The global warming thread. Is it for real?

I have never sent anyone to a blog to learn science, nor have I ever offered blog postings as support of science understandings. I do not consider blogs to be reliable sources of information. Not that everything on a blog is false, but in general they are unreliable, and bloggers are unaccountable for their mistakes, errors and misstatements.

CA has done afine job of pointing out mistakes and weaknesses that should have been caught in peer review. Anyone who has not learned more about science by reading CA has an issue with comprehension.

Even experimental failures yield valuable scientific data, I've stated the issues I have with Blog science. It isn't that everything said is in error, it is that all of the information is unreliable.

climate science is a rather incestuous and inbred bunch. they seldom publically criticize each other because that would 'dilute the message'. not only that but pal review lets through many mistakes that should be caught before publication.

you say there is no accountability on blogs for mistakes but I have seen, over and over again, how blogs like Climate Audit will become interested in a new paper and start to point out errors. the original complaints are typically supplanted by more and more sophisticated criticisms as more opinions are heard and incorporated.

most laymen have neither the time nor the expertise to critique scientific papers. watching those that do, in blogs, is not only interesting but informative as well. the authors of these papers are encouraged to explain their reasoning, which leads to a back-and-forth exchange that helps everybody.

how many random people would know that it is incorrect to just add instrumental data onto proxy data? how many of those would know the various reasons why it is wrong and deceiving? how many people know the various scientific definitions of 'significant'?

I think everybody should listen to as many sides of the issue as possible before making a tentative and maleable decision on what is likely to be the closest version to the truth. while most of us need to use expert authority to explain and refine different positions, that does not mean that we should choose one and then never listen to anyone else ever again.
 
Ian C -

I think everybody should listen to as many sides of the issue as possible before making a tentative and maleable decision on what is likely to be the closest version to the truth. while most of us need to use expert authority to explain and refine different positions, that does not mean that we should choose one and then never listen to anyone else ever again.

I couldn't agree more.

And I do think that most posters, like most people in society, will happily adjust their views as scientific progresses.

Those that won't have ego invested, and have chosen what they believe based on politics.
 
Well , I didn't really want to delve into the actual causes of global warming, just wanted to discuss if warming was actually occurring.

I think the evidence so far points towards warming ( anthropogenic or not ).
Else , could someone point out for the cause of massive glacier melting around the globe ?

Retreat of glaciers since 1850 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps some of the warming deniers might be able to explain the phenomena through global cooling ... somehow ?
 
Well , I didn't really want to delve into the actual causes of global warming, just wanted to discuss if warming was actually occurring.

I think the evidence so far points towards warming ( anthropogenic or not ).
Else , could someone point out for the cause of massive glacier melting around the globe ?

Retreat of glaciers since 1850 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps some of the warming deniers might be able to explain the phenomena through global cooling ... somehow ?
Been warming for the last several centuries.

And Thank God, or I'd be under a mile or so of glacier right now!
 
Well then again , thanks for everyone's contribution here , but what I would like to settle first is if

A) Global warming is occurring
B) Warming is a thrend that will continue until the next century.

There's really not much point arguing regarding the causes if we can't first have an agreement on these two basic questions.








Yes, global warming was initiated 14,000 years ago by causes unknown. It has continued with periods of alternating warm and cold (but with a general uptrend) since that time. There have been periods in the recent past when the global temperatures have been far warmer than today, the Holocene Thermal Max was at least 8 degrees C warmer than today and the MWP, the most recent warming, was at least 2 degrees C warmer than the present day.

When one looks at the historical data sets one see's that the global climate is on a cycle of warming and cooling that will last between 200 and 500 years. We are most likely now entering into a cooling period based on solar activity. Some scientists predict it will last from 200 to 250 years.
 
Sory , but Malthus was not wrong ... you can clearly see what happens when you outgrow your resources is a civilizational collapse. It happened in Easter Island, it happend to the Vikings in Greenland and it happened to the Mayans.
Right...Maulthus wasn't wrong.

What date was it that the world population outstripped its ability to feed itself again?...I forget.

If there was perfect commerce between all nations on the world we could talk about outgrowing global resouces.

Even with trade agreements this is not the case. Even more the examples I quoted are notable by the fact that three different civilisations outgrowed their "local" resources.

Perhaps there is something called alimentary poverty

2013 World Hunger and Poverty Facts and Statistics by World Hunger Education Service

What do you think is causing it ? Resource bonanza? Lazy people ? Duh

Now wer are not talking just about the ability to feed ourselfes but to obtain other natural resources : water , wood , energy.






40% of the food produced on this planet rots due to incompetence or fraud. Toss in corrupt politicians and that accounts for the rest. Paul Ehrlich famously stated back in the late '70's that the human population would begin dying off in huge quantities and surprise, surprise, that never happened.

This planet has been calculated to have a carrying capacity of around 40 billion. We are at less than a quarter of that. Further with current population rates the population will level off at around 10 billion WITH NO ACTION BEING TAKEN.

Sometimes it really is best to just do nothing.
 
Well , I didn't really want to delve into the actual causes of global warming, just wanted to discuss if warming was actually occurring.

I think the evidence so far points towards warming ( anthropogenic or not ).
Else , could someone point out for the cause of massive glacier melting around the globe ?

Retreat of glaciers since 1850 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps some of the warming deniers might be able to explain the phenomena through global cooling ... somehow ?

That's fine if you don't care about the source. At least you don't have a political agenda to sell "sustainable energy" or "population control".. Or if you do -- it doesn't drive your analysis of the warming part of the problem..

Seems like about 85% or more of the folks called "warming skeptics" ACCEPT that the world is doing exactly what WestWall says..

The rise of man OWES IT"S EXISTENCE to this fact. Our feud is simply over leaping to a very politically convienient theory that CO2 emissions from man is the principle cause of warming for the past 100 years or so.

So if you're happy now that we ALL agree it IS INDEED a warming climate, you should ask yourself if you wanna this trend or live in a climate where the glaciers are GROWING !!!
 
Right...Maulthus wasn't wrong.

What date was it that the world population outstripped its ability to feed itself again?...I forget.

If there was perfect commerce between all nations on the world we could talk about outgrowing global resouces.

Even with trade agreements this is not the case. Even more the examples I quoted are notable by the fact that three different civilisations outgrowed their "local" resources.

Perhaps there is something called alimentary poverty

2013 World Hunger and Poverty Facts and Statistics by World Hunger Education Service

What do you think is causing it ? Resource bonanza? Lazy people ? Duh

Now wer are not talking just about the ability to feed ourselfes but to obtain other natural resources : water , wood , energy.






40% of the food produced on this planet rots due to incompetence or fraud. Toss in corrupt politicians and that accounts for the rest. Paul Ehrlich famously stated back in the late '70's that the human population would begin dying off in huge quantities and surprise, surprise, that never happened.

This planet has been calculated to have a carrying capacity of around 40 billion. We are at less than a quarter of that. Further with current population rates the population will level off at around 10 billion WITH NO ACTION BEING TAKEN.

Sometimes it really is best to just do nothing.

OR --- we could just build 100 nuclear power plants and be perfectly safe from CO2 emissions.. (whattheheck -- it beats WHINING about CO2)..
 
Well , I didn't really want to delve into the actual causes of global warming, just wanted to discuss if warming was actually occurring.

I think the evidence so far points towards warming ( anthropogenic or not ).
Else , could someone point out for the cause of massive glacier melting around the globe ?

Retreat of glaciers since 1850 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps some of the warming deniers might be able to explain the phenomena through global cooling ... somehow ?

That's fine if you don't care about the source. At least you don't have a political agenda to sell "sustainable energy" or "population control".. Or if you do -- it doesn't drive your analysis of the warming part of the problem..

Seems like about 85% or more of the folks called "warming skeptics" ACCEPT that the world is doing exactly what WestWall says..

The rise of man OWES IT"S EXISTENCE to this fact. Our feud is simply over leaping to a very politically convienient theory that CO2 emissions from man is the principle cause of warming for the past 100 years or so.

So if you're happy now that we ALL agree it IS INDEED a warming climate, you should ask yourself if you wanna this trend or live in a climate where the glaciers are GROWING !!!

Easy there mate .
Let's keep separate concerns.
Green energy is desireable because it is ecosystem friendly . Period.
I am not sure if we could controll the weather or if it is desireable.
What I am certain is that if we are having warming and it is a continued trend ( again without considering the causes ) maybe we should just plan ahead to see how we can cope with the aforementioned warming ( but that , should be the topic of another thread, here I just wanted to set some common ground for future discussion).
 
Well , I didn't really want to delve into the actual causes of global warming, just wanted to discuss if warming was actually occurring.

I think the evidence so far points towards warming ( anthropogenic or not ).
Else , could someone point out for the cause of massive glacier melting around the globe ?

Retreat of glaciers since 1850 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps some of the warming deniers might be able to explain the phenomena through global cooling ... somehow ?

That's fine if you don't care about the source. At least you don't have a political agenda to sell "sustainable energy" or "population control".. Or if you do -- it doesn't drive your analysis of the warming part of the problem..

Seems like about 85% or more of the folks called "warming skeptics" ACCEPT that the world is doing exactly what WestWall says..

The rise of man OWES IT"S EXISTENCE to this fact. Our feud is simply over leaping to a very politically convienient theory that CO2 emissions from man is the principle cause of warming for the past 100 years or so.

So if you're happy now that we ALL agree it IS INDEED a warming climate, you should ask yourself if you wanna this trend or live in a climate where the glaciers are GROWING !!!

Easy there mate .
Let's keep separate concerns.
Green energy is desireable because it is ecosystem friendly . Period.
I am not sure if we could controll the weather or if it is desireable.
What I am certain is that if we are having warming and it is a continued trend ( again without considering the causes ) maybe we should just plan ahead to see how we can cope with the aforementioned warming ( but that , should be the topic of another thread, here I just wanted to set some common ground for future discussion).

We SHOULD plan ahead to mitigate damage. If we can project what degree of damage we expect. Barring setting us back 4 or 5 decades in civilized development, the AGWarmers have no metrics. Just hysteria about 1000s of problems all attributed to a 1degC rise in temperature in your lifetime.

Part of that "ulterior motive" is to misrepresent and push a list of "alternative energy" sources. A list that has virtually NO source of 24/7/365 power without SEVERE environmental impacts. Geothermal for instance is a DIRTY MINING OPERATION. And as our English enviro-nuts figured out too late -- biomass is burning garbage and trees for power.

You really didn't answer my question of what problem set you'd rather be facing and fixing..

Shrinking glaciers or Growing glaciers.

BTW: CultureCitizen, Are you related to CultureClub??
 
Last edited:
Flac -

Do any non-renewable forms of energy production have severe envionrmental impacts?

How would you compare the potential environmetal impact of tidal with, say, coal or the use of fracking to extract natural gas?
 
CA has done afine job of pointing out mistakes and weaknesses that should have been caught in peer review. Anyone who has not learned more about science by reading CA has an issue with comprehension.

Even experimental failures yield valuable scientific data, I've stated the issues I have with Blog science. It isn't that everything said is in error, it is that all of the information is unreliable.

climate science is a rather incestuous and inbred bunch. they seldom publically criticize each other because that would 'dilute the message'. not only that but pal review lets through many mistakes that should be caught before publication...

Your assertion is inaccurate, and grossly exaggerated in its mischaracterizations and misrepresentations.
 
It's strange for me that Ian would describe the entire scientific community, comprising experts in physics, biology, geography, meteorology and chemistry as "inbred" but apparently does not consider the tiny gang of right-wing Climate Deniers opposing them, most of whom have no background in science, to be so.
 
"Lord" Monkton is the poster child for the anti-science denialists. Not a Lord, not a scientist, and, worst of all, not honest at all.
 
That's fine if you don't care about the source. At least you don't have a political agenda to sell "sustainable energy" or "population control".. Or if you do -- it doesn't drive your analysis of the warming part of the problem..

Seems like about 85% or more of the folks called "warming skeptics" ACCEPT that the world is doing exactly what WestWall says..

The rise of man OWES IT"S EXISTENCE to this fact. Our feud is simply over leaping to a very politically convienient theory that CO2 emissions from man is the principle cause of warming for the past 100 years or so.

So if you're happy now that we ALL agree it IS INDEED a warming climate, you should ask yourself if you wanna this trend or live in a climate where the glaciers are GROWING !!!

Easy there mate .
Let's keep separate concerns.
Green energy is desireable because it is ecosystem friendly . Period.
I am not sure if we could controll the weather or if it is desireable.
What I am certain is that if we are having warming and it is a continued trend ( again without considering the causes ) maybe we should just plan ahead to see how we can cope with the aforementioned warming ( but that , should be the topic of another thread, here I just wanted to set some common ground for future discussion).

We SHOULD plan ahead to mitigate damage. If we can project what degree of damage we expect. Barring setting us back 4 or 5 decades in civilized development, the AGWarmers have no metrics. Just hysteria about 1000s of problems all attributed to a 1degC rise in temperature in your lifetime.

Part of that "ulterior motive" is to misrepresent and push a list of "alternative energy" sources. A list that has virtually NO source of 24/7/365 power without SEVERE environmental impacts. Geothermal for instance is a DIRTY MINING OPERATION. And as our English enviro-nuts figured out too late -- biomass is burning garbage and trees for power.

You really didn't answer my question of what problem set you'd rather be facing and fixing..

Shrinking glaciers or Growing glaciers.

BTW: CultureCitizen, Are you related to CultureClub??

So, geothermal is a dirty mining operation. Care to back that up with links and sources?
 
You really didn't answer my question of what problem set you'd rather be facing and fixing..

Shrinking glaciers or Growing glaciers.

BTW: CultureCitizen, Are you related to CultureClub??


Not fixing , but planning : droughts , higher frequency and intensity of huricanes, zones with extreme heat ( central US had record temeratures last year, and I read an article which said the mississippi's water level reached a low record on january) . Shrinking glaciars are also a problem in some parts of the world because they provide fresh water .
That kind of problems that I think that need to be planned.

Culture Club .... no , no relation. I'm actually a fan of a scottish science fiction writter who wrote the culture series.
 
Flac -

Do any non-renewable forms of energy production have severe envionrmental impacts?

How would you compare the potential environmetal impact of tidal with, say, coal or the use of fracking to extract natural gas?

Tidal is an ocean floor Cuisinart blender.. I want to see Enviro impact report on the fish, dolphins, turtles, ect --- destroyed in tidal power systems.. We don't have that yet === do we?

Geothermal mining is on your list.. I'd rather have 4 oil or Nat Gas wells near my property than a Geothermal mine. It is FAR DIRTIER operation and not even TRULY "renewable".

Biomass conversion is "burning garbage".. Sold as burning tree by products, and brush, but it always morphs to burning literal garbage. See the outrage from British Greens after they were the useful tools to get a network of "nice clean green Biomass Plants" in their neighborhoods.. They wised up too late.. And so will you...

Want me to go on? Or is your mind still closed???
 
Easy there mate .
Let's keep separate concerns.
Green energy is desireable because it is ecosystem friendly . Period.
I am not sure if we could controll the weather or if it is desireable.
What I am certain is that if we are having warming and it is a continued trend ( again without considering the causes ) maybe we should just plan ahead to see how we can cope with the aforementioned warming ( but that , should be the topic of another thread, here I just wanted to set some common ground for future discussion).

We SHOULD plan ahead to mitigate damage. If we can project what degree of damage we expect. Barring setting us back 4 or 5 decades in civilized development, the AGWarmers have no metrics. Just hysteria about 1000s of problems all attributed to a 1degC rise in temperature in your lifetime.

Part of that "ulterior motive" is to misrepresent and push a list of "alternative energy" sources. A list that has virtually NO source of 24/7/365 power without SEVERE environmental impacts. Geothermal for instance is a DIRTY MINING OPERATION. And as our English enviro-nuts figured out too late -- biomass is burning garbage and trees for power.

You really didn't answer my question of what problem set you'd rather be facing and fixing..

Shrinking glaciers or Growing glaciers.

BTW: CultureCitizen, Are you related to CultureClub??

So, geothermal is a dirty mining operation. Care to back that up with links and sources?

Make Ya a deal OldiRocks. We've done this exact same issue about FOUR FUKIN TIMES now.. You are too senile to remember I suppose.. I post backup from 4 of your favorite sources and you run away..

The deal is that if ANYONE ELSE hasn't seen this stuff --- I'll be glad to pull the threads..
Or you can search Geothermal Mining and find the discussions right here on USMB.
 
Flac -

Do any non-renewable forms of energy production have severe envionrmental impacts?

How would you compare the potential environmetal impact of tidal with, say, coal or the use of fracking to extract natural gas?

Tidal is an ocean floor Cuisinart blender.. I want to see Enviro impact report on the fish, dolphins, turtles, ect --- destroyed in tidal power systems.. We don't have that yet === do we?

Geothermal mining is on your list.. I'd rather have 4 oil or Nat Gas wells near my property than a Geothermal mine. It is FAR DIRTIER operation and not even TRULY "renewable".

Biomass conversion is "burning garbage".. Sold as burning tree by products, and brush, but it always morphs to burning literal garbage. See the outrage from British Greens after they were the useful tools to get a network of "nice clean green Biomass Plants" in their neighborhoods.. They wised up too late.. And so will you...

Want me to go on? Or is your mind still closed???

Um....will you be answering the question at some point?

I'm not proposing biomass nor geo-thermal (except perhaps in places like Iceland, where it makes sense) myself. I consider both forms or energy largely unnecessary for the reasons you state.

On tidal energy the loss of wildlife is a major issue, but also one that can be dealt with. It all depends on the depth of water the turbines are placed at, and research is being done on this. It's more of a teething problem than a threat to the viability of tidal.
 

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