The argument for chokeholds.

[sakinago]

Vascular chokeholds (i.e. rear naked choke, guillotine) don’t cut off the airway or airflow. They can restrict airflow, if preformed awkwardly, but it takes a minute or 2 if depriving someone of air to render them unconscious/dead. Vascular chokeholds work by restricting blood flow to the brain (carotid artery), and render people unconscious in seconds. They are perfectly safe. Far safer than tasers, batons, knees on neck, etc. Only in extremely rare cases do they ever cause even moderate damage. I personally have been “choked” unconscious twice, both guillotines. If officers receive the proper training on these techniques, and I’m talking dozens of hours of training, it’s a fact that chokeholds are far safer policing techniques than using tasers or baton.

If you limit the tools of police to just tasers, batons, and pistols, their only option is to escalate a situation facing an unarmed man. If someone drugged up and belligerent is fighting them, the first way to take them out is hopefully a taser, which often aren’t enough depending on the persons size and intoxication. Let’s say it does work, you’ll have 200 lb men free falling to the ground, if that’s on concrete, you’re looking at serious damage if they land on their head. If it doesn’t work, the next option is to repeatedly bash them on the head repeatedly with a baton to render them unconscious. This is an extremely dangerous proposition.

Again, I’m talking vascular choke holds. No risk of damaging the hyoid bones. You’re not digging into the windpipe. You’re cutting off blood flow to the brain, the brain goes into restart mode like your laptop, and starts to boot back up as soon as the hold is released.

you seem to INSIST upon being allowed to beat, taze, choke, kill, (do you need to rape, too?....) everyone who has the misfortune of wandering into the view of conservative christian republican trump supporting police....

you keep talking about "it's a dangerous job because cops have to confront big strong dangerous criminals!"

but we see guys jogging being gunned down

12 year old girls being body slammed

18 year old girls being gunned down for holding a cell phone

black guys beaten mercilessly by gangs of police

and when we ask ..."is that necessary?"

you ALWAYS reply "cops have a tough and dangerous job because SOME criminals are big and strong...."

but 12 year old little girls are NOT!

By all means, use what ever force is ACTUALLY required to bring down the big bad dangerous criminals

but please stop body slamming little girls

please stop gunning down joggers

please stop kneeling on some guys neck until he is dead for passing a bad bill


you didn't kill cliven bundy or any of his gang who AIMED GUNS at feds...

you don't have to kill black girls for holding cell phones, either

Who are you even arguing against? I’m most certainly not making that argument. I don’t want cops body slamming girls. I don’t want them punching women, or any citizen for that matter. I think the philando Castile case was a fucking tragedy and that the laws NEED to change so that the mere act of reaching (unless they know for a FACT it’s a weapon that’ll cause immediate threat) CANNOT be a justified use of lethal force. The philando case upsets me so much because it was clearly a black man excited about exercising his second amendment rights, and he got killed because cops are trained to be that wary of reaching. That’s WRONG. It’s ridiculous to me that cops have a lower standard of using lethal force on our citizens than our own soldiers do in literal war zones. I want to see more blacks exercising their second amendment rights. God only knows how many are scared to do so after philando.

I argue for vascular chokeholds because they a vastly more safe than either the taser or baton. If I was ever trying to fight the police and they had to take me down. I would 100%, without question prefer they use a vascular chokehold vs a taser or baton. I laid that argument out very clearly, and you came back with nothing but a strawman. Learn reading comprehension, and don’t result to cheap tactics that make you weak if you actually want to solve some problems. If you’d rather sit on a fake high horse and throw strawmen and ad hominems around and never get anywhere, let me know now so I can put you on ignore.

 

[irosie91]

where there are guns, there are bullets and when bullets fly they sometimes land in heads. Where there is violent resistance, there is violent restraint. What
are the "rules" of restraint?

Eric Garner was not violent, he was murdered by Police for allegedly avoiding taxes.

Eric Garner died of a massive heart attack brought on by diabetes and morbid obesity.

how do you know? THE FACT IS that such an event leaves evidence that can be determined on autopsy-----however----the evidence could have been covered up to avoid offending .......
"people" -----if he died of an arrhythmia ----
that would be tough to prove on autopsy. If he died of being "choked" that shows up too----as far as a know

 

[irosie91]

how about the "change in law" being ----ten years for resisting arrest ?

 

[Jarlaxle]

I never had a bad interaction like this with the police, I never been placed in a chokehold -- therefore chokeholds aren't a problem and police should be able to do it as often as they like...

Worst I've ever gotten is a handshake and "Have a good afternoon, sir."

I had an officer engage in a criminal conspiracy with the person attacking me after I called 911. His parting words were, "Don't leave too many bruises." I'm pretty sure I wound up having a skillet busted over my head before, during, or after being thrown down a flight of stairs.

My wife had a much worse experience.

That never happened to me, therefore it never happened to you.....fake news

Are you on some sort of mind-altering chemicals?

 

[EvilCat Breath]

where there are guns, there are bullets and when bullets fly they sometimes land in heads. Where there is violent resistance, there is violent restraint. What
are the "rules" of restraint?

Eric Garner was not violent, he was murdered by Police for allegedly avoiding taxes.

Eric Garner died of a massive heart attack brought on by diabetes and morbid obesity.

how do you know? THE FACT IS that such an event leaves evidence that can be determined on autopsy-----however----the evidence could have been covered up to avoid offending .......
"people" -----if he died of an arrhythmia ----
that would be tough to prove on autopsy. If he died of being "choked" that shows up too----as far as a know

There was an autopsy. Garner was alive and breathing when he went into the ambulance. He died of a massive heart attack.

 

[irosie91]

where there are guns, there are bullets and when bullets fly they sometimes land in heads. Where there is violent resistance, there is violent restraint. What
are the "rules" of restraint?

Eric Garner was not violent, he was murdered by Police for allegedly avoiding taxes.

Eric Garner died of a massive heart attack brought on by diabetes and morbid obesity.

how do you know? THE FACT IS that such an event leaves evidence that can be determined on autopsy-----however----the evidence could have been covered up to avoid offending .......
"people" -----if he died of an arrhythmia ----
that would be tough to prove on autopsy. If he died of being "choked" that shows up too----as far as I know

There was an autopsy. Garner was alive and breathing when he went into the ambulance. He died of a massive heart attack.

oh-----well----

 

[SavannahMann]

PROGS are just dumb is all. Some cities have outlawed choke holds, so imagine if you're a cop and a choke-hold is all there is between life and death. Fucking-A I'm putting them in a choke-hold and any non-pussified police officer will do the same. In the end, cops are quitting.

Further proving PROGS are a disaster. Cops quit and their replacements must be 2nd rate. Leniency rewards and entices bad behavior, and that's exactly what a certain elite desires, their pawns (e.g. governors) are just too dumb and corrupt to know it.

The party of slavery has only changed tactics. Everything they're doing will only have a negative impact on blacks.

Ok. Help me out here. The chokehold is the only thing between life and death for the cop. Ok. The cop has to be behind the baddie to put him in a chokehold. Now, explain to me how the cop manages to get the bad guy turned around so he can put the chokehold on while in a fight for his life and no other technique or move would work.

WTF? Are you saying a cop would never find himself behind a thug?

Where's your head at? Let me guess, you're an only child or only have sisters and you've never so much as wrestled never mind been involved in a fight? I'm right huh?

I decided to wait until I had more time to give this a proper reply. Yes I have a Brother. Yes we fought, and wrestled. I have been in more fights than you can easily imagine. But let’s stick with this topic.

You say we should allow the Chokehold because it is safer to use than the alternative. I have successfully pointed out that was nonsense. Now, you want to argue it needs to be allowed because of a life and death struggle.

You are an idiot. After explaining the delicacy that needs to be applied when using this maneuver, now you are saying we have to allow it because of a life and death struggle where it is the only option. Yet, in that life and death struggle, in the heat where a moment’s hesitation is going to mean the difference between life and death, there is simply put, no way in hell that the arm will be positioned anywhere near perfectly. So what do we do then? Charge the cop with murder for screwing up the technique? Or just write off the poor bastard because the cop screwed up the move?

Seriously, this is just like the asinine debate over torture. We had to allow torture because it might be the only thing that would work to stop the ticking time bomb. Only, it never works in time to stop the ticking time bomb.

That by the way is exactly what I was saying in my first reply. The extreme circumstances argument becomes the routine application of the controversial action. SWAT became routine, torture became routine, and it took months of torture to get any usable information. The Ticking Time Bomb was bullshit. A lame assed excuse.

If the cop has to use it in the life or death struggle and no other alternative exists, then he can use it and leave it up to others to judge if it was justified. But there is no way in hell I am going to say sure, let them do it as they see fit. It is dangerous, and you can’t seriously expect anyone to believe it isn’t. It requires the person applying it to be in complete control of the situation, and themselves, and cops have demonstrated time and time again that they are not. And your life and death struggle argument is just stupid. Because during that struggle the odds of the arm being positioned properly are essentially nil.

How many "choke holds" have you applied/received?

Two and two. Never was much of a fan of them, there were always better choices. When you apply the chokehold, you are essentially stationary and vulnerable. One of the things I was taught at Fort Bragg was to immediately stomp on the foot and grab fingers of the arm holding me, and break them.

It is why you need more than one person to apply the choke hold. Professional Wrestling not withstanding. Because in the ten to fifteen seconds it takes to apply it and become effective, you are a sitting duck. So someone has to control the arms of the chokehold victim, or he will fight back and break the hold. It goes faster if you can get a cord around the neck of the victim, but that means arming the cops with garrote cords, and that is going to be a tough sell don’t you think?

It is a stupid argument. It is a stupid technique, and there are faster, safer, and easier ways to fight. The dozen hours of instruction needed according to the OP, would be better spent in a hundred different ways. Almost anything would be better.

It is a stupid risk, and a stupid maneuver that looks good on Wrestling shows, but in RL, it is dangerous and deadly and uncontrollable.

Very cool, I'm 100% for decapitating people after three warnings on video tape. Make it a federal rule, three warnings explaining what you're going to do, and that's it. Next comes pepper spray and/or you take a knee out, break fingers, whatever required at the time. Sound good?

BTW, one person can take out a guy in some type of choke hold, MMA for example. My skinny buddy put me in one, wholly shit. How about training cops to be more effective so things don't escalate? There's an idea that will never fly with the left, they prefer thugs and snowflakes have the upper hand. A handicap of sorts, keep things fair. Floyd and Brooks are martyrs, hmm, they teach that in the military?

Nonsense. I do enjoy this thread though. You started it out trying to sound reasonable and now you are showing if not your true colors, than at least something close. Instead of it being safer, and less violent, you are demanding that people be decapitated. BTW, another thing that is a lot harder than they make it look on TV.

And that is where we are. You are trying to apply TV to real life. And it doesn’t work well at all. The police have the power to escalate, or to deescalate. All too often they escalate it.

As for what I was taught. One of the lessons I learned was this. Once you escalate, you can not take it back to a lesser situation. You are stuck with the escalation. And that is the danger of it. It is easier, and most often although nothing is ever 100%, to start calmly and reasonably and then if necessary escalate to violence.

But you want to see the cops kicking ass. You want to see the cops teach those miscreants a lesson. A good ass kicking in order to show them who the boss is. The problem is that the cops are outnumbered, and after a while, the people in the neighborhoods get fed up, and show the cops who is in charge. We have riots, and what then? Open fire into the crowd? If you do that, you had better make sure that the cops are driving armored cars from then on, because every single one will have a target on his back. If you think it is dangerous to be a cop now, just wait until you open fire into a crowd. Everyone for miles around will want those cops dead, and they will die.

 

[SavannahMann]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

Then shit will get uglier.
If I slap a choke on (and as the OP said, there is a difference between sleeper holds and airway chokes) I can put a guy down and out in just a few seconds. If that isn't an option, then I got to beat him down..... and that can take a while. And it will look brutal as shit while I am doing it.

The problem with using chokeholds is lack of proper training by the officers utilizing them. The problem with the rules prohibiting chokeholds is that they are being made by people who don't even have that much training. Nor do they have any practical experience at subduing people.

The biggest problem with the chokehold, is that the positioning has to be perfect. In a fluid combative environment, it is literally the worst choice. You have had training. When you feel someone going for it, you tuck your chin in to protect the neck. At least that was one of the tricks I was taught. Then it is break the hold, and reverse the attack.

What the opponent is not going to do is just sit there and let you put him to sleep. In a fluid situation, the chances of injury or death are just too high. Now, in combat, where your enemy is there, Ok, but even then there are better choices. I was taught to break necks, not put the guy into a sleeper hold, and breaking necks is another thing that is a lot harder than Hollywood wants to make it seem. For Hollywood it is a flick of the wrist, and the guy is down and dead. In real life, you have to have some leverage, and a lot of brute strength applied rapidly.

The choke hold is not a safer option than just about anything. There is no safe option, as anything can lead to death. But the chokehold is one that is almost guaranteed to cause additional problems.

The OP just wants to have the cops kicking ass, and doesn’t care if the baddie dies. In my opinion, he would probably prefer it.

 

[WTH_Progs?]

PROGS are just dumb is all. Some cities have outlawed choke holds, so imagine if you're a cop and a choke-hold is all there is between life and death. Fucking-A I'm putting them in a choke-hold and any non-pussified police officer will do the same. In the end, cops are quitting.

Further proving PROGS are a disaster. Cops quit and their replacements must be 2nd rate. Leniency rewards and entices bad behavior, and that's exactly what a certain elite desires, their pawns (e.g. governors) are just too dumb and corrupt to know it.

The party of slavery has only changed tactics. Everything they're doing will only have a negative impact on blacks.

Ok. Help me out here. The chokehold is the only thing between life and death for the cop. Ok. The cop has to be behind the baddie to put him in a chokehold. Now, explain to me how the cop manages to get the bad guy turned around so he can put the chokehold on while in a fight for his life and no other technique or move would work.

WTF? Are you saying a cop would never find himself behind a thug?

Where's your head at? Let me guess, you're an only child or only have sisters and you've never so much as wrestled never mind been involved in a fight? I'm right huh?

I decided to wait until I had more time to give this a proper reply. Yes I have a Brother. Yes we fought, and wrestled. I have been in more fights than you can easily imagine. But let’s stick with this topic.

You say we should allow the Chokehold because it is safer to use than the alternative. I have successfully pointed out that was nonsense. Now, you want to argue it needs to be allowed because of a life and death struggle.

You are an idiot. After explaining the delicacy that needs to be applied when using this maneuver, now you are saying we have to allow it because of a life and death struggle where it is the only option. Yet, in that life and death struggle, in the heat where a moment’s hesitation is going to mean the difference between life and death, there is simply put, no way in hell that the arm will be positioned anywhere near perfectly. So what do we do then? Charge the cop with murder for screwing up the technique? Or just write off the poor bastard because the cop screwed up the move?

Seriously, this is just like the asinine debate over torture. We had to allow torture because it might be the only thing that would work to stop the ticking time bomb. Only, it never works in time to stop the ticking time bomb.

That by the way is exactly what I was saying in my first reply. The extreme circumstances argument becomes the routine application of the controversial action. SWAT became routine, torture became routine, and it took months of torture to get any usable information. The Ticking Time Bomb was bullshit. A lame assed excuse.

If the cop has to use it in the life or death struggle and no other alternative exists, then he can use it and leave it up to others to judge if it was justified. But there is no way in hell I am going to say sure, let them do it as they see fit. It is dangerous, and you can’t seriously expect anyone to believe it isn’t. It requires the person applying it to be in complete control of the situation, and themselves, and cops have demonstrated time and time again that they are not. And your life and death struggle argument is just stupid. Because during that struggle the odds of the arm being positioned properly are essentially nil.

How many "choke holds" have you applied/received?

Two and two. Never was much of a fan of them, there were always better choices. When you apply the chokehold, you are essentially stationary and vulnerable. One of the things I was taught at Fort Bragg was to immediately stomp on the foot and grab fingers of the arm holding me, and break them.

It is why you need more than one person to apply the choke hold. Professional Wrestling not withstanding. Because in the ten to fifteen seconds it takes to apply it and become effective, you are a sitting duck. So someone has to control the arms of the chokehold victim, or he will fight back and break the hold. It goes faster if you can get a cord around the neck of the victim, but that means arming the cops with garrote cords, and that is going to be a tough sell don’t you think?

It is a stupid argument. It is a stupid technique, and there are faster, safer, and easier ways to fight. The dozen hours of instruction needed according to the OP, would be better spent in a hundred different ways. Almost anything would be better.

It is a stupid risk, and a stupid maneuver that looks good on Wrestling shows, but in RL, it is dangerous and deadly and uncontrollable.

Very cool, I'm 100% for decapitating people after three warnings on video tape. Make it a federal rule, three warnings explaining what you're going to do, and that's it. Next comes pepper spray and/or you take a knee out, break fingers, whatever required at the time. Sound good?

BTW, one person can take out a guy in some type of choke hold, MMA for example. My skinny buddy put me in one, wholly shit. How about training cops to be more effective so things don't escalate? There's an idea that will never fly with the left, they prefer thugs and snowflakes have the upper hand. A handicap of sorts, keep things fair. Floyd and Brooks are martyrs, hmm, they teach that in the military?

Nonsense. I do enjoy this thread though. You started it out trying to sound reasonable and now you are showing if not your true colors, than at least something close. Instead of it being safer, and less violent, you are demanding that people be decapitated. BTW, another thing that is a lot harder than they make it look on TV.

And that is where we are. You are trying to apply TV to real life. And it doesn’t work well at all. The police have the power to escalate, or to deescalate. All too often they escalate it.

As for what I was taught. One of the lessons I learned was this. Once you escalate, you can not take it back to a lesser situation. You are stuck with the escalation. And that is the danger of it. It is easier, and most often although nothing is ever 100%, to start calmly and reasonably and then if necessary escalate to violence.

But you want to see the cops kicking ass. You want to see the cops teach those miscreants a lesson. A good ass kicking in order to show them who the boss is. The problem is that the cops are outnumbered, and after a while, the people in the neighborhoods get fed up, and show the cops who is in charge. We have riots, and what then? Open fire into the crowd? If you do that, you had better make sure that the cops are driving armored cars from then on, because every single one will have a target on his back. If you think it is dangerous to be a cop now, just wait until you open fire into a crowd. Everyone for miles around will want those cops dead, and they will die.

STFU, I meant debilitate dumb shit. You call that true colors, are you really that desperate to be right?

You're too far gone to know what I want.

 

[SavannahMann]

PROGS are just dumb is all. Some cities have outlawed choke holds, so imagine if you're a cop and a choke-hold is all there is between life and death. Fucking-A I'm putting them in a choke-hold and any non-pussified police officer will do the same. In the end, cops are quitting.

Further proving PROGS are a disaster. Cops quit and their replacements must be 2nd rate. Leniency rewards and entices bad behavior, and that's exactly what a certain elite desires, their pawns (e.g. governors) are just too dumb and corrupt to know it.

The party of slavery has only changed tactics. Everything they're doing will only have a negative impact on blacks.

Ok. Help me out here. The chokehold is the only thing between life and death for the cop. Ok. The cop has to be behind the baddie to put him in a chokehold. Now, explain to me how the cop manages to get the bad guy turned around so he can put the chokehold on while in a fight for his life and no other technique or move would work.

WTF? Are you saying a cop would never find himself behind a thug?

Where's your head at? Let me guess, you're an only child or only have sisters and you've never so much as wrestled never mind been involved in a fight? I'm right huh?

I decided to wait until I had more time to give this a proper reply. Yes I have a Brother. Yes we fought, and wrestled. I have been in more fights than you can easily imagine. But let’s stick with this topic.

You say we should allow the Chokehold because it is safer to use than the alternative. I have successfully pointed out that was nonsense. Now, you want to argue it needs to be allowed because of a life and death struggle.

You are an idiot. After explaining the delicacy that needs to be applied when using this maneuver, now you are saying we have to allow it because of a life and death struggle where it is the only option. Yet, in that life and death struggle, in the heat where a moment’s hesitation is going to mean the difference between life and death, there is simply put, no way in hell that the arm will be positioned anywhere near perfectly. So what do we do then? Charge the cop with murder for screwing up the technique? Or just write off the poor bastard because the cop screwed up the move?

Seriously, this is just like the asinine debate over torture. We had to allow torture because it might be the only thing that would work to stop the ticking time bomb. Only, it never works in time to stop the ticking time bomb.

That by the way is exactly what I was saying in my first reply. The extreme circumstances argument becomes the routine application of the controversial action. SWAT became routine, torture became routine, and it took months of torture to get any usable information. The Ticking Time Bomb was bullshit. A lame assed excuse.

If the cop has to use it in the life or death struggle and no other alternative exists, then he can use it and leave it up to others to judge if it was justified. But there is no way in hell I am going to say sure, let them do it as they see fit. It is dangerous, and you can’t seriously expect anyone to believe it isn’t. It requires the person applying it to be in complete control of the situation, and themselves, and cops have demonstrated time and time again that they are not. And your life and death struggle argument is just stupid. Because during that struggle the odds of the arm being positioned properly are essentially nil.

How many "choke holds" have you applied/received?

Two and two. Never was much of a fan of them, there were always better choices. When you apply the chokehold, you are essentially stationary and vulnerable. One of the things I was taught at Fort Bragg was to immediately stomp on the foot and grab fingers of the arm holding me, and break them.

It is why you need more than one person to apply the choke hold. Professional Wrestling not withstanding. Because in the ten to fifteen seconds it takes to apply it and become effective, you are a sitting duck. So someone has to control the arms of the chokehold victim, or he will fight back and break the hold. It goes faster if you can get a cord around the neck of the victim, but that means arming the cops with garrote cords, and that is going to be a tough sell don’t you think?

It is a stupid argument. It is a stupid technique, and there are faster, safer, and easier ways to fight. The dozen hours of instruction needed according to the OP, would be better spent in a hundred different ways. Almost anything would be better.

It is a stupid risk, and a stupid maneuver that looks good on Wrestling shows, but in RL, it is dangerous and deadly and uncontrollable.

Very cool, I'm 100% for decapitating people after three warnings on video tape. Make it a federal rule, three warnings explaining what you're going to do, and that's it. Next comes pepper spray and/or you take a knee out, break fingers, whatever required at the time. Sound good?

BTW, one person can take out a guy in some type of choke hold, MMA for example. My skinny buddy put me in one, wholly shit. How about training cops to be more effective so things don't escalate? There's an idea that will never fly with the left, they prefer thugs and snowflakes have the upper hand. A handicap of sorts, keep things fair. Floyd and Brooks are martyrs, hmm, they teach that in the military?

Nonsense. I do enjoy this thread though. You started it out trying to sound reasonable and now you are showing if not your true colors, than at least something close. Instead of it being safer, and less violent, you are demanding that people be decapitated. BTW, another thing that is a lot harder than they make it look on TV.

And that is where we are. You are trying to apply TV to real life. And it doesn’t work well at all. The police have the power to escalate, or to deescalate. All too often they escalate it.

As for what I was taught. One of the lessons I learned was this. Once you escalate, you can not take it back to a lesser situation. You are stuck with the escalation. And that is the danger of it. It is easier, and most often although nothing is ever 100%, to start calmly and reasonably and then if necessary escalate to violence.

But you want to see the cops kicking ass. You want to see the cops teach those miscreants a lesson. A good ass kicking in order to show them who the boss is. The problem is that the cops are outnumbered, and after a while, the people in the neighborhoods get fed up, and show the cops who is in charge. We have riots, and what then? Open fire into the crowd? If you do that, you had better make sure that the cops are driving armored cars from then on, because every single one will have a target on his back. If you think it is dangerous to be a cop now, just wait until you open fire into a crowd. Everyone for miles around will want those cops dead, and they will die.

STFU, I meant debilitate dumb shit. You call that true colors, are you really that desperate to be right?

You're too far gone to know what I want.

What I know is that just like the arguments for Torture, you made Chokeholds sound like a reasonable and preferable choice. It isn’t, but you did make the effort.

So what is your reason for supporting a dangerous practice? What could you possibly hope to gain by decapitation? Again a word that is specific, and not normally used by the less educated members of our society. So tell me what you are hoping to gain? I have no doubt that you will make every effort to appear reasonable. Even if it is not.

 

[sakinago]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

Then shit will get uglier.
If I slap a choke on (and as the OP said, there is a difference between sleeper holds and airway chokes) I can put a guy down and out in just a few seconds. If that isn't an option, then I got to beat him down..... and that can take a while. And it will look brutal as shit while I am doing it.

The problem with using chokeholds is lack of proper training by the officers utilizing them. The problem with the rules prohibiting chokeholds is that they are being made by people who don't even have that much training. Nor do they have any practical experience at subduing people.

The biggest problem with the chokehold, is that the positioning has to be perfect. In a fluid combative environment, it is literally the worst choice. You have had training. When you feel someone going for it, you tuck your chin in to protect the neck. At least that was one of the tricks I was taught. Then it is break the hold, and reverse the attack.

What the opponent is not going to do is just sit there and let you put him to sleep. In a fluid situation, the chances of injury or death are just too high. Now, in combat, where your enemy is there, Ok, but even then there are better choices. I was taught to break necks, not put the guy into a sleeper hold, and breaking necks is another thing that is a lot harder than Hollywood wants to make it seem. For Hollywood it is a flick of the wrist, and the guy is down and dead. In real life, you have to have some leverage, and a lot of brute strength applied rapidly.

The choke hold is not a safer option than just about anything. There is no safe option, as anything can lead to death. But the chokehold is one that is almost guaranteed to cause additional problems.

The OP just wants to have the cops kicking ass, and doesn’t care if the baddie dies. In my opinion, he would probably prefer it.

Wtf are you talking about? Obviously you don’t know. If you’ve done some jujitsu, you’d know that you practice by going full force with an opponent. You can because it’s a non-striking martial art. So you’re going 100% trying to choke someone out whose trying to do the same to you. And what the Gracies in the UFC taught us in the early 2000s, going up against roided out kickboxers almost twice their size, is that jujitsu is very effective against even other highly trained opponents that just don’t know jujitsu. Now you HAVE to know BJJ in MMA, doesn’t matter how good of a striker you are. When your talking about lay people with ZERO training, BJJ is extremely effective, yet can be done so without harming them. People don’t like kimuras or arm bars, they submit very quickly. Very little pressure is needed to apply for either (or basically any) hold. If you keep applying pressure, yeah you’ll eventually break their arm or tear something, but it’s rare it will ever come to that because people want the pain to stop waaaay before you get to that point. With the chokeholds I’m talking about, you’re not going to kill them. The only injuries I’ve heard about are tweaking of the neck...compared to what? What’s the alternative? Getting your face bashed in? Getting tased and falling face first into concrete? All ears to other suggestions on how cops can deal with unarmed perps resisting or even fighting back.

Granted jujitsu is non-striking so it’s not hyper-realistic (still very realistic since you’re going whole hog with your opponent) but it is hyper-effective. You don’t have to be stronger than your opponent, you just have to be stronger than the arteries around their neck or the ligaments in their shoulder. Which isn’t that hard to do. Besides plenty of schools offer some type of combat jiujitsu, where strikes are taken into consideration in a fight. Instead of punching you just slap. This would be perfect for cops. Teach them to cover up, not leave themselves open, and work their way to a hold.

I fucking hate listening to people who have no clue what they’re talking about, yet talk about being trained to break necks. What on earth would be a situation where breaking a neck (which is a very fucking strong musculoskeletal system) is easier than either a guillotine or a rear naked choke...and then just actually choking them to death? I could see with plenty of practice, someone with a lot of strength and leverage could eventually get good at breaking necks, problem is, not a lot of spare necks out there to practice on.

 

[freyasman]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

Then shit will get uglier.
If I slap a choke on (and as the OP said, there is a difference between sleeper holds and airway chokes) I can put a guy down and out in just a few seconds. If that isn't an option, then I got to beat him down..... and that can take a while. And it will look brutal as shit while I am doing it.

The problem with using chokeholds is lack of proper training by the officers utilizing them. The problem with the rules prohibiting chokeholds is that they are being made by people who don't even have that much training. Nor do they have any practical experience at subduing people.

The biggest problem with the chokehold, is that the positioning has to be perfect. In a fluid combative environment, it is literally the worst choice. You have had training. When you feel someone going for it, you tuck your chin in to protect the neck. At least that was one of the tricks I was taught. Then it is break the hold, and reverse the attack.

What the opponent is not going to do is just sit there and let you put him to sleep. In a fluid situation, the chances of injury or death are just too high. Now, in combat, where your enemy is there, Ok, but even then there are better choices. I was taught to break necks, not put the guy into a sleeper hold, and breaking necks is another thing that is a lot harder than Hollywood wants to make it seem. For Hollywood it is a flick of the wrist, and the guy is down and dead. In real life, you have to have some leverage, and a lot of brute strength applied rapidly.

The choke hold is not a safer option than just about anything. There is no safe option, as anything can lead to death. But the chokehold is one that is almost guaranteed to cause additional problems.

The OP just wants to have the cops kicking ass, and doesn’t care if the baddie dies. In my opinion, he would probably prefer it.

I value your opinion but I don't think you have a lot of grappling training. I do, and I will use a choke whenever I can, because if you know how, it is a very fast, very safe way to end something without a lot of physical damage. They just take a short little nap.

 

[freyasman]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

Then shit will get uglier.
If I slap a choke on (and as the OP said, there is a difference between sleeper holds and airway chokes) I can put a guy down and out in just a few seconds. If that isn't an option, then I got to beat him down..... and that can take a while. And it will look brutal as shit while I am doing it.

The problem with using chokeholds is lack of proper training by the officers utilizing them. The problem with the rules prohibiting chokeholds is that they are being made by people who don't even have that much training. Nor do they have any practical experience at subduing people.

The biggest problem with the chokehold, is that the positioning has to be perfect. In a fluid combative environment, it is literally the worst choice. You have had training. When you feel someone going for it, you tuck your chin in to protect the neck. At least that was one of the tricks I was taught. Then it is break the hold, and reverse the attack.

What the opponent is not going to do is just sit there and let you put him to sleep. In a fluid situation, the chances of injury or death are just too high. Now, in combat, where your enemy is there, Ok, but even then there are better choices. I was taught to break necks, not put the guy into a sleeper hold, and breaking necks is another thing that is a lot harder than Hollywood wants to make it seem. For Hollywood it is a flick of the wrist, and the guy is down and dead. In real life, you have to have some leverage, and a lot of brute strength applied rapidly.

The choke hold is not a safer option than just about anything. There is no safe option, as anything can lead to death. But the chokehold is one that is almost guaranteed to cause additional problems.

The OP just wants to have the cops kicking ass, and doesn’t care if the baddie dies. In my opinion, he would probably prefer it.

Wtf are you talking about? Obviously you don’t know. If you’ve done some jujitsu, you’d know that you practice by going full force with an opponent. You can because it’s a non-striking martial art. So you’re going 100% trying to choke someone out whose trying to do the same to you. And what the Gracies in the UFC taught us in the early 2000s, going up against roided out kickboxers almost twice their size, is that jujitsu is very effective against even other highly trained opponents that just don’t know jujitsu. Now you HAVE to know BJJ in MMA, doesn’t matter how good of a striker you are. When your talking about lay people with ZERO training, BJJ is extremely effective, yet can be done so without harming them. People don’t like kimuras or arm bars, they submit very quickly. Very little pressure is needed to apply for either (or basically any) hold. If you keep applying pressure, yeah you’ll eventually break their arm or tear something, but it’s rare it will ever come to that because people want the pain to stop waaaay before you get to that point. With the chokeholds I’m talking about, you’re not going to kill them. The only injuries I’ve heard about are tweaking of the neck...compared to what? What’s the alternative? Getting your face bashed in? Getting tased and falling face first into concrete? All ears to other suggestions on how cops can deal with unarmed perps resisting or even fighting back.

Granted jujitsu is non-striking so it’s not hyper-realistic (still very realistic since you’re going whole hog with your opponent) but it is hyper-effective. You don’t have to be stronger than your opponent, you just have to be stronger than the arteries around their neck or the ligaments in their shoulder. Which isn’t that hard to do. Besides plenty of schools offer some type of combat jiujitsu, where strikes are taken into consideration in a fight. Instead of punching you just slap. This would be perfect for cops. Teach them to cover up, not leave themselves open, and work their way to a hold.

I fucking hate listening to people who have no clue what they’re talking about, yet talk about being trained to break necks. What on earth would be a situation where breaking a neck (which is a very fucking strong musculoskeletal system) is easier than either a guillotine or a rear naked choke...and then just actually choking them to death? I could see with plenty of practice, someone with a lot of strength and leverage could eventually get good at breaking necks, problem is, not a lot of spare necks out there to practice on.

I actually was shown a technique at a sambo seminar a few years back that felt like it was not just going to break your neck, it felt like he was pulling my damn head off..... I couldn't tap fast enough.

 

[sakinago]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

Then shit will get uglier.
If I slap a choke on (and as the OP said, there is a difference between sleeper holds and airway chokes) I can put a guy down and out in just a few seconds. If that isn't an option, then I got to beat him down..... and that can take a while. And it will look brutal as shit while I am doing it.

The problem with using chokeholds is lack of proper training by the officers utilizing them. The problem with the rules prohibiting chokeholds is that they are being made by people who don't even have that much training. Nor do they have any practical experience at subduing people.

The biggest problem with the chokehold, is that the positioning has to be perfect. In a fluid combative environment, it is literally the worst choice. You have had training. When you feel someone going for it, you tuck your chin in to protect the neck. At least that was one of the tricks I was taught. Then it is break the hold, and reverse the attack.

What the opponent is not going to do is just sit there and let you put him to sleep. In a fluid situation, the chances of injury or death are just too high. Now, in combat, where your enemy is there, Ok, but even then there are better choices. I was taught to break necks, not put the guy into a sleeper hold, and breaking necks is another thing that is a lot harder than Hollywood wants to make it seem. For Hollywood it is a flick of the wrist, and the guy is down and dead. In real life, you have to have some leverage, and a lot of brute strength applied rapidly.

The choke hold is not a safer option than just about anything. There is no safe option, as anything can lead to death. But the chokehold is one that is almost guaranteed to cause additional problems.

The OP just wants to have the cops kicking ass, and doesn’t care if the baddie dies. In my opinion, he would probably prefer it.

Wtf are you talking about? Obviously you don’t know. If you’ve done some jujitsu, you’d know that you practice by going full force with an opponent. You can because it’s a non-striking martial art. So you’re going 100% trying to choke someone out whose trying to do the same to you. And what the Gracies in the UFC taught us in the early 2000s, going up against roided out kickboxers almost twice their size, is that jujitsu is very effective against even other highly trained opponents that just don’t know jujitsu. Now you HAVE to know BJJ in MMA, doesn’t matter how good of a striker you are. When your talking about lay people with ZERO training, BJJ is extremely effective, yet can be done so without harming them. People don’t like kimuras or arm bars, they submit very quickly. Very little pressure is needed to apply for either (or basically any) hold. If you keep applying pressure, yeah you’ll eventually break their arm or tear something, but it’s rare it will ever come to that because people want the pain to stop waaaay before you get to that point. With the chokeholds I’m talking about, you’re not going to kill them. The only injuries I’ve heard about are tweaking of the neck...compared to what? What’s the alternative? Getting your face bashed in? Getting tased and falling face first into concrete? All ears to other suggestions on how cops can deal with unarmed perps resisting or even fighting back.

Granted jujitsu is non-striking so it’s not hyper-realistic (still very realistic since you’re going whole hog with your opponent) but it is hyper-effective. You don’t have to be stronger than your opponent, you just have to be stronger than the arteries around their neck or the ligaments in their shoulder. Which isn’t that hard to do. Besides plenty of schools offer some type of combat jiujitsu, where strikes are taken into consideration in a fight. Instead of punching you just slap. This would be perfect for cops. Teach them to cover up, not leave themselves open, and work their way to a hold.

I fucking hate listening to people who have no clue what they’re talking about, yet talk about being trained to break necks. What on earth would be a situation where breaking a neck (which is a very fucking strong musculoskeletal system) is easier than either a guillotine or a rear naked choke...and then just actually choking them to death? I could see with plenty of practice, someone with a lot of strength and leverage could eventually get good at breaking necks, problem is, not a lot of spare necks out there to practice on.

I actually was shown a technique at a sambo seminar a few years back that felt like it was not just going to break your neck, it felt like he was pulling my damn head off..... I couldn't tap fast enough.

Probably guillotine, were his legs wrapped on your hips as he was stretching out his core? You don’t need the legs for a guillotine but when you get them in there it feels like you’re heads going to pop off.

 

[freyasman]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

Then shit will get uglier.
If I slap a choke on (and as the OP said, there is a difference between sleeper holds and airway chokes) I can put a guy down and out in just a few seconds. If that isn't an option, then I got to beat him down..... and that can take a while. And it will look brutal as shit while I am doing it.

The problem with using chokeholds is lack of proper training by the officers utilizing them. The problem with the rules prohibiting chokeholds is that they are being made by people who don't even have that much training. Nor do they have any practical experience at subduing people.

The biggest problem with the chokehold, is that the positioning has to be perfect. In a fluid combative environment, it is literally the worst choice. You have had training. When you feel someone going for it, you tuck your chin in to protect the neck. At least that was one of the tricks I was taught. Then it is break the hold, and reverse the attack.

What the opponent is not going to do is just sit there and let you put him to sleep. In a fluid situation, the chances of injury or death are just too high. Now, in combat, where your enemy is there, Ok, but even then there are better choices. I was taught to break necks, not put the guy into a sleeper hold, and breaking necks is another thing that is a lot harder than Hollywood wants to make it seem. For Hollywood it is a flick of the wrist, and the guy is down and dead. In real life, you have to have some leverage, and a lot of brute strength applied rapidly.

The choke hold is not a safer option than just about anything. There is no safe option, as anything can lead to death. But the chokehold is one that is almost guaranteed to cause additional problems.

The OP just wants to have the cops kicking ass, and doesn’t care if the baddie dies. In my opinion, he would probably prefer it.

Wtf are you talking about? Obviously you don’t know. If you’ve done some jujitsu, you’d know that you practice by going full force with an opponent. You can because it’s a non-striking martial art. So you’re going 100% trying to choke someone out whose trying to do the same to you. And what the Gracies in the UFC taught us in the early 2000s, going up against roided out kickboxers almost twice their size, is that jujitsu is very effective against even other highly trained opponents that just don’t know jujitsu. Now you HAVE to know BJJ in MMA, doesn’t matter how good of a striker you are. When your talking about lay people with ZERO training, BJJ is extremely effective, yet can be done so without harming them. People don’t like kimuras or arm bars, they submit very quickly. Very little pressure is needed to apply for either (or basically any) hold. If you keep applying pressure, yeah you’ll eventually break their arm or tear something, but it’s rare it will ever come to that because people want the pain to stop waaaay before you get to that point. With the chokeholds I’m talking about, you’re not going to kill them. The only injuries I’ve heard about are tweaking of the neck...compared to what? What’s the alternative? Getting your face bashed in? Getting tased and falling face first into concrete? All ears to other suggestions on how cops can deal with unarmed perps resisting or even fighting back.

Granted jujitsu is non-striking so it’s not hyper-realistic (still very realistic since you’re going whole hog with your opponent) but it is hyper-effective. You don’t have to be stronger than your opponent, you just have to be stronger than the arteries around their neck or the ligaments in their shoulder. Which isn’t that hard to do. Besides plenty of schools offer some type of combat jiujitsu, where strikes are taken into consideration in a fight. Instead of punching you just slap. This would be perfect for cops. Teach them to cover up, not leave themselves open, and work their way to a hold.

I fucking hate listening to people who have no clue what they’re talking about, yet talk about being trained to break necks. What on earth would be a situation where breaking a neck (which is a very fucking strong musculoskeletal system) is easier than either a guillotine or a rear naked choke...and then just actually choking them to death? I could see with plenty of practice, someone with a lot of strength and leverage could eventually get good at breaking necks, problem is, not a lot of spare necks out there to practice on.

I actually was shown a technique at a sambo seminar a few years back that felt like it was not just going to break your neck, it felt like he was pulling my damn head off..... I couldn't tap fast enough.

Probably guillotine, were his legs wrapped on your hips as he was stretching out his core? You don’t need the legs for a guillotine but when you get them in there it feels like you’re heads going to pop off.

It was off a front headlock when we were on our knees. He crawfished back and I thought my head was coming off. Never seen it before.

 

[Godboy]

Vascular chokeholds (i.e. rear naked choke, guillotine) don’t cut off the airway or airflow. They can restrict airflow, if preformed awkwardly, but it takes a minute or 2 if depriving someone of air to render them unconscious/dead. Vascular chokeholds work by restricting blood flow to the brain (carotid artery), and render people unconscious in seconds. They are perfectly safe. Far safer than tasers, batons, knees on neck, etc. Only in extremely rare cases do they ever cause even moderate damage. I personally have been “choked” unconscious twice, both guillotines. If officers receive the proper training on these techniques, and I’m talking dozens of hours of training, it’s a fact that chokeholds are far safer policing techniques than using tasers or baton.

If you limit the tools of police to just tasers, batons, and pistols, their only option is to escalate a situation facing an unarmed man. If someone drugged up and belligerent is fighting them, the first way to take them out is hopefully a taser, which often aren’t enough depending on the persons size and intoxication. Let’s say it does work, you’ll have 200 lb men free falling to the ground, if that’s on concrete, you’re looking at serious damage if they land on their head. If it doesn’t work, the next option is to repeatedly bash them on the head repeatedly with a baton to render them unconscious. This is an extremely dangerous proposition.

Again, I’m talking vascular choke holds. No risk of damaging the hyoid bones. You’re not digging into the windpipe. You’re cutting off blood flow to the brain, the brain goes into restart mode like your laptop, and starts to boot back up as soon as the hold is released.

If you let police use choke holds, it makes things safer fro everyone. No one gets hurt when they are choked out. Sure, if you hold the choke for 10 minutes youll kill someone, but that isnt what im talking about. Once the person goes limp, cuff him before he wakes up, which doesnt take more than a few seconds.

 

[Godboy]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

Then shit will get uglier.
If I slap a choke on (and as the OP said, there is a difference between sleeper holds and airway chokes) I can put a guy down and out in just a few seconds. If that isn't an option, then I got to beat him down..... and that can take a while. And it will look brutal as shit while I am doing it.

The problem with using chokeholds is lack of proper training by the officers utilizing them. The problem with the rules prohibiting chokeholds is that they are being made by people who don't even have that much training. Nor do they have any practical experience at subduing people.

The biggest problem with the chokehold, is that the positioning has to be perfect. In a fluid combative environment, it is literally the worst choice. You have had training. When you feel someone going for it, you tuck your chin in to protect the neck. At least that was one of the tricks I was taught. Then it is break the hold, and reverse the attack.

What the opponent is not going to do is just sit there and let you put him to sleep. In a fluid situation, the chances of injury or death are just too high. Now, in combat, where your enemy is there, Ok, but even then there are better choices. I was taught to break necks, not put the guy into a sleeper hold, and breaking necks is another thing that is a lot harder than Hollywood wants to make it seem. For Hollywood it is a flick of the wrist, and the guy is down and dead. In real life, you have to have some leverage, and a lot of brute strength applied rapidly.

The choke hold is not a safer option than just about anything. There is no safe option, as anything can lead to death. But the chokehold is one that is almost guaranteed to cause additional problems.

The OP just wants to have the cops kicking ass, and doesn’t care if the baddie dies. In my opinion, he would probably prefer it.

Wtf are you talking about? Obviously you don’t know. If you’ve done some jujitsu, you’d know that you practice by going full force with an opponent. You can because it’s a non-striking martial art. So you’re going 100% trying to choke someone out whose trying to do the same to you. And what the Gracies in the UFC taught us in the early 2000s, going up against roided out kickboxers almost twice their size, is that jujitsu is very effective against even other highly trained opponents that just don’t know jujitsu. Now you HAVE to know BJJ in MMA, doesn’t matter how good of a striker you are. When your talking about lay people with ZERO training, BJJ is extremely effective, yet can be done so without harming them. People don’t like kimuras or arm bars, they submit very quickly. Very little pressure is needed to apply for either (or basically any) hold. If you keep applying pressure, yeah you’ll eventually break their arm or tear something, but it’s rare it will ever come to that because people want the pain to stop waaaay before you get to that point. With the chokeholds I’m talking about, you’re not going to kill them. The only injuries I’ve heard about are tweaking of the neck...compared to what? What’s the alternative? Getting your face bashed in? Getting tased and falling face first into concrete? All ears to other suggestions on how cops can deal with unarmed perps resisting or even fighting back.

Granted jujitsu is non-striking so it’s not hyper-realistic (still very realistic since you’re going whole hog with your opponent) but it is hyper-effective. You don’t have to be stronger than your opponent, you just have to be stronger than the arteries around their neck or the ligaments in their shoulder. Which isn’t that hard to do. Besides plenty of schools offer some type of combat jiujitsu, where strikes are taken into consideration in a fight. Instead of punching you just slap. This would be perfect for cops. Teach them to cover up, not leave themselves open, and work their way to a hold.

I fucking hate listening to people who have no clue what they’re talking about, yet talk about being trained to break necks. What on earth would be a situation where breaking a neck (which is a very fucking strong musculoskeletal system) is easier than either a guillotine or a rear naked choke...and then just actually choking them to death? I could see with plenty of practice, someone with a lot of strength and leverage could eventually get good at breaking necks, problem is, not a lot of spare necks out there to practice on.

I actually was shown a technique at a sambo seminar a few years back that felt like it was not just going to break your neck, it felt like he was pulling my damn head off..... I couldn't tap fast enough.

Probably guillotine, were his legs wrapped on your hips as he was stretching out his core? You don’t need the legs for a guillotine but when you get them in there it feels like you’re heads going to pop off.

Sounds like a Peruvian neck tie to me.

 

[Godboy]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

Then shit will get uglier.
If I slap a choke on (and as the OP said, there is a difference between sleeper holds and airway chokes) I can put a guy down and out in just a few seconds. If that isn't an option, then I got to beat him down..... and that can take a while. And it will look brutal as shit while I am doing it.

The problem with using chokeholds is lack of proper training by the officers utilizing them. The problem with the rules prohibiting chokeholds is that they are being made by people who don't even have that much training. Nor do they have any practical experience at subduing people.

The biggest problem with the chokehold, is that the positioning has to be perfect. In a fluid combative environment, it is literally the worst choice. You have had training. When you feel someone going for it, you tuck your chin in to protect the neck. At least that was one of the tricks I was taught. Then it is break the hold, and reverse the attack.

What the opponent is not going to do is just sit there and let you put him to sleep. In a fluid situation, the chances of injury or death are just too high. Now, in combat, where your enemy is there, Ok, but even then there are better choices. I was taught to break necks, not put the guy into a sleeper hold, and breaking necks is another thing that is a lot harder than Hollywood wants to make it seem. For Hollywood it is a flick of the wrist, and the guy is down and dead. In real life, you have to have some leverage, and a lot of brute strength applied rapidly.

The choke hold is not a safer option than just about anything. There is no safe option, as anything can lead to death. But the chokehold is one that is almost guaranteed to cause additional problems.

The OP just wants to have the cops kicking ass, and doesn’t care if the baddie dies. In my opinion, he would probably prefer it.

Wtf are you talking about? Obviously you don’t know. If you’ve done some jujitsu, you’d know that you practice by going full force with an opponent. You can because it’s a non-striking martial art. So you’re going 100% trying to choke someone out whose trying to do the same to you. And what the Gracies in the UFC taught us in the early 2000s, going up against roided out kickboxers almost twice their size, is that jujitsu is very effective against even other highly trained opponents that just don’t know jujitsu. Now you HAVE to know BJJ in MMA, doesn’t matter how good of a striker you are. When your talking about lay people with ZERO training, BJJ is extremely effective, yet can be done so without harming them. People don’t like kimuras or arm bars, they submit very quickly. Very little pressure is needed to apply for either (or basically any) hold. If you keep applying pressure, yeah you’ll eventually break their arm or tear something, but it’s rare it will ever come to that because people want the pain to stop waaaay before you get to that point. With the chokeholds I’m talking about, you’re not going to kill them. The only injuries I’ve heard about are tweaking of the neck...compared to what? What’s the alternative? Getting your face bashed in? Getting tased and falling face first into concrete? All ears to other suggestions on how cops can deal with unarmed perps resisting or even fighting back.

Granted jujitsu is non-striking so it’s not hyper-realistic (still very realistic since you’re going whole hog with your opponent) but it is hyper-effective. You don’t have to be stronger than your opponent, you just have to be stronger than the arteries around their neck or the ligaments in their shoulder. Which isn’t that hard to do. Besides plenty of schools offer some type of combat jiujitsu, where strikes are taken into consideration in a fight. Instead of punching you just slap. This would be perfect for cops. Teach them to cover up, not leave themselves open, and work their way to a hold.

I fucking hate listening to people who have no clue what they’re talking about, yet talk about being trained to break necks. What on earth would be a situation where breaking a neck (which is a very fucking strong musculoskeletal system) is easier than either a guillotine or a rear naked choke...and then just actually choking them to death? I could see with plenty of practice, someone with a lot of strength and leverage could eventually get good at breaking necks, problem is, not a lot of spare necks out there to practice on.

I actually was shown a technique at a sambo seminar a few years back that felt like it was not just going to break your neck, it felt like he was pulling my damn head off..... I couldn't tap fast enough.

Probably guillotine, were his legs wrapped on your hips as he was stretching out his core? You don’t need the legs for a guillotine but when you get them in there it feels like you’re heads going to pop off.

It was off a front headlock when we were on our knees. He crawfished back and I thought my head was coming off. Never seen it before.

Is it this submission?

 

[WTH_Progs?]

Just by experience I was training some guy many years ago, door to door sales. We fucked around quite a bit, everything cool. He was a State champ wrestler, though a small school. We were about the same size.

So here we are outside some apartments, screwing around a little bit, not much to it, boys being boys. Out of the blue and unprovoked, he got under me and I was flying. Well, I'm kind of squirmy, real good reactions, so on the way down I grabbed his neck (only thing I had) and when we landed I had him in a tight lock. Wouldn't call it a choke hold necessarily, I'm not trained on anything. Whatever it was I had all the leverage I could ask for, he had no choice but to quit, and wasn't happy the way his neck felt the next day. Fair enough, I wasn't happy my back slammed the concrete

Come to think of it, the last actual fight I was in came Vs a big bully type, and if it wasn't for a headlock and block I'd have taken a rock to the head.

So when some asshole politician outlaws choke holds for ignorance and appearances, I call BS. If it's all a cop has at the time take it, and only a fool wouldn't.

 

[freyasman]

When tools are abused they get taken away. You can argue all day for this but it's going to end and those who refuse to abide by the rules will get arrested themselves.

Then shit will get uglier.
If I slap a choke on (and as the OP said, there is a difference between sleeper holds and airway chokes) I can put a guy down and out in just a few seconds. If that isn't an option, then I got to beat him down..... and that can take a while. And it will look brutal as shit while I am doing it.

The problem with using chokeholds is lack of proper training by the officers utilizing them. The problem with the rules prohibiting chokeholds is that they are being made by people who don't even have that much training. Nor do they have any practical experience at subduing people.

The biggest problem with the chokehold, is that the positioning has to be perfect. In a fluid combative environment, it is literally the worst choice. You have had training. When you feel someone going for it, you tuck your chin in to protect the neck. At least that was one of the tricks I was taught. Then it is break the hold, and reverse the attack.

What the opponent is not going to do is just sit there and let you put him to sleep. In a fluid situation, the chances of injury or death are just too high. Now, in combat, where your enemy is there, Ok, but even then there are better choices. I was taught to break necks, not put the guy into a sleeper hold, and breaking necks is another thing that is a lot harder than Hollywood wants to make it seem. For Hollywood it is a flick of the wrist, and the guy is down and dead. In real life, you have to have some leverage, and a lot of brute strength applied rapidly.

The choke hold is not a safer option than just about anything. There is no safe option, as anything can lead to death. But the chokehold is one that is almost guaranteed to cause additional problems.

The OP just wants to have the cops kicking ass, and doesn’t care if the baddie dies. In my opinion, he would probably prefer it.

Wtf are you talking about? Obviously you don’t know. If you’ve done some jujitsu, you’d know that you practice by going full force with an opponent. You can because it’s a non-striking martial art. So you’re going 100% trying to choke someone out whose trying to do the same to you. And what the Gracies in the UFC taught us in the early 2000s, going up against roided out kickboxers almost twice their size, is that jujitsu is very effective against even other highly trained opponents that just don’t know jujitsu. Now you HAVE to know BJJ in MMA, doesn’t matter how good of a striker you are. When your talking about lay people with ZERO training, BJJ is extremely effective, yet can be done so without harming them. People don’t like kimuras or arm bars, they submit very quickly. Very little pressure is needed to apply for either (or basically any) hold. If you keep applying pressure, yeah you’ll eventually break their arm or tear something, but it’s rare it will ever come to that because people want the pain to stop waaaay before you get to that point. With the chokeholds I’m talking about, you’re not going to kill them. The only injuries I’ve heard about are tweaking of the neck...compared to what? What’s the alternative? Getting your face bashed in? Getting tased and falling face first into concrete? All ears to other suggestions on how cops can deal with unarmed perps resisting or even fighting back.

Granted jujitsu is non-striking so it’s not hyper-realistic (still very realistic since you’re going whole hog with your opponent) but it is hyper-effective. You don’t have to be stronger than your opponent, you just have to be stronger than the arteries around their neck or the ligaments in their shoulder. Which isn’t that hard to do. Besides plenty of schools offer some type of combat jiujitsu, where strikes are taken into consideration in a fight. Instead of punching you just slap. This would be perfect for cops. Teach them to cover up, not leave themselves open, and work their way to a hold.

I fucking hate listening to people who have no clue what they’re talking about, yet talk about being trained to break necks. What on earth would be a situation where breaking a neck (which is a very fucking strong musculoskeletal system) is easier than either a guillotine or a rear naked choke...and then just actually choking them to death? I could see with plenty of practice, someone with a lot of strength and leverage could eventually get good at breaking necks, problem is, not a lot of spare necks out there to practice on.

I actually was shown a technique at a sambo seminar a few years back that felt like it was not just going to break your neck, it felt like he was pulling my damn head off..... I couldn't tap fast enough.

Probably guillotine, were his legs wrapped on your hips as he was stretching out his core? You don’t need the legs for a guillotine but when you get them in there it feels like you’re heads going to pop off.

It was off a front headlock when we were on our knees. He crawfished back and I thought my head was coming off. Never seen it before.

Is it this submission?

No, he just whipped his hips back on a diagonal.