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Not too self righteous, are we?
Here's a little parable for you:
No, the root of all evil is people-men and women-disobeying God. Selfishness is merely a symptom of man's alienated state.
Why do we lust RKM? Lust is an uncontrolled craving for making oneself "feel good". How is that not a selfish activity?
Again, it's actually interesting you brought up the 7 deadly sins because every single one is clearly traceable to selfish roots.
Ayup... and one could also argue that anything is traceable to anything within a certain number of degrees. Call it the kevin bacon effect.
Well, if that's the case it should be no problem tracing back greed - for instance - to complete unselfish love for all things.
Can you?
Do you not think it is possible for a man to rise up above this alienated state you describe? To shed his earthly desires. To begin to act as a man with a soul having self-determination to do good or evil, to go against his desires when he wants... to be selfless instead of selfish by will alone?No, the root of all evil is people-men and women-disobeying God. Selfishness is merely a symptom of man's alienated state.
Well, we sort of believe the same thing but in different ways (I think). I'm assuming you're a Christian (but correct me if I'm wrong)?
Jesus's only commandment while here on earth was to love one another. That was the single, one commandment he gave. Loving one another – in its most absolute and pure form – is the polar opposite of selfishness. Since you believe that Jesus is God (and I in a way do too), “disobeying” God would be to act selfishly (and thus, not truly love one another).
.
No dear.
I actually know what a strawman is, and his argument wasn't one.
You on the other hand changed the goalposts when the rest of us were talking about the root of a concept and you cite linguistics, a complete and utter tangent that was completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.
I'll go real slow fer ya, cause you seem nice and lost
The statement "widgets are the root of all evil because they are" is my strawman.
The statement "selfishness is the root of all evil because they are" is the OP's strawman.
As to the root of words in linguistics being a slight deflection. DuhI suppose you could say I was being selfish.
My proof that the very same desires could root from self-less acts, being ignored. Gave me the motive for selfish revenge
Neither of those are strawman arguments.
They are circular reasoning.
Do you know what a strawman is?
yes I do. About time someone figured it out. Yes, I was the one using a strawman to show why the circular argument was false. Guilty. More importantly the discussion has moved somewhat to the metaphysical realm from which said desires actually derive, and away from the argument that all sin is based on selfishness because it is.
Do you not think it is possible for a man to rise up above this alienated state you describe? To shed his earthly desires. To begin to act as a man with a soul having self-determination to do good or evil, to go against his desires when he wants... to be selfless instead of selfish by will alone?No, the root of all evil is people-men and women-disobeying God. Selfishness is merely a symptom of man's alienated state.
Well, we sort of believe the same thing but in different ways (I think). I'm assuming you're a Christian (but correct me if I'm wrong)?
Jesus's only commandment while here on earth was to love one another. That was the single, one commandment he gave. Loving one another – in its most absolute and pure form – is the polar opposite of selfishness. Since you believe that Jesus is God (and I in a way do too), “disobeying” God would be to act selfishly (and thus, not truly love one another).
.
Do you not think it is possible for a man to rise up above this alienated state you describe? To shed his earthly desires. To begin to act as a man with a soul having self-determination to do good or evil, to go against his desires when he wants... to be selfless instead of selfish by will alone?Well, we sort of believe the same thing but in different ways (I think). I'm assuming you're a Christian (but correct me if I'm wrong)?
Jesus's only commandment while here on earth was to love one another. That was the single, one commandment he gave. Loving one another – in its most absolute and pure form – is the polar opposite of selfishness. Since you believe that Jesus is God (and I in a way do too), “disobeying” God would be to act selfishly (and thus, not truly love one another).
.
It is absolutely possible for a man to become totally selfless. Just extremely difficult and requires a person to have complete control over their emotions. I definitely can't speak from experience on this, lol.
Agreed. More to the point, even those that can sometimes fail again and again.
To easy: Greed the desire to accumulate things... love, the deep attraction one has for the companionship provided by another.
Early on children learn that if they want to accumulate things they need to receive things from others. For example, gifts given at christmas. More particularly one finds out that if they are selfless others will be selfless in return showering them with gifts. Thus through learning the greedy learn to be completely unselfish in their love for all things... results in massive accumulation of things.
The more you give the more they and others give back. Aka. the heaven complex.
but also believe our souls are capable of much more, I believe we are capable of doing the extremely difficult.
To easy: Greed the desire to accumulate things... love, the deep attraction one has for the companionship provided by another.
Are you sure youre describing wholly unselfish love here RKM? Deep attraction for companionship? Is that truly selfless or are you instead - seeking companionship to fulfill ones own personal needs?
Early on children learn that if they want to accumulate things they need to receive things from others. For example, gifts given at christmas. More particularly one finds out that if they are selfless others will be selfless in return showering them with gifts. Thus through learning the greedy learn to be completely unselfish in their love for all things... results in massive accumulation of things.
Giving with the EXPECTATION that you will receive something back is definitely, definitely not unselfish love. In your scenario, if the child knew he wasn't going to receive any gifts for HIMSELF, he would never give in the first place! You're describing a selfish activity here; I do X not because it betters the whole but rather because it leads to ME receiving Y for MYSELF.
The more you give the more they and others give back. Aka. the heaven complex.
Children must learn to give with no expectation to receive anything in return. That is true love (because you're truly doing something for someone else and not yourself). And again, selflessness is not giving with the expectation of getting something back.
but also believe our souls are capable of much more, I believe we are capable of doing the extremely difficult.
Why don't you think I believe this as well?
The request was to tie greed... I suppose you could provide the definition of the terms you want me to tie together, rather than me defining and tying them together.
I do believe you think so as well. But, you did leave that part out of the OP.
IOW the true root of all evil is not selfishness, but choosing selfishness over selflessness by will alone vs. merely following biologic desires. I would have been satisfied and agreed with that as the OP's argument. That my friend is true evil. Knowing what you are doing is pure selfishness, knowing it and still doing it. Not just merely following biologic desires, but more to the point, when you realize it's just a biologic desire and you may be harming others by following... yet you do it anyways for your own selfish desire instead of choosing the selfless route.. yeah there you go. IOW you choose to eat steak when you are full anyway and know your neighbor is going hungry that night. Yeah that's evil.
to the universal consciousness. If we can do this, we (through this universal guidance) will know not to consume the water beyond what we need (in the example above). I believe Jesus reached this height, the Buddha, and many others throughout history. The request was to tie greed... I suppose you could provide the definition of the terms you want me to tie together, rather than me defining and tying them together.
Let me clarify. The request is to show unselfish love being the ROOT of someone being greedy. I dont think its possible, by the way.
Its easy to demonstrate that selfishness being at the root of greed; take for instance a man who cares only about making as much money as possible with no regard to the repercussions to others or the whole. Hes accumulating money for the sake of accumulating money (because it gives him pleasure, either from the things he can buy or the power it brings).
But an unselfishly loving man? What would be his purpose to accumulate money for the sake of accumulating money? He would only need EXACTLY as much money it would take to maximize his effectiveness on making the world a better place for all. Greed serves no purpose for this person, because they do not focus on their own personal pleasures.
I do believe you think so as well. But, you did leave that part out of the OP.
IOW the true root of all evil is not selfishness, but choosing selfishness over selflessness by will alone vs. merely following biologic desires. I would have been satisfied and agreed with that as the OP's argument. That my friend is true evil. Knowing what you are doing is pure selfishness, knowing it and still doing it. Not just merely following biologic desires, but more to the point, when you realize it's just a biologic desire and you may be harming others by following... yet you do it anyways for your own selfish desire instead of choosing the selfless route.. yeah there you go. IOW you choose to eat steak when you are full anyway and know your neighbor is going hungry that night. Yeah that's evil.
Ok, so we’re at some common ground here. I think we agree on the general concept. That's cool
But you’re kind of saying that as long as you don’t realize you’re being selfish, then it’s not bad. I don’t think that’s the case. While I think it’s much “eviler” for a person to be wholly aware of his/her selfishness and indulge in it, the person who is ignorant is still doing the world harm.
We may differ here, but I believe that it’s possible – but rare – to transcend the ego (through meditation, spiritual evolution) and elevate your thinking to a higher plane where you are tuned into, and guided (much as Christians say “by the hand of God”
Again, I can’t describe it personally – it’s never happened to me – however these occurrences have been recorded all throughout history in practically every major world culture.
That's easy. When a parents unselfish love to their children results in the child growing up a spoiled brat .. the spoiled brat will go through life greedy for relationships where they are the recipient of unselfish love to their benefit. There needs to be an understanding imbued into the child that the giving and receiving of gifts is reciprocal and earned, not demanded of the giver by the receiver.
That you can consider it possible... means you are on the road. I separate bad decisions from evil decisions. I separate doing harm on accident or by coincidence or ignorance, from doing harm on purpose, perhaps even enjoying the harm done to others for your benefit.
Running over a kid on accident is not the same as doing it on purpose, one is stupid and regretful, the other true evil. Choosing to run over a kid to save yourself.. same thing true evil. Making a selfish choice that in hindsight results in the kid getting run over.. not true evil.
That's easy. When a parents unselfish love to their children results in the child growing up a spoiled brat .. the spoiled brat will go through life greedy for relationships where they are the recipient of unselfish love to their benefit. There needs to be an understanding imbued into the child that the giving and receiving of gifts is reciprocal and earned, not demanded of the giver by the receiver.
Greed – still – in your example is the result of the child being selfish.
Let’s approach it this way. In a world where everyone was selfish, greed could most definitely exist. But can greed exist in a world where everyone was unselfishly loving?
I think the answer to that question is important.
That's easy. When a parents unselfish love to their children results in the child growing up a spoiled brat .. the spoiled brat will go through life greedy for relationships where they are the recipient of unselfish love to their benefit. There needs to be an understanding imbued into the child that the giving and receiving of gifts is reciprocal and earned, not demanded of the giver by the receiver.
Greed – still – in your example is the result of the child being selfish.
Let’s approach it this way. In a world where everyone was selfish, greed could most definitely exist. But can greed exist in a world where everyone was unselfishly loving?
I think the answer to that question is important.
You defined the terms I tied them together. The child's selfishness is the result of the parents unselfish love. Thus unselfish love of one person led to selfishness in another and showing itself in the form of greed and other undesirable traits in the child. IOW the apple got pulled from the tree.
Your new definition is circular. You are asking me if no one is selfish how can anyone be selfish. It's circular.
That you can consider it possible... means you are on the road. I separate bad decisions from evil decisions. I separate doing harm on accident or by coincidence or ignorance, from doing harm on purpose, perhaps even enjoying the harm done to others for your benefit.
Running over a kid on accident is not the same as doing it on purpose, one is stupid and regretful, the other true evil. Choosing to run over a kid to save yourself.. same thing true evil. Making a selfish choice that in hindsight results in the kid getting run over.. not true evil.
But again, although we disagree here a bit, I think we can both agree that we should all strive to live our lives as unselfishly as possible. <Yes, and as you say that is extremely hard.>
That would solve a great deal of the world's problems. <Perhaps, being completely selfless and loving sometimes results in bad things. Sometimes you have to be hard on someone to teach them right from wrong.>
And here’s when the spiritual stuff comes into play; if we had a means to tap into everyone else's consciousness and become One, that would solve ALL of the world's problems.
<Or it would cause the end times when we expose true evil.>
We could see the repercussions of every single one of our actions, and would only take actions that would result in the best outcome for the whole.
<I don't assume that everyone would make good decisions for the whole. Sadly, I think some would choose hell over the heaven you describe.>
Again, is this something I know how to achieve? Absolutely not, lol.
