the Book of Mormon

[Avatar4321]

Any American historian of the 19th century social and religious trends of the time should read it, yes.

Many of my good friends are some sort of Mormon, so, I have read through it from front to back, and have perused it many times.

My favorite portion is Mosiah Chapters 3 and 4. I advise all far right, corporate right, and mean-spirited to read it, think about it, and change their ways.

But yet Utah votes 70% republican and votes some of the most far right senators in the country.

Jake has a unique interpretation of those chapters. He seems to think that encouraging people to serve others equates to handing power over to the government to do things.

I encourage you to read the chapters for yourself

Mosiah 2
Mosiah 3
Mosiah 4
Mosiah 5

Do some reading yourself, Avatar, and you will find:

(1) Utah voted 45.1% for Trump, far less than your supposed 70% that he pulled out of the air.

and (2) The priest king in Mosiah commanded the people to participate in the taking care of the poor. The state was theocratic not libertarian.

What does Trump have to do with anything?

How is the people, not the government, being commanded to take care of each other lost on you?

 

[Avatar4321]

I'll watch the musical instead.

The Book is always better

 

[Avatar4321]

Any American historian of the 19th century social and religious trends of the time should read it, yes.

Many of my good friends are some sort of Mormon, so, I have read through it from front to back, and have perused it many times.

My favorite portion is Mosiah Chapters 3 and 4. I advise all far right, corporate right, and mean-spirited to read it, think about it, and change their ways.

But yet Utah votes 70% republican and votes some of the most far right senators in the country.

Jake has a unique interpretation of those chapters. He seems to think that encouraging people to serve others equates to handing power over to the government to do things.

I encourage you to read the chapters for yourself

Mosiah 2
Mosiah 3
Mosiah 4
Mosiah 5

Welcome back, Mormon boy !!

Did you get any insights about why "the challenge" is long and boring?

To wit:

1 - rambles on and on

2 - very long

3 - sad ending.

Remember the movie version of "Tales From The Dark Side" ?

"Little kids love happy endings!"

Asking God after you have humbly studied it out is long and boring?

Why exactly do you expect God to answer you if you make no effort to understand?

 

[Avatar4321]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

Looks like you Avatar4321 live in Lutheran country.

I guess they lost you.

Looks like the Mormons got you.

I'm a transplant.

Well now you Avatar4321 are living in the Lutheran heartland of the USA.

Lots of north German immigrants around the turn of the 1900's (pre WW1) moved there (where you live now) and brought their Lutheran Church with them. My grandfather and his family were among them.

My grandmother however and my mom were both Catholic.

Lutherans are #4 in the USA in size, behind the Catholics at #1, Baptist at #2, and Pentecostal at #3.

You guys (Mormons) are right behind them at #6 in the USA.

So when you add up the Armies Of The Lord (Jesus), that's where the various divisions stand.

In the rest of the world there are two more big churches, but they both don't have a lot of population in the USA. They are the Eastern Orthodox and the Anglican.

Worldwide the Catholics are #1, Eastern Orthodox #2, Baptists #3, Anglican #4, and Lutheran #5. Mormons are a tiny trickle on a worldwide scale.

USA has the most Christians when you add up all the different flavors.

List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

I'm already aware of this. Where are you going with this?

 

[Avatar4321]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

What challenge ?

"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

" And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

"And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." (Moroni 10:3-5)

It's a unique challenge. I don't know any other book that contains a promise that if you ask God He will show you it is true.

So the challenge comes from where ?

I don't know what this references.

The final writer of the Book of Mormon, Moroni, invited all who are blessed to read it for themselves to humbly ask the Lord whether the book is from God.

It's the only Book I know of that encourages people not to just accept it because they say it's from God, but to go to Him to find out if it is. Not even the Bible does this, though the same method could be used with the Bible to learn that it's true.

 

[yiostheoy]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

Looks like you Avatar4321 live in Lutheran country.

I guess they lost you.

Looks like the Mormons got you.

I'm a transplant.

Well now you Avatar4321 are living in the Lutheran heartland of the USA.

Lots of north German immigrants around the turn of the 1900's (pre WW1) moved there (where you live now) and brought their Lutheran Church with them. My grandfather and his family were among them.

My grandmother however and my mom were both Catholic.

Lutherans are #4 in the USA in size, behind the Catholics at #1, Baptist at #2, and Pentecostal at #3.

You guys (Mormons) are right behind them at #6 in the USA.

So when you add up the Armies Of The Lord (Jesus), that's where the various divisions stand.

In the rest of the world there are two more big churches, but they both don't have a lot of population in the USA. They are the Eastern Orthodox and the Anglican.

Worldwide the Catholics are #1, Eastern Orthodox #2, Baptists #3, Anglican #4, and Lutheran #5. Mormons are a tiny trickle on a worldwide scale.

USA has the most Christians when you add up all the different flavors.

List of Christian denominations by number of members - Wikipedia

I'm already aware of this. Where are you going with this?

That you are like a fish out of water there.

 

[yiostheoy]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

What challenge ?

"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

" And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

"And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." (Moroni 10:3-5)

It's a unique challenge. I don't know any other book that contains a promise that if you ask God He will show you it is true.

So the challenge comes from where ?

I don't know what this references.

The final writer of the Book of Mormon, Moroni, invited all who are blessed to read it for themselves to humbly ask the Lord whether the book is from God.

It's the only Book I know of that encourages people not to just accept it because they say it's from God, but to go to Him to find out if it is. Not even the Bible does this, though the same method could be used with the Bible to learn that it's true.

So did you learn anything from this thread or are you still brainwashed?

 

[yiostheoy]

Any American historian of the 19th century social and religious trends of the time should read it, yes.

Many of my good friends are some sort of Mormon, so, I have read through it from front to back, and have perused it many times.

My favorite portion is Mosiah Chapters 3 and 4. I advise all far right, corporate right, and mean-spirited to read it, think about it, and change their ways.

But yet Utah votes 70% republican and votes some of the most far right senators in the country.

Jake has a unique interpretation of those chapters. He seems to think that encouraging people to serve others equates to handing power over to the government to do things.

I encourage you to read the chapters for yourself

Mosiah 2
Mosiah 3
Mosiah 4
Mosiah 5

Welcome back, Mormon boy !!

Did you get any insights about why "the challenge" is long and boring?

To wit:

1 - rambles on and on

2 - very long

3 - sad ending.

Remember the movie version of "Tales From The Dark Side" ?

"Little kids love happy endings!"

Asking God after you have humbly studied it out is long and boring?

Why exactly do you expect God to answer you if you make no effort to understand?

When you talk to God it is called prayer.

When God talks to you it is called schizophrenia.

 

[yiostheoy]

Joseph Smith was a shyster. Not unlike L Ron Hubbard.

I would argue that the Book of Mormon proves otherwise

A book proves nothing.

It would be great to find evidence of who actually wrote it -- I am guessing Sidney Rigdon. He had motive and opportunity, and he was versed enough in Catholic philosophy and some militia duty to be able to pull it off.

Sidney Rigdon - Wikipedia

 

[yiostheoy]

Any American historian of the 19th century social and religious trends of the time should read it, yes.

Many of my good friends are some sort of Mormon, so, I have read through it from front to back, and have perused it many times.

My favorite portion is Mosiah Chapters 3 and 4. I advise all far right, corporate right, and mean-spirited to read it, think about it, and change their ways.

But yet Utah votes 70% republican and votes some of the most far right senators in the country.

Jake has a unique interpretation of those chapters. He seems to think that encouraging people to serve others equates to handing power over to the government to do things.

I encourage you to read the chapters for yourself

Mosiah 2
Mosiah 3
Mosiah 4
Mosiah 5

If you are going to read something, you need to read all of it, not just parts of it.

Suggesting parts of it for reading is just pointing to a fallacious emotional appeal.

 

[yiostheoy]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

I've never really like reading Science Fiction..

There is no science in their fiction.

Sailing ships around 600 BC were barely able to ply the Mediterranean and coastal Spain. They were longboats called galleys used by the Greeks and later the Vikings.

There is no way one of these 7th Century BC boats could ply the Atlantic, Indian, or Pacific Ocean(s) and make it all the way to South America. So the boat trip is out of the question.

Even Columbus with his Spanish caravels needed 3 ships to carry enough supplies to get his crews all the way to the Caribbean from Spain. 3 not 1. You need to bring fresh water, salted meats, dried fruits, dried bread called hardtack, etc. You need 3 ships at a minimum, not 1.

The writer of the Bk. of Morm. did not know jack sh!t about sailing or sea travel.

There is no fiction in it either

The barges of the era of the pre-history Babylonians ?!

The sailing ship across the oceans of the 7th Century BCE Judeans ?!

I'd say there was a lot of fiction in it. And also anachronisms.

 

[yiostheoy]

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.


Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

None of these could have written it themselves.

There was not enough brain power in them.

But they could have agreed to say they saw golden or bronze plates.

Testimony of Eight Witnesses

Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, unto whom this work shall come: That Joseph Smith, Jun., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen. And we lie not, God bearing witness of it.


Christian Whitmer
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jun.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Joseph Smith, Sen.
Hyrum Smith
Samuel H. Smith

None of these could have written it themselves.

There was not enough brain power in them.

But they could have agreed to say they saw golden or bronze plates.

They did say they saw the plates. Because they did. They spent their who loves testifying to it. All had incentives to deny it. Oliver lost an election because he wouldn't. David heard a rumor say he denied it and called the press to clearly and unequivocally reaffirm that he did see the plates. Martin spent his life sharing his experience.

That's just the three witnesses. The other eight included martyrs. Every one has an interesting tale. At least one had his testimony put on his tombstone.

That's one of the miracles of Mormonism. Joseph didn't just have experiences and expect others to take his word for it. He multiple witnesses for almost every major revelation in the restoration.

One of Jos. Smith Jr.'s undoing is his very bad judgment.

This includes his very bad choice of partisan witnesses.

Each of these people had something to gain from their so-called witness statements. Ergo they make poor witnesses.

Smith should have gotten impartial witnesses to be his witnesses. Not yokels bent on profiting from it.

He would have had to haul his golden plates into a university somewhere. Upstate NY is/was rife with old universities at that time.

The president of the university, the deans, and others impartial would have made good witnesses.

But that did not happen.

 

[yiostheoy]

I have friends who have quit the Mormon Church.

Their main objection was that they did not want their kids to become brainwashed.

But they had other concerns as well.

Mormon tithing is religious robbery most typical of sect behavior.

Mormon health laws such as no coffee no tea no wine or alcohol are BAD for your health not good. The Mormon president who made these oddball guidelines laws of the church died of a heart condition that would have been easily cured by regular alcohol use. A glass of wine per day at dinner is a better rule. Abstinence from alcohol is a very bad rule.

And it is too bad we don't know who really wrote the book. Like I said, Sidney Rigdon is the most likely author from a rational perspective. That's what my former Mormon friends told me.

Even if Smith did see God and angels, and even if he did receive golden plates, Smith himself later become corrupted with his own power, ordered a printing press destroyed (violation of 1st Amendment), indulged in other single females and other men's wives, and Brigham Young his successor was little better when it came to the womanizing.

Jos. and Brig. created a culture of polygamy in America which is still with us today.

Jesus said "by their fruits ye shall know them" (Matt. 7:20 KJV). Unless you are brainwashed from birth or are very gullible you ought to be able to see through all this.

Q.E.D.

 

[yiostheoy]

I'll watch the musical instead.

Be careful. You might get brainwashed.

There is a Hollywood movie out regarding Brigham Young.

Brigham Young (1940) - IMDb

 

[JakeStarkey]

Any American historian of the 19th century social and religious trends of the time should read it, yes.

Many of my good friends are some sort of Mormon, so, I have read through it from front to back, and have perused it many times.

My favorite portion is Mosiah Chapters 3 and 4. I advise all far right, corporate right, and mean-spirited to read it, think about it, and change their ways.

But yet Utah votes 70% republican and votes some of the most far right senators in the country.

Jake has a unique interpretation of those chapters. He seems to think that encouraging people to serve others equates to handing power over to the government to do things.

I encourage you to read the chapters for yourself

Mosiah 2
Mosiah 3
Mosiah 4
Mosiah 5

Do some reading yourself, Avatar, and you will find:

(1) Utah voted 45.1% for Trump, far less than your supposed 70% that he pulled out of the air.

and (2) The priest king in Mosiah commanded the people to participate in the taking care of the poor. The state was theocratic not libertarian.

What does Trump have to do with anything?

How is the people, not the government, being commanded to take care of each other lost on you?

Read the instructor's guides for Gospel Doctrine over the last few times on this section of Mosiah. Laughable, utterly laughable that any sensible individual thinks Mosiah or the 19th century LDS church taught economic libertarianism. Both the people in the first part of Mosiah and in the LDS Church lived a very regimented society united temporally and religiously.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

What challenge ?

"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

" And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

"And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." (Moroni 10:3-5)

It's a unique challenge. I don't know any other book that contains a promise that if you ask God He will show you it is true.

So the challenge comes from where ?

I don't know what this references.

The final writer of the Book of Mormon, Moroni, invited all who are blessed to read it for themselves to humbly ask the Lord whether the book is from God.

It's the only Book I know of that encourages people not to just accept it because they say it's from God, but to go to Him to find out if it is. Not even the Bible does this, though the same method could be used with the Bible to learn that it's true.

O.K.

Thanks.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I have friends who have quit the Mormon Church.

Their main objection was that they did not want their kids to become brainwashed.

But they had other concerns as well.

Mormon tithing is religious robbery most typical of sect behavior.

Mormon health laws such as no coffee no tea no wine or alcohol are BAD for your health not good. The Mormon president who made these oddball guidelines laws of the church died of a heart condition that would have been easily cured by regular alcohol use. A glass of wine per day at dinner is a better rule. Abstinence from alcohol is a very bad rule.

And it is too bad we don't know who really wrote the book. Like I said, Sidney Rigdon is the most likely author from a rational perspective. That's what my former Mormon friends told me.

Even if Smith did see God and angels, and even if he did receive golden plates, Smith himself later become corrupted with his own power, ordered a printing press destroyed (violation of 1st Amendment), indulged in other single females and other men's wives, and Brigham Young his successor was little better when it came to the womanizing.

Jos. and Brig. created a culture of polygamy in America which is still with us today.

Jesus said "by their fruits ye shall know them" (Matt. 7:20 KJV). Unless you are brainwashed from birth or are very gullible you ought to be able to see through all this.

Q.E.D.

Their main objection was that they did not want their kids to become brainwashed.

Mormon tithing is religious robbery most typical of sect behavior.

Mormon health laws such as no coffee no tea no wine or alcohol are BAD for your health not good.

And it is too bad we don't know who really wrote the book.

All religions "brainwash". If they didn't, no one would bother with their outrageous and ridiculous beliefs.

I don't know if all religions expect or demand their followers to buy their way in but christianity certainly does.

Alcohol, coffee, tea, smoking ... the family member I mentioned above did all of those things yet looked down on me for not agreeing with her beliefs. IOW, morms are just as hypocritical as other cults.

Does it really matter who wrote it? What I have read of it, and the bible, as well as other cult rules books is gobbledegook. Avatar4321 says its not fiction but of course it is, as is the bible and the others. That too does not matter much.

Ridiculous that the followers of various sects and cults are always haranguing others to buy (literally) into their superstitions and delusions.

As I have always said, others are more than welcome to whatever religion that appeals to them, that gets them though the night and makes it possible for them to crawl out from under their mommy's bed in the morning.

What I expect in return is the same respect. And I expect and demand they abide by the US Constitution - keep it out of schools and govt. And for crying out loud, stay off my front porch.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

What would it take for you to read the Book of Mormon and take the challenge?

What challenge ?

"Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

" And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

"And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things." (Moroni 10:3-5)

It's a unique challenge. I don't know any other book that contains a promise that if you ask God He will show you it is true.

So the challenge comes from where ?

I don't know what this references.

The final writer of the Book of Mormon, Moroni, invited all who are blessed to read it for themselves to humbly ask the Lord whether the book is from God.

It's the only Book I know of that encourages people not to just accept it because they say it's from God, but to go to Him to find out if it is. Not even the Bible does this, though the same method could be used with the Bible to learn that it's true.

"It's the only Book I know of that encourages people not to just accept it because they say it's from God, but to go to Him to find out if it is. Not even the Bible does this, though the same method could be used with the Bible to learn that it's true."

This always cracks me up.

The bible is true and real because the bible says it is true and real.

God is real because the bible says god is real.

The book of mormon is real and true because the book of moron says it is real and true.

God is real because the book of mormon says god is real.

So read the bible/book of moron to learn if god is real and true?

smh

 

[yiostheoy]

Any American historian of the 19th century social and religious trends of the time should read it, yes.

Many of my good friends are some sort of Mormon, so, I have read through it from front to back, and have perused it many times.

My favorite portion is Mosiah Chapters 3 and 4. I advise all far right, corporate right, and mean-spirited to read it, think about it, and change their ways.

But yet Utah votes 70% republican and votes some of the most far right senators in the country.

Jake has a unique interpretation of those chapters. He seems to think that encouraging people to serve others equates to handing power over to the government to do things.

I encourage you to read the chapters for yourself

Mosiah 2
Mosiah 3
Mosiah 4
Mosiah 5

Do some reading yourself, Avatar, and you will find:

(1) Utah voted 45.1% for Trump, far less than your supposed 70% that he pulled out of the air.

and (2) The priest king in Mosiah commanded the people to participate in the taking care of the poor. The state was theocratic not libertarian.

What does Trump have to do with anything?

How is the people, not the government, being commanded to take care of each other lost on you?

Read the instructor's guides for Gospel Doctrine over the last few times on this section of Mosiah. Laughable, utterly laughable that any sensible individual thinks Mosiah or the 19th century LDS church taught economic libertarianism. Both the people in the first part of Mosiah and in the LDS Church lived a very regimented society united temporally and religiously.

Like I said before, it all depends on who wrote it, and the most likely rational person is Sidney Rigdon.

What Rigdon was doing was simply plagiarizing Biblical Christianity.

The goal was to start his own business as a church group.

He succeeded phenomenally and the book became a bestseller.

However he was cheated out of the leadership when Brig. Young took over.

So what did he get for his troubles? Very little.

What did the Mormons get?

Polygamy.

Free lands in 40 acre plots in Utah Territory.

And a new church that rapes them financially and brainwashes their children.

And also bad health laws from stoic living.

 

[yiostheoy]

I do not see any progress being made by Avatar4321 .

He seems to be growing even more fanatical, not less.

He seems to by trying to spread his scourge to more victims.

How do you punish someone who is trying to brainwash others ???

Tarring and feathering seems appropriate here.

Or he can be run out.