got the entire world to show up for demonstrations. The officer involved, chuavin was fired and charged nearly instantaneously. The other officers were suspended and eventually fired. No easy task when the police, or any other union, is involved.

Here’s the truth, you have a population of around 800,000 officers in the US. Their job is to respond to calls of people usually having a really bad day. The people they interact with are often under the influence of a substance. Many of those people really do not want to talk to the police. Many of these people also have underlying mental health issues. Police often see the worst in humanity. They are the ones who respond to the domestic violence calls, child abuse, rape, battery, assault, murder, etc. Not all of those interactions are going to end ideally. I don’t should absolutely hold cops accountable when it doesn’t. On the flip side, all things consider, the vast majority of those interactions end about as good as one could hope for. America is a pretty safe country because of it. So the hyperbolic speech needs to stop because it isn’t doing any good and will cause harm for the very same people it claims to want to help.

Protests and riots have made some gains. We have greatly expanded the use of body camera's because of them.

800,000 cops. 8000 bad cops. When the bad cops are provided cover you have 800,000 bad cops.

MLK did call for peaceful protest and here over 50 years later we still solved little with them. Violence in the last 5 years or so has done far more.

 

[Reverend_Hellh0und]

If cops want to be able to use choke holds, they need to be at minimum a blue belt in jitsu.

Do you have any clue how long that takes?

yes, I do....


It's kinda in my wheelhouse.

 

[SavannahMann]

PROGS are just dumb is all. Some cities have outlawed choke holds, so imagine if you're a cop and a choke-hold is all there is between life and death. Fucking-A I'm putting them in a choke-hold and any non-pussified police officer will do the same. In the end, cops are quitting.

Further proving PROGS are a disaster. Cops quit and their replacements must be 2nd rate. Leniency rewards and entices bad behavior, and that's exactly what a certain elite desires, their pawns (e.g. governors) are just too dumb and corrupt to know it.

The party of slavery has only changed tactics. Everything they're doing will only have a negative impact on blacks.

Ok. Help me out here. The chokehold is the only thing between life and death for the cop. Ok. The cop has to be behind the baddie to put him in a chokehold. Now, explain to me how the cop manages to get the bad guy turned around so he can put the chokehold on while in a fight for his life and no other technique or move would work.

WTF? Are you saying a cop would never find himself behind a thug?

Where's your head at? Let me guess, you're an only child or only have sisters and you've never so much as wrestled never mind been involved in a fight? I'm right huh?

I decided to wait until I had more time to give this a proper reply. Yes I have a Brother. Yes we fought, and wrestled. I have been in more fights than you can easily imagine. But let’s stick with this topic.

You say we should allow the Chokehold because it is safer to use than the alternative. I have successfully pointed out that was nonsense. Now, you want to argue it needs to be allowed because of a life and death struggle.

You are an idiot. After explaining the delicacy that needs to be applied when using this maneuver, now you are saying we have to allow it because of a life and death struggle where it is the only option. Yet, in that life and death struggle, in the heat where a moment’s hesitation is going to mean the difference between life and death, there is simply put, no way in hell that the arm will be positioned anywhere near perfectly. So what do we do then? Charge the cop with murder for screwing up the technique? Or just write off the poor bastard because the cop screwed up the move?

Seriously, this is just like the asinine debate over torture. We had to allow torture because it might be the only thing that would work to stop the ticking time bomb. Only, it never works in time to stop the ticking time bomb.

That by the way is exactly what I was saying in my first reply. The extreme circumstances argument becomes the routine application of the controversial action. SWAT became routine, torture became routine, and it took months of torture to get any usable information. The Ticking Time Bomb was bullshit. A lame assed excuse.

If the cop has to use it in the life or death struggle and no other alternative exists, then he can use it and leave it up to others to judge if it was justified. But there is no way in hell I am going to say sure, let them do it as they see fit. It is dangerous, and you can’t seriously expect anyone to believe it isn’t. It requires the person applying it to be in complete control of the situation, and themselves, and cops have demonstrated time and time again that they are not. And your life and death struggle argument is just stupid. Because during that struggle the odds of the arm being positioned properly are essentially nil.

 

[Reverend_Hellh0und]

PROGS are just dumb is all. Some cities have outlawed choke holds, so imagine if you're a cop and a choke-hold is all there is between life and death. Fucking-A I'm putting them in a choke-hold and any non-pussified police officer will do the same. In the end, cops are quitting.

Further proving PROGS are a disaster. Cops quit and their replacements must be 2nd rate. Leniency rewards and entices bad behavior, and that's exactly what a certain elite desires, their pawns (e.g. governors) are just too dumb and corrupt to know it.

The party of slavery has only changed tactics. Everything they're doing will only have a negative impact on blacks.

Ok. Help me out here. The chokehold is the only thing between life and death for the cop. Ok. The cop has to be behind the baddie to put him in a chokehold. Now, explain to me how the cop manages to get the bad guy turned around so he can put the chokehold on while in a fight for his life and no other technique or move would work.

WTF? Are you saying a cop would never find himself behind a thug?

Where's your head at? Let me guess, you're an only child or only have sisters and you've never so much as wrestled never mind been involved in a fight? I'm right huh?

I decided to wait until I had more time to give this a proper reply. Yes I have a Brother. Yes we fought, and wrestled. I have been in more fights than you can easily imagine. But let’s stick with this topic.

You say we should allow the Chokehold because it is safer to use than the alternative. I have successfully pointed out that was nonsense. Now, you want to argue it needs to be allowed because of a life and death struggle.

You are an idiot. After explaining the delicacy that needs to be applied when using this maneuver, now you are saying we have to allow it because of a life and death struggle where it is the only option. Yet, in that life and death struggle, in the heat where a moment’s hesitation is going to mean the difference between life and death, there is simply put, no way in hell that the arm will be positioned anywhere near perfectly. So what do we do then? Charge the cop with murder for screwing up the technique? Or just write off the poor bastard because the cop screwed up the move?

Seriously, this is just like the asinine debate over torture. We had to allow torture because it might be the only thing that would work to stop the ticking time bomb. Only, it never works in time to stop the ticking time bomb.

That by the way is exactly what I was saying in my first reply. The extreme circumstances argument becomes the routine application of the controversial action. SWAT became routine, torture became routine, and it took months of torture to get any usable information. The Ticking Time Bomb was bullshit. A lame assed excuse.

If the cop has to use it in the life or death struggle and no other alternative exists, then he can use it and leave it up to others to judge if it was justified. But there is no way in hell I am going to say sure, let them do it as they see fit. It is dangerous, and you can’t seriously expect anyone to believe it isn’t. It requires the person applying it to be in complete control of the situation, and themselves, and cops have demonstrated time and time again that they are not. And your life and death struggle argument is just stupid. Because during that struggle the odds of the arm being positioned properly are essentially nil.

How many "choke holds" have you applied/received?

 

[SavannahMann]

PROGS are just dumb is all. Some cities have outlawed choke holds, so imagine if you're a cop and a choke-hold is all there is between life and death. Fucking-A I'm putting them in a choke-hold and any non-pussified police officer will do the same. In the end, cops are quitting.

Further proving PROGS are a disaster. Cops quit and their replacements must be 2nd rate. Leniency rewards and entices bad behavior, and that's exactly what a certain elite desires, their pawns (e.g. governors) are just too dumb and corrupt to know it.

The party of slavery has only changed tactics. Everything they're doing will only have a negative impact on blacks.

Ok. Help me out here. The chokehold is the only thing between life and death for the cop. Ok. The cop has to be behind the baddie to put him in a chokehold. Now, explain to me how the cop manages to get the bad guy turned around so he can put the chokehold on while in a fight for his life and no other technique or move would work.

WTF? Are you saying a cop would never find himself behind a thug?

Where's your head at? Let me guess, you're an only child or only have sisters and you've never so much as wrestled never mind been involved in a fight? I'm right huh?

I decided to wait until I had more time to give this a proper reply. Yes I have a Brother. Yes we fought, and wrestled. I have been in more fights than you can easily imagine. But let’s stick with this topic.

You say we should allow the Chokehold because it is safer to use than the alternative. I have successfully pointed out that was nonsense. Now, you want to argue it needs to be allowed because of a life and death struggle.

You are an idiot. After explaining the delicacy that needs to be applied when using this maneuver, now you are saying we have to allow it because of a life and death struggle where it is the only option. Yet, in that life and death struggle, in the heat where a moment’s hesitation is going to mean the difference between life and death, there is simply put, no way in hell that the arm will be positioned anywhere near perfectly. So what do we do then? Charge the cop with murder for screwing up the technique? Or just write off the poor bastard because the cop screwed up the move?

Seriously, this is just like the asinine debate over torture. We had to allow torture because it might be the only thing that would work to stop the ticking time bomb. Only, it never works in time to stop the ticking time bomb.

That by the way is exactly what I was saying in my first reply. The extreme circumstances argument becomes the routine application of the controversial action. SWAT became routine, torture became routine, and it took months of torture to get any usable information. The Ticking Time Bomb was bullshit. A lame assed excuse.

If the cop has to use it in the life or death struggle and no other alternative exists, then he can use it and leave it up to others to judge if it was justified. But there is no way in hell I am going to say sure, let them do it as they see fit. It is dangerous, and you can’t seriously expect anyone to believe it isn’t. It requires the person applying it to be in complete control of the situation, and themselves, and cops have demonstrated time and time again that they are not. And your life and death struggle argument is just stupid. Because during that struggle the odds of the arm being positioned properly are essentially nil.

How many "choke holds" have you applied/received?

Two and two. Never was much of a fan of them, there were always better choices. When you apply the chokehold, you are essentially stationary and vulnerable. One of the things I was taught at Fort Bragg was to immediately stomp on the foot and grab fingers of the arm holding me, and break them.

It is why you need more than one person to apply the choke hold. Professional Wrestling not withstanding. Because in the ten to fifteen seconds it takes to apply it and become effective, you are a sitting duck. So someone has to control the arms of the chokehold victim, or he will fight back and break the hold. It goes faster if you can get a cord around the neck of the victim, but that means arming the cops with garrote cords, and that is going to be a tough sell don’t you think?

It is a stupid argument. It is a stupid technique, and there are faster, safer, and easier ways to fight. The dozen hours of instruction needed according to the OP, would be better spent in a hundred different ways. Almost anything would be better.

It is a stupid risk, and a stupid maneuver that looks good on Wrestling shows, but in RL, it is dangerous and deadly and uncontrollable.

 

[WTH_Progs?]

PROGS are just dumb is all. Some cities have outlawed choke holds, so imagine if you're a cop and a choke-hold is all there is between life and death. Fucking-A I'm putting them in a choke-hold and any non-pussified police officer will do the same. In the end, cops are quitting.

Further proving PROGS are a disaster. Cops quit and their replacements must be 2nd rate. Leniency rewards and entices bad behavior, and that's exactly what a certain elite desires, their pawns (e.g. governors) are just too dumb and corrupt to know it.

The party of slavery has only changed tactics. Everything they're doing will only have a negative impact on blacks.

Ok. Help me out here. The chokehold is the only thing between life and death for the cop. Ok. The cop has to be behind the baddie to put him in a chokehold. Now, explain to me how the cop manages to get the bad guy turned around so he can put the chokehold on while in a fight for his life and no other technique or move would work.

WTF? Are you saying a cop would never find himself behind a thug?

Where's your head at? Let me guess, you're an only child or only have sisters and you've never so much as wrestled never mind been involved in a fight? I'm right huh?

I decided to wait until I had more time to give this a proper reply. Yes I have a Brother. Yes we fought, and wrestled. I have been in more fights than you can easily imagine. But let’s stick with this topic.

You say we should allow the Chokehold because it is safer to use than the alternative. I have successfully pointed out that was nonsense. Now, you want to argue it needs to be allowed because of a life and death struggle.

You are an idiot. After explaining the delicacy that needs to be applied when using this maneuver, now you are saying we have to allow it because of a life and death struggle where it is the only option. Yet, in that life and death struggle, in the heat where a moment’s hesitation is going to mean the difference between life and death, there is simply put, no way in hell that the arm will be positioned anywhere near perfectly. So what do we do then? Charge the cop with murder for screwing up the technique? Or just write off the poor bastard because the cop screwed up the move?

Seriously, this is just like the asinine debate over torture. We had to allow torture because it might be the only thing that would work to stop the ticking time bomb. Only, it never works in time to stop the ticking time bomb.

That by the way is exactly what I was saying in my first reply. The extreme circumstances argument becomes the routine application of the controversial action. SWAT became routine, torture became routine, and it took months of torture to get any usable information. The Ticking Time Bomb was bullshit. A lame assed excuse.

If the cop has to use it in the life or death struggle and no other alternative exists, then he can use it and leave it up to others to judge if it was justified. But there is no way in hell I am going to say sure, let them do it as they see fit. It is dangerous, and you can’t seriously expect anyone to believe it isn’t. It requires the person applying it to be in complete control of the situation, and themselves, and cops have demonstrated time and time again that they are not. And your life and death struggle argument is just stupid. Because during that struggle the odds of the arm being positioned properly are essentially nil.

How many "choke holds" have you applied/received?

Two and two. Never was much of a fan of them, there were always better choices. When you apply the chokehold, you are essentially stationary and vulnerable. One of the things I was taught at Fort Bragg was to immediately stomp on the foot and grab fingers of the arm holding me, and break them.

It is why you need more than one person to apply the choke hold. Professional Wrestling not withstanding. Because in the ten to fifteen seconds it takes to apply it and become effective, you are a sitting duck. So someone has to control the arms of the chokehold victim, or he will fight back and break the hold. It goes faster if you can get a cord around the neck of the victim, but that means arming the cops with garrote cords, and that is going to be a tough sell don’t you think?

It is a stupid argument. It is a stupid technique, and there are faster, safer, and easier ways to fight. The dozen hours of instruction needed according to the OP, would be better spent in a hundred different ways. Almost anything would be better.

It is a stupid risk, and a stupid maneuver that looks good on Wrestling shows, but in RL, it is dangerous and deadly and uncontrollable.

Very cool, I'm 100% for decapitating people after three warnings on video tape. Make it a federal rule, three warnings explaining what you're going to do, and that's it. Next comes pepper spray and/or you take a knee out, break fingers, whatever required at the time. Sound good?

BTW, one person can take out a guy in some type of choke hold, MMA for example. My skinny buddy put me in one, wholly shit. How about training cops to be more effective so things don't escalate? There's an idea that will never fly with the left, they prefer thugs and snowflakes have the upper hand. A handicap of sorts, keep things fair. Floyd and Brooks are martyrs, hmm, they teach that in the military?

 

[freyasman]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

Then shit will get uglier.
If I slap a choke on (and as the OP said, there is a difference between sleeper holds and airway chokes) I can put a guy down and out in just a few seconds. If that isn't an option, then I got to beat him down..... and that can take a while. And it will look brutal as shit while I am doing it.

The problem with using chokeholds is lack of proper training by the officers utilizing them. The problem with the rules prohibiting chokeholds is that they are being made by people who don't even have that much training. Nor do they have any practical experience at subduing people.

 

[freyasman]

If cops want to be able to use choke holds, they need to be at minimum a blue belt in jitsu.

A blue belt in jujitsu isn’t like a blue belt you get in karate where they’re like “you’ve been here for a month, and so here’s your blue belt”. No you actually have to show that you can pass guard, sweep, preform the basic holds on an actual opponent whose trying to do the same to you, and is fighting back full force.

I like BJJ, but I truly love Judo.

 

[freyasman]

PROGS are just dumb is all. Some cities have outlawed choke holds, so imagine if you're a cop and a choke-hold is all there is between life and death. Fucking-A I'm putting them in a choke-hold and any non-pussified police officer will do the same. In the end, cops are quitting.

Further proving PROGS are a disaster. Cops quit and their replacements must be 2nd rate. Leniency rewards and entices bad behavior, and that's exactly what a certain elite desires, their pawns (e.g. governors) are just too dumb and corrupt to know it.

The party of slavery has only changed tactics. Everything they're doing will only have a negative impact on blacks.

Ok. Help me out here. The chokehold is the only thing between life and death for the cop. Ok. The cop has to be behind the baddie to put him in a chokehold. Now, explain to me how the cop manages to get the bad guy turned around so he can put the chokehold on while in a fight for his life and no other technique or move would work.

Not true actually...... I can choke you from the front, back, the side, whatever, especially if you are wearing clothes.

 

[sakinago]

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

No, they weren't within their rights but they were excused anyway.

The cop that shot Castillo was a coward. The cop that shot Daniel Shaver is a sick person who should never be allowed to handle a gun ever again.

Hence we have riots. Stop the things you mention and we can stop the riots.

By law, yes they were. Which is yet another reason why governments should be feared and perpetually reigned in. Government is the paving company that paves the road to hell on good intentions. The laws that let cops get away with this behavior we’re created because criminals found it was more profitable to shoot cops when they got pulled over than get nabbed for their arrest warrant or for the drugs they were smuggling.

The only case I can recall off the top of my head where someone got away with killing a police officer is when they killed one of their own in Baltimore awhile back. Since that is the case I'm missing how it is profitable.

I’m not going to rely on your anecdotadal

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

No, they weren't within their rights but they were excused anyway.

The cop that shot Castillo was a coward. The cop that shot Daniel Shaver is a sick person who should never be allowed to handle a gun ever again.

Hence we have riots. Stop the things you mention and we can stop the riots.

By law, yes they were. Which is yet another reason why governments should be feared and perpetually reigned in. Government is the paving company that paves the road to hell on good intentions. The laws that let cops get away with this behavior we’re created because criminals found it was more profitable to shoot cops when they got pulled over than get nabbed for their arrest warrant or for the drugs they were smuggling.

The only case I can recall off the top of my head where someone got away with killing a police officer is when they killed one of their own in Baltimore awhile back. Since that is the case I'm missing how it is profitable.

Well we’re not going to rely on the top of your head as evidence. These standards, misguided as they may be, were put in place for a reason. Because cops were dying, and still are. 31 have been killed this year alone.

It's not anecdotal.

Disgraced Baltimore officer says detective slain before testifying was also corrupt

No one let's a person continue on like nothing happened when they kill an officer. The problem isn't that the person is dead as much as no one being held accountable.

I was referring to the fact that this is the only case you could think of with cops getting shot as anecdotal.

 

[sakinago]

If cops want to be able to use choke holds, they need to be at minimum a blue belt in jitsu.

Do you have any clue how long that takes?

yes, I do....


It's kinda in my wheelhouse.

I am kind of hesitant on saying blue belt just because we’re going to be looking at a massive shortage of police in like 5 years, maybe even sooner. Maybe something more like they have to go to BJJ once every 2 weeks with training tailored for them.

 

[sakinago]

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

No, they weren't within their rights but they were excused anyway.

The cop that shot Castillo was a coward. The cop that shot Daniel Shaver is a sick person who should never be allowed to handle a gun ever again.

Hence we have riots. Stop the things you mention and we can stop the riots.

And your solution is to hold thousands of innocent peoples business hostage by declaring that police behave or else be vandalized or burned down? You think that’s going to convince people? It’s going to convince people without them holding resentment?

No, that is the solution of those who refuse to address a broken system.

No that’s the solution of those who don’t really want a solution and instead want to fuck shit up. Malcolm X actually had an argument to do so during his time. MLK have an even greater excuse to fuck shit up living in the Jim Crow south. MLK chose not to because it would not have produced the desired results. Even Malcolm X eventually realized the truth behind what MLK was saying, and then Malcolm X got killed by his own side for saying it.

To say that no one is being heard is absolute bullshit as well. Empirically the amount of unarmed black men killed by police has dropped 66% from 2016. Again, most of those 9 cases cited were justified. You’re also saying that no one is listening? Are you fucking. Everyone has been listening. It absolutely dominates the news cycle everytime one of these events happen. Floyd completely overshadowed a goddamn worldwide pandemic, and got the entire world to show up for demonstrations. The officer involved, chuavin was fired and charged nearly instantaneously. The other officers were suspended and eventually fired. No easy task when the police, or any other union, is involved.

Here’s the truth, you have a population of around 800,000 officers in the US. Their job is to respond to calls of people usually having a really bad day. The people they interact with are often under the influence of a substance. Many of those people really do not want to talk to the police. Many of these people also have underlying mental health issues. Police often see the worst in humanity. They are the ones who respond to the domestic violence calls, child abuse, rape, battery, assault, murder, etc. Not all of those interactions are going to end ideally. I don’t should absolutely hold cops accountable when it doesn’t. On the flip side, all things consider, the vast majority of those interactions end about as good as one could hope for. America is a pretty safe country because of it. So the hyperbolic speech needs to stop because it isn’t doing any good and will cause harm for the very same people it claims to want to help.

Protests and riots have made some gains. We have greatly expanded the use of body camera's because of them.

800,000 cops. 8000 bad cops. When the bad cops are provided cover you have 800,000 bad cops.

MLK did call for peaceful protest and here over 50 years later we still solved little with them. Violence in the last 5 years or so has done far more.

Protest yes. Riots, no. The people that you want to be reaching see the riots and roll their eyes, shake their heads, and go back to their lives. That’s not what happened in the MLK movement. People saw a peaceful protest, and then in comparison saw evil cops turn hoses and sick dogs on them. It was quite a contrast and shook people awake.

Let’s just be clear, you’re saying the MLK movement made little to no progress? That it’s almost just as bad as it was then?

 

[anynameyouwish]

Vascular chokeholds (i.e. rear naked choke, guillotine) don’t cut off the airway or airflow. They can restrict airflow, if preformed awkwardly, but it takes a minute or 2 if depriving someone of air to render them unconscious/dead. Vascular chokeholds work by restricting blood flow to the brain (carotid artery), and render people unconscious in seconds. They are perfectly safe. Far safer than tasers, batons, knees on neck, etc. Only in extremely rare cases do they ever cause even moderate damage. I personally have been “choked” unconscious twice, both guillotines. If officers receive the proper training on these techniques, and I’m talking dozens of hours of training, it’s a fact that chokeholds are far safer policing techniques than using tasers or baton.

If you limit the tools of police to just tasers, batons, and pistols, their only option is to escalate a situation facing an unarmed man. If someone drugged up and belligerent is fighting them, the first way to take them out is hopefully a taser, which often aren’t enough depending on the persons size and intoxication. Let’s say it does work, you’ll have 200 lb men free falling to the ground, if that’s on concrete, you’re looking at serious damage if they land on their head. If it doesn’t work, the next option is to repeatedly bash them on the head repeatedly with a baton to render them unconscious. This is an extremely dangerous proposition.

Again, I’m talking vascular choke holds. No risk of damaging the hyoid bones. You’re not digging into the windpipe. You’re cutting off blood flow to the brain, the brain goes into restart mode like your laptop, and starts to boot back up as soon as the hold is released.

you seem to INSIST upon being allowed to beat, taze, choke, kill, (do you need to rape, too?....) everyone who has the misfortune of wandering into the view of conservative christian republican trump supporting police....

you keep talking about "it's a dangerous job because cops have to confront big strong dangerous criminals!"

but we see guys jogging being gunned down

12 year old girls being body slammed

18 year old girls being gunned down for holding a cell phone

black guys beaten mercilessly by gangs of police

and when we ask ..."is that necessary?"

you ALWAYS reply "cops have a tough and dangerous job because SOME criminals are big and strong...."

but 12 year old little girls are NOT!

By all means, use what ever force is ACTUALLY required to bring down the big bad dangerous criminals

but please stop body slamming little girls

please stop gunning down joggers

please stop kneeling on some guys neck until he is dead for passing a bad bill


you didn't kill cliven bundy or any of his gang who AIMED GUNS at feds...

you don't have to kill black girls for holding cell phones, either

 

[pknopp]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

Then shit will get uglier.
If I slap a choke on (and as the OP said, there is a difference between sleeper holds and airway chokes) I can put a guy down and out in just a few seconds. If that isn't an option, then I got to beat him down..... and that can take a while. And it will look brutal as shit while I am doing it.

The problem with using chokeholds is lack of proper training by the officers utilizing them. The problem with the rules prohibiting chokeholds is that they are being made by people who don't even have that much training. Nor do they have any practical experience at subduing people.

Perhaps not which means they have to stop.

 

[anynameyouwish]

Wow, where to begin. First, there is no violence that can be done to another “safely”. There are always risks. And the chokehold has a lot of risks. To be done properly, first the person doing it must be in control of their emotions, and insure that their arm is positioned properly. Otherwise damage to the throat will, not may, be the result. That damage could be significant enough to cause death. So the safe technique, if done even a little bit improperly, can result in death.

But there is more. The cop really can’t do it alone, that is to say one on one. The reason is that the baddie if he realizes what is happening will either elbow the cop, stomp on his foot, grab his nuts, or reach up and break the fingers of the locking hand. I know, I was taught to do all of those in the Army when we were doing advanced unarmed combat training.

If you break his fingers, now the cop can’t work his firearm, and is defenseless against someone who can work the firearm. So the cop can’t do it one on one.

So to apply it the situation must be perfect, and you already have to have the baddie outnumbered. But there is more isn’t there? I mean information your post full of assurances did not leave out. Even if it is done properly, there is a risk of injury or death. Probably not, but not definitely. Because we are all made differently.

One of the problems with the Rodney King arrest was that the police lied on their reports. They wrote that they used the swarm technique. When in reality they just beat on him for a while. The swarm technique is using your numbers against the offender. Everyone grabs a limb, and holds on, the people on the arms force them back to be restrained. If you have the superior numbers to effect a choke hold safely, why not go for the limbs and get the suspect restrained?

Proper positioning is vital, if the arm is off a bit, then pressure is put on the hyoid bones, and cartridge of the neck that hold the airway open. So the cop has to be behind the baddie, have his neck at shoulder height, and able to make sure his arm is positioned properly. That is a lot of things that have to go right, for the most probable outcome to even have a chance of occurring.

The problem arises when one of those things is off. The arm is mis placed, the angle is wrong, or the guy twists a little in an effort to get away. Then the safe technique becomes a lethal technique. Because no cop is going to let go and start the fight all over again to try and get a proper hold. Nobody would, I damn sure wouldn’t. He is going to keep squeezing. And those things that won’t happen, all happen. Which is why the hold was banned in so many departments.

That is the problem with the Police Apologists. They assure us that no abuses will happen, and if they do, those who abuse it will be dealt with. Only, they aren’t really dealt with, and the abuses become the norm. We saw the same damned things time and time again. The police needed SWAT teams for extreme situations. Hostage Situations, Terrorist Attacks, and the most extreme events any of us could imagine. Once they had the SWAT teams, the cops figured why not use them? So every search warrant became an excuse to bring out the SWAT team. And every Search Warrant was massaged to show it was really dangerous and the baddies will destroy evidence or kill cops if they are given any warning. Next thing you know, Breanna Taylor is dead, because the Cops screwed up. But that won’t happen you know. It will be fine. The cops will never abuse the no knock warrants. They will only use them in the most extreme searches.

So no, I am not going to be one of those to champion the choke hold. Because it is dangerous unless it is applied perfectly, and even then it is dangerous. I am not going to back down an inch. Not one inch. We have given up yards, hell miles of our freedoms and rights to the extreme circumstances arguments over the last few decades. No. More.

As I noted.......the police abused the tool of no knock warrants and now it is being taken from them so in the end the police should be upset with their fellow officers that abused the tools gave to them.

Instead they protect them.

It has always been that way in history. We have it, we might as well use it. In war, we argued that the enemy would do it to us, so we would be justified in doing it to them. Every time we see an excuse argued in court for the Police. This was an extreme circumstance, and it needed to be done in this one instance. When the court agrees, the extreme, becomes routine.

In North Carolina, a cop pulled a car over for not having a front license plate. The state the car was from did not issue, nor require, front plates. The cop found drugs. But he was enforcing a non existent law. The court decided that ignorance, on the part of the cop, was just fine. Sure enough, now cops are happily ignorant. If they don’t know they are enforcing non existent laws, they can do more. How many videos are on You Tube of cops swearing that it is illegal to record them? Despite the fact that it is not illegal Anywhere in public.

For years now I have been saying that the pendulum is going to swing, and the cops could minimize the distance it will go by effecting the changes needed themselves. Now, the changes are going to steamroll the cops, and it will be a lot more, and a lot worse.

Not to beat this point but after arguing this for a long time I'm a bit surprised to actually see someone else understand.

It's really simple. The police need to quit defending other officers when they do wrong. It's not that hard. Unfortunately for many it seems they are not able to understand how what they did was wrong. Many have a warped mindset. As you note, there is no law not worth breaking or making up to catch someone with a little pot. Tamir Rice was a kid playing with a toy gun. Philandro Castillo was driving while black. Sandra Bland had the audacity to not show "enough" respect. Eric Garner had sold some "loose cigarettes". Alton Sterling was selling some CD's in a parking lot. Breonna Taylor had done nothing. All dead.

I believe it is against the law to protect a criminal

decent cops protecting BAD cops are breaking the law

 

[EvilCat Breath]

where there are guns, there are bullets and when bullets fly they sometimes land in heads. Where there is violent resistance, there is violent restraint. What
are the "rules" of restraint?

Eric Garner was not violent, he was murdered by Police for allegedly avoiding taxes.

Eric Garner died of a massive heart attack brought on by diabetes and morbid obesity.