The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Divine Wind]

Welll not so much. The Arab conquest did not result in a mass Arab migration into the area the Romano-Byzantine landowners were given the choice to convert to Islam or leave and the estates of those who left were taken over by Arab leaders/nobles/officers. The common people weren't given the option to leave and wwere allowed to go on as before so long as they paid "tribute" (taxes). Jerusalem was founded by Hurrians. The dead sea scrolls are religious texts that so far have proved nothing other than JUdaism was around in the Hashmonean period, which we knew already. Masada was built be the Edomite king of Judea and had no significance at all to Jewish people until Zionist historians publicised the siege based on the account of Flavius Josephus (even the mass suicide story is now disputed) No-one really knows exactly where "Solomon's" temple actually stood, so nothing is a clear cut as you'd like it to be.

At least we can agree that there is no such race as "Jews".

Translation: The Jews have no claim to Israel, but the Palestinians do.

Thanks for your input.

 

[Challenger]

Welll not so much. The Arab conquest did not result in a mass Arab migration into the area the Romano-Byzantine landowners were given the choice to convert to Islam or leave and the estates of those who left were taken over by Arab leaders/nobles/officers. The common people weren't given the option to leave and wwere allowed to go on as before so long as they paid "tribute" (taxes). Jerusalem was founded by Hurrians. The dead sea scrolls are religious texts that so far have proved nothing other than JUdaism was around in the Hashmonean period, which we knew already. Masada was built be the Edomite king of Judea and had no significance at all to Jewish people until Zionist historians publicised the siege based on the account of Flavius Josephus (even the mass suicide story is now disputed) No-one really knows exactly where "Solomon's" temple actually stood, so nothing is a clear cut as you'd like it to be.

At least we can agree that there is no such race as "Jews".

Translation: The Jews have no claim to Israel, but the Palestinians do.

Thanks for your input.

The native people of the place, whatever they may have been called in the past or are called now, have a greater claim to that place than European colonists driven by a religiously inspired pseudo-nationalist, impulse, oh, you're welcome.

 

[Hollie]

Welll not so much. The Arab conquest did not result in a mass Arab migration into the area the Romano-Byzantine landowners were given the choice to convert to Islam or leave and the estates of those who left were taken over by Arab leaders/nobles/officers. The common people weren't given the option to leave and wwere allowed to go on as before so long as they paid "tribute" (taxes). Jerusalem was founded by Hurrians. The dead sea scrolls are religious texts that so far have proved nothing other than JUdaism was around in the Hashmonean period, which we knew already. Masada was built be the Edomite king of Judea and had no significance at all to Jewish people until Zionist historians publicised the siege based on the account of Flavius Josephus (even the mass suicide story is now disputed) No-one really knows exactly where "Solomon's" temple actually stood, so nothing is a clear cut as you'd like it to be.

At least we can agree that there is no such race as "Jews".

Translation: The Jews have no claim to Israel, but the Palestinians do.

Thanks for your input.

The native people of the place, whatever they may have been called in the past or are called now, have a greater claim to that place than European colonists driven by a religiously inspired pseudo-nationalist, impulse, oh, you're welcome.

It's a stretch to falsely label Egyptian, Syrian and Lebanese squatters / colonists as native people.

Glad to assist with your education.

 

[Coyote]

And just like people like Phoenall claim the Palestinians have no historical or ancestral ties to the area. How he says Palestinians were invented in 1960 something and how they aren't a real people.

Nothing is going to insure that some people aren't going to attempt to delegetimize either the Jews or the Palestinians or try to negate their rights. Misusing terms like First Nations, isn't going to change that.

Recognizing the rights of First Nations or indiginous cultures wasn't supposed to be about granting special rights in an unresolved conflict. It was about protecting indiginous cultures threatened to extinction by the dominant invading culture......

Obviously Arabs in the area have history dating back to Muhammad's expansion of Islam in the 7th Century. Jew's have a more ancient claim to the land as archeological evidence proves. Is there any doubt Jerusalem was founded by Jews? That the Dead Sea scrolls are legitimate? That many of the ancient ruins in Israel such as Masada and Solomon's temple are of Jewish origin?

There is no such "race" as Palestinian. They're a culture. For that matter, there's no such race as Jews either.

There was never any nation called Palestine. Ever. So how can there be a "first nation" status of a country that never existed?

The Palestinians descend from a mix of ancient peoples there, including Jews, and others, as well as later Arabs, so they precede the Arabs. I don't think anyone is disputing that Jerusalem was founded by the Jews or the authenticity of Masada, etc.

"First Nations" really doesn't apply to this situation, either to the Jewish people or the Palestinians and ancient history really shouldn't be the determinator of claims to the region imo.

 

[Coyote]

Israel completely ceased to exist thousands of years ago.

If it ever existed in the first place. Remove the Bible from the equation and there is very little if any evidence for a "Kingdom of Israel", even less so that it was ever "Jewish" outside of possibly a ruling elite.

Archeology does support many of the main historical narratives, I have little doubt that there was a kingdom.

I want to use it to ensure that people like Challenger can't erase, deny or reject the historical, spiritual and ancestral ties that the Jewish people have to the territory. You know, like he JUST did by saying that the Jewish people are not a "real" people and therefore have NO RIGHTS to the reconstitution of the Jewish nation.

I'm erasing nothing, I'm highlighting the fact that Zionist "historians" invented a "Jewish people" from assorted groups tenuously linked together by a religion. You are arguing in effect that Mormons or Moonies, or Scientologists, are an "ethnic group". If that's the case, move over, the British are coming; according to this crowd, we have more right to Palestine than " the Jewish people" do. British Israelism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you saying a Jewish people did not exist prior to Zionist historians? In this area science does provide genetic evidence of close relationships among the Jewish people. A huge difference from members of proselytizing religions.

Judaism is a religion and of course there were adherants and practicioners of the religion before Zionism emerged, that has never been in doubt, but that's a religious group, not an ethenic one. Judea/Palestine in antiquity was a cosmopolitan area containing several ethicities speaking different languages and having their own customs and religions. Also Judaism was a proselytising religion for centuries until supplanted by Christianity and was not above carrying out forced conversions, especially during the Hashmonean period. As for "genetic evidence", the jury is still out on that one, so I'll forego comment.

I've never heard it was a proselytising religion - do you have a source for these?

 

[Shusha]

And just like people like Phoenall claim the Palestinians have no historical or ancestral ties to the area. How he says Palestinians were invented in 1960 something and how they aren't a real people.

I don't think that what Phoenall is saying is the same thing as what Challenger is saying. Let's ask.

Phoenall: Do you believe that the Palestinian people do not have inherent rights to a national self-determination? What would be your criteria for determining who is or who is not eligible for a national self-determination?

 

[Phoenall]

Israel completely ceased to exist thousands of years ago.

If it ever existed in the first place. Remove the Bible from the equation and there is very little if any evidence for a "Kingdom of Israel", even less so that it was ever "Jewish" outside of possibly a ruling elite.

I want to use it to ensure that people like Challenger can't erase, deny or reject the historical, spiritual and ancestral ties that the Jewish people have to the territory. You know, like he JUST did by saying that the Jewish people are not a "real" people and therefore have NO RIGHTS to the reconstitution of the Jewish nation.

I'm erasing nothing, I'm highlighting the fact that Zionist "historians" invented a "Jewish people" from assorted groups tenuously linked together by a religion. You are arguing in effect that Mormons or Moonies, or Scientologists, are an "ethnic group". If that's the case, move over, the British are coming; according to this crowd, we have more right to Palestine than " the Jewish people" do. British Israelism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to the hate sites you visit so much, and any evidence that is produced you claim is hasbara or zionist propaganda.

COWFLOP you erase the history of the Jews existence because it suits your POV, even that provided by the Greek and Roman scholars. Do you deny the evidence of Stone age man in Britain or bronze age and iron age man. Do you not have neolithic sites close to your home that prove the existence of various cultures. The same time period as the original Israel and the artifacts are better preserved being an arid part of the world. Are you going to deny the Pyramids of Egypt exist because they were built by Jewish slaves.

No you are arguing that the Jews do not exist because your hate group does not want to admit they have a close DNA match to the original inhabitants. You want the arab muslims to eradicate the Jews for you because you know your group would be arrested and imprisoned if you even talked about doing so yourselves. You have been found out and so ignore the truth hoping to enlist others to your little hate group

Palestinians have a close DNA match to Jews, closer in fact then some of the diaspora groups and arabs. That data does not come from a hate site.

Do they then how come the only link saying this has been discredited by the worlds leading geneticists. The arab muslims calling themselves palestinians know that they have no DNA match to the Jews, which is why they are not pushing for DNA testing to be done. For 90% of the Jews in the diaspora the DNA match to the Jews still living in palestine and the remains in the Jewish cemeteries is close to 98%, the arab muslims tested to date hit the same match as they do to Inuit's, Mongol's, Celt's, Amerindians and south African tribes at 85%. The match that denotes a member of the human race

 

[Phoenall]

Historically, Israel RE-GAINED the national self-determination of its people in 1948.

I disagree. Historically, Israel reinvented itself. It is not the same nation that existed 3000 years ago, it's not the same culture, and even the historical accuracy of some portions of their mythology is unsupported by archaeology or contradicted. It's a modern nation, and it's rights to exist have or should have nothing to do with ancient history but rather it's existence in the here and now, as the new homeland of a people who have historical ties to that region. Ironically, the Zionists looked at several different places for the establishment of their new nation, including Africa.

And palestine the nation did not exist until 1988, when arab muslims from Egypt and Syria declared independence on Jewish land. Yes Israel re-invented itself because it was allowed to so the nazi's had them all in one place at the same time, a pity it did not work as they planned. What archeological evidence supports the arab muslims claim to the land NOTHING thats what. But there is more archeological evidence for the Jews presence in palestine than there is for your presence in America, and for your first nations peoples presence as well. What proof do you have for this claim other than from the hate sites and islamonazi propaganda outlets, as that is all I can find. What there was was an effort by certain non Jewish groups to have them set up home in another place other than the holy land.

My point is - nations can be reinvented and recreated based on guesses about ancient history, but they are modern nations. Israel completely ceased to exist thousands of years ago.

I'm not claiming that archaeological evidence supports anyone's CLAIMS to anything. What is it with you guys and reading comprehension?

And yet you support the arab muslim view that Israel is invalid and should be destroyed

Where have I ever supported that? Got a link? (Course not)

I dont have the time to trawl through thousands of past posts, but you have said that the Jews dont have the right to claim the land and that International laws dont exist when they support the Jews claims.

 

[Phoenall]

Israel completely ceased to exist thousands of years ago.

If it ever existed in the first place. Remove the Bible from the equation and there is very little if any evidence for a "Kingdom of Israel", even less so that it was ever "Jewish" outside of possibly a ruling elite.

Archeology does support many of the main historical narratives, I have little doubt that there was a kingdom.

I want to use it to ensure that people like Challenger can't erase, deny or reject the historical, spiritual and ancestral ties that the Jewish people have to the territory. You know, like he JUST did by saying that the Jewish people are not a "real" people and therefore have NO RIGHTS to the reconstitution of the Jewish nation.

I'm erasing nothing, I'm highlighting the fact that Zionist "historians" invented a "Jewish people" from assorted groups tenuously linked together by a religion. You are arguing in effect that Mormons or Moonies, or Scientologists, are an "ethnic group". If that's the case, move over, the British are coming; according to this crowd, we have more right to Palestine than " the Jewish people" do. British Israelism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Are you saying a Jewish people did not exist prior to Zionist historians? In this area science does provide genetic evidence of close relationships among the Jewish people. A huge difference from members of proselytizing religions.

Judaism is a religion and of course there were adherants and practicioners of the religion before Zionism emerged, that has never been in doubt, but that's a religious group, not an ethenic one. Judea/Palestine in antiquity was a cosmopolitan area containing several ethicities speaking different languages and having their own customs and religions. Also Judaism was a proselytising religion for centuries until supplanted by Christianity and was not above carrying out forced conversions, especially during the Hashmonean period. As for "genetic evidence", the jury is still out on that one, so I'll forego comment.

That was 2000 years ago, after the diaspora they stopped touting for members and stayed true to their race. Israel today is a cosmopolitan nation, but the Jews are still true. So how about a link to prove your claim, or is it from one of the many hate sites you visit ?

 

[Phoenall]

And just like people like Phoenall claim the Palestinians have no historical or ancestral ties to the area. How he says Palestinians were invented in 1960 something and how they aren't a real people.

Nothing is going to insure that some people aren't going to attempt to delegetimize either the Jews or the Palestinians or try to negate their rights. Misusing terms like First Nations, isn't going to change that.

Recognizing the rights of First Nations or indiginous cultures wasn't supposed to be about granting special rights in an unresolved conflict. It was about protecting indiginous cultures threatened to extinction by the dominant invading culture......

Obviously Arabs in the area have history dating back to Muhammad's expansion of Islam in the 7th Century. Jew's have a more ancient claim to the land as archeological evidence proves. Is there any doubt Jerusalem was founded by Jews? That the Dead Sea scrolls are legitimate? That many of the ancient ruins in Israel such as Masada and Solomon's temple are of Jewish origin?

There is no such "race" as Palestinian. They're a culture. For that matter, there's no such race as Jews either.

There was never any nation called Palestine. Ever. So how can there be a "first nation" status of a country that never existed?

Good question. What were Native Americans called before it was America?

Did they just not exist?

They had many names like Cherokee, Sioux, Comanche, Mohican, Black Feet, Navajo to name but a few. It was the Romans that named the Jews palestinians as an insult, and the Christians took it up as a derogatory term. Then in the 8C it was the arab muslims that turned it into a swear word, while calling themselves Syrians

 

[Phoenall]

....Obviously Arabs in the area have history dating back to Muhammad's expansion of Islam in the 7th Century. Jew's have a more ancient claim to the land as archeological evidence proves. Is there any doubt Jerusalem was founded by Jews? That the Dead Sea scrolls are legitimate? That many of the ancient ruins in Israel such as Masada and Solomon's temple are of Jewish origin?

There is no such "race" as Palestinian. They're a culture. For that matter, there's no such race as Jews either.

There was never any nation called Palestine. Ever. So how can there be a "first nation" status of a country that never existed?

Welll not so much. The Arab conquest did not result in a mass Arab migration into the area the Romano-Byzantine landowners were given the choice to convert to Islam or leave and the estates of those who left were taken over by Arab leaders/nobles/officers. The common people weren't given the option to leave and wwere allowed to go on as before so long as they paid "tribute" (taxes). Jerusalem was founded by Hurrians. The dead sea scrolls are religious texts that so far have proved nothing other than JUdaism was around in the Hashmonean period, which we knew already. Masada was built be the Edomite king of Judea and had no significance at all to Jewish people until Zionist historians publicised the siege based on the account of Flavius Josephus (even the mass suicide story is now disputed) No-one really knows exactly where "Solomon's" temple actually stood, so nothing is a clear cut as you'd like it to be.

At least we can agree that there is no such race as "Jews".

All according to which hate site from the dozens you visit, you wont give a link to your claims as you know that the site alone will be enough to put most people off.

 

[Divine Wind]

The native people of the place, whatever they may have been called in the past or are called now, have a greater claim to that place than European colonists driven by a religiously inspired pseudo-nationalist, impulse, oh, you're welcome.

What is your genealogical ancestry? Are you going to give up your stake in America to its natives and return to the Old Country?......or does that idea only apply to Jews?

 

[Phoenall]

And just like people like Phoenall claim the Palestinians have no historical or ancestral ties to the area. How he says Palestinians were invented in 1960 something and how they aren't a real people.

I don't think that what Phoenall is saying is the same thing as what Challenger is saying. Let's ask.

Phoenall: Do you believe that the Palestinian people do not have inherent rights to a national self-determination? What would be your criteria for determining who is or who is not eligible for a national self-determination?

Yes they have on the land that they originally came from if less than 100 years ago.

DNA testing and property title issued by the Ottomans or the British. Waving around a rusty key bought in a market proves nothing, or one of the many thousands that arafat had printed.

I remember hearing of an arab muslim who pointed to a new complex and saying that window on the second floor was my bedroom window. The building was less than 5 years old and he had not lived in Israel for 20 years according to him, the window was for the bathroom.

 

[fanger]

Thats rich coming from you, one who never posts a link

 

[Divine Wind]

The Palestinians descend from a mix of ancient peoples there, including Jews, and others, as well as later Arabs, so they precede the Arabs. I don't think anyone is disputing that Jerusalem was founded by the Jews or the authenticity of Masada, etc.

"First Nations" really doesn't apply to this situation, either to the Jewish people or the Palestinians and ancient history really shouldn't be the determinator of claims to the region imo.

Since religion is cultural, I completely agree about the genealogy and genetic history of the entire region.

Since "First Nations" doesn't apply here, I suggest the "Possession is nine tenths of the law" rule.

Let's not forget that many Palestinians left on the promise other Arab nations would quickly steamroll the new nation of Israel into the desert sands and they'd return home once the war was over. When that didn't happen, those who fled were fucked. Sadly, the other Arab nations didn't offer many refugee status.

 

[fanger]

And just like people like Phoenall claim the Palestinians have no historical or ancestral ties to the area. How he says Palestinians were invented in 1960 something and how they aren't a real people.

I don't think that what Phoenall is saying is the same thing as what Challenger is saying. Let's ask.

Phoenall: Do you believe that the Palestinian people do not have inherent rights to a national self-determination? What would be your criteria for determining who is or who is not eligible for a national self-determination?

Yes they have on the land that they originally came from if less than 100 years ago.

DNA testing and property title issued by the Ottomans or the British. Waving around a rusty key bought in a market proves nothing, or one of the many thousands that arafat had printed.

I remember hearing of an arab muslim who pointed to a new complex and saying that window on the second floor was my bedroom window. The building was less than 5 years old and he had not lived in Israel for 20 years according to him, the window was for the bathroom.

Link?

 

[Phoenall]

The native people of the place, whatever they may have been called in the past or are called now, have a greater claim to that place than European colonists driven by a religiously inspired pseudo-nationalist, impulse, oh, you're welcome.

What is your genealogical ancestry? Are you going to give up your stake in America to its natives and return to the Old Country?......or does that idea only apply to Jews?

Mine is possibly Mycenae, an ancient Celtic tribe that lived in what is now east Anglia. From there it went to a seafaring family that were owners of trading vessels before moving north when the industrial revolution began. They still were ship owners and carried the raw material to the new factories. My maternal grandfather died at sea before I was born. A shortened version of my ancestory and I still live in Britain

 

[Phoenall]

And just like people like Phoenall claim the Palestinians have no historical or ancestral ties to the area. How he says Palestinians were invented in 1960 something and how they aren't a real people.

I don't think that what Phoenall is saying is the same thing as what Challenger is saying. Let's ask.

Phoenall: Do you believe that the Palestinian people do not have inherent rights to a national self-determination? What would be your criteria for determining who is or who is not eligible for a national self-determination?

Yes they have on the land that they originally came from if less than 100 years ago.

DNA testing and property title issued by the Ottomans or the British. Waving around a rusty key bought in a market proves nothing, or one of the many thousands that arafat had printed.

I remember hearing of an arab muslim who pointed to a new complex and saying that window on the second floor was my bedroom window. The building was less than 5 years old and he had not lived in Israel for 20 years according to him, the window was for the bathroom.

Link?

Go away and learn how to read stupid

 

[Phoenall]

Welll not so much. The Arab conquest did not result in a mass Arab migration into the area the Romano-Byzantine landowners were given the choice to convert to Islam or leave and the estates of those who left were taken over by Arab leaders/nobles/officers. The common people weren't given the option to leave and wwere allowed to go on as before so long as they paid "tribute" (taxes). Jerusalem was founded by Hurrians. The dead sea scrolls are religious texts that so far have proved nothing other than JUdaism was around in the Hashmonean period, which we knew already. Masada was built be the Edomite king of Judea and had no significance at all to Jewish people until Zionist historians publicised the siege based on the account of Flavius Josephus (even the mass suicide story is now disputed) No-one really knows exactly where "Solomon's" temple actually stood, so nothing is a clear cut as you'd like it to be.

At least we can agree that there is no such race as "Jews".

Translation: The Jews have no claim to Israel, but the Palestinians do.

Thanks for your input.

The native people of the place, whatever they may have been called in the past or are called now, have a greater claim to that place than European colonists driven by a religiously inspired pseudo-nationalist, impulse, oh, you're welcome.

Even if they can show they have genetic links to the people who lived there over 2000 years ago.

 

[Phoenall]

And just like people like Phoenall claim the Palestinians have no historical or ancestral ties to the area. How he says Palestinians were invented in 1960 something and how they aren't a real people.

Nothing is going to insure that some people aren't going to attempt to delegetimize either the Jews or the Palestinians or try to negate their rights. Misusing terms like First Nations, isn't going to change that.

Recognizing the rights of First Nations or indiginous cultures wasn't supposed to be about granting special rights in an unresolved conflict. It was about protecting indiginous cultures threatened to extinction by the dominant invading culture......

Obviously Arabs in the area have history dating back to Muhammad's expansion of Islam in the 7th Century. Jew's have a more ancient claim to the land as archeological evidence proves. Is there any doubt Jerusalem was founded by Jews? That the Dead Sea scrolls are legitimate? That many of the ancient ruins in Israel such as Masada and Solomon's temple are of Jewish origin?

There is no such "race" as Palestinian. They're a culture. For that matter, there's no such race as Jews either.

There was never any nation called Palestine. Ever. So how can there be a "first nation" status of a country that never existed?

The Palestinians descend from a mix of ancient peoples there, including Jews, and others, as well as later Arabs, so they precede the Arabs. I don't think anyone is disputing that Jerusalem was founded by the Jews or the authenticity of Masada, etc.

"First Nations" really doesn't apply to this situation, either to the Jewish people or the Palestinians and ancient history really shouldn't be the determinator of claims to the region imo.

And Winston Churchill told the world that the arab muslims were flooding palestine with illegal immigrants, more than all world Jewry could hope to match in his words