The argument for chokeholds.

[Jarlaxle]

He’s there as well because he’s afraid.

Afraid he's losing his mental faculties, possible. Aware enough to fear much else at this point? Doubtful.

 

[pknopp]

Let's see if he can weasel out of charges this time.

NYPD officer in 'chokehold' video is focus of criminal probe

The city better have their insurance policies paid up.

 

[sakinago]

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

 

[pknopp]

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

No, they weren't within their rights but they were excused anyway.

The cop that shot Castillo was a coward. The cop that shot Daniel Shaver is a sick person who should never be allowed to handle a gun ever again.

Hence we have riots. Stop the things you mention and we can stop the riots.

 

[Biff_Poindexter]

I never had a bad interaction like this with the police, I never been placed in a chokehold -- therefore chokeholds aren't a problem and police should be able to do it as often as they like...

Worst I've ever gotten is a handshake and "Have a good afternoon, sir."

I had an officer engage in a criminal conspiracy with the person attacking me after I called 911. His parting words were, "Don't leave too many bruises." I'm pretty sure I wound up having a skillet busted over my head before, during, or after being thrown down a flight of stairs.

My wife had a much worse experience.

That never happened to me, therefore it never happened to you.....fake news

 

[sakinago]

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

No, they weren't within their rights but they were excused anyway.

The cop that shot Castillo was a coward. The cop that shot Daniel Shaver is a sick person who should never be allowed to handle a gun ever again.

Hence we have riots. Stop the things you mention and we can stop the riots.

By law, yes they were. Which is yet another reason why governments should be feared and perpetually reigned in. Government is the paving company that paves the road to hell on good intentions. The laws that let cops get away with this behavior we’re created because criminals found it was more profitable to shoot cops when they got pulled over than get nabbed for their arrest warrant or for the drugs they were smuggling.

 

[sakinago]

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

No, they weren't within their rights but they were excused anyway.

The cop that shot Castillo was a coward. The cop that shot Daniel Shaver is a sick person who should never be allowed to handle a gun ever again.

Hence we have riots. Stop the things you mention and we can stop the riots.

And your solution is to hold thousands of innocent peoples business hostage by declaring that police behave or else be vandalized or burned down? You think that’s going to convince people? It’s going to convince people without them holding resentment?

 

[pknopp]

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

No, they weren't within their rights but they were excused anyway.

The cop that shot Castillo was a coward. The cop that shot Daniel Shaver is a sick person who should never be allowed to handle a gun ever again.

Hence we have riots. Stop the things you mention and we can stop the riots.

By law, yes they were. Which is yet another reason why governments should be feared and perpetually reigned in. Government is the paving company that paves the road to hell on good intentions. The laws that let cops get away with this behavior we’re created because criminals found it was more profitable to shoot cops when they got pulled over than get nabbed for their arrest warrant or for the drugs they were smuggling.

The only case I can recall off the top of my head where someone got away with killing a police officer is when they killed one of their own in Baltimore awhile back. Since that is the case I'm missing how it is profitable.

 

[pknopp]

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

No, they weren't within their rights but they were excused anyway.

The cop that shot Castillo was a coward. The cop that shot Daniel Shaver is a sick person who should never be allowed to handle a gun ever again.

Hence we have riots. Stop the things you mention and we can stop the riots.

And your solution is to hold thousands of innocent peoples business hostage by declaring that police behave or else be vandalized or burned down? You think that’s going to convince people? It’s going to convince people without them holding resentment?

No, that is the solution of those who refuse to address a broken system.

 

[WTH_Progs?]

PROGS are just dumb is all. Some cities have outlawed choke holds, so imagine if you're a cop and a choke-hold is all there is between life and death. Fucking-A I'm putting them in a choke-hold and any non-pussified police officer will do the same. In the end, cops are quitting.

Further proving PROGS are a disaster. Cops quit and their replacements must be 2nd rate. Leniency rewards and entices bad behavior, and that's exactly what a certain elite desires, their pawns (e.g. governors) are just too dumb and corrupt to know it.

The party of slavery has only changed tactics. Everything they're doing will only have a negative impact on blacks.

 

[pknopp]

PROGS are just dumb is all. Some cities have outlawed choke holds, so imagine if you're a cop and a choke-hold is all there is between life and death. Fucking-A I'm putting them in a choke-hold and any non-pussified police officer will do the same. In the end, cops are quitting.

Further proving PROGS are a disaster. Cops quit and their replacements must be 2nd rate. Leniency rewards and entices bad behavior, and that's exactly what a certain elite desires, their pawns (e.g. governors) are just too dumb and corrupt to know it.

The party of slavery has only changed tactics. Everything they're doing will only have a negative impact on blacks.

When you are gave a tool and you abuse that tool you get it taken away from you. It's easy. Quit defending those who abuse things and those things won't have to be removed.

We will get to the point where law enforcement officers are disarmed like they are in other countries otherwise.

 

[SavannahMann]

Wow, where to begin. First, there is no violence that can be done to another “safely”. There are always risks. And the chokehold has a lot of risks. To be done properly, first the person doing it must be in control of their emotions, and insure that their arm is positioned properly. Otherwise damage to the throat will, not may, be the result. That damage could be significant enough to cause death. So the safe technique, if done even a little bit improperly, can result in death.

But there is more. The cop really can’t do it alone, that is to say one on one. The reason is that the baddie if he realizes what is happening will either elbow the cop, stomp on his foot, grab his nuts, or reach up and break the fingers of the locking hand. I know, I was taught to do all of those in the Army when we were doing advanced unarmed combat training.

If you break his fingers, now the cop can’t work his firearm, and is defenseless against someone who can work the firearm. So the cop can’t do it one on one.

So to apply it the situation must be perfect, and you already have to have the baddie outnumbered. But there is more isn’t there? I mean information your post full of assurances did not leave out. Even if it is done properly, there is a risk of injury or death. Probably not, but not definitely. Because we are all made differently.

One of the problems with the Rodney King arrest was that the police lied on their reports. They wrote that they used the swarm technique. When in reality they just beat on him for a while. The swarm technique is using your numbers against the offender. Everyone grabs a limb, and holds on, the people on the arms force them back to be restrained. If you have the superior numbers to effect a choke hold safely, why not go for the limbs and get the suspect restrained?

Proper positioning is vital, if the arm is off a bit, then pressure is put on the hyoid bones, and cartridge of the neck that hold the airway open. So the cop has to be behind the baddie, have his neck at shoulder height, and able to make sure his arm is positioned properly. That is a lot of things that have to go right, for the most probable outcome to even have a chance of occurring.

The problem arises when one of those things is off. The arm is mis placed, the angle is wrong, or the guy twists a little in an effort to get away. Then the safe technique becomes a lethal technique. Because no cop is going to let go and start the fight all over again to try and get a proper hold. Nobody would, I damn sure wouldn’t. He is going to keep squeezing. And those things that won’t happen, all happen. Which is why the hold was banned in so many departments.

That is the problem with the Police Apologists. They assure us that no abuses will happen, and if they do, those who abuse it will be dealt with. Only, they aren’t really dealt with, and the abuses become the norm. We saw the same damned things time and time again. The police needed SWAT teams for extreme situations. Hostage Situations, Terrorist Attacks, and the most extreme events any of us could imagine. Once they had the SWAT teams, the cops figured why not use them? So every search warrant became an excuse to bring out the SWAT team. And every Search Warrant was massaged to show it was really dangerous and the baddies will destroy evidence or kill cops if they are given any warning. Next thing you know, Breanna Taylor is dead, because the Cops screwed up. But that won’t happen you know. It will be fine. The cops will never abuse the no knock warrants. They will only use them in the most extreme searches.

So no, I am not going to be one of those to champion the choke hold. Because it is dangerous unless it is applied perfectly, and even then it is dangerous. I am not going to back down an inch. Not one inch. We have given up yards, hell miles of our freedoms and rights to the extreme circumstances arguments over the last few decades. No. More.

 

[SavannahMann]

PROGS are just dumb is all. Some cities have outlawed choke holds, so imagine if you're a cop and a choke-hold is all there is between life and death. Fucking-A I'm putting them in a choke-hold and any non-pussified police officer will do the same. In the end, cops are quitting.

Further proving PROGS are a disaster. Cops quit and their replacements must be 2nd rate. Leniency rewards and entices bad behavior, and that's exactly what a certain elite desires, their pawns (e.g. governors) are just too dumb and corrupt to know it.

The party of slavery has only changed tactics. Everything they're doing will only have a negative impact on blacks.

Ok. Help me out here. The chokehold is the only thing between life and death for the cop. Ok. The cop has to be behind the baddie to put him in a chokehold. Now, explain to me how the cop manages to get the bad guy turned around so he can put the chokehold on while in a fight for his life and no other technique or move would work.

 

[WTH_Progs?]

PROGS are just dumb is all. Some cities have outlawed choke holds, so imagine if you're a cop and a choke-hold is all there is between life and death. Fucking-A I'm putting them in a choke-hold and any non-pussified police officer will do the same. In the end, cops are quitting.

Further proving PROGS are a disaster. Cops quit and their replacements must be 2nd rate. Leniency rewards and entices bad behavior, and that's exactly what a certain elite desires, their pawns (e.g. governors) are just too dumb and corrupt to know it.

The party of slavery has only changed tactics. Everything they're doing will only have a negative impact on blacks.

Ok. Help me out here. The chokehold is the only thing between life and death for the cop. Ok. The cop has to be behind the baddie to put him in a chokehold. Now, explain to me how the cop manages to get the bad guy turned around so he can put the chokehold on while in a fight for his life and no other technique or move would work.

WTF? Are you saying a cop would never find himself behind a thug?

Where's your head at? Let me guess, you're an only child or only have sisters and you've never so much as wrestled never mind been involved in a fight? I'm right huh?

 

[pknopp]

Wow, where to begin. First, there is no violence that can be done to another “safely”. There are always risks. And the chokehold has a lot of risks. To be done properly, first the person doing it must be in control of their emotions, and insure that their arm is positioned properly. Otherwise damage to the throat will, not may, be the result. That damage could be significant enough to cause death. So the safe technique, if done even a little bit improperly, can result in death.

But there is more. The cop really can’t do it alone, that is to say one on one. The reason is that the baddie if he realizes what is happening will either elbow the cop, stomp on his foot, grab his nuts, or reach up and break the fingers of the locking hand. I know, I was taught to do all of those in the Army when we were doing advanced unarmed combat training.

If you break his fingers, now the cop can’t work his firearm, and is defenseless against someone who can work the firearm. So the cop can’t do it one on one.

So to apply it the situation must be perfect, and you already have to have the baddie outnumbered. But there is more isn’t there? I mean information your post full of assurances did not leave out. Even if it is done properly, there is a risk of injury or death. Probably not, but not definitely. Because we are all made differently.

One of the problems with the Rodney King arrest was that the police lied on their reports. They wrote that they used the swarm technique. When in reality they just beat on him for a while. The swarm technique is using your numbers against the offender. Everyone grabs a limb, and holds on, the people on the arms force them back to be restrained. If you have the superior numbers to effect a choke hold safely, why not go for the limbs and get the suspect restrained?

Proper positioning is vital, if the arm is off a bit, then pressure is put on the hyoid bones, and cartridge of the neck that hold the airway open. So the cop has to be behind the baddie, have his neck at shoulder height, and able to make sure his arm is positioned properly. That is a lot of things that have to go right, for the most probable outcome to even have a chance of occurring.

The problem arises when one of those things is off. The arm is mis placed, the angle is wrong, or the guy twists a little in an effort to get away. Then the safe technique becomes a lethal technique. Because no cop is going to let go and start the fight all over again to try and get a proper hold. Nobody would, I damn sure wouldn’t. He is going to keep squeezing. And those things that won’t happen, all happen. Which is why the hold was banned in so many departments.

That is the problem with the Police Apologists. They assure us that no abuses will happen, and if they do, those who abuse it will be dealt with. Only, they aren’t really dealt with, and the abuses become the norm. We saw the same damned things time and time again. The police needed SWAT teams for extreme situations. Hostage Situations, Terrorist Attacks, and the most extreme events any of us could imagine. Once they had the SWAT teams, the cops figured why not use them? So every search warrant became an excuse to bring out the SWAT team. And every Search Warrant was massaged to show it was really dangerous and the baddies will destroy evidence or kill cops if they are given any warning. Next thing you know, Breanna Taylor is dead, because the Cops screwed up. But that won’t happen you know. It will be fine. The cops will never abuse the no knock warrants. They will only use them in the most extreme searches.

So no, I am not going to be one of those to champion the choke hold. Because it is dangerous unless it is applied perfectly, and even then it is dangerous. I am not going to back down an inch. Not one inch. We have given up yards, hell miles of our freedoms and rights to the extreme circumstances arguments over the last few decades. No. More.

As I noted.......the police abused the tool of no knock warrants and now it is being taken from them so in the end the police should be upset with their fellow officers that abused the tools gave to them.

Instead they protect them.

 

[SavannahMann]

PROGS are just dumb is all. Some cities have outlawed choke holds, so imagine if you're a cop and a choke-hold is all there is between life and death. Fucking-A I'm putting them in a choke-hold and any non-pussified police officer will do the same. In the end, cops are quitting.

Further proving PROGS are a disaster. Cops quit and their replacements must be 2nd rate. Leniency rewards and entices bad behavior, and that's exactly what a certain elite desires, their pawns (e.g. governors) are just too dumb and corrupt to know it.

The party of slavery has only changed tactics. Everything they're doing will only have a negative impact on blacks.

Ok. Help me out here. The chokehold is the only thing between life and death for the cop. Ok. The cop has to be behind the baddie to put him in a chokehold. Now, explain to me how the cop manages to get the bad guy turned around so he can put the chokehold on while in a fight for his life and no other technique or move would work.

WTF? Are you saying a cop would never find himself behind a thug?

Where's your head at? Let me guess, you're an only child or only have sisters and you've never so much as wrestled never mind been involved in a fight? I'm right huh?

You would be better off arguing for this. At least you can do it from more than one angle.

 

[SavannahMann]

Wow, where to begin. First, there is no violence that can be done to another “safely”. There are always risks. And the chokehold has a lot of risks. To be done properly, first the person doing it must be in control of their emotions, and insure that their arm is positioned properly. Otherwise damage to the throat will, not may, be the result. That damage could be significant enough to cause death. So the safe technique, if done even a little bit improperly, can result in death.

But there is more. The cop really can’t do it alone, that is to say one on one. The reason is that the baddie if he realizes what is happening will either elbow the cop, stomp on his foot, grab his nuts, or reach up and break the fingers of the locking hand. I know, I was taught to do all of those in the Army when we were doing advanced unarmed combat training.

If you break his fingers, now the cop can’t work his firearm, and is defenseless against someone who can work the firearm. So the cop can’t do it one on one.

So to apply it the situation must be perfect, and you already have to have the baddie outnumbered. But there is more isn’t there? I mean information your post full of assurances did not leave out. Even if it is done properly, there is a risk of injury or death. Probably not, but not definitely. Because we are all made differently.

One of the problems with the Rodney King arrest was that the police lied on their reports. They wrote that they used the swarm technique. When in reality they just beat on him for a while. The swarm technique is using your numbers against the offender. Everyone grabs a limb, and holds on, the people on the arms force them back to be restrained. If you have the superior numbers to effect a choke hold safely, why not go for the limbs and get the suspect restrained?

Proper positioning is vital, if the arm is off a bit, then pressure is put on the hyoid bones, and cartridge of the neck that hold the airway open. So the cop has to be behind the baddie, have his neck at shoulder height, and able to make sure his arm is positioned properly. That is a lot of things that have to go right, for the most probable outcome to even have a chance of occurring.

The problem arises when one of those things is off. The arm is mis placed, the angle is wrong, or the guy twists a little in an effort to get away. Then the safe technique becomes a lethal technique. Because no cop is going to let go and start the fight all over again to try and get a proper hold. Nobody would, I damn sure wouldn’t. He is going to keep squeezing. And those things that won’t happen, all happen. Which is why the hold was banned in so many departments.

That is the problem with the Police Apologists. They assure us that no abuses will happen, and if they do, those who abuse it will be dealt with. Only, they aren’t really dealt with, and the abuses become the norm. We saw the same damned things time and time again. The police needed SWAT teams for extreme situations. Hostage Situations, Terrorist Attacks, and the most extreme events any of us could imagine. Once they had the SWAT teams, the cops figured why not use them? So every search warrant became an excuse to bring out the SWAT team. And every Search Warrant was massaged to show it was really dangerous and the baddies will destroy evidence or kill cops if they are given any warning. Next thing you know, Breanna Taylor is dead, because the Cops screwed up. But that won’t happen you know. It will be fine. The cops will never abuse the no knock warrants. They will only use them in the most extreme searches.

So no, I am not going to be one of those to champion the choke hold. Because it is dangerous unless it is applied perfectly, and even then it is dangerous. I am not going to back down an inch. Not one inch. We have given up yards, hell miles of our freedoms and rights to the extreme circumstances arguments over the last few decades. No. More.

As I noted.......the police abused the tool of no knock warrants and now it is being taken from them so in the end the police should be upset with their fellow officers that abused the tools gave to them.

Instead they protect them.

It has always been that way in history. We have it, we might as well use it. In war, we argued that the enemy would do it to us, so we would be justified in doing it to them. Every time we see an excuse argued in court for the Police. This was an extreme circumstance, and it needed to be done in this one instance. When the court agrees, the extreme, becomes routine.

In North Carolina, a cop pulled a car over for not having a front license plate. The state the car was from did not issue, nor require, front plates. The cop found drugs. But he was enforcing a non existent law. The court decided that ignorance, on the part of the cop, was just fine. Sure enough, now cops are happily ignorant. If they don’t know they are enforcing non existent laws, they can do more. How many videos are on You Tube of cops swearing that it is illegal to record them? Despite the fact that it is not illegal Anywhere in public.

For years now I have been saying that the pendulum is going to swing, and the cops could minimize the distance it will go by effecting the changes needed themselves. Now, the changes are going to steamroll the cops, and it will be a lot more, and a lot worse.

 

[sakinago]

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

No, they weren't within their rights but they were excused anyway.

The cop that shot Castillo was a coward. The cop that shot Daniel Shaver is a sick person who should never be allowed to handle a gun ever again.

Hence we have riots. Stop the things you mention and we can stop the riots.

By law, yes they were. Which is yet another reason why governments should be feared and perpetually reigned in. Government is the paving company that paves the road to hell on good intentions. The laws that let cops get away with this behavior we’re created because criminals found it was more profitable to shoot cops when they got pulled over than get nabbed for their arrest warrant or for the drugs they were smuggling.

The only case I can recall off the top of my head where someone got away with killing a police officer is when they killed one of their own in Baltimore awhile back. Since that is the case I'm missing how it is profitable.

I’m not going to rely on your anecdotadal

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

No, they weren't within their rights but they were excused anyway.

The cop that shot Castillo was a coward. The cop that shot Daniel Shaver is a sick person who should never be allowed to handle a gun ever again.

Hence we have riots. Stop the things you mention and we can stop the riots.

By law, yes they were. Which is yet another reason why governments should be feared and perpetually reigned in. Government is the paving company that paves the road to hell on good intentions. The laws that let cops get away with this behavior we’re created because criminals found it was more profitable to shoot cops when they got pulled over than get nabbed for their arrest warrant or for the drugs they were smuggling.

The only case I can recall off the top of my head where someone got away with killing a police officer is when they killed one of their own in Baltimore awhile back. Since that is the case I'm missing how it is profitable.

Well we’re not going to rely on the top of your head as evidence. These standards, misguided as they may be, were put in place for a reason. Because cops were dying, and still are. 31 have been killed this year alone.

 

[SavannahMann]

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

No, they weren't within their rights but they were excused anyway.

The cop that shot Castillo was a coward. The cop that shot Daniel Shaver is a sick person who should never be allowed to handle a gun ever again.

Hence we have riots. Stop the things you mention and we can stop the riots.

By law, yes they were. Which is yet another reason why governments should be feared and perpetually reigned in. Government is the paving company that paves the road to hell on good intentions. The laws that let cops get away with this behavior we’re created because criminals found it was more profitable to shoot cops when they got pulled over than get nabbed for their arrest warrant or for the drugs they were smuggling.

The only case I can recall off the top of my head where someone got away with killing a police officer is when they killed one of their own in Baltimore awhile back. Since that is the case I'm missing how it is profitable.

There was one in Texas too. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ome-justice-in-texas-the-raid-on-henry-magee/

No bill by the Grand Jury.

 

[sakinago]

I agree, policing needs a reform. I’ve been saying this since before the Micheal Brown Shooting, which btw was a good shooting. There was no “hands up don’t shoot,” it was more like punch a cop in his patrol car, wrestle him for his gun in the car. Get shot while doing so. Run away, and then turn around and charge him when he gets out of the car. It pisses me off so much that the left often elevates cases like that because they are controversial and not the real cases like breonna Taylor. But declaring all police, and policing as a racist system is a perfect example of throwing the baby out with the bath water. There’s a reason these saying last in humanity for so long, because we continually see examples of boys who cried wolf, chicken littles, or babies getting tossed out with bath water in everyday lives.

I was a kid in the early 90s, you know what people were crying for back then? They’re we’re crying for more policing, less crime. The infamous 94 crime bill was a very popular bipartisan effort. Crime was that bad back then. For Christ sake, NYC elected a republican mayor for the first time in like 50 years because the only thing he ever talked about was reducing crime. And he did. A lot of people rag on Giuliani now, but he won his second term by a landslide. NYC loved him because he cleaned up the city both figuratively and literally. It was really bad before him. I don’t think stop and frisk was constitutional, but you can’t deny that it didn’t work, and that NYC didn’t love him for it. It’s what NYC wanted and why he was a popular mayor even before 9/11 happened.

The officers in the Breonna Taylor killing so far have been protected. We have example after example where the system covered for bad actions.

When you allow this the entire system deservedly gets blamed.

If cops do not want painted as guilty they are going to have to start speaking up and not defend their fellow officers blindly.

I’m pretty sure that cop in breonna Taylor is getting fired and investigated. It’s not as easily cut and dry as Floyd. Either way, yes I agree, there is a problem with the system. There’s multiple problems that I want fixed and I have been ringing the bell about for years. That doesn’t mean the system is rotten to the core. After the massive crime and murder sprees from the 70s 80s and into 90s plus from 9/11, there’s been an outcry from the public for more policing. That’s what we got. Problem is that pendulum swung way too far. Now we’re seeing the pushback from it. What we don’t want is the pendulum swinging too far back. We will get the pendulum swinging too far in the other way when we use hyperbolic statements like “the system is rotten to its core.” We know there’s a direct correlation when crime is reduced in an area, it brings more opportunities to that area and thus lifts the population in the area. These areas need stability more than anything else. Only 9 unarmed black people were killed by police last year. Most of those were justified shootings with people either reaching for visible guns or things like that. Yes police brutality needs to be reformed. This OP aims to address that problem. Yes we do need reforms in some of our laws. Yes we need to get rid of the law enforcement bill of rights. But the rhetoric coming out now on police is going to devastate the African American communities where they are most needed. Not only is defunding the police going to weaken the ability of the police to care about the policing they SHOULD be doing, but the rhetoric is going to cause the police just to not want to go into black communities. And why would they? Any negative interaction is going to get you fired. And we’re talking about a job where you go to meet people usually having one of the worst days in their life.

"Unarmed". Baltimore police were caught planting evidence and with spare guns to plant. We have no real record of what has happened.

It's NOT just about killing people either. While Philandro Castillo did end up dead he was pulled over for having a "wide set nose".

Haven’t heard about that in Baltimore. I’ll have to look into.

Philando Castile is one of my case studies I talk about the most. It’s an example of cops being allowed to shoot you even though they don’t see a weapon. It’s wrong. Reaching cannot be a standard for use of force. I think cops should draw when they see reaching, but shouldn’t be allowed to shoot until they’ve identified a weapon. There’s a famous case I think in Florida of a cop coming up to a guy at a gas tank pumping. The cop asks to see his ID, the guy feels his pants for his wallet, realizes its in his van, goes to get it, and the cop shoots him. Luckily the cop didn’t kill him, but the guy says to the cop right after, you asked me to get my ID and so I went to get it. The guy got shot even complying with the officers orders. On the flip side to philando is the white kid in Nevada crawling on his knees sobbing begging the police not to shoot while they’re yelling at him, he states his pants keep falling down, and they visibly are, he reaches to pull them up and gets smoked. Both cases cops were within their “rights” to shoot which is where the problem lies. It’s a training problem.

No, they weren't within their rights but they were excused anyway.

The cop that shot Castillo was a coward. The cop that shot Daniel Shaver is a sick person who should never be allowed to handle a gun ever again.

Hence we have riots. Stop the things you mention and we can stop the riots.

And your solution is to hold thousands of innocent peoples business hostage by declaring that police behave or else be vandalized or burned down? You think that’s going to convince people? It’s going to convince people without them holding resentment?

No, that is the solution of those who refuse to address a broken system.

No that’s the solution of those who don’t really want a solution and instead want to fuck shit up. Malcolm X actually had an argument to do so during his time. MLK have an even greater excuse to fuck shit up living in the Jim Crow south. MLK chose not to because it would not have produced the desired results. Even Malcolm X eventually realized the truth behind what MLK was saying, and then Malcolm X got killed by his own side for saying it.

To say that no one is being heard is absolute bullshit as well. Empirically the amount of unarmed black men killed by police has dropped 66% from 2016. Again, most of those 9 cases cited were justified. You’re also saying that no one is listening? Are you fucking. Everyone has been listening. It absolutely dominates the news cycle everytime one of these events happen. Floyd completely overshadowed a goddamn worldwide pandemic, and got the entire world to show up for demonstrations. The officer involved, chuavin was fired and charged nearly instantaneously. The other officers were suspended and eventually fired. No easy task when the police, or any other union, is involved.

Here’s the truth, you have a population of around 800,000 officers in the US. Their job is to respond to calls of people usually having a really bad day. The people they interact with are often under the influence of a substance. Many of those people really do not want to talk to the police. Many of these people also have underlying mental health issues. Police often see the worst in humanity. They are the ones who respond to the domestic violence calls, child abuse, rape, battery, assault, murder, etc. Not all of those interactions are going to end ideally. I don’t should absolutely hold cops accountable when it doesn’t. On the flip side, all things consider, the vast majority of those interactions end about as good as one could hope for. America is a pretty safe country because of it. So the hyperbolic speech needs to stop because it isn’t doing any good and will cause harm for the very same people it claims to want to help.