The Facts on Raising the Minimum Wage When Unemployment Is High

[kiwiman127]

It's a pretty basic concept. You redistribute wealth downward and it acts as economic stimulus.

too stupid!! if true we'd all know it and recessions and depressions would be a thing of the past

Those with less need won't be spending extra income,

too stupid by 1000%. they won't spend so they will save and in Econ 101 S=I( savings equals investment) the economy grows and creates only with investment. Think!!!

but those whose lives will be greatly improved with a small increase will circulate it into the economy.

until the artificial spending stops and the recession/depression stimulative bubble bursts.

Why are you here if you have never been to college???

Then,,,why do you continue to post here?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

It's a pretty basic concept. You redistribute wealth downward and it acts as economic stimulus.

too stupid!! if true we'd all know it and recessions and depressions would be a thing of the past




too stupid by 1000%. they won't spend so they will save and in Econ 101 S=I( savings equals investment) the economy grows and creates only with investment. Think!!!

but those whose lives will be greatly improved with a small increase will circulate it into the economy.

until the artificial spending stops and the recession/depression stimulative bubble bursts.

Why are you here if you have never been to college???

Then,,,why do you continue to post here?

personal attack from typical liberal who lacks IQ for substance

 

[Supposn]

I get so tired of stupid people posting chit all over the boards. Talk of raising the min wage is nothing more than vote buying, just like deductions and welfare. If raising min wage was the answer, why not make it 40 buck an hour? Because you would have a collapse in the economy.... If min wage fixed poverty, why are there so many mother fuckers living in poverty?

More or less, the retarded idea of a min wage has absolutely failed. So by all means, keep doing more of something that fails to ever live up to a single benchmark ever set at any period in time since it's conception.

Avorysuds, I’m among those advocating the U.S. Congress pass one more increase of the federal minimum wage rate and thereafter non-partisan statisticians will determine the annual modifications necessary to retain the rate’s purchasing power. (That method of updating has been working well for retaining individual Social Security retiree payments’ purchasing powers).

Congress could consider your suggested $40/Hr, but I suspect that would be too much to start with.
You consider the minimum wage as a failure because it hasn’t “fixed poverty”? I appreciate the concept of retaining the purchasing power of a federal minimum wage rate because although it doesn’t eliminate poverty, it does reduce it to be less than otherwise at no net expense to the federal budget and as a net economic benefit.

Is it only raising the minimum wage or is it the minimum wage itself that you consider as “nothing more than vote buying”?

I sympathize with your difficulty of opposing concepts that consistently enjoy voters’ support. You’re among those that are attempting to reverse the populist policy directions that the FDR new deal began almost an entire century ago. Populist policies have continued to be increasingly adopted and expanded by almost all, (including the USA’s) major democratic republics.

Refer to:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/232006-consequences-of-repealing-minimum-wage-rates.html

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

to retain the rate’s purchasing power.

too stupid and liberal of course. Price fixing just distorts an economy and slows down economic growth which is why we don't do it!! Nixon tried it-remember??

 

[Rshermr]

too stupid!! if true we'd all know it and recessions and depressions would be a thing of the past




too stupid by 1000%. they won't spend so they will save and in Econ 101 S=I( savings equals investment) the economy grows and creates only with investment. Think!!!




until the artificial spending stops and the recession/depression stimulative bubble bursts.

Why are you here if you have never been to college???

Then,,,why do you continue to post here?

personal attack from typical liberal who lacks IQ for substance

Funny. An attack from a con tool and admitted libertarian. Who could be more ignorant than a libertarian. A libertarian is someone who can never find a country that has the economic system he adores. Most libertarians get smart enough to give it up by puberty, but not ed. He has his nose so far up the Koch brothers ass he believes everything they tell him to. But then, at least he is paid to post. He simply lacks any integrity. Integrity is absolutely of no importance to him.
Today, again ed took one of my posts and changed the wording, then responded to it. When i pointed it out, I heard nothing from him. Not that I expected to. I would feel like a real slime ball, but I guess that when you are ed, that is just nromal.

 

[Rshermr]

Wow, another proud libertarian. Can YOU name a successful economy that is libertarian?? My bet is that you will come back with some really stupid answer or you will run from the question. Because, you see, if you can not name one, why the hell are you a Libertarian.
As I have said, most libertarians give it up by the time they reach puberty.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Who could be more ignorant than a libertarian.

dear, Thomas Jefferson, Robert Nosick, Milton Friedman, William Buckley Jr. and Rush Limbaugh were/are libertarian but I guess you're way way too illiterate to know that.


See why we are 100% positive a liberal will be slow, so very very slow!!

 

[Rshermr]

I get so tired of stupid people posting chit all over the boards. Talk of raising the min wage is nothing more than vote buying, just like deductions and welfare. If raising min wage was the answer, why not make it 40 buck an hour? Because you would have a collapse in the economy.... If min wage fixed poverty, why are there so many mother fuckers living in poverty?

More or less, the retarded idea of a min wage has absolutely failed. So by all means, keep doing more of something that fails to ever live up to a single benchmark ever set at any period in time since it's conception.

Well, sorry you are so tired. I really enjoy finding Libertarians. Admitted ones, at that. Perhaps you can answer my question. Most libertarians just avoid the question. Which is: Can you name just one successful country with a libertarian economy?

My bet is you can not. The web is full of wanabe libertarians trying to find one. And one well healed libertarian is building an island that will be libertarian. Funny. Anyone who backs a looser fascinates me.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Can you name just one successful country with a libertarian economy?

Nor one with a socialist, capitalist, communist, Fabian, or Marxist economy. What you pretend is brilliant Socratic question is actually quite meaningless.

See why we are positive a liberal will be slow, so very very slow!!

 

[Rshermr]

Most of the labor economics literature finds that minimum wage effects on unemployment are second tier.

I don't know what "most" or "second tier" mean. Do you have a paper I could look at?

Like anything else in economics, things are going to depend on the assumptions of the model, the variables chosen, the model chosen, the time frame of the study, and the sample size used. Additionally, I think that macro relationships change, variables fluctuate, variances change, preferences change, elastacities change, etc... There are probably times when min. wage effects have a big impact on employment and times when they don't.

Increasing incomes of everyone working at say less than fifteen dollars per hour would go overwhelmingly to increased demand, which is at the root of our growth problem right now.

Maybe it would; I have no idea how you arrived at such a certain conclusion though. I could come up with a theory that says that's the effect we should see if min. wage is increased, but I could also come up with a theory that says the opposite. I have no idea what will actually show up in the data though, and I don't think anyone else does either.

Jesus,, man. Just look up second tier. I find it hard to believe a well educated guy like you claim to be does not know. Or are you just kidding.
What Old Fart is saying, as far as I have seen, is COMPLETELY rational. And the lit tends to support him. I have a bs in econ, about a million years ago, and have spent years outside of class rooms studying macro concepts, including but definitely not limited to labor issues.
The concept that a minor increase in the min wage, up to as much as $10, is going to have some major effect on the ue rate is to me unlikely. And if there is anything at all, I would expect it to be temporary. And, there are other advantages. It would be stimulative, though the amount of stimulus would not be great.

What it will do, as you can see on this board, is make the far right squeal like pigs. And say all sorts of unsupported and unsupported things that they will say as though they know what they are talking about.

 

[Rshermr]

I get so tired of stupid people posting chit all over the boards. Talk of raising the min wage is nothing more than vote buying, just like deductions and welfare.

Not nearly as tired as I get with postings from economic illiterates such as you. One ad hominum deserves another.

If raising min wage was the answer, why not make it 40 buck an hour?

Nice try at a straw man argument. Deduct ten points.

Because you would have a collapse in the economy

And your evidence for this is? Remember you are trying to refute an argument that cited actual economic research. Either get a source or an economics degree before assuming you speak as an expert.

.... If min wage fixed poverty, why are there so many mother fuckers living in poverty?

More or less, the retarded idea of a min wage has absolutely failed. So by all means, keep doing more of something that fails to ever live up to a single benchmark ever set at any period in time since it's conception.

Actually I've seen a good amount of research that indicates that the minimum wage is responsible for a good part of economic growth in this country over the last sixty years, and a large factor in reducing poverty. I'd dig it up for you, but since you don't respond to evidence and live in a fact free and logic ffee zone, it's not worth the effort.

Ignorance can be cured. Dumb is forever.

Saw a pretty comprehensive study of stupid people. Where stupid included both ignorant and dumb. So the last sentence in your post caught my eye. One of the findings was that while smart people know how much they do not know, stupid people do not. And as a result, stupid people are those out there saying things with great conviction. While those who are smart tend to be more tentative.
So, I may not be too smart, but I am old. And that exactly matches what I have seen. Ever been to a tea party affair?? Jesus, they have perfected stupid. And then there is this board, with more stupid people than should be allowed in one place at one time.

Thanks for the chuckle.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

And then there is this board, with more stupid people than should be allowed in one place at one time.

if any of the stupid people are conservative/libertarian please give the most substantive example you have of their stupidity or admit as a liberal you lack the IQ to do so.

See why we say slow, so very very slow.

 

[oldfart]

Most of the labor economics literature finds that minimum wage effects on unemployment are second tier.

I don't know what "most" or "second tier" mean. Do you have a paper I could look at?

Second tier effects in econometrics are those that when you run a multiple regression analysis are statistically significant but not among the two to four variables that normally explain 80%+ of the variation. The usual first tier determinants of unemployment are demand related (changes in government spending, net exports changing due to currency fluctuations, changes in consumer demand using a lagged income variable, changes in investment using a lagged demand variable, interest rate changes, and expected inflation rates).

"Most" is my SWAG based on 40 years of experience in labor economics. I'm sure Google search would return a couple of good survey papers. The usual suspects in government (bls.gov, cbo.gov, whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/microsites/ERP_2012) should have some stuff.

Like anything else in economics, things are going to depend on the assumptions of the model, the variables chosen, the model chosen, the time frame of the study, and the sample size used. Additionally, I think that macro relationships change, variables fluctuate, variances change, preferences change, elastacities change, etc... There are probably times when min. wage effects have a big impact on employment and times when they don't.

Yeah, but these things don't change a lot over time periods of a few years. The methodology is pretty cut and dried. Sample sizes in national income accounts are huge. It takes major policy changes or external shocks to move the results in a model very much.

Increasing incomes of everyone working at say less than fifteen dollars per hour would go overwhelmingly to increased demand, which is at the root of our growth problem right now.

Maybe it would; I have no idea how you arrived at such a certain conclusion though. I could come up with a theory that says that's the effect we should see if min. wage is increased, but I could also come up with a theory that says the opposite. I have no idea what will actually show up in the data though, and I don't think anyone else does either.[/QUOTE]

OK everybody can come up with a theory. Postulate one and see if it predicts. I use a version of Wharton Econometrics for a macro model, and it works pretty well. You get roughly the same results out of the CBO baseline model (although I think the February revision is way off; that's a discussion I don't mind getting into and I'll give my alternate projects and we can see how it pans out.).

Econometric models are how we test theories. Theories are a dime a dozen; you can make a theoretical argument for almost any policy position. The trick is to get one that fits data, predicts well, and is internally consistent. It's a game anyone can play, just understand the rules.

 

[Rshermr]

And then there is this board, with more stupid people than should be allowed in one place at one time.

if any of the stupid people are conservative/libertarian please give the most substantive example you have of their stupidity or admit as a liberal you lack the IQ to do so.

See why we say slow, so very very slow.

Stupid is believing in an economic system that has never existed for any period of time. Like a libertarian economy. There you go, dipshit.

 

[Rshermr]

I get so tired of stupid people posting chit all over the boards. Talk of raising the min wage is nothing more than vote buying, just like deductions and welfare. If raising min wage was the answer, why not make it 40 buck an hour? Because you would have a collapse in the economy.... If min wage fixed poverty, why are there so many mother fuckers living in poverty?

More or less, the retarded idea of a min wage has absolutely failed. So by all means, keep doing more of something that fails to ever live up to a single benchmark ever set at any period in time since it's conception.

Avorysuds, I’m among those advocating the U.S. Congress pass one more increase of the federal minimum wage rate and thereafter non-partisan statisticians will determine the annual modifications necessary to retain the rate’s purchasing power. (That method of updating has been working well for retaining individual Social Security retiree payments’ purchasing powers).

Congress could consider your suggested $40/Hr, but I suspect that would be too much to start with.
You consider the minimum wage as a failure because it hasn’t “fixed poverty”? I appreciate the concept of retaining the purchasing power of a federal minimum wage rate because although it doesn’t eliminate poverty, it does reduce it to be less than otherwise at no net expense to the federal budget and as a net economic benefit.

Is it only raising the minimum wage or is it the minimum wage itself that you consider as “nothing more than vote buying”?

I sympathize with your difficulty of opposing concepts that consistently enjoy voters’ support. You’re among those that are attempting to reverse the populist policy directions that the FDR new deal began almost an entire century ago. Populist policies have continued to be increasingly adopted and expanded by almost all, (including the USA’s) major democratic republics.

Refer to:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/232006-consequences-of-repealing-minimum-wage-rates.html

Respectfully, Supposn

Nice post. Of course, I am sure you know that ed just posts dogma. He is not interested in any research, or any studies of a subject. He simply is there try to affect peoples beliefs. Not really working, I suspect.

 

[Supposn]

A Progressive scheme to keep people unemployed, it keeps the unemployable, unemployed because businesses won't take a chances.

An enforced lesser federal minimum wage, (i.e. FMW) rate permits more jobs at or very near the minimum rate to exist; (i.e. a lesser rate of unemployment).

The FMW rate affects all USA wage rates but it doesn’t equally affect them all. The extent of FMW rate’s effect upon the market rate for any task is inversely related to the difference between the task’s rate and the FMW rate; (i.e. due to the effect of a lesser FMW rate, the less a worker earns, the more the greater they’ll be financially hurting).

Currently many, if not most of our poorest earning workers do not qualify for public assistance.

If the FMW rates reduced or eliminated, the purchasing power of all wage earners will be reduced to the extent that both the numbers and proportions of full time employees in need for public assistance will greatly increase. Our public assistance rolls will increase in numbers; a lesser proportion of those in poverty will be unemployed, a much greater proportion of them will be employed full time and the proportion, numbers and extent of our nation’s poverty will be increased.

To the extent that we permit the purchasing power of our FMW rate to be reduced, we harm our economy. I’ve always been an advocate for annually pegging the FMW rate to the purchasing power of the U.S. dollar. It would not simply be an economic stimulus but a permanent benefit to our economy.

Refer to:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/232006-consequences-of-repealing-minimum-wage-rates.html

Respectfully, Supposn

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

It would not simply be an economic stimulus but a permanent benefit to our economy.

this of course is perfectly stupid liberalism just like a import tax would be a stimulus. There is no free lunch. Why not repeat it 1000 times until it sinks in? Driving up wages and so prices to limit demand and and employment just distorts the free market. No net gain is possible from the idiotic libturd free lunch idea either.

We got from the stone age to here with new inventions. Why not repeat that 1000 times too!! A poor man today is better off than than a rich man was 50 years ago, 100 years ago, and 1000 years ago because of Republican supply-side inventions. If you want to help the poor become a Republican supply sider!!

Is this really over your head!

 

[Papageorgio]

I get so tired of stupid people posting chit all over the boards. Talk of raising the min wage is nothing more than vote buying, just like deductions and welfare. If raising min wage was the answer, why not make it 40 buck an hour? Because you would have a collapse in the economy.... If min wage fixed poverty, why are there so many mother fuckers living in poverty?

More or less, the retarded idea of a min wage has absolutely failed. So by all means, keep doing more of something that fails to ever live up to a single benchmark ever set at any period in time since it's conception.

Avorysuds, I’m among those advocating the U.S. Congress pass one more increase of the federal minimum wage rate and thereafter non-partisan statisticians will determine the annual modifications necessary to retain the rate’s purchasing power. (That method of updating has been working well for retaining individual Social Security retiree payments’ purchasing powers).

Congress could consider your suggested $40/Hr, but I suspect that would be too much to start with.
You consider the minimum wage as a failure because it hasn’t “fixed poverty”? I appreciate the concept of retaining the purchasing power of a federal minimum wage rate because although it doesn’t eliminate poverty, it does reduce it to be less than otherwise at no net expense to the federal budget and as a net economic benefit.

Is it only raising the minimum wage or is it the minimum wage itself that you consider as “nothing more than vote buying”?

I sympathize with your difficulty of opposing concepts that consistently enjoy voters’ support. You’re among those that are attempting to reverse the populist policy directions that the FDR new deal began almost an entire century ago. Populist policies have continued to be increasingly adopted and expanded by almost all, (including the USA’s) major democratic republics.

Refer to:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/232006-consequences-of-repealing-minimum-wage-rates.html

Respectfully, Supposn

The minimum wage makes it more difficult for the unskilled worker to get and keep employment. I understand that you think you are some kind of expert in this area, since you reference your own opinion in another thread but as a former business owner, on any minimum wage job, I never took a chance with an inexperienced person. The reason, it wasn't advantageous. Also, when minimum wages goes up, I'd freeze my other employees wages, to keep my labor cost down, it is that or raise prices, either would lower the purchasing power of my employees.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Congress could consider your suggested $40/Hr, but I suspect that would be too much to start with.

its the middle class we hear so much about today- right?? If there really is a libturd free lunch why not help everyone. Make the minimum wage $40 and everyone else gets the same % above the minimum wage they were getting.

Or, easier still, just pass a law the all prices get cut in half tomorrow. Then everyone can buy twice as much tomorrow and no more poverty ever again!! There really is a libturd free lunch!





You consider the minimum wage as a failure because it hasn’t “fixed poverty”? I appreciate the concept of retaining the purchasing power of a federal minimum wage rate because although it doesn’t eliminate poverty, it does reduce it to be less than otherwise at no net expense to the federal budget and as a net economic benefit.

Is it only raising the minimum wage or is it the minimum wage itself that you consider as “nothing more than vote buying”?

I sympathize with your difficulty of opposing concepts that consistently enjoy voters’ support. You’re among those that are attempting to reverse the populist policy directions that the FDR new deal began almost an entire century ago. Populist policies have continued to be increasingly adopted and expanded by almost all, (including the USA’s) major democratic republics.

Refer to:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/232006-consequences-of-repealing-minimum-wage-rates.html

Respectfully, Supposn[/QUOTE]

 

[Rshermr]

I get so tired of stupid people posting chit all over the boards. Talk of raising the min wage is nothing more than vote buying, just like deductions and welfare. If raising min wage was the answer, why not make it 40 buck an hour? Because you would have a collapse in the economy.... If min wage fixed poverty, why are there so many mother fuckers living in poverty?

More or less, the retarded idea of a min wage has absolutely failed. So by all means, keep doing more of something that fails to ever live up to a single benchmark ever set at any period in time since it's conception.

Avorysuds, I’m among those advocating the U.S. Congress pass one more increase of the federal minimum wage rate and thereafter non-partisan statisticians will determine the annual modifications necessary to retain the rate’s purchasing power. (That method of updating has been working well for retaining individual Social Security retiree payments’ purchasing powers).

Congress could consider your suggested $40/Hr, but I suspect that would be too much to start with.
You consider the minimum wage as a failure because it hasn’t “fixed poverty”? I appreciate the concept of retaining the purchasing power of a federal minimum wage rate because although it doesn’t eliminate poverty, it does reduce it to be less than otherwise at no net expense to the federal budget and as a net economic benefit.

Is it only raising the minimum wage or is it the minimum wage itself that you consider as “nothing more than vote buying”?

I sympathize with your difficulty of opposing concepts that consistently enjoy voters’ support. You’re among those that are attempting to reverse the populist policy directions that the FDR new deal began almost an entire century ago. Populist policies have continued to be increasingly adopted and expanded by almost all, (including the USA’s) major democratic republics.

Refer to:
http://www.usmessageboard.com/economy/232006-consequences-of-repealing-minimum-wage-rates.html

Respectfully, Supposn

The minimum wage makes it more difficult for the unskilled worker to get and keep employment. I understand that you think you are some kind of expert in this area, since you reference your own opinion in another thread but as a former business owner, on any minimum wage job, I never took a chance with an inexperienced person. The reason, it wasn't advantageous. Also, when minimum wages goes up, I'd freeze my other employees wages, to keep my labor cost down, it is that or raise prices, either would lower the purchasing power of my employees.

So, that should show up to those studying the subject. But it does not. Most, in the list below, see a slight increase in unemployment, or no change. Few see a negative impact on unemployment:

http://www.irle.berkeley.edu/events/spring07/pedace/pedace.pdf

[url=http://www.americanprogressaction.org/issues/labor/news/2012/06/20/11749/the-facts-on-raising-the-minimum-wage-when-

So, making any kind of statement about whether the UE will be negatively or positively affected are probably difficult. At least, based on studies done by impartial sources. If you look hare enough, you can find major negative impacts. But not many. If you look hard enough, you can find major positive impacts. But not many.

This is largely a partial argument. Conservatives say that minimum wage laws are a bad idea, much less raising the minimum wage rates. Progressives say minimum wage laws are a good idea, and that raising the minimum wage is often a good idea. At least within limits.

What is certain is that raising the minimum wage rate helps families. Under the current Federal minimum wage, a minimum wage worker working full time, 40 hours per week, would make less than the poverty rate. So, there is the primary issue in my my mind. Is the worker, working full time, valuable enough to make a wage getting him beyond poverty??