The OLDER Official Discussion Thread for the creation of Israel, the UN and the British Mandate

[Divine Wind]

The native people of the place, whatever they may have been called in the past or are called now, have a greater claim to that place than European colonists driven by a religiously inspired pseudo-nationalist, impulse, oh, you're welcome.

What is your genealogical ancestry? Are you going to give up your stake in America to its natives and return to the Old Country?......or does that idea only apply to Jews?

Mine is possibly Mycenae, an ancient Celtic tribe that lived in what is now east Anglia. From there it went to a seafaring family that were owners of trading vessels before moving north when the industrial revolution began. They still were ship owners and carried the raw material to the new factories. My maternal grandfather died at sea before I was born. A shortened version of my ancestory and I still live in Britain

Mine is pure American Heinz 57, German name with a lot of Brit and Dutch blood plus other stuff. My wife and I want to do a genetic ancestry test for our birthdays.

 

[Coyote]

And just like people like Phoenall claim the Palestinians have no historical or ancestral ties to the area. How he says Palestinians were invented in 1960 something and how they aren't a real people.

I don't think that what Phoenall is saying is the same thing as what Challenger is saying. Let's ask.

Phoenall: Do you believe that the Palestinian people do not have inherent rights to a national self-determination? What would be your criteria for determining who is or who is not eligible for a national self-determination?

I have never once heard Phoenal, Kondor, MJB and several others express support for the Palestinian people for natinal self determination beyond shipping them to Jordan.

Let's also ask the same of Challenger: Do you believe that the Jewish people do not have inherent rights to a national self-determination? What would be your criteria for determining who is or who is not eligible for a national self-determination?

 

[Coyote]

Israel completely ceased to exist thousands of years ago.

If it ever existed in the first place. Remove the Bible from the equation and there is very little if any evidence for a "Kingdom of Israel", even less so that it was ever "Jewish" outside of possibly a ruling elite.

I want to use it to ensure that people like Challenger can't erase, deny or reject the historical, spiritual and ancestral ties that the Jewish people have to the territory. You know, like he JUST did by saying that the Jewish people are not a "real" people and therefore have NO RIGHTS to the reconstitution of the Jewish nation.

I'm erasing nothing, I'm highlighting the fact that Zionist "historians" invented a "Jewish people" from assorted groups tenuously linked together by a religion. You are arguing in effect that Mormons or Moonies, or Scientologists, are an "ethnic group". If that's the case, move over, the British are coming; according to this crowd, we have more right to Palestine than " the Jewish people" do. British Israelism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to the hate sites you visit so much, and any evidence that is produced you claim is hasbara or zionist propaganda.

COWFLOP you erase the history of the Jews existence because it suits your POV, even that provided by the Greek and Roman scholars. Do you deny the evidence of Stone age man in Britain or bronze age and iron age man. Do you not have neolithic sites close to your home that prove the existence of various cultures. The same time period as the original Israel and the artifacts are better preserved being an arid part of the world. Are you going to deny the Pyramids of Egypt exist because they were built by Jewish slaves.

No you are arguing that the Jews do not exist because your hate group does not want to admit they have a close DNA match to the original inhabitants. You want the arab muslims to eradicate the Jews for you because you know your group would be arrested and imprisoned if you even talked about doing so yourselves. You have been found out and so ignore the truth hoping to enlist others to your little hate group

Palestinians have a close DNA match to Jews, closer in fact then some of the diaspora groups and arabs. That data does not come from a hate site.

Do they then how come the only link saying this has been discredited by the worlds leading geneticists. The arab muslims calling themselves palestinians know that they have no DNA match to the Jews, which is why they are not pushing for DNA testing to be done. For 90% of the Jews in the diaspora the DNA match to the Jews still living in palestine and the remains in the Jewish cemeteries is close to 98%, the arab muslims tested to date hit the same match as they do to Inuit's, Mongol's, Celt's, Amerindians and south African tribes at 85%. The match that denotes a member of the human race

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots
The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

Why does this close relationship bother you so much?

 

[Coyote]

And just like people like Phoenall claim the Palestinians have no historical or ancestral ties to the area. How he says Palestinians were invented in 1960 something and how they aren't a real people.

Nothing is going to insure that some people aren't going to attempt to delegetimize either the Jews or the Palestinians or try to negate their rights. Misusing terms like First Nations, isn't going to change that.

Recognizing the rights of First Nations or indiginous cultures wasn't supposed to be about granting special rights in an unresolved conflict. It was about protecting indiginous cultures threatened to extinction by the dominant invading culture......

Obviously Arabs in the area have history dating back to Muhammad's expansion of Islam in the 7th Century. Jew's have a more ancient claim to the land as archeological evidence proves. Is there any doubt Jerusalem was founded by Jews? That the Dead Sea scrolls are legitimate? That many of the ancient ruins in Israel such as Masada and Solomon's temple are of Jewish origin?

There is no such "race" as Palestinian. They're a culture. For that matter, there's no such race as Jews either.

There was never any nation called Palestine. Ever. So how can there be a "first nation" status of a country that never existed?

The Palestinians descend from a mix of ancient peoples there, including Jews, and others, as well as later Arabs, so they precede the Arabs. I don't think anyone is disputing that Jerusalem was founded by the Jews or the authenticity of Masada, etc.

"First Nations" really doesn't apply to this situation, either to the Jewish people or the Palestinians and ancient history really shouldn't be the determinator of claims to the region imo.

And Winston Churchill told the world that the arab muslims were flooding palestine with illegal immigrants, more than all world Jewry could hope to match in his words

And that means what? Politicians aren't known for truthiness and there were a lot of agendas going on at that time. There was illegal Arab immigration and illegal Jewish immigration going on, but not as much as claimed by some.

 

[Coyote]

And just like people like Phoenall claim the Palestinians have no historical or ancestral ties to the area. How he says Palestinians were invented in 1960 something and how they aren't a real people.

I don't think that what Phoenall is saying is the same thing as what Challenger is saying. Let's ask.

Phoenall: Do you believe that the Palestinian people do not have inherent rights to a national self-determination? What would be your criteria for determining who is or who is not eligible for a national self-determination?

Yes they have on the land that they originally came from if less than 100 years ago.

DNA testing and property title issued by the Ottomans or the British. Waving around a rusty key bought in a market proves nothing, or one of the many thousands that arafat had printed.

I remember hearing of an arab muslim who pointed to a new complex and saying that window on the second floor was my bedroom window. The building was less than 5 years old and he had not lived in Israel for 20 years according to him, the window was for the bathroom.

In otherwords...that means what exactly? Do they have an inherent right to national self-determination in Palestine....?

DNA testing would prove what exactly?

 

[Coyote]

I disagree. Historically, Israel reinvented itself. It is not the same nation that existed 3000 years ago, it's not the same culture, and even the historical accuracy of some portions of their mythology is unsupported by archaeology or contradicted. It's a modern nation, and it's rights to exist have or should have nothing to do with ancient history but rather it's existence in the here and now, as the new homeland of a people who have historical ties to that region. Ironically, the Zionists looked at several different places for the establishment of their new nation, including Africa.

And palestine the nation did not exist until 1988, when arab muslims from Egypt and Syria declared independence on Jewish land. Yes Israel re-invented itself because it was allowed to so the nazi's had them all in one place at the same time, a pity it did not work as they planned. What archeological evidence supports the arab muslims claim to the land NOTHING thats what. But there is more archeological evidence for the Jews presence in palestine than there is for your presence in America, and for your first nations peoples presence as well. What proof do you have for this claim other than from the hate sites and islamonazi propaganda outlets, as that is all I can find. What there was was an effort by certain non Jewish groups to have them set up home in another place other than the holy land.

My point is - nations can be reinvented and recreated based on guesses about ancient history, but they are modern nations. Israel completely ceased to exist thousands of years ago.

I'm not claiming that archaeological evidence supports anyone's CLAIMS to anything. What is it with you guys and reading comprehension?

And yet you support the arab muslim view that Israel is invalid and should be destroyed

Where have I ever supported that? Got a link? (Course not)

I dont have the time to trawl through thousands of past posts, but you have said that the Jews dont have the right to claim the land and that International laws dont exist when they support the Jews claims.

You're completely moving the goalposts...first you said this: And yet you support the arab muslim view that Israel is invalid and should be destroyed

Then, when asked for a link, you claim you "don't have time" to find one and reword your claim to: Jews dont have the right to claim the land and that International laws dont exist when they support the Jews claims

You do realize there is a HUGE difference between the two claims. Are you now saying your first accusation was false?

Your second claim has nothing to do with your first - it's possible I would say one or both parts of the second claim, but it is very contextual - depends on what you are talking about. For example - I have and continue to say there is no right of return beyond the immidiate people who were expelled. Their progeny has no right of return or claim to the area beyond what they legally purchase or can show proof of ownership for, and if ownership is contested it goes to the courts.

 

[Divine Wind]

I have never once heard Phoenal, Kondor, MJB and several others express support for the Palestinian people for natinal self determination beyond shipping them to Jordan.

Let's also ask the same of Challenger: Do you believe that the Jewish people do not have inherent rights to a national self-determination? What would be your criteria for determining who is or who is not eligible for a national self-determination?

I fully support the right of all people the unalienable right of self-determination. When that self-determination involves killing others with suicide belts and rocket attacks, that right is lost to the right of self-defense.

 

[Coyote]

I have never once heard Phoenal, Kondor, MJB and several others express support for the Palestinian people for natinal self determination beyond shipping them to Jordan.

Let's also ask the same of Challenger: Do you believe that the Jewish people do not have inherent rights to a national self-determination? What would be your criteria for determining who is or who is not eligible for a national self-determination?

I fully support the right of all people the unalienable right of self-determination. When that self-determination involves killing others with suicide belts and rocket attacks, that right is lost to the right of self-defense.

I would simply state when that self determination leads to terrorism or unprovoked attack, it doesn't matter what form it takes.

 

[Mindful]

Who are these people "like Phoenall"?

And what is Phoenall "like"?

 

[rylah]

Israel completely ceased to exist thousands of years ago.

If it ever existed in the first place. Remove the Bible from the equation and there is very little if any evidence for a "Kingdom of Israel", even less so that it was ever "Jewish" outside of possibly a ruling elite.

I want to use it to ensure that people like Challenger can't erase, deny or reject the historical, spiritual and ancestral ties that the Jewish people have to the territory. You know, like he JUST did by saying that the Jewish people are not a "real" people and therefore have NO RIGHTS to the reconstitution of the Jewish nation.

I'm erasing nothing, I'm highlighting the fact that Zionist "historians" invented a "Jewish people" from assorted groups tenuously linked together by a religion. You are arguing in effect that Mormons or Moonies, or Scientologists, are an "ethnic group". If that's the case, move over, the British are coming; according to this crowd, we have more right to Palestine than " the Jewish people" do. British Israelism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to the hate sites you visit so much, and any evidence that is produced you claim is hasbara or zionist propaganda.

COWFLOP you erase the history of the Jews existence because it suits your POV, even that provided by the Greek and Roman scholars. Do you deny the evidence of Stone age man in Britain or bronze age and iron age man. Do you not have neolithic sites close to your home that prove the existence of various cultures. The same time period as the original Israel and the artifacts are better preserved being an arid part of the world. Are you going to deny the Pyramids of Egypt exist because they were built by Jewish slaves.

No you are arguing that the Jews do not exist because your hate group does not want to admit they have a close DNA match to the original inhabitants. You want the arab muslims to eradicate the Jews for you because you know your group would be arrested and imprisoned if you even talked about doing so yourselves. You have been found out and so ignore the truth hoping to enlist others to your little hate group

Palestinians have a close DNA match to Jews, closer in fact then some of the diaspora groups and arabs. That data does not come from a hate site.

Do they then how come the only link saying this has been discredited by the worlds leading geneticists. The arab muslims calling themselves palestinians know that they have no DNA match to the Jews, which is why they are not pushing for DNA testing to be done. For 90% of the Jews in the diaspora the DNA match to the Jews still living in palestine and the remains in the Jewish cemeteries is close to 98%, the arab muslims tested to date hit the same match as they do to Inuit's, Mongol's, Celt's, Amerindians and south African tribes at 85%. The match that denotes a member of the human race

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots
The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

Why does this close relationship bother you so much?

From the sources of the 'study' you've linked:

"Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin differed from the other Middle Eastern populations studied here, mainly in specific high-frequency Eu 10 haplotypes not found in the non-Arab groups."

and the Haaretz just takes for granted that there's a Palestinian people and that they are somehow different from other Arabs, without presenting any basis.
However for the Jews, they dig in and analyse the long history. When concluding their finding they suddenly take the "Palestinians" out and compare them to the Jews.
Haaretz at its' best. The other site deals with the schism between the Science and Religion and at least calls the Palestinians as they call themselves-Arabs.

But yeah Semites have a genetic connection, however it doesn't mean that Jews and Arabs are the same, or that one Semitic group should get all of ME.

 

[Mindful]

If it ever existed in the first place. Remove the Bible from the equation and there is very little if any evidence for a "Kingdom of Israel", even less so that it was ever "Jewish" outside of possibly a ruling elite.

I'm erasing nothing, I'm highlighting the fact that Zionist "historians" invented a "Jewish people" from assorted groups tenuously linked together by a religion. You are arguing in effect that Mormons or Moonies, or Scientologists, are an "ethnic group". If that's the case, move over, the British are coming; according to this crowd, we have more right to Palestine than " the Jewish people" do. British Israelism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to the hate sites you visit so much, and any evidence that is produced you claim is hasbara or zionist propaganda.

COWFLOP you erase the history of the Jews existence because it suits your POV, even that provided by the Greek and Roman scholars. Do you deny the evidence of Stone age man in Britain or bronze age and iron age man. Do you not have neolithic sites close to your home that prove the existence of various cultures. The same time period as the original Israel and the artifacts are better preserved being an arid part of the world. Are you going to deny the Pyramids of Egypt exist because they were built by Jewish slaves.

No you are arguing that the Jews do not exist because your hate group does not want to admit they have a close DNA match to the original inhabitants. You want the arab muslims to eradicate the Jews for you because you know your group would be arrested and imprisoned if you even talked about doing so yourselves. You have been found out and so ignore the truth hoping to enlist others to your little hate group

Palestinians have a close DNA match to Jews, closer in fact then some of the diaspora groups and arabs. That data does not come from a hate site.

Do they then how come the only link saying this has been discredited by the worlds leading geneticists. The arab muslims calling themselves palestinians know that they have no DNA match to the Jews, which is why they are not pushing for DNA testing to be done. For 90% of the Jews in the diaspora the DNA match to the Jews still living in palestine and the remains in the Jewish cemeteries is close to 98%, the arab muslims tested to date hit the same match as they do to Inuit's, Mongol's, Celt's, Amerindians and south African tribes at 85%. The match that denotes a member of the human race

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots
The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

Why does this close relationship bother you so much?

From the sources of the 'study' you've linked:

"Palestinian Arabs and Bedouin differed from the other Middle Eastern populations studied here, mainly in specific high-frequency Eu 10 haplotypes not found in the non-Arab groups."

and the Haaretz just takes for granted that there's a Palestinian people and that they are somehow different from other Arabs, without presenting any basis.
However for the Jews, they dig in and analyse the long history. When concluding their finding they suddenly take the "Palestinians" out and compare them to the Jews.
Haaretz at its' best. The other site deals with the schism between the Science and Religion and at least calls the Palestinians as they call themselves-Arabs.

But yeah Semites have a genetic connection, however it doesn't mean that Jews and Arabs are the same, or that one Semitic group should get all of ME.

Who got what was decided by the occupying powers.

And even then it was down to vested interests and a certain amount of in-fighting.

 

[Phoenall]

And just like people like Phoenall claim the Palestinians have no historical or ancestral ties to the area. How he says Palestinians were invented in 1960 something and how they aren't a real people.

I don't think that what Phoenall is saying is the same thing as what Challenger is saying. Let's ask.

Phoenall: Do you believe that the Palestinian people do not have inherent rights to a national self-determination? What would be your criteria for determining who is or who is not eligible for a national self-determination?

I have never once heard Phoenal, Kondor, MJB and several others express support for the Palestinian people for natinal self determination beyond shipping them to Jordan.

Let's also ask the same of Challenger: Do you believe that the Jewish people do not have inherent rights to a national self-determination? What would be your criteria for determining who is or who is not eligible for a national self-determination?

Because that is what the LoN decided was right in 1923, and if that had been enforced fully back then we would not have the situation we face today. I have never once heard any member of team palestine declare that the whole of the land to the west of the Jordan was granted to the Jews as their national home and the arab muslims are there illegally. That the UN overstepped their authority by carving up this land and giving the best of it to the arab muslims along with all the Jewish holy places. I have never seen the members of team palestine admit that Israel is acting in accordance with international laws when they respond to arab muslim violence, terrorism and acts of war.
I do see many saying that the Israelis are apartheid because they wont allow the non citizen arab muslims the vote, and have a two tier legal system in place as demanded by the Geneva conventions. I see team palestine saying the Israelis are guilty of war crimes when the children and civilians forced to act as human shields by hamas are killed.

 

[Phoenall]

Israel completely ceased to exist thousands of years ago.

If it ever existed in the first place. Remove the Bible from the equation and there is very little if any evidence for a "Kingdom of Israel", even less so that it was ever "Jewish" outside of possibly a ruling elite.

I want to use it to ensure that people like Challenger can't erase, deny or reject the historical, spiritual and ancestral ties that the Jewish people have to the territory. You know, like he JUST did by saying that the Jewish people are not a "real" people and therefore have NO RIGHTS to the reconstitution of the Jewish nation.

I'm erasing nothing, I'm highlighting the fact that Zionist "historians" invented a "Jewish people" from assorted groups tenuously linked together by a religion. You are arguing in effect that Mormons or Moonies, or Scientologists, are an "ethnic group". If that's the case, move over, the British are coming; according to this crowd, we have more right to Palestine than " the Jewish people" do. British Israelism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to the hate sites you visit so much, and any evidence that is produced you claim is hasbara or zionist propaganda.

COWFLOP you erase the history of the Jews existence because it suits your POV, even that provided by the Greek and Roman scholars. Do you deny the evidence of Stone age man in Britain or bronze age and iron age man. Do you not have neolithic sites close to your home that prove the existence of various cultures. The same time period as the original Israel and the artifacts are better preserved being an arid part of the world. Are you going to deny the Pyramids of Egypt exist because they were built by Jewish slaves.

No you are arguing that the Jews do not exist because your hate group does not want to admit they have a close DNA match to the original inhabitants. You want the arab muslims to eradicate the Jews for you because you know your group would be arrested and imprisoned if you even talked about doing so yourselves. You have been found out and so ignore the truth hoping to enlist others to your little hate group

Palestinians have a close DNA match to Jews, closer in fact then some of the diaspora groups and arabs. That data does not come from a hate site.

Do they then how come the only link saying this has been discredited by the worlds leading geneticists. The arab muslims calling themselves palestinians know that they have no DNA match to the Jews, which is why they are not pushing for DNA testing to be done. For 90% of the Jews in the diaspora the DNA match to the Jews still living in palestine and the remains in the Jewish cemeteries is close to 98%, the arab muslims tested to date hit the same match as they do to Inuit's, Mongol's, Celt's, Amerindians and south African tribes at 85%. The match that denotes a member of the human race

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots
The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

Why does this close relationship bother you so much?

It doesn't if it was true, but seeing as the same source for the testing is used an has been debunked as faulty by peers in genetics should have you asking questions. Why is the scientist who is not even a geneticist pushing flawed work into the public domain and antagonizing his fellow scientists by causing public spats. They use the simplest of tricks to get the masses behind them, go for a tried and tested group of DNA strands that are very close in all humans and pass them of as an in depth study. When asked to explain the disparity he did a tinmore and ignored the questions.
Let me ask you this if you had an infected finger that needed lancing, draining and treated with antibiotics would you go to a back street abortionist or a qualified doctor. In this case would you believe a geneticist or an archeologist ?

 

[Phoenall]

And just like people like Phoenall claim the Palestinians have no historical or ancestral ties to the area. How he says Palestinians were invented in 1960 something and how they aren't a real people.

Nothing is going to insure that some people aren't going to attempt to delegetimize either the Jews or the Palestinians or try to negate their rights. Misusing terms like First Nations, isn't going to change that.

Recognizing the rights of First Nations or indiginous cultures wasn't supposed to be about granting special rights in an unresolved conflict. It was about protecting indiginous cultures threatened to extinction by the dominant invading culture......

Obviously Arabs in the area have history dating back to Muhammad's expansion of Islam in the 7th Century. Jew's have a more ancient claim to the land as archeological evidence proves. Is there any doubt Jerusalem was founded by Jews? That the Dead Sea scrolls are legitimate? That many of the ancient ruins in Israel such as Masada and Solomon's temple are of Jewish origin?

There is no such "race" as Palestinian. They're a culture. For that matter, there's no such race as Jews either.

There was never any nation called Palestine. Ever. So how can there be a "first nation" status of a country that never existed?

The Palestinians descend from a mix of ancient peoples there, including Jews, and others, as well as later Arabs, so they precede the Arabs. I don't think anyone is disputing that Jerusalem was founded by the Jews or the authenticity of Masada, etc.

"First Nations" really doesn't apply to this situation, either to the Jewish people or the Palestinians and ancient history really shouldn't be the determinator of claims to the region imo.

And Winston Churchill told the world that the arab muslims were flooding palestine with illegal immigrants, more than all world Jewry could hope to match in his words

And that means what? Politicians aren't known for truthiness and there were a lot of agendas going on at that time. There was illegal Arab immigration and illegal Jewish immigration going on, but not as much as claimed by some.

It means that team palestine knows the truth and is still lying because it proves the vast majority of arab muslims calling themselves palestinians are illegal immigrants. They know that if they accept the reports of the time from more than one source they dont have an argument. They are afraid to face the truth as it proves they are just Jew haters and racist anti semites allied to nazi's

 

[Phoenall]

And just like people like Phoenall claim the Palestinians have no historical or ancestral ties to the area. How he says Palestinians were invented in 1960 something and how they aren't a real people.

I don't think that what Phoenall is saying is the same thing as what Challenger is saying. Let's ask.

Phoenall: Do you believe that the Palestinian people do not have inherent rights to a national self-determination? What would be your criteria for determining who is or who is not eligible for a national self-determination?

Yes they have on the land that they originally came from if less than 100 years ago.

DNA testing and property title issued by the Ottomans or the British. Waving around a rusty key bought in a market proves nothing, or one of the many thousands that arafat had printed.

I remember hearing of an arab muslim who pointed to a new complex and saying that window on the second floor was my bedroom window. The building was less than 5 years old and he had not lived in Israel for 20 years according to him, the window was for the bathroom.

In otherwords...that means what exactly? Do they have an inherent right to national self-determination in Palestine....?

DNA testing would prove what exactly?

That he was LYING to gain by fraud something he was not entitled to. Only if they can prove that they lived there prior to 1923, and did not arrive uninvited and illegally. DNA testing would prove their lineage, just as it has done for the majority of Jews returning to Israel. If after 2000 years the DNA is not distinctive of a seperate palestinian genome then it shows they are recent arrivals. The true palestinian arabs are those that already live in Israel as full citizens.

 

[Hossfly]

The meat of the argument is this: you want to use it for a "nation" that ceased to exist thousands of years ago

I want to use it to ensure that people like Challenger can't erase, deny or reject the historical, spiritual and ancestral ties that the Jewish people have to the territory. You know, like he JUST did by saying that the Jewish people are not a "real" people and therefore have NO RIGHTS to the reconstitution of the Jewish nation.

and imo, that stretches the meaning of it very thin since no one is sure of the history of that era or the peoples within it.

Excuse me? No one is sure of the history of that era? Or that of the Jewish people? Compared to which other peoples in the world? And starting from how long ago? There is CLEAR archeological evidence of the existence of the Israelites and the nation of Israel (the culture and the nation of the Jewish people). There is clear evidence of at least the Second Temple, if not the First (and there is probably evidence for the First and more if we were permitted to look). There is clear evidence of Jerusalem being an important administrative town of the Israelites. There is physical evidence for a number of named kings and leaders. There is a written history, as well as an oral one. One of the few things we DON'T have evidence for is the Exodus -- we have evidence for nearly everything else.

Its like saying no one is sure of the history of the Chinese people. Or the Korean people. Or the Egyptian people. What kind of evidence to you need to have in order to classify a people as a people and therefore deserving of rights? Why are you not arguing that Korea can't be a nation because no one is sure of the history of that area or the peoples within it? Convince me that you are applying the SAME criteria universally, because it does not appear that you are. In fact, you are using the exact same arguments that Challenger and Tinmore and others use to deny rights to the Jewish people, you are just more adept at disguising it.

It could allow almost anyone to the claim first nations status and the special rights that go along with it. And that is what this is about.

Of course that is what this is about! What special rights do you think are claimed by First Nations peoples? I think that the special rights of First Nations peoples are the preservation of their sacred spaces; the preservation of their language and culture; the right to practice within their own religious, spiritual realms; the right to self-government; the right to apply their own legal understandings to their activities; the right to access natural resources in order to preserve their way of life.

It's the same as the "who is indiginous" argument - it is used as a means to grant greater rights to one group at the expense of the other.

As Rocco is constantly telling Tinmore -- rights don't work that way. Rights (and in this case we are discussing specifically the right to self-determination on ancestral territory) are not a zero sum game. One can not use the existence of one's rights to remove the rights of others. It just does not work that way. Rights are rights. They belong to people. People don't have greater or lesser rights to live or to own a home or to walk through the front door of an establishment or to access medical care or to not be raped. People just have those rights.

So it is ridiculous to argue that my rights erase your rights, or that my rights supercede your rights.

It fuels the argument Team Israel makes that the Palestinians are invaders and squatters who have no inherent rights ... and certainly FEWER rights...

Team Israel makes no such argument (and feel free to tag as many of them as you wish if you would like to ask them and prove me wrong). Indeed, that is projection, as Team Palestine most certainly makes those arguments.

I did remove the phrase in that place from your quote. I did to highlight an extremely relevant point. No one on Team Palestine is arguing against the inherent rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination. Never, in all my years of debate on this topic have I ever seen an pro-Israel poster argue that the Palestinian people have no inherent rights to be a "people". (Oh man, I would be so on that if I saw it).

I have seen arguments that the Palestinian people (and by that, I mean the Palestinians who are Arab Muslim or Arab Christian and have adopted the Arab culture) are invaders. I have seen arguments that those Palestinians already have a territory (Jordan). I have seen arguments that Palestinians are not a distinct enough culture to warrant a self-determination which is seperate from other, very similar cultures. I've seen lots of arguments about the essential inability of the Palestinians to govern a nation. But never have I seen the argument that the Palestinian people have no inherent rights. Prove me wrong.

Yet the anti-Israel argument is that the Jewish people have no inherent rights. Not in Israel. Not anywhere. They are erased, non-existent, the rules do not apply to them because they are not.

then people immigrating to that region, who's ancesters happened to live there thousands of years ago.

You have already stated that you do not believe in the right of return. That's fine. I have no beef with that. I disagree, of course. But its a valid, consistent argument. Of course, the extension of that belief is that it is perfectly legitimate for the returning Jewish people (or any other people for that matter) to push out the Arab Palestinians. If invasion transfers rights from one group to another -- it applies just as equally to the Jewish peoples as any other.

One can not use the existence of one's rights to remove the rights of others. It just does not work that way. Rights are rights. They belong to people.

So it is ridiculous to argue that my rights erase your rights, or that my rights supercede your rights.​

That is exactly what the Zionists did. They kicked the Palestinians out of their homes and have denied them their rights ever since.

The creation of Israel was a crime against the Palestinians.

Maybe the big crime by the Israelis was having jobs for the poor Arabs so that they left their impoverished surrounding countries and flooded into Israel. Look what happens when one country has jobs for non-native people, such as all the Turks in Germany. It's too bad both Germany and Israel had to import foreign workers because there might be more peace in these countries now.

The Holy Land: The Arabs in the Holy Land - Natives or Invaders?

The facts on the ground do not match what this guy says.

Are we supposed to believe the facts of a Hamas supporter who believes that Israel is inside this make-believe country of Palestine? No .way, José!!!

 

[Phoenall]

And palestine the nation did not exist until 1988, when arab muslims from Egypt and Syria declared independence on Jewish land. Yes Israel re-invented itself because it was allowed to so the nazi's had them all in one place at the same time, a pity it did not work as they planned. What archeological evidence supports the arab muslims claim to the land NOTHING thats what. But there is more archeological evidence for the Jews presence in palestine than there is for your presence in America, and for your first nations peoples presence as well. What proof do you have for this claim other than from the hate sites and islamonazi propaganda outlets, as that is all I can find. What there was was an effort by certain non Jewish groups to have them set up home in another place other than the holy land.

My point is - nations can be reinvented and recreated based on guesses about ancient history, but they are modern nations. Israel completely ceased to exist thousands of years ago.

I'm not claiming that archaeological evidence supports anyone's CLAIMS to anything. What is it with you guys and reading comprehension?

And yet you support the arab muslim view that Israel is invalid and should be destroyed

Where have I ever supported that? Got a link? (Course not)

I dont have the time to trawl through thousands of past posts, but you have said that the Jews dont have the right to claim the land and that International laws dont exist when they support the Jews claims.

You're completely moving the goalposts...first you said this: And yet you support the arab muslim view that Israel is invalid and should be destroyed

Then, when asked for a link, you claim you "don't have time" to find one and reword your claim to: Jews dont have the right to claim the land and that International laws dont exist when they support the Jews claims

You do realize there is a HUGE difference between the two claims. Are you now saying your first accusation was false?

Your second claim has nothing to do with your first - it's possible I would say one or both parts of the second claim, but it is very contextual - depends on what you are talking about. For example - I have and continue to say there is no right of return beyond the immidiate people who were expelled. Their progeny has no right of return or claim to the area beyond what they legally purchase or can show proof of ownership for, and if ownership is contested it goes to the courts.

Two separate claims as you well know, even though the two are linked. The context is International laws passed that affect both Jews and arab muslims that are denied when they work in the Jews favour, yet are accepted when they work in the arab muslims.

This is the same as saying that " that Israel is invalid and should be destroyed "

 

[P F Tinmore]

The meat of the argument is this: you want to use it for a "nation" that ceased to exist thousands of years ago

I want to use it to ensure that people like Challenger can't erase, deny or reject the historical, spiritual and ancestral ties that the Jewish people have to the territory. You know, like he JUST did by saying that the Jewish people are not a "real" people and therefore have NO RIGHTS to the reconstitution of the Jewish nation.

and imo, that stretches the meaning of it very thin since no one is sure of the history of that era or the peoples within it.

Excuse me? No one is sure of the history of that era? Or that of the Jewish people? Compared to which other peoples in the world? And starting from how long ago? There is CLEAR archeological evidence of the existence of the Israelites and the nation of Israel (the culture and the nation of the Jewish people). There is clear evidence of at least the Second Temple, if not the First (and there is probably evidence for the First and more if we were permitted to look). There is clear evidence of Jerusalem being an important administrative town of the Israelites. There is physical evidence for a number of named kings and leaders. There is a written history, as well as an oral one. One of the few things we DON'T have evidence for is the Exodus -- we have evidence for nearly everything else.

Its like saying no one is sure of the history of the Chinese people. Or the Korean people. Or the Egyptian people. What kind of evidence to you need to have in order to classify a people as a people and therefore deserving of rights? Why are you not arguing that Korea can't be a nation because no one is sure of the history of that area or the peoples within it? Convince me that you are applying the SAME criteria universally, because it does not appear that you are. In fact, you are using the exact same arguments that Challenger and Tinmore and others use to deny rights to the Jewish people, you are just more adept at disguising it.

It could allow almost anyone to the claim first nations status and the special rights that go along with it. And that is what this is about.

Of course that is what this is about! What special rights do you think are claimed by First Nations peoples? I think that the special rights of First Nations peoples are the preservation of their sacred spaces; the preservation of their language and culture; the right to practice within their own religious, spiritual realms; the right to self-government; the right to apply their own legal understandings to their activities; the right to access natural resources in order to preserve their way of life.

It's the same as the "who is indiginous" argument - it is used as a means to grant greater rights to one group at the expense of the other.

As Rocco is constantly telling Tinmore -- rights don't work that way. Rights (and in this case we are discussing specifically the right to self-determination on ancestral territory) are not a zero sum game. One can not use the existence of one's rights to remove the rights of others. It just does not work that way. Rights are rights. They belong to people. People don't have greater or lesser rights to live or to own a home or to walk through the front door of an establishment or to access medical care or to not be raped. People just have those rights.

So it is ridiculous to argue that my rights erase your rights, or that my rights supercede your rights.

It fuels the argument Team Israel makes that the Palestinians are invaders and squatters who have no inherent rights ... and certainly FEWER rights...

Team Israel makes no such argument (and feel free to tag as many of them as you wish if you would like to ask them and prove me wrong). Indeed, that is projection, as Team Palestine most certainly makes those arguments.

I did remove the phrase in that place from your quote. I did to highlight an extremely relevant point. No one on Team Palestine is arguing against the inherent rights of the Palestinian people to self-determination. Never, in all my years of debate on this topic have I ever seen an pro-Israel poster argue that the Palestinian people have no inherent rights to be a "people". (Oh man, I would be so on that if I saw it).

I have seen arguments that the Palestinian people (and by that, I mean the Palestinians who are Arab Muslim or Arab Christian and have adopted the Arab culture) are invaders. I have seen arguments that those Palestinians already have a territory (Jordan). I have seen arguments that Palestinians are not a distinct enough culture to warrant a self-determination which is seperate from other, very similar cultures. I've seen lots of arguments about the essential inability of the Palestinians to govern a nation. But never have I seen the argument that the Palestinian people have no inherent rights. Prove me wrong.

Yet the anti-Israel argument is that the Jewish people have no inherent rights. Not in Israel. Not anywhere. They are erased, non-existent, the rules do not apply to them because they are not.

then people immigrating to that region, who's ancesters happened to live there thousands of years ago.

You have already stated that you do not believe in the right of return. That's fine. I have no beef with that. I disagree, of course. But its a valid, consistent argument. Of course, the extension of that belief is that it is perfectly legitimate for the returning Jewish people (or any other people for that matter) to push out the Arab Palestinians. If invasion transfers rights from one group to another -- it applies just as equally to the Jewish peoples as any other.

One can not use the existence of one's rights to remove the rights of others. It just does not work that way. Rights are rights. They belong to people.

So it is ridiculous to argue that my rights erase your rights, or that my rights supercede your rights.​

That is exactly what the Zionists did. They kicked the Palestinians out of their homes and have denied them their rights ever since.

The creation of Israel was a crime against the Palestinians.

Maybe the big crime by the Israelis was having jobs for the poor Arabs so that they left their impoverished surrounding countries and flooded into Israel. Look what happens when one country has jobs for non-native people, such as all the Turks in Germany. It's too bad both Germany and Israel had to import foreign workers because there might be more peace in these countries now.

The Holy Land: The Arabs in the Holy Land - Natives or Invaders?

The facts on the ground do not match what this guy says.

Are we supposed to believe the facts of a Hamas supporter who believes that Israel is inside this make-believe country of Palestine? No .way, José!!!

Same old talk. Same old lack of evidence.

 

[Coyote]

If it ever existed in the first place. Remove the Bible from the equation and there is very little if any evidence for a "Kingdom of Israel", even less so that it was ever "Jewish" outside of possibly a ruling elite.

I'm erasing nothing, I'm highlighting the fact that Zionist "historians" invented a "Jewish people" from assorted groups tenuously linked together by a religion. You are arguing in effect that Mormons or Moonies, or Scientologists, are an "ethnic group". If that's the case, move over, the British are coming; according to this crowd, we have more right to Palestine than " the Jewish people" do. British Israelism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

According to the hate sites you visit so much, and any evidence that is produced you claim is hasbara or zionist propaganda.

COWFLOP you erase the history of the Jews existence because it suits your POV, even that provided by the Greek and Roman scholars. Do you deny the evidence of Stone age man in Britain or bronze age and iron age man. Do you not have neolithic sites close to your home that prove the existence of various cultures. The same time period as the original Israel and the artifacts are better preserved being an arid part of the world. Are you going to deny the Pyramids of Egypt exist because they were built by Jewish slaves.

No you are arguing that the Jews do not exist because your hate group does not want to admit they have a close DNA match to the original inhabitants. You want the arab muslims to eradicate the Jews for you because you know your group would be arrested and imprisoned if you even talked about doing so yourselves. You have been found out and so ignore the truth hoping to enlist others to your little hate group

Palestinians have a close DNA match to Jews, closer in fact then some of the diaspora groups and arabs. That data does not come from a hate site.

Do they then how come the only link saying this has been discredited by the worlds leading geneticists. The arab muslims calling themselves palestinians know that they have no DNA match to the Jews, which is why they are not pushing for DNA testing to be done. For 90% of the Jews in the diaspora the DNA match to the Jews still living in palestine and the remains in the Jewish cemeteries is close to 98%, the arab muslims tested to date hit the same match as they do to Inuit's, Mongol's, Celt's, Amerindians and south African tribes at 85%. The match that denotes a member of the human race

Blood brothers: Palestinians and Jews share genetic roots
The shared genetic heritage of Jews and Palestinians

Why does this close relationship bother you so much?

It doesn't if it was true, but seeing as the same source for the testing is used an has been debunked as faulty by peers in genetics should have you asking questions. Why is the scientist who is not even a geneticist pushing flawed work into the public domain and antagonizing his fellow scientists by causing public spats. They use the simplest of tricks to get the masses behind them, go for a tried and tested group of DNA strands that are very close in all humans and pass them of as an in depth study. When asked to explain the disparity he did a tinmore and ignored the questions.
Let me ask you this if you had an infected finger that needed lancing, draining and treated with antibiotics would you go to a back street abortionist or a qualified doctor. In this case would you believe a geneticist or an archeologist ?

There have been multiple studies on this, from one of my links:

Several major studies published in the past five years attest to these ancient hereditary links. At the forefront of these efforts are two researchers: Harry Ostrer, professor of pediatrics and pathology at Albert Einstein College of Medicine in the Bronx, New York, and Karl Skorecki, director of medical and research development at the Rambam Health Care Campus in Haifa. Back in June 2010, and within two days of each other, the two scientists and their research teams published extensive analyses of the genetic origins of the Jewish people and their Near East ancestry. ​

So again, why does it bother you so much?

 

[Coyote]

And just like people like Phoenall claim the Palestinians have no historical or ancestral ties to the area. How he says Palestinians were invented in 1960 something and how they aren't a real people.

I don't think that what Phoenall is saying is the same thing as what Challenger is saying. Let's ask.

Phoenall: Do you believe that the Palestinian people do not have inherent rights to a national self-determination? What would be your criteria for determining who is or who is not eligible for a national self-determination?

I have never once heard Phoenal, Kondor, MJB and several others express support for the Palestinian people for natinal self determination beyond shipping them to Jordan.

Let's also ask the same of Challenger: Do you believe that the Jewish people do not have inherent rights to a national self-determination? What would be your criteria for determining who is or who is not eligible for a national self-determination?

Because that is what the LoN decided was right in 1923, and if that had been enforced fully back then we would not have the situation we face today. I have never once heard any member of team palestine declare that the whole of the land to the west of the Jordan was granted to the Jews as their national home and the arab muslims are there illegally. That the UN overstepped their authority by carving up this land and giving the best of it to the arab muslims along with all the Jewish holy places. I have never seen the members of team palestine admit that Israel is acting in accordance with international laws when they respond to arab muslim violence, terrorism and acts of war.
I do see many saying that the Israelis are apartheid because they wont allow the non citizen arab muslims the vote, and have a two tier legal system in place as demanded by the Geneva conventions. I see team palestine saying the Israelis are guilty of war crimes when the children and civilians forced to act as human shields by hamas are killed.

So basically you feel that the Palestinians don't have the right to self determination - that they should go to Jordan?