The death of Judas Iscariot

[Intense]

The Concept of Unalienable Right's, that it is a Sin to Harm, or Steal, that We are Each of Value, that We Each Matter, that We Each, in Matters of Conscience, account to Our Creator, Our Protector, first, in All things, does Matter, to at least some of Us.

From a Political Perspective.
Religious Freedom Page: Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, James Madison (1785)

 

[Cecilie1200]

No, it was said it's ALWAYS a mistake to mix state and religion, and the lame example was the Crusades and the Inquisition, both political undertakings that took place CENTURIES and MILLENIA ago.

I provided you with a current example. I'm sorry, is Islam somehow exempt from the statement? Didn't you make the statement? Why would you only want to use ancient examples (and in fact, the Crusades were undertaken in response to Islamic invasion of Christian lands, including France and Spain) if you are making a statement, when there are current examples available?

You should be careful about what you introduce into the conversation if you're that touchy. Don't accuse Christians of oppression and whine about the horrible aspect of state-supported religion, but forget that Islam is oppressing people RIGHT NOW.

State supported religion is horrible. It's of no use to God, and of no use to humans. It's only of use to the state.

So you agree that government is, at best, a necessary evil, and religion should be protected from it.

No, of course not. You blame the religion that's co-opted by the state, instead of the state doing the co-opting.

 

[JoeB131]

Atheists and agnostics are often morally and socially responsible people. Religious faith is not necessary for morality.

True, because religious faith is something that led to stuff like the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition.

Those were BOTH political undertakings.

And how long ago did they take place?

Currently, the only religious atrocities taking place are those inflicted upon people by ISLAM.

Obviously, you missed the whole Ethnic Cleansing by Christians in the balkans.

Or how German Soldiers wore belt buckles that read "Gott Mitt Uns" on them when they were gassing the Jews.

 

[Iridescence]

Joe... perhaps in 50 or so years from now we will be looking back to today's favored 'American Arrogant' clothing line and see things through different spiritual eyes than the one's we seem to be using today as a society.

 

[JoeB131]

Joe... perhaps in 50 or so years from now we will be looking back to today's favored 'American Arrogant' clothing line and see things through different spiritual eyes than the one's we seem to be using today as a society.

Not my point at all.

My point was that KosherGirl was trying to once again try to claim that Christians haven't murdered people over a sky pixie recently, when in fact, they were doing it within the last century.

The Nazis invoked God to justify what they were doing, and God didn't do a damned thing about it. It took the Godless Red Army to put a stop to that shit.

 

[Iridescence]

Perhaps the Nazis only aimed to invoke God when by all facts... they got less. Perhaps that should keep all of our mouths shut unless we want something far worse than what Hitler did to come about. There are other ways... to invoke.

 

[JoeB131]

Perhaps the Nazis only aimed to invoke God when by all facts... they got less. Perhaps that should keep all of our mouths shut unless we want something far worse than what Hitler did to come about. There are other ways... to invoke.

Okay, now you aren't making sense, and I would suggest you learn to phrase your arguments better.

 

[Care4all]

Joe... perhaps in 50 or so years from now we will be looking back to today's favored 'American Arrogant' clothing line and see things through different spiritual eyes than the one's we seem to be using today as a society.

Not my point at all.

My point was that KosherGirl was trying to once again try to claim that Christians haven't murdered people over a sky pixie recently, when in fact, they were doing it within the last century.

The Nazis invoked God to justify what they were doing, and God didn't do a damned thing about it. It took the Godless Red Army to put a stop to that shit.

fyi you seem to be lacking in your history/knowledge on Hitler, the nazis and religion/christianity.....Hitler was not a Christian, though he and his cohorts contorted it for their power.... do a little reading or watch the History Channel's extensive documentaries on the topic!!! It is quite interesting!

 

[JoeB131]

Joe... perhaps in 50 or so years from now we will be looking back to today's favored 'American Arrogant' clothing line and see things through different spiritual eyes than the one's we seem to be using today as a society.

Not my point at all.

My point was that KosherGirl was trying to once again try to claim that Christians haven't murdered people over a sky pixie recently, when in fact, they were doing it within the last century.

The Nazis invoked God to justify what they were doing, and God didn't do a damned thing about it. It took the Godless Red Army to put a stop to that shit.

fyi you seem to be lacking in your history/knowledge on Hitler, the nazis and religion/christianity.....Hitler was not a Christian, though he and his cohorts contorted it for their power.... do a little reading or watch the History Channel's extensive documentaries on the topic!!! It is quite interesting!

Well, the university that gave me a degree in history would probably disagree with you. I would consider them a better source than the TV network that does specials on UFO's and Truckers and Pawn shops.

What you are engaging in here is the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Hitler couldn't have been a Christian because he engaged in behavior you find abhorent.

The reality is that Hitler was born Catholic, baptized, and invoked religious imagery his entire career. The Vatican reached agreements with him because they saw him as someone who would protect their interests against the Bolsheviks.

The fact is, that in German Christian Culture, anti-Semitism ran pretty deep. Martin Luther published a books called "The Jews and their Lies", which I promise you, your Lutheran Synods in this country lock in the attic like a crazy uncle.

When Hitler started sewing his seeds of hate, they found ground made very fertile by the Catholic and Lutheran Churches in Germany.

After the war, yeah, everyone felt really, really bad about it, and you got all the claims about HItler being into the occult or an atheist or a pagan or some other such nonsense.

BUt the guys wearing the "Gott Mit Uns" belt buckles were Christians, whose churches had no problem with what they were doing for the Fatherland. Until they lost.

 

[SAT2]

So you agree that government is, at best, a necessary evil, and religion should be protected from it.

No, of course not. You blame the religion that's co-opted by the state, instead of the state doing the co-opting.

Again, your anger and pettiness destroy your ability to read the simplest comment.

Neither religion nor government are inherently evil. Both can be used for bad or for good.

But religion is not the business of government, and when government endorses, or promotes religion, it's dangerous. A state religion is of use to the state, as a means of control. It's not of use to God, and it's not of use to humanity. Religious views are a matter of individual conscience.

Well, the university that gave me a degree in history would probably disagree with you. I would consider them a better source than the TV network that does specials on UFO's and Truckers and Pawn shops.

What you are engaging in here is the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. Hitler couldn't have been a Christian because he engaged in behavior you find abhorent.

The reality is that Hitler was born Catholic, baptized, and invoked religious imagery his entire career. The Vatican reached agreements with him because they saw him as someone who would protect their interests against the Bolsheviks.

The fact is, that in German Christian Culture, anti-Semitism ran pretty deep. Martin Luther published a books called "The Jews and their Lies", which I promise you, your Lutheran Synods in this country lock in the attic like a crazy uncle.

When Hitler started sewing his seeds of hate, they found ground made very fertile by the Catholic and Lutheran Churches in Germany.

After the war, yeah, everyone felt really, really bad about it, and you got all the claims about HItler being into the occult or an atheist or a pagan or some other such nonsense.

BUt the guys wearing the "Gott Mit Uns" belt buckles were Christians, whose churches had no problem with what they were doing for the Fatherland. Until they lost.

I think some of what you say is absolutely, and some of what you say is not. I don't think she's using the No True Scotsman fallacy, I think she's pointing out that Hitler wasn't a religious person, regardless of his baptism, and that he actively attacked religious people. Nazism was an exercise in pure power, by any means available.

 

[jillian]

Joe... perhaps in 50 or so years from now we will be looking back to today's favored 'American Arrogant' clothing line and see things through different spiritual eyes than the one's we seem to be using today as a society.

Not my point at all.

My point was that KosherGirl was trying to once again try to claim that Christians haven't murdered people over a sky pixie recently, when in fact, they were doing it within the last century.

The Nazis invoked God to justify what they were doing, and God didn't do a damned thing about it. It took the Godless Red Army to put a stop to that shit.

fyi you seem to be lacking in your history/knowledge on Hitler, the nazis and religion/christianity.....Hitler was not a Christian, though he and his cohorts contorted it for their power.... do a little reading or watch the History Channel's extensive documentaries on the topic!!! It is quite interesting!

you're right about hitler not being a christian, care. and as misguided as joe is, he's correct that hitler's adherent's invoked christianity as a means of gathering public sentiment against the jews.

 

[jillian]

No, it was said it's ALWAYS a mistake to mix state and religion, and the lame example was the Crusades and the Inquisition, both political undertakings that took place CENTURIES and MILLENIA ago.

I provided you with a current example. I'm sorry, is Islam somehow exempt from the statement? Didn't you make the statement? Why would you only want to use ancient examples (and in fact, the Crusades were undertaken in response to Islamic invasion of Christian lands, including France and Spain) if you are making a statement, when there are current examples available?

You should be careful about what you introduce into the conversation if you're that touchy. Don't accuse Christians of oppression and whine about the horrible aspect of state-supported religion, but forget that Islam is oppressing people RIGHT NOW.

State supported religion is horrible. It's of no use to God, and of no use to humans. It's only of use to the state.

So you agree that government is, at best, a necessary evil, and religion should be protected from it.

No, of course not. You blame the religion that's co-opted by the state, instead of the state doing the co-opting.

government is what protects me from your religion.

we already know what happens when religion is the government.... it's called the dark ages.

 

[earlycuyler]

State supported religion is horrible. It's of no use to God, and of no use to humans. It's only of use to the state.

So you agree that government is, at best, a necessary evil, and religion should be protected from it.

No, of course not. You blame the religion that's co-opted by the state, instead of the state doing the co-opting.

government is what protects me from your religion.

we already know what happens when religion is the government.... it's called the dark ages.

You are so stupid. And that would go for your other incarnation cammmnpble as well. You are saying ( again ) that the church (christian) caused the dark ages. soon Joe the dots will be connected between you and cammmpbell. It is going to be fun to watch you lie about it again. In the mean time, I hear they need a pair of stinky socks for malaria reserch. You and your alter ego would be perfect.

 

[SAT2]

Are you familiar with the behavior of the Catholic Church in those times?

 

[earlycuyler]

Are you familiar with the behavior of the Catholic Church in those times?

Assuming you are not one of Joes socks I will ask you to direct me to the account of the Catholic churches action that caused the dark ages pleas. As I remember, those days sucked for just about everyone .

 

[koshergrl]

State supported religion is horrible. It's of no use to God, and of no use to humans. It's only of use to the state.

So you agree that government is, at best, a necessary evil, and religion should be protected from it.

No, of course not. You blame the religion that's co-opted by the state, instead of the state doing the co-opting.

government is what protects me from your religion.

we already know what happens when religion is the government.... it's called the dark ages.

Fiddlesticks. You don't need protection from my religion Jillian. You need protection from governments that would tell people whether or not they can adhere to a particular religion. They've done it in the name of Catholicism, Protestantism, Islam and Hindu. Probably more.

And you need to bone up on the Dark Ages. I keep seeing that pop up and it's sheer ignorance to say the Dark Ages "happened" because of religion or faith, that's nonsense. The Dark Ages followed the FALL OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE. The church started to move in to fill the void, but the void wasn't because of the church. Historians don't even use the term any more because it has a negative connotation and history ignorami attach all sorts of silly meanings to it that have nothing to do with history, or reality. Like the current USMB fad of claiming the Dark Ages were caused by religion. IT WAS INITIALLY CALLED "DARK" BECAUSE WE KNEW SO LITTLE ABOUT IT. Not because it was particularly dismal.

It was made more dismal by occurrences of The Plague..but that was not caused by Christianity, for pete's sakes.

It was also the last days of Islam conquests of Christian cultures that rocked the world, and not in a good way. People sought God because they were afraid, and hungry, and sick. Incidentally, most historians today call it the Early Middle Ages because so many people are misled by the term "dark". Kindly quit propagating foolishness about it.

 

[BluePhantom]

You are so stupid. And that would go for your other incarnation cammmnpble as well. You are saying ( again ) that the church (christian) caused the dark ages. soon Joe the dots will be connected between you and cammmpbell. It is going to be fun to watch you lie about it again. In the mean time, I hear they need a pair of stinky socks for malaria reserch. You and your alter ego would be perfect.

Well the church didn't "cause" the dark ages but they sure as hell didn't help matters much. After the fall of Rome there was a massive power vacuum in Europe and the church was the most organized and powerful political entity. They wielded that power with an iron fist and many of the traditional beliefs our society holds about God today came from their lust for power and dominance. We're talking about a period of time that lasted roughly 1,000 years so different things were the norm at different times, but there were some periods for example where reading was illegal except for nobility. Certainly reading in Latin was a huge no-no and in many cases punishable by death. Of course Bibles were only written in Latin so it was basically a situation where anyone aside from a member of the clergy or nobility who read the Bible for themselves ended up getting killed.

The church really did try to keep the people ignorant and completely dependent upon the church even above the kings and disagreeing with the church was going to get you hanged, decapitated, burnt at the stake, tortured to death.....sometimes all of them. So when the church said for example "disobeying God will result in punishment" they made sure they delivered in very ruthless and grotesque ways. And because no one could read the Bible, of course the people had to take the church's word for what would be disobedience to God. Well many of these concepts (such as hell just as one example) were flat out made up by the church and pounded into the heads of the people in order to control the actions of the people....and the people knew no better because they couldn't read the Bible and find out for themselves. Even worse if they DARED suggest that the church was wrong they're a dead man and maybe their family too.

Well fuck...one can imagine not only the atrocities committed by the church but the effect it had on slowing the rate of development socially and technologically because of that lack of education and terror among the people. Still to this day we feel the effects because of some of those beliefs that the church created in order to control the people (and the kings) have endured.

So no, the church didn't "cause" the Dark Ages, but they sure played the major role in keeping them "dark" for as long as they possibly could and in the end interfering with a person's understanding of God and ability to connect with God on an individual spiritual level.

 

[earlycuyler]

You are so stupid. And that would go for your other incarnation cammmnpble as well. You are saying ( again ) that the church (christian) caused the dark ages. soon Joe the dots will be connected between you and cammmpbell. It is going to be fun to watch you lie about it again. In the mean time, I hear they need a pair of stinky socks for malaria reserch. You and your alter ego would be perfect.

Well the church didn't "cause" the dark ages but they sure as hell didn't help matters much. After the fall of Rome there was a massive power vacuum in Europe and the church was the most organized and powerful political entity. They wielded that power with an iron fist and many of the traditional beliefs our society holds about God today came from their lust for power and dominance. We're talking about a period of time that lasted roughly 1,000 years so different things were the norm at different times, but there were some periods for example where reading was illegal except for nobility. Certainly reading in Latin was a huge no-no and in many cases punishable by death. Of course Bibles were only written in Latin so it was basically a situation where anyone aside from a member of the clergy or nobility who read the Bible for themselves ended up getting killed.

The church really did try to keep the people ignorant and completely dependent upon the church even above the kings and disagreeing with the church was going to get you hanged, decapitated, burnt at the stake, tortured to death.....sometimes all of them. So when the church said for example "disobeying God will result in punishment" they made sure they delivered in very ruthless and grotesque ways. And because no one could read the Bible, of course the people had to take the church's word for what would be disobedience to God. Well many of these concepts (such as hell just as one example) were flat out made up by the church and pounded into the heads of the people in order to control the actions of the people....and the people knew no better because they couldn't read the Bible and find out for themselves. Even worse if they DARED suggest that the church was wrong they're a dead man and maybe their family too.

Well fuck...one can imagine not only the atrocities committed by the church but the effect it had on slowing the rate of development socially and technologically because of that lack of education and terror among the people. Still to this day we feel the effects because of some of those beliefs that the church created in order to control the people (and the kings) have endured.

So no, the church didn't "cause" the Dark Ages, but they sure played the major role in keeping them "dark" for as long as they possibly could and in the end interfering with a person's understanding of God and ability to connect with God on an individual spiritual level.

Ok, so the church committed all the atrocities, and made the dark ages dark. But that's just not so, and does in no way point to worship of God as the reason for there actions. They were called the dark ages because everything sucked, and anyone who could was struggling to be THE power in the known world. The smart ones used the church to reign everyone in. Sick men, read that MEN , used Gods word for political reasons, much like politicians do now. Compared to other civilizations, the dark ages with the inquisition thrown would not even stack up side to side in comparison to the blood shed in the name in religion. Wouldn't even be close. Christianity had nothing at all to do with the dark ages, evil people did. As for keeping the people ignorant, that was common among ALL governments whose theologies served a crown. Your whole comment is nothing more then an anti christian rant ? Even the white Earth worshiping Pagans everyone is so in love with had there power mongering religious leaders. The average schlub just was not allowed to learn how to read the goat innards, he had to go to the head Pagen.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Has anyone mentioned the "Gospel of Judas"? It's his side of the story and really tells a totally different tale.

 

[BluePhantom]

Has anyone mentioned the "Gospel of Judas"? It's his side of the story and really tells a totally different tale.

Many times.