The Official Discussion Thread for who is considered indiginous to Palestine?

Who are the indiginous people(s) of the Palestine region?


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PALESTINE ARAB CONGRESS

Now facts:

HAIFA, 1920
The third congress opened on 4 December. It was attended by 36 delegates, including Sheik Suleiman al-Taji Al-Faruqi and head of the Catholic community Bullus Shehadeh. The congress was opened by Haifa's mufti, Muhammad Murad. Recently deposed mayor of Jerusalem Musa al-Husayni was elected president and chairman of the nine-member executive committee, a post he held until his death in 1934. The congress called for Palestine to be ruled under identical terms as those of the Mandate of Iraq, with a parliament elected by a one-citizen-one-vote system. Other resolutions:

  • Called for Palestine to be part of the independent Arab state promised in the McMahon–Hussein Correspondence. Calls for unity with Syria were dropped, since the area was now under French control.
  • Condemned the notion of a homeland for the Jewish people.
  • Objected to the recognition of the Hebrew as an official language.
  • Opposed Jewish immigration.
  • Declared the British administration illegal, since the League of Nations had not yet reached a decision about the status of the territory.
Fifth_Palestinian_National_Congress.jpg

Some delegates, such as Daoud Isa, complained that the congress was not sufficiently radical. After the congress the executive committee met British High Commissioner Herbert Samuel, who insisted that they accept British policy on the Jewish national homeland to receive official recognition. The British claim that the congress was not representative led to a broad campaign by the Muslim-Christian Associations to raise public awareness.

Palestine Arab Congress | Project Gutenberg Self-Publishing - eBooks | Read eBooks online
After the congress the executive committee met British High Commissioner Herbert Samuel, who insisted that they accept British policy on the Jewish national homeland to receive official recognition.
RoccoR take note. The Palestinians had to buy into the settler colonial project to be recognized. You have always falsely portrayed the Palestinians on this.

Did You notice there's no notice of "Palestinians" even in the 3rd Arab congress?
It's very convenient to portray Arabian tribes as indigenous while neglecting Palestinian Jews who lived there longer.



It's the Palestine "Arab" Congress, not "Arabian". You confuse Arabic speaking people, who adopted the language of the Arabian rulers with Arabians. They are descended from people who were predominately Christians before the Arabian invasion, hence the participation of the remaining unconverted Christian Palestinians in the Palestine Congresses. Your old dog won't hunt.


As much as this is what You'd like to believe, the reality is that Arabian tribal culture is at the center of Arab street in Palestine exactly like in Yemen. With villages like Nabi Saleh where only the Tamimi tribe lives, and elections for tribal leaders independent from political parties.

Palestinian Arabs keep to their Arabian roots and traditions very openly, just not in English.


Having lived as a child and worked as an adult in Arab-speaking and Arabian countries I can confirm that you are full of crap. An Egyptian (or Palestinian) has almost nothing in common with a Saudi except for religion and language (only if they are educated and both speak formal Arabic). While I was stationed in Saudi Arabia as a young army officer (U.S. Army) we had many Palestinians working for us as third country nationals (TCNs) who handled much of the clerical work. They were very western compared to the Saudis. They wore western clothes (no thobes) and in private would agree with us that the Saudis were extremely strange and backward people. As a kid in Tunisia (my dad was military attache' there) the Tunisians were also far more western and generically mediteranean than any Arabian/Bedouin. In Palestine the Arabians are the Bedouins, who don't consider themselves Palestinians. In all places where the Arabians ruled, the local people would imitate the culture of the ruling Arabians, even claim some familial ties to the Arabians. That is true in all societies that were under foreign rule. The Romanians today claim to be descendants of the Romans that ruled Dacia for a time. In fact, though the language is a Latin derivative, Romanians have very little Roman ancestry. Your dog won't hunt.


Yaalla Lawrence of Arabia halas with this pretentious BS.
Tunisian indigenous tribes don't bear Arabian names like the tribes in Palestine.

Mind You, we're talking about Asia. not Africa..."shirts and stuff in the 20th century" :eusa_doh::lol:
 
Being Israeli means he knows nothing of these things, seeing things from only one point of view. Having lived in the Arabic-speaking world as a child and an adult as an American, I have a much better perspective.

The Palestinians Charter caters to and solicits solidarity from the Arabic speaking world. There similar instances of charters/constitutions e.g. pan-slavism (Yugoslavia), similar movements among Spanish-speaking nations, etc. It didn't mean the Croats and Serbs (who speak the same language) lacked individuality as was later found out.
What does "Slavenism" has to do with indigenous people of the Levant??:poke:

This is exactly the Western arrogant hypocrisy that I'm talking about, You want to squeeze people into Your own categories. They don't work.

Why? Because if You had any idea or respect for the indigenous people ANYWHERE, not only the Jews would've been helped to create a state but also Kurds, Druze and the bigger Arab confederations of tribes (to whom Arab tribes in Palestine also relate Abbas Tamimi, Shamar etc.) instead of squeezing them like a can of TUNA FISH into those idiotic borders ever created in history.

Tribes in Iraq:
iraq-tribes.jpg


400px-Map_of_Arabia_600_AD.svg.png




tribes.jpg
... look where the Tamimi tribe is indigenous to and holds lands for centuries before arriving in Palestine. And I didn't even start with their state in the Gulf.

And as always- I don't mean to disenfranchise Arab rights, they have a longstanding presence everywhere in the region. But Westerners don't understand pan-Arab imperialism, and see imaginary borders instead of natural ones, out of arrogance, on account of the many indigenous people in the region.
 
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Be that as it may, this photo of Ahed “Shirley Temper” Tamimiin court gives me some satisfaction – not just because she has been indicted for assault, but because if you had to pick the one person in the photo who looks the least Middle Eastern..



In case you are wondering, Shirley looks the way she does because she is likely a “Bushnak”, a descendant of Bosnian Muslims who emigrated to Palestine in the times of the Ottoman empire.

(full article online)

Wanna Play “Who’s Indigenous?”
FYI, of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of settlers. Not one was a native Jew.


Daniel Oster - signed the Declaration, 1st Knesset and mayor of Jerusalem, husband of Julia Meni native of Hebron.
Rabbi Yaakov Meir -native Jerusalemite, was the 1st Rishon LeZion, and head of Chief Rabbinate of future State of Israel. Husband to Rachel of the Itzhaki family.
Ben Zion Meir Chai Uziel - native Jerusalemite, 1st Rishon LeZion and Chief rabbi of the State of Israel.
Israel Rokah - mayor of Tel-Aviv and 1st Knesset, at the time he was the 10th generation of a family that lived in Jerusalem and owned lands in Jaffa.
Yosef Sapir - 1st Knesset., native of Jerusalem of a peasant family which owned lands, his wife is daughter of Rabbi S.Z. Cohen Shapira.
Tawfik Toubi - 1st Knesset .
Seif el-Din el-Zoubi - 1st Knesset.
Amin-Salim Jarjora - 1st Knesset
Eliyahu Elyashar - native Jerusalemite descendant of Rabbi Yaakov Shaul Elyashar, 1st Knesset.


Q. I hear this narrative all the time, however I don't see Americans having any objection to having a foreign immigrant govt. Did You guys question only Obama or anyone else of all the others if they were cough..cough... "native"...US presidents?
 
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Be that as it may, this photo of Ahed “Shirley Temper” Tamimiin court gives me some satisfaction – not just because she has been indicted for assault, but because if you had to pick the one person in the photo who looks the least Middle Eastern..



In case you are wondering, Shirley looks the way she does because she is likely a “Bushnak”, a descendant of Bosnian Muslims who emigrated to Palestine in the times of the Ottoman empire.

(full article online)

Wanna Play “Who’s Indigenous?”
FYI, of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of settlers. Not one was a native Jew.


Daniel Oster - signed the Declaration, 1st Knesset and mayor of Jerusalem, husband of Julia Meni native of Hebron.
Rabbi Yaakov Meir -native Jerusalemite, was the 1st Rishon LeZion, and head of Chief Rabbinate of future State of Israel. Husband to Rachel of the Itzhaki family.
Ben Zion Meir Chai Uziel - native Jerusalemite, 1st Rishon LeZion and Chief rabbi of the State of Israel.
Israel Rokah - mayor of Tel-Aviv and 1st Knesset, at the time he was the 10th generation of a family that lived in Jerusalem and owned lands in Jaffa.
Yosef Sapir - 1st Knesset., native of Jerusalem of a peasant family which owned lands, his wife is daughter of Rabbi S.Z. Cohen Shapira.
Tawfik Toubi - 1st Knesset .
Seif el-Din el-Zoubi - 1st Knesset.
Amin-Salim Jarjora - 1st Knesset
Eliyahu Elyashar - native Jerusalemite descendant of Rabbi Yaakov Shaul Elyashar, 1st Knesset.


Q. I hear this narrative all the time, however I don't see Americans having any objection to having a foreign immigrant govt. Did You guys question only Obama or anyone else of all the others if they were cough..cough... "native"...US presidents?
Category:Signatories of the Israeli Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia
 
Be that as it may, this photo of Ahed “Shirley Temper” Tamimiin court gives me some satisfaction – not just because she has been indicted for assault, but because if you had to pick the one person in the photo who looks the least Middle Eastern..



In case you are wondering, Shirley looks the way she does because she is likely a “Bushnak”, a descendant of Bosnian Muslims who emigrated to Palestine in the times of the Ottoman empire.

(full article online)

Wanna Play “Who’s Indigenous?”
FYI, of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of settlers. Not one was a native Jew.


Daniel Oster - signed the Declaration, 1st Knesset and mayor of Jerusalem, husband of Julia Meni native of Hebron.
Rabbi Yaakov Meir -native Jerusalemite, was the 1st Rishon LeZion, and head of Chief Rabbinate of future State of Israel. Husband to Rachel of the Itzhaki family.
Ben Zion Meir Chai Uziel - native Jerusalemite, 1st Rishon LeZion and Chief rabbi of the State of Israel.
Israel Rokah - mayor of Tel-Aviv and 1st Knesset, at the time he was the 10th generation of a family that lived in Jerusalem and owned lands in Jaffa.
Yosef Sapir - 1st Knesset., native of Jerusalem of a peasant family which owned lands, his wife is daughter of Rabbi S.Z. Cohen Shapira.
Tawfik Toubi - 1st Knesset .
Seif el-Din el-Zoubi - 1st Knesset.
Amin-Salim Jarjora - 1st Knesset
Eliyahu Elyashar - native Jerusalemite descendant of Rabbi Yaakov Shaul Elyashar, 1st Knesset.


Q. I hear this narrative all the time, however I don't see Americans having any objection to having a foreign immigrant govt. Did You guys question only Obama or anyone else of all the others if they were cough..cough... "native"...US presidents?
Category:Signatories of the Israeli Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia

Hard to fit that narrative huh... mind You I didn't even look beyond the 1st Knesset or the Moyal and Aboulafia families in the Knesset. Virtually all of those who opposed the govt were Ashkenazic immigrants.

Rabbi Yaakov Meir -native Jerusalemite, was the 1st Rishon LeZion, and head of Chief Rabbinate of future State of Israel. Husband to Rachel of the Itzhaki family.

800px-Rabbi_Yaakov_Meir.jpg
 
Be that as it may, this photo of Ahed “Shirley Temper” Tamimiin court gives me some satisfaction – not just because she has been indicted for assault, but because if you had to pick the one person in the photo who looks the least Middle Eastern..



In case you are wondering, Shirley looks the way she does because she is likely a “Bushnak”, a descendant of Bosnian Muslims who emigrated to Palestine in the times of the Ottoman empire.

(full article online)

Wanna Play “Who’s Indigenous?”
FYI, of the 37 people who signed Israel's declaration of independence, only one was born in Palestine and he was the son of settlers. Not one was a native Jew.


Daniel Oster - signed the Declaration, 1st Knesset and mayor of Jerusalem, husband of Julia Meni native of Hebron.
Rabbi Yaakov Meir -native Jerusalemite, was the 1st Rishon LeZion, and head of Chief Rabbinate of future State of Israel. Husband to Rachel of the Itzhaki family.
Ben Zion Meir Chai Uziel - native Jerusalemite, 1st Rishon LeZion and Chief rabbi of the State of Israel.
Israel Rokah - mayor of Tel-Aviv and 1st Knesset, at the time he was the 10th generation of a family that lived in Jerusalem and owned lands in Jaffa.
Yosef Sapir - 1st Knesset., native of Jerusalem of a peasant family which owned lands, his wife is daughter of Rabbi S.Z. Cohen Shapira.
Tawfik Toubi - 1st Knesset .
Seif el-Din el-Zoubi - 1st Knesset.
Amin-Salim Jarjora - 1st Knesset
Eliyahu Elyashar - native Jerusalemite descendant of Rabbi Yaakov Shaul Elyashar, 1st Knesset.


Q. I hear this narrative all the time, however I don't see Americans having any objection to having a foreign immigrant govt. Did You guys question only Obama or anyone else of all the others if they were cough..cough... "native"...US presidents?
Category:Signatories of the Israeli Declaration of Independence - Wikipedia

Seif el-Din el-Zoubi .....BTW it's the same infamous Zoubi family, in the Knesset today that on one side promotes Israel while on the organizes riots. Nevertheless good money:wink_2:
220px-Seif_el-Din_el-Zubi.jpg



El-Zoubi was born in 1913 in Nazareth, where he attended high school. During the British Mandate of Palestine, he was active in the Haganah, and later received the Fighter of the State Decoration. From 1959 to 1974 he was the mayor of Nazareth.

In 1949 he was elected to the Knesset as the leader of the Democratic List of Nazareth. He was re-elected in 1951 on the Democratic List for Israeli Arabs, and 1955, but resigned from the Knesset on 13 February 1956. In 1959 he became mayor of Nazareth, holding the post until 1965, when he returned to the Knesset on the Progress and Development list, which briefly merged into Cooperation and Development before regaining its independence. He was re-elected in 1969 elections, and in 1971 became mayor of Nazareth again, holding the post until 1974. After re-election in 1973, el-Zoubi was appointed Deputy Speaker of the Knesset.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q. Still can't find a native govt. in the US?
 
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Palestinian Jews - Eliyahu Elyashar
220px-Elisar_eliyahu.jpg



In 1938 he became a member of the Sephardi Community Committee in Jerusalem, and also served as a member of its presidium. In 1942 he was elected its president. In the same year he started publishing and editing the weekly newspaper Hed HaMizrah, which he continued to do until 1952.[2]

A member of the Jewish National Council, he was amongst the leadership of the Haganah in Jerusalem and served as a member of the Defence Committee of the Provisional State Council after Israeli independence.[2] In the first Knesset elections in 1949 he was placed second on the Sephardim and Oriental Communities list, and became a Knesset member when the party won four seats. He headed the party for the 1951 elections, in which it won two seats. Shortly after the elections the party merged into the General Zionists.

150px-Jacob_Saul_Elyashar.jpg


Rabbi Yaakov Shaul Elyashar (1 June 1817 – 21 July 1906), also known as Yisa Berakhah, was a 19th-century Sephardirabbi in Palestine. He became Sephardi Chief Rabbi of Palestine in 1893.

He was born in Safed to the Elyashar family, a prominent Sephardi rabbinical family which had been in Palestine for centuries. His father, rabbi Eliezer Yeruham Elyashar, was a shochet. In 1853 he was appointed dayan in Jerusalem and became head of the beth din in 1869. In 1893 he became the Rishon LeZion or Sephardi chief rabbi of Palestine. Rabbi Shmuel Salant was the chief rabbi of the Ashkenazi community at the time and they enjoyed very warm relations and collaborated on various issues affecting the entire Jewish settlement in Palestine.

Elyashar wrote thousands of responses to questions from Ashkenazim and Sephardim throughout the world, most of which were published in the Questions and Responsa "Maase Ish".[1]

The Jerusalem neighborhood of Givat Shaul is named after Elyashar.[2]

Some of his descendants have since changed the English spelling of the last name from Elyashar to Eliashar.
 
I just found an intriguing book called "Stirring Times: Or, Records from Jerusalem Consular Chronicles of 1853 to 1856" written by the British consul to Jerusalem at the time. While there are many travelogues from that time period, all of those are necessarily dependent on information from guides and others. This book, however, is really source material on how things were at that time.

The author, James Finn, devoted a chapter on the Jews of Jerusalem and other towns, and it is fascinating in its detail and uncovering facts that are little known today. This post will focus on what Finn has to say about Jewish/Muslim relations at the time.

It is hardly the harmonious pre-Zionist existence that Muslims will have you believe.

(full article online)

Jewish relations with Muslims in Palestine in the 1850s ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News
 
Well, I took a DNA test, since Ashkenaz Jews are often called "foreigners" to Israel. The results were VERY interesting, although it was a bit hard to wade thru the scientific jargon, and science is not my best subject. BTW, both my parents were Polish Jews. So, bottom line: Even though the test determined that I was 100% European, certain "markers" indicate that my ancestors came from the Middle East originally, most likely from an area around Syria. So there you have it: European Jews are not "Khazars" or Italians. My ancestors originally came from an area around Syria, as I knew all along, even without a DNA test. In fact, despite my white-as-a-ghost appearance, the test determined I was more closely related genetically to the Middle Easterners of today, rather than to the Europeans of today.
 
Well, I took a DNA test, since Ashkenaz Jews are often called "foreigners" to Israel. The results were VERY interesting, although it was a bit hard to wade thru the scientific jargon, and science is not my best subject. BTW, both my parents were Polish Jews. So, bottom line: Even though the test determined that I was 100% European, certain "markers" indicate that my ancestors came from the Middle East originally, most likely from an area around Syria. So there you have it: European Jews are not "Khazars" or Italians. My ancestors originally came from an area around Syria, as I knew all along, even without a DNA test. In fact, despite my white-as-a-ghost appearance, the test determined I was more closely related genetically to the Middle Easterners of today, rather than to the Europeans of today.

Now the question is, are native of the area?
 
Well, I took a DNA test, since Ashkenaz Jews are often called "foreigners" to Israel. The results were VERY interesting, although it was a bit hard to wade thru the scientific jargon, and science is not my best subject. BTW, both my parents were Polish Jews. So, bottom line: Even though the test determined that I was 100% European, certain "markers" indicate that my ancestors came from the Middle East originally, most likely from an area around Syria. So there you have it: European Jews are not "Khazars" or Italians. My ancestors originally came from an area around Syria, as I knew all along, even without a DNA test. In fact, despite my white-as-a-ghost appearance, the test determined I was more closely related genetically to the Middle Easterners of today, rather than to the Europeans of today.

Now the question is, are native of the area?
He is more a Native of the area than all the Arabs who came from Arabia originally.

Obsessing over who is "born" in any place is not good for one's health.

None of the Europeans or Asians who have been born in the Americas since the 1600s can claim to be the Natives of the Americans, even if the word native is sometimes used to denote someone who was born in a certain place.

The First Nations of any place in the Americas, Australia, etc continue to be the Indigenous people of those places, just as the Jewish Nation People are the indigenous people of the Ancient Land of Canaan, later known as Israel and Judea. And later the name changed to Syria Palestinia by the Romans in order to stop the Jewish revolts against them.

"Born in the USA" does not make one a Native or Indigenous of that area of the world. Not now, not ever.

Born in the region of Palestine, also does not make anyone a Native or Indigenous of that area.

The meaning of Native and Indigenous continues to be the same and continues to refer to a certain people/tribes/nations, from a certain time, who lived, or continued to live in an area of the world where they created the culture and language which remained in that area.

That is the case of the Jewish Tribes/People/Nation in ancient Canaan/Israel/Judea - Palestinian region, and now (part of it) known as Israel again.

The Indigenous People/Nation are sovereign of part of their ancient homeland, again.
 
Terms like "native" and "indigenous" never refer to individuals. They refer to the collective -- the culture which developed in situ. It is the collective which holds the rights -- not individuals. It has nothing at all to do with any individual's genetic make-up, birthplace, migration or anything else that is specific to that individual. The only thing that is relevant is whether or not the individual is recognized as part of the collective, as decided through self-identification and group acceptance by that collective.
 
Terms like "native" and "indigenous" never refer to individuals. They refer to the collective -- the culture which developed in situ. It is the collective which holds the rights -- not individuals. It has nothing at all to do with any individual's genetic make-up, birthplace, migration or anything else that is specific to that individual. The only thing that is relevant is whether or not the individual is recognized as part of the collective, as decided through self-identification and group acceptance by that collective.
The only thing that is relevant is whether or not the individual is recognized as part of the collective, as decided through self-identification and group acceptance by that collective.
That is pretty much the same everywhere. People who moved to Palestine and identified as Palestinian and were accepted as Palestinians became Palestinians.
 
That is pretty much the same everywhere. People who moved to Palestine and identified as Palestinian and were accepted as Palestinians became Palestinians.

So, you will cut out all this nonsense about colonialists and foreign invaders, then?
 
That is pretty much the same everywhere. People who moved to Palestine and identified as Palestinian and were accepted as Palestinians became Palestinians.

So, you will cut out all this nonsense about colonialists and foreign invaders, then?
The colonialists did not self identify as Palestinian and were not accepted as Palestinian. They kept themselves out of that loop.
 
That is pretty much the same everywhere. People who moved to Palestine and identified as Palestinian and were accepted as Palestinians became Palestinians.

So, you will cut out all this nonsense about colonialists and foreign invaders, then?
The colonialists did not self identify as Palestinian and were not accepted as Palestinian. They kept themselves out of that loop.

They had another loop -- their own culture in situ. They are not required to adopt another culture, even if you want to argue that Arab Palestine is also a distinct culture in situ.
 
That is pretty much the same everywhere. People who moved to Palestine and identified as Palestinian and were accepted as Palestinians became Palestinians.

So, you will cut out all this nonsense about colonialists and foreign invaders, then?
The colonialists did not self identify as Palestinian and were not accepted as Palestinian. They kept themselves out of that loop.

They had another loop -- their own culture in situ. They are not required to adopt another culture, even if you want to argue that Arab Palestine is also a distinct culture in situ.
Their bad. They went to Palestine and shunned everything Palestinian.
 
That is pretty much the same everywhere. People who moved to Palestine and identified as Palestinian and were accepted as Palestinians became Palestinians.

So, you will cut out all this nonsense about colonialists and foreign invaders, then?
The colonialists did not self identify as Palestinian and were not accepted as Palestinian. They kept themselves out of that loop.

They had another loop -- their own culture in situ. They are not required to adopt another culture, even if you want to argue that Arab Palestine is also a distinct culture in situ.
Their bad. They went to Palestine and shunned everything Palestinian.

When You say "Palestinian" You mean Arab?
 
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