The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[rylah]

UAE Writer: The Arab Expulsion Of Jews
Was A Disastrous Mistake

Emirati writer Salam Hamid, founder and head of the Al-Mezmaah Studies and Research Center in Dubai, published an article titled "The Cost of the Expulsion of the Arab Jews" in the UAE daily Al-Ittihad, in which he lamented the expulsion of the Jews from the Arab countries following the establishment of Israel in 1948.

This expulsion, he said, was a grave mistake, since the Arab countries thereby "lost an elite population with significant wealth, property, influence, knowledge, and culture," which could have helped them, including against Israel, and lost the potential contribution of the Jews in many spheres, especially in the financial sphere.

The Arabs, he added, should have learned a lesson from the expulsion of the Jews of Spain in 1492, and from Hitler's expulsion of the Jews of Europe, which eventually harmed the countries that lost their Jews.

He stated further that antisemitism, which is deeply entrenched in Arab societies, stems from the books that teach Islamic heritage, studied in schools throughout the Arab world, and therefore called for an overhaul of the curricula in order to strengthen tolerance and banish extremism.

UAE Writer Criticizes Expulsion of Jews From Arab Countries: ‘We Failed to Learn the Lesson of History’

"This hatred will therefore continue to exist, so long as our heritage [text]books continue to incite hatred against the Jews."

jewishjournal.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

In May, in the wake of the latest Gaza war, 210 doctors signed a letter to The BMJ medical journal saying that Israel was the source of all evil.

It included this line:

The root cause of this cycle of violence is ultimately the Israeli military occupation and restrictions placed upon the Palestinian population.

This is repeated often, especially by J-Street, but also by scores of "pro-peace" groups and anti-Israel groups.

It is utter garbage, and everyone knows it - because the Arab desire to wipe out Israel pre-dates the "occupation".

I just found an article from 1929 in the Canadian Jewish Chronicle where the Arabs (no one called them Palestinians, of course - those were the Jews) declared, to Great Britain, their prerequisite for peace with Jews:

"That there can be no peace in Palestine as long as the Balfour Declaration stands" will be the representation of an Arab deputation to the parliamentary Commission of Inquiry, it was decided at the conference on October 27 called by the Arab Executive.

...The conference, attended by several hundred Moslem and Christian Arab leaders from all sections of the country as well as twenty-five representatives from Syria and a number from Tiansjordania, presented demands for the immediate abrogation of the temporary regulations existing at the Wailing Wall. Declaring that the temporary regulations have existed too long and disclaiming all responsibility for the consequences if their demands are not heeded, the Arab conference threatened to prevent the Jews from visiting the Wailing Wall altogether.

(full article online)

It isn't the "occupation" that precludes peace. It is Palestinian refusal to accept the reality of a Jewish state and Jewish human rights

Blogging about Israel and the Arab world since, oh, forever.

elderofziyon.blogspot.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

Soviet ambassador to the UN, Andrei Gromyko, said during his speech: “The Jewish people have been connected with Palestine throughout a long historical period.” This contravened the Arab viewpoint that the creation of Israel was unjust. The USSR was the first country to officially recognize Israel, two days after it declared independence on May 14, 1948.

Socialist guns for Zionists​

The U.S., which also supported the creation of Israel, officially banned weapon supplies to the Middle East. Unlike the Americans, however, Moscow sent arms to the Zionists, though unofficially and through other countries, such as Czechoslovakia. The USSR used German weapons captured at the end of the war.

Israeli infantry making a full assault on Egyptian forces in the Negev area of Israel during the War of Independence.
Getty Images
Israel got rifles, mortars and even several Messerschmitt fighter planes from Czechoslovakia, of course, with Soviet permission and consent. This wasn’t the only source of weapons for the Jewish state. Basically, they were getting arms from around the world any way possible, but the USSR definitely played a major role in Israel’s victory in 1948.

End of honeymoon​

Stalin’s support for the Israeli cause didn’t last long. As Julius Kosharovsky, a Russian-born Israeli historian, said in his book on the Zionist movement in the USSR, bilateral relations deteriorated soon after Golda Meir, Israel’s envoy to Russia, raised the issue of the emigration of Soviet Jews to Israel.

(full article online)

Why did the USSR help to create Israel, but then became its foe

Joseph Stalin strongly supported the creation of Israel in 1947 because he hoped the Jewish state would be a Soviet ally in the Middle East. But when...

www.rbth.com

 

[Sixties Fan]

(Continuing in the British tradition)

 

[P F Tinmore]

(Continuing in the British tradition)

IOW, we don't want them here so let's dump them on Palestine.

 

[Sixties Fan]

I am curious as to what people think about this which happened in September of 1948. Could any other way to stop the Internationalization of Jerusalem have been found, via talks, etc, between the Jewish groups and the British, and the Muslims ?

I do not condone the assassination of Count Bernadotte, as he did save over 30,000 Jews from the concentration camps.

But one thing is true, the British did not help in any way in the immigration of the Jewish people into the Mandate for Palestine, which was to re create their homeland on their ancestral homeland. On the contrary, once the Muslims started with their terrorism against the Jews and the British, the Mandate capitulated and cut down the number of Jews allowed to immigrate from 1939 on, exactly the time when Jews needed to escape Europe and return to their homeland. Ships with Jewish immigrants kept being turned away, many being returned to Europe and the Jews ending up in concentration camps.

The reality is, that the Mandate for Palestine is the only one of the Four Mandates, to give land to a people who had no history on that land, 78% of it went to the Hashemites in 1922. The rest of the Mandate, the British seemed to eye it for themselves, instead of the Jewish people it had been promised to after the Balfour Declaration.

Below is what Jewish history tells about the incident:

During the fight for Jewish statehood, extremist military groups sometimes resorted to the use of terrorist tactics. One such instance occurred in 1948 when members of the Jewish undergroundorganization LEHI killed UN Peace Mediator Count Folke Bernadotte to protest his diplomatic efforts to modify the Palestine partition plan.

The Partition Plan Table of Contents

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

Bernadotte, a Swede with family ties to the Swedish King, gained international recognition through his work as head of the Swedish Red Cross during World War II. Bernadotte used his position to negotiate with Heinrich Himmler and save thousands of Jews from concentration camps, although many argue that he could have done more had he been less cautious in negotiations.

On June 11, Bernadotte succeeded in arranging a 30-day cease-fire. After visiting Cairo, Beirut, Amman and Tel Aviv, he came to the conclusion that the UN partition plan was an “unfortunate” resolution and proposed his own plan to unite the two feuding peoples. Instead of establishing individual states, he suggested that Arabs and Jews form a “union” consisting of a small Jewish entity and an enlarged Transjordan. Haifa and Lydda (Lod) airport would become free zones. Israel would receive the Western Galilee and unlimited immigration for two years, after which the UN would take control of the issue. Between 250,000 and 300,000 Arab refugees would be permitted to return to Arab territory with compensation and Transjordan would control the Negev and, despite Israeli claims, Jerusalem.

The Arab world rejected the Bernadotte plan on the grounds that, as Syrian officer Muhammad Nimr al-Khatib said, “Most of these mediators are spies for the Jews anyway.” The Israeli government, hating the idea of giving up Jerusalem and bent on military victory, quickly followed suit. Fighting resumed on July 8 and the Israeli army gained strength and succeeded in pushing back the Arabs until a second UN cease-fire was declared on July 18, this time with no time limit and a threat of economic sanctions against any country that broke it.

One organization that saw Bernadotte’s efforts as a threat was LEHI, a Jewish underground group that, under the leadership of Yitzhak Shamir, Dr. Israel Scheib and Nathan Friedman-Yellin, had waged a campaign of “personal terror” to force the British out of Palestine. LEHI called Bernadotte a British agent who had cooperated with the Nazis in World War II. The organization considered his plan to be a threat to its goal of Israeli independence on both banks of the Jordan River.

The Assassination of Count Bernadotte

Encyclopedia of Jewish and Israeli history, politics and culture, with biographies, statistics, articles and documents on topics from anti-Semitism to Zionism.

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org

 

[Sixties Fan]

The Exodus 1947: How It became Israel’s first Ship of State

74 years ago, on July 11th, loaded with Holocaust survivors, the Exodus 1947 left France for the Holy Land- But the British attacked. Op-ed.

www.israelnationalnews.com

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate​

SUBTOPIC: Post War ExoDus
⁜→ Sixties Fan, et al,

BLUF: As much as I Appreciate the British People, no people (most of all Americans) are with their flaws.

The Exodus 1947: How It became Israel’s first Ship of State

74 years ago, on July 11th, loaded with Holocaust survivors, the Exodus 1947 left France for the Holy Land- But the British attacked. Op-ed.

www.israelnationalnews.com

(COMMENT)

When I served at SHAPE in the mid-1980's - I took notice of the open racist attitudes. I remember a particular time when they made a remark about my supervisors (CW4) who happened to be "black." Something to the effect that they would never have (slur) over white soldiers. I soon found myself defending the respect that must be shown to American Black Officers. And they have readily shown their disdain for Jewish people. When I went to Baghdad during the conflict, it had diminished considerably, but the Australian's still has demonstrated a deep need for growth in that area.

The reason for the Balfour Declaration (1917) and the decisions made during the San Remo Convention (1920) adopted by the other Allied Powers, in favour of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people. They were remarkably futuristic in their political thinking and saw the need for a time when the Jewish National Home would become an imperative.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Sixties Fan]

 

[teddyearp]

Here it is in a nutshell. The British conquered that piece of land from the Ottoman empire in WWI. You know what conquered means, right? During the war, Britain made promises of an independent country to both the Jews and the Arabs. After all the details were ironed out, the British kept their promise to the Arabs by splitting off Jordan from the Mandate. The Arabs wanted more. They wanted it all.

And here we are today.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Here it is in a nutshell. The British conquered that piece of land from the Ottoman empire in WWI. You know what conquered means, right? During the war, Britain made promises of an independent country to both the Jews and the Arabs. After all the details were ironed out, the British kept their promise to the Arabs by splitting off Jordan from the Mandate. The Arabs wanted more. They wanted it all.

And here we are today.

The Palestinians wanted all of Palestine?
Oh my!!!

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate​

SUBTOPIC: Post War ExoDus
⁜→. P f Tinmore, teddyearp, et al,

BLUF: You are NOT comprehending what "teddyearp" is saying...

teddyearp said:
Here it is in a nutshell. The British conquered that piece of land from the Ottoman empire in WWI. You know what conquered means, right? During the war, Britain made promises of an independent country to both the Jews and the Arabs. After all the details were ironed out, the British kept their promise to the Arabs by splitting off Jordan from the Mandate. The Arabs wanted more. They wanted it all.

And here we are today.

₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪​

The Palestinians wanted all of Palestine?
Oh my!!!

(COMMENT)

This communicative tone of voice projecting you are that "whom" → the one who claims to know everything on the subject should not confuse the tenant (habitual residence) with the owner (the power that exercises sovereign control and is ultimately the self-governing authority). The Arab Palestinians DID NOT have a pre-existing valid claim to the territory. They base the intial point of contention on the "name" alone. The Arab Palestinians had no pre-existing claim of self-governing institutions necessary to exersize a true government.

There is a possibility for the argument that the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO), as a singlular entity, has more of a claim to the name "Palestine" than any other Arab organization. It was the PLO who were designated the sole representative of the Palestinian People (1974). It was the PLO that that declared independent (1988), , it was the PLO that signed the the Oslo Accords, AND it was the PLO the UN tied to the name "Palestine" (1998).

Sit back and take a deep breath. Take stock of what you are saying. Then ask yourself again, who are the Palestinians. And give an honest answer.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

Sit back and take a deep breath. Take stock of what you are saying. Then ask yourself again, who are the Palestinians. And give an honest answer.

The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

“Turkish subjects habitually resident in the territory of Palestine upon the 1st day of August, 1925, shall become Palestinian citizens.”

 

[Sixties Fan]

His straightforward testimony shows how poorly Jews were treated by their Arab and Muslim neighbors.

Here he describes the situation of Jews in Palestine, whom he visited in 1847. He notes that their plight was in some ways the worst that he had seen among Jews anywhere. (Bolded highlights are mine, italics are his.)

The State of the Jews in Palestine

Deep misery and continual oppression are the right words to describe the condition of the Children of Israel in the land of their fathers. — 1 comprise a short and faithful picture of their actual state under the following heads.

1) They are entirely destitute of every legal protection and every means of safety. Instead of the security afforded the law, which is unknown in these countries, they are solely under the orders of the sheiks and pachas, men, whose character and feelings inspire but little confidence from the beginning, It is only the European Consuls who frequently take care of the oppressed, and give them some protection.

2) With unheard of rapacity, tax upon tax is levied on them. With the exception of Jerusalem, every where the taxes demanded are arbitrary. Whole communities have been impoverished by the exorbitant claims of the sheiks, who, under the moat trifling pretenses, without any control, oppress the Jews with fresh burdens. It is impossible to enumerate all these oppressions.

3) In the strict sense of the word they are not even masters of their own property. They do not even venture to complain when they are robbed and plundered; for. the vengeance of the Arabs would follow each complaint.

4) Their lives are taken into as little consideration as their property; they are exposed to the caprice of any one; for even the smallest pretext, even a harmless discussion, a word dropped in conversation; is enough to cause bloody reprisals. Violence of every kind is of daily occurrence, When; for instance in the contests of Mahomet Ali with the Sublime Porte, the City of Hebron was besieged by Egyptian troops and taken by storm, the Jews where murdered and plundered, and the survivors scarcely even allowed to retain a few rags to cover them. No pen can describe the despair of these unfortunates. The women were treated with brutal cruelty; and even to this day, many are found who from that time became miserable cripples. With truth can the Lamentations of Jeremiah be employed here. Since that great misfortune up to the present day, the Jews of Hebron languish in the deepest misery, and the present Sheik is unwearied in his endeavours, not to better their condition, but on the contrary to make it worse.

5) The chief evidence of their miserable condition is the universal poverty which we remarked in Palestine, and which is here truly characteristic; for nowhere else in our long journeys, in Europe, Asia and Africa did we observe it among the Jews. It even causes leprosy among the Jews of Palestine, as in former times. Robbed of their means of subsistence from the cultivation of the soil and trade, they only exist upon the charity of their brethren in the faith in foreign parts.

... In a word the state of the Jews in Palestine, body as well as mind, is an unbearable one; and yet there the land yields most abundantly. If the possession of it were not to completely in the hands of the Arabs, — if one could only secure for the Jews some little portion of it and give them the means for its cultivation - sufficient sources of industry would be open to them; wherewith to obtain a livelihood. But what does it benefit them to cultivate the ground, if the Arabs rob them of the harvest?

(full article online)

A eyewitness to Arab antisemitism in Palestine, 1847

Blogging about Israel and the Arab world since, oh, forever.

elderofziyon.blogspot.com

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate​

SUBTOPIC: Post War ExoDus
⁜→. P f Tinmore, teddyearp, et al,

BLUF: Who are you trying to kid here. I just gave you that link and discussed this in Posting #20,121 in the "Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2" thread.

The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

(COMMENT)

If you go to Posting #20,121 You'll see that I discussed this with the link to the Citizenship Order. And the 1925 Citizenship Order was modified a couple of times, I think the last time in the early 1930s.

Your comment is not 100% correct, but the nuances to the 1925 Citizenship Order (as amended) are NOT an ipso facto (by itself) applicable • because of because decisions have to be made.

The 1925 Citizenship Order is only applicable to those that are still living and were qualified under Article 1. As discussed perviously, since the creation of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR), the perceived inequities and limitations of that British 1925 Order have been largely corrected. And the CCPR is what is applicable in most cases.

I don't think it is necessary to comment on your misinterpretations in both threads. You cannot use either the 1925 Citizenship Order or Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne (the Order implementing the Treaty Article) as evidence for the establishment of a Palestinian State. The Government of Palestine (alla 1920 under UK Civil Administration) and the State of Palestine (either the 1988 or the 2012 versions) are not the same things. One disappears on the termination of the Mandate, and the others were recognized after the Mandate.

But the differences are not under the discussion here.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hollie]

The automatic, ipso facto, change from Ottoman to Palestinian nationality was dealt with in Article 1, paragraph 1, of the Citizenship Order, which declared:

You cut and paste that single sentence continuously across multiple threads knowing it is a misrepresentation.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate​

SUBTOPIC: Post War ExoDus
⁜→. P f Tinmore, teddyearp, et al,

BLUF: Who are you trying to kid here. I just gave you that link and discussed this in Posting #20,121 in the "Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2" thread.


(COMMENT)

If you go to Posting #20,121 You'll see that I discussed this with the link to the Citizenship Order. And the 1925 Citizenship Order was modified a couple of times, I think the last time in the early 1930s.

Your comment is not 100% correct, but the nuances to the 1925 Citizenship Order (as amended) are NOT an ipso facto (by itself) applicable • because of because decisions have to be made.

The 1925 Citizenship Order is only applicable to those that are still living and were qualified under Article 1. As discussed perviously, since the creation of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR), the perceived inequities and limitations of that British 1925 Order have been largely corrected. And the CCPR is what is applicable in most cases.

I don't think it is necessary to comment on your misinterpretations in both threads. You cannot use either the 1925 Citizenship Order or Article 30 of the Treaty of Lausanne (the Order implementing the Treaty Article) as evidence for the establishment of a Palestinian State. The Government of Palestine (alla 1920 under UK Civil Administration) and the State of Palestine (either the 1988 or the 2012 versions) are not the same things. One disappears on the termination of the Mandate, and the others were recognized after the Mandate.

But the differences are not under the discussion here.

Most Respectfully,
R

The Citizenship order states that there is a Palestine, and that Palestine has territory, and that Palestine has citizens.

What do you have that says different?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: The NEWER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate​

SUBTOPIC: Post War ExoDus
⁜→. P f Tinmore, teddyearp, et al,

BLUF: And once again, you are desperately trying to conjure a "state" where there was none.

The Citizenship order states that there is a Palestine, and that Palestine has territory, and that Palestine has citizens.

What do you have that says different?

(COMMENT)

◈ Palestine was the abbreviated form for The Civil Administration and Government of Palestine. "The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine." See the Palestine Order in Council. (1922)​

​

◈ Statement of Policy in Palestine • Secretary of State for the Colonies to Parliament by Command of His Majesty January 1938​

6. The terms of reference of the technical Commission will be as follows:-​

(a) afford a reasonable prospect of the eventual establishment, with adequate security, of self-supporting Arab and Jewish States ​

◈ Palestine is today a legal entity but it is not a sovereign state. Memorandum "A" - Legal Meaning of the "Termination fo the Mandate" (25 February 1948).​

​

◈ "Palestine was not identified as a State or country nor could its authorities be identified as a government." Memorandum from the Under-Secretary-General for Legal Affairs (December 2012).​

In 1945, when the UN Charter was adopted, the oversight for the territories now held under mandate (League of Nations) was formally applied to the International Trusteeship System pursuant to Chapter XII - Article 77a UN Charter.

Most Respectfully,
R

Excerpt Attachment:

Report by His Majesty's Government in the United
Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
to the Council of the League of Nations on the
Administration of Palestine and Trans-Jordan
for the year 1932


PALESTINE.

INTRODUCTORY.
Position, etc.​

Palestine lies on the western edge of the continent of Asia between latitude 30° N. and 33° N., Longitude 34° 30 E. and 35° 30' E.

On the south it is bounded by Egyptian and Saudi Arabian territory, on the east by Trans-Jordan, on the north by the French Mandated Territories of Syria and the Lebanon, and on the west by the Mediterranean.

The boundaries are described as follows:--

• South.--From a point west of Rafa on the Mediterranean to a point two miles west of Aqaba in the Gulf of Aqaba.
  
  East.--From a point two miles west of Aqaba in the Gulf of Aqaba up the centre of the Wadi Araba, the Dead Sea, and the River Jordan, to the junction of the latter with the River Yarmuk, thence up the centre of the River Yarmuk to the Syrian frontier.
  
  North.--The northern boundary was laid down by the Anglo-French Convention of the 23rd December, 1920, and its delimitation was ratified in 1923. Stated briefly, the boundary runs from Ras el Naqura on the Mediterranean eastwards to Metulla and across the upper Jordan valley to Banias, thence to Jisr Banat Yaqub, thence along the Jordan to the Lake of Tiberias on to El Hamme station on the Samakh-Deraa railway line.
  
  West.--The Mediterranean Sea.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Here is a list of boycott actions of Arabs against Jews - not Zionists, but Jews - between 1891 and 1945.

1891: Arabs request the Ottoman Empire not sell land to Jews.

January 1915: The American Jewish Yearbookreports "At Hebron, Jewish storekeepers are boycotted
by Mohammedan women."

April 2, 1920, AJC: "Rosh Pinah: Thirty Arabs attack Arab workmen in fields belonging to Jewish inhabitants in endeavor to bring about boycott by Arabs against Jews."

June 4, 1921: "Haifa: Arabs issue proclamation urging the populace to boycott the Jews and drive them out of their villages."

1922: Arab Congress calls on Arabs to boycott Jewish businesses in Palestine.

1924:
MUSLIM-CHRISTIAN ASSOCIATION.—AS in the past, the Muslim-Christian Association again expressed its opposition to the Mandate and to the very idea of the creation of a Jewish national home in Palestine, and voiced its demands for the independence of Palestine. It conducted an anti-Zionist and also anti-Jewish propaganda. In a publication which it widely distributed in the past year, the Association repeatedly refers its sympathizers to the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", as a book which should be read by every-one who still doubts the pernicious motives of the Jews. ...It voted to authorize the Executive Committee to boycott the forthcoming elections and to promulgate an economic boycott against the Jews. The economic boycott, however, was later abandoned.

1925:
ARAB ASSOCIATIONS.—The Moslem-Christian Union during the past year continued its policy of obstruction—not only in political matters but it also tried to interfere with the economic development of the country. Early in the year under review, a congress adopted a resolution urging the boycotting of the Ruttenberg Electrification Plan.


1929: Arab Congress vows to compel Arabs to boycott Jewish merchandise. Syria prohibits import of merchandise produced by Jewish businesses in Palestine.

1931: World Islamic Congress passes resolution requesting Muslim countries to boycott trade with Jewish businesses in Palestine. Arab Labor Federation pickets Jewish businesses in Palestine.

1945: Arab League Council adopts Resolution 70, recommending that all Arab states establish national boycott offices.





(full article online)

A brief history of Arab boycotts of Jews. (Not Zionists - Jews.)

Blogging about Israel and the Arab world since, oh, forever.

elderofziyon.blogspot.com

 

[P F Tinmore]

◈ Statement of Policy in Palestine • Secretary of State for the Colonies to Parliament by Command of His Majesty January 1938

Indeed, the colonial project.